Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/12/1 Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com We exist, then why should we reject the idea of having been created, just because we are unable to comprehend or define our Creator? Is that not intellectual dishonesty? Why should we have been created in the first place by an intentional act of

Re: Why consciousness is not possible in materialism

2013-12-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/12/1 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/30/2013 7:36 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 4:40 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/30/2013 4:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In fact, materialism cannot explain matter, either. Worst, it avoids trying to explain

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Alberto G. Corona
As I said to Telmo talking about sacrifices somewhere above, individual sacrifices are the only way to create trust among non cloning entities. And what higher sacrifice than to negate'what is screaming in his mind, in the universe and in everithing? That is the main sacrifice of the atheists.

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/12/1 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com As I said to Telmo talking about sacrifices somewhere above, individual sacrifices are the only way to create trust among non cloning entities. And what higher sacrifice than to negate'what is screaming in his mind, in the universe and in

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Alberto G. Corona
If what I said were absurd you would have not responded so quickly and so seriously. Sorry if I offended your faith. That was an experiment. 2013/12/1 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2013/12/1 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com As I said to Telmo talking about sacrifices somewhere

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/12/1 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com If what I said were absurd you would have not responded so quickly and so seriously. Sorry if I offended your faith. That was an experiment. Oh easy to do that, the first to say is... childish. 2013/12/1 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Alberto G. Corona
You know that it is not By the way, I´m glad that you recovered from the punch and adopted the standard superiority mode of atheistic conversation that I find sooo lovely 2013/12/1 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2013/12/1 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com If what I said were

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Nov 2013, at 22:37, meekerdb wrote: I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart,

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/12/1 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com You know that it is not By the way, I´m glad that you recovered from the punch and adopted the standard superiority mode of atheistic conversation that I find sooo lovely Well, you use the standard rethoric... you don't discuss, so... That's

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Nov 2013, at 22:37, meekerdb wrote: I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis,

Re: Why consciousness is not possible in materialism

2013-12-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Nov 2013, at 22:40, meekerdb wrote: On 11/30/2013 4:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In fact, materialism cannot explain matter, either. Worst, it avoids trying to explain it at the start. It's not worse, it's logic. Whatever is taken as fundamental in a theory is not something

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Nov 2013, at 23:33, meekerdb wrote: On 11/30/2013 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Brent, I hope you don't mind I re-answer this. On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote: I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich,

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Nov 2013, at 23:33, meekerdb wrote: On 11/30/2013 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Brent, I hope you don't mind I re-answer this. On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote: I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Dec 2013, at 08:45, Samiya Illias wrote: We exist, OK. then why should we reject the idea of having been created, Or of having a non physical origin. creation involves the idea of someone doing something with something, and so that idea take some something for granted, and so

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 01 Dec 2013, at 08:45, Samiya Illias wrote: We exist, OK. then why should we reject the idea of having been created, Or of having a non physical origin. creation involves the idea of someone doing something with something, and so that

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Dec 2013, at 09:51, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Nov 2013, at 22:37, meekerdb wrote: I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, Anat,

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Dec 2013, at 11:01, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Nov 2013, at 23:33, meekerdb wrote: On 11/30/2013 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Brent, I hope you don't mind I re-answer this. On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote: I can conceive

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 01 Dec 2013, at 09:51, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Nov 2013, at 22:37, meekerdb wrote: I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich,

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Dec 2013, at 11:10, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Is that not intellectual dishonesty? It is dishonesty only when an alternative religion is proposed and presented not as a religion, but as scientific facts. Atheists are not honest, because by denying a God or all God, they replace it

Some basic principles of Leibniz's Idealism

2013-12-01 Thread Roger Clough
Some basic principles of Leibniz's Idealism 1. Everything that exists has two aspects, essence (mind or monad) and existent (object). This is a localized version of Berkeley's overall Idealism. Essence, being mental, is outside of spacetime while the existent (a corporeal body) is

A conjecture- Quantum physics, Relativity and Leibniz's Idealism

2013-12-01 Thread Roger Clough
A conjecture: Quantum physics, Relativity and Leibniz's Idealism According to Leibniz's Idealism, everything that exists has two aspects, 1, essence (mind or monad or what we here conjecture is a quantum wave), which is outside of spacetime, and 2. existent (physical particle or

Re: A conjecture- Quantum physics, Relativity and Leibniz's Idealism

2013-12-01 Thread spudboy100
Dr. Clough: 1, essence (mind or monad or what we here conjecture is a quantum wave), which is outside of spacetime Do you, personally, define spacetime, as the Hubble Volume? I like substance dualism, and I also like quantum dualism, more, precisely. Do you envision an infinite field of

Re: Online opinions of Dennett and Chalmers-- the clueless two

2013-12-01 Thread Jesse Mazer
Chalmers a materialist? That seems like a pretty bizarre and/or uninformed description, given that the idea he is best-known for is that the hard problem of first-person qualia can never be solved by materialist explanations (even if the so-called easy problem of explaining third-person behaviors,

Babies Have Self-Awareness From The Minute They're Born

2013-12-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
Babies Have Self-Awareness From The Minute They're Born http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/22/babies-self-awareness_n_4323481.html By: By Stephanie Pappas, Senior Writer Published: 11/21/2013 12:10 PM EST on LiveScience With their uncoordinated movements and unfocused eyes, newborns

Re: Online opinions of Dennett and Chalmers-- the clueless two

2013-12-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
By materialist, he really means atheist or non-Christian. On Sunday, December 1, 2013 12:04:50 PM UTC-5, jessem wrote: Chalmers a materialist? That seems like a pretty bizarre and/or uninformed description, given that the idea he is best-known for is that the hard problem of first-person

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Dec 2013, at 12:32, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 01 Dec 2013, at 09:51, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Nov 2013, at 22:37, meekerdb wrote: I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken),

Re: Online opinions of Dennett and Chalmers-- the clueless two

2013-12-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Dec 2013, at 18:04, Jesse Mazer wrote: Chalmers a materialist? That seems like a pretty bizarre and/or uninformed description, given that the idea he is best-known for is that the hard problem of first-person qualia can never be solved by materialist explanations (even if the

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 01 Dec 2013, at 12:32, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 01 Dec 2013, at 09:51, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Nov 2013, at 22:37, meekerdb wrote: I can

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread LizR
On 30 November 2013 05:02, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Liz, I disagree. The atheists say the definition of Earth (God) in the sacred text is an infinite plane (fairy tale). We know there is no infinite plane below us, (we disbelief fairy tales) thus we correct our theory of Earth

How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread Roger Clough
How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How silly. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough --- This email is free from viruses

How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread Roger Clough
How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How silly. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough --- This email is free from viruses

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread LizR
Because there are no obvious signs of government in the universe, I would say. On 2 December 2013 10:29, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: How can a grown man be an atheist ? An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can function without some form of government. How

Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?

2013-12-01 Thread LizR
On 30 November 2013 12:04, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Thanks for the explanations. Ok, I think I now understand why dark matter is the best hypothesis. It is, to date. Neverthless, you would have been quite correct had it been the anomaly in the orbit of Mercury that you

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 10:37 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Because there are no obvious signs of government in the universe, I would say. I agree. People underestimate the complexity that can arise from multiplying simple behaviours by many entities. Here's a beautiful example:

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread LizR
Nice video! Yes even Fred Hoyle fell down on understanding what's possible with simple rules and a large number of iterations. On 2 December 2013 10:59, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 10:37 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Because there are no obvious

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread LizR
On 30 November 2013 03:58, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote: 1) Atheists say: Prove to me your existence and I will trust you. God says: Trust me and I will prove to you my existence. Agnostic says: Trust me, neither of you can prove or show the other anything at

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Government by the Rule of Law (of physics) I would say. There is much much in the relation between the republican idea of society, and pragmatical atheism of the contractualists Hobbes, rousseau, Locke (let the state work without religion), that later became ideological (atheism is the religion

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread LizR
Agnosticism should be the religion of the state. On 2 December 2013 11:33, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: Government by the Rule of Law (of physics) I would say. There is much much in the relation between the republican idea of society, and pragmatical atheism of the

How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread Jesse Mazer
Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any other necessary truths, which for theists might include things like moral rules, or qualities of God such as

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: Government by the Rule of Law (of physics) I would say. Ok, but here I think government is meant as some pre-existing complexity. While the laws of physics are simpler than their outcome, the christian god is more

Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?

2013-12-01 Thread Richard Ruquist
Liz, There are 7 other repeatable observations explained by dark matter. From wiki-dark matter - 3.1 Galaxy rotation curveshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter#Galaxy_rotation_curves - 3.2 Velocity dispersions of

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread Jesse Mazer
To add to my last comment, the article at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-modal/ mentions that Leibniz was among those philosophers who distinguished between necessary and contingent truths, and only granted God the power to change contingent ones. Here's a relevant bit from the article:

Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?

2013-12-01 Thread LizR
Thanks, that's an impressive list. I'd be rather surprised if bolt-on extras to GR can explain all those. On 2 December 2013 12:43, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Liz, There are 7 other repeatable observations explained by dark matter. From wiki-dark matter - 3.1 Galaxy

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread LizR
On 2 December 2013 12:51, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: To add to my last comment, the article at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-modal/ mentions that Leibniz was among those philosophers who distinguished between necessary and contingent truths, and only granted God the

Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?

2013-12-01 Thread Richard Ruquist
Can you explain what you mean by 'bolt-on extras to GR'? On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 7:18 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks, that's an impressive list. I'd be rather surprised if bolt-on extras to GR can explain all those. On 2 December 2013 12:43, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com

Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?

2013-12-01 Thread LizR
Ad hoc modifications to our existing theories. Although it looks like it's actually bolt-on extras to Newtonian gravitation... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOND On 2 December 2013 14:33, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Can you explain what you mean by 'bolt-on extras to GR'? --

Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?

2013-12-01 Thread LizR
I should have said that by ad hoc I mean with no, or little, theoretical justification. That is, adjusting the threoy to fit the data, but with for no compelling theoretical justification. On 2 December 2013 15:42, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Ad hoc modifications to our existing theories.

Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?

2013-12-01 Thread Richard Ruquist
MOND is an alternative explanation that replaces Dark Matter by modifying gravity. Dark Matter results when gravity is not modified. (pure Newtonian) IMO John Moffat has a much better mod-gravity theory http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0506021.pdf wiki-Moffat: He proposes a variable speed of

Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?

2013-12-01 Thread LizR
On 2 December 2013 16:16, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: MOND is an alternative explanation that replaces Dark Matter by modifying gravity. Yes (hence the flippant remark about bolt on extras) Dark Matter results when gravity is not modified. (pure Newtonian) Or rather

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread meekerdb
On 11/30/2013 11:45 PM, Samiya Illias wrote: We exist, then why should we reject the idea of having been created, Because we discovered that we evolved? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group

Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?

2013-12-01 Thread Richard Ruquist
Moffat even does away with renormalization. The acid test was to be the fine structure constant being time dependent. But that was not repeatable for a south hemisphere telescope whose name I forget. The two Keck Telescopes were built at Litton ITEK in Lexington, MA where I worked for a few

Re: Why consciousness is not possible in materialism

2013-12-01 Thread meekerdb
On 12/1/2013 12:12 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: but there is no known proof (or even an argument offered by materialists) that matter cannot be explained in terms of something simpler. Of course not. That would the point the it's fundamental. The point of Jason if I may, is

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Samiya Illias
Evolution is also a part of creation! The origin of creation, the perpetuation of creation, the process of procreation, and the selection of creation are all part of the continuous grand act of creation! Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 9:17 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread meekerdb
On 12/1/2013 12:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Nov 2013, at 22:37, meekerdb wrote: I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares,

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread Samiya Illias
This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God? We believe that God is the Reality, the Prime Originator, the Sustainer, and the Final Goal. Everything is as God wills and allows it to be. Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 4:13 AM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: Most

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread meekerdb
On 12/1/2013 1:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Nov 2013, at 23:33, meekerdb wrote: On 11/30/2013 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Brent, I hope you don't mind I re-answer this. On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote: I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread meekerdb
On 12/1/2013 3:32 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: As such, you should restrain from using that word, it's useless. What term would you suggest? What about ultimate reality ? Because that's what you say it means... It's neutral, does not have all the connotations linked with the word

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread meekerdb
On 12/1/2013 3:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It is dishonesty only when an alternative religion is proposed and presented not as a religion, but as scientific facts. Atheists are not honest, because by denying a God or all God, they replace it without saying by another

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread meekerdb
On 12/1/2013 10:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Using God for the ultimate reality, it seems to me, can in the long run enlarge the listening and the understanding of what the machines are already telling us. Not as much as using ultimate reality for ultimate reality. One must suspect you have

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread meekerdb
Ok. But evolution works to 'create' without a creator. Brent On 12/1/2013 9:00 PM, Samiya Illias wrote: Evolution is also a part of creation! The origin of creation, the perpetuation of creation, the process of procreation, and the selection of creation are all part of the continuous grand

Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?

2013-12-01 Thread meekerdb
On 12/1/2013 7:35 PM, LizR wrote: On 2 December 2013 16:16, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com mailto:yann...@gmail.com wrote: MOND is an alternative explanation that replaces Dark Matter by modifying gravity. Yes (hence the flippant remark about bolt on extras) Dark Matter results

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread meekerdb
On 12/1/2013 9:11 PM, Samiya Illias wrote: This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God? We believe that God is the Reality, the Prime Originator, the Sustainer, and the Final Goal. Everything is as God wills and allows it to be. That's what you say you believe. But is there any

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread meekerdb
On 12/1/2013 10:30 PM, Samiya Illias wrote: That is simply because the system of evolution is perfectly designed by whoever designed it. I believe the 'whoever' to be God. Evolution is designed, it's a simple consequence of random variation and it's consequences for reproduction. That's why

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-12-01 Thread Richard Ruquist
Actually Crick designed the perfect means for DNA replication (I think that was it) without any errors long before it was established empirically. When experimenters finally discovered how nature did it, it turned out that nature's method produced occasional errors. So the system of evolution is

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013-12-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Dec 2013, at 00:13, Jesse Mazer wrote: Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, Yes. After St-Thomas, most catholic theologian agree that God cannot make 17 into a composite number. God obeys