RE: everything list note :)

2014-01-17 Thread Chris de Morsella
Mostly lurking here. and have off and on for years Love some of the ideas floating here and the discussions; it can flow fast and furious here. keeping up is like a full-time job lol Recently from time to time I have been poking in; hope you don't mind me; perhaps on occasion I can bring a

Re: Retiring the universe

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 17:30, Gabriel Bodeen wrote: Amanda Gefter wrote: More importantly, it could offer us a better conceptual grasp of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics defies understanding because it allows things to hover in superpositions of mutually exclusive states, like when a

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 15:08, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Stephen, Bruno and I agree on this one, our usually imagined space is completely a construction of our minds. That is fundamental to my theory. I explain in detail how it happens in my new topic post Another shot at how spacetime emerges

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 15:10, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Chris, Reality itself is doing the computing... The aspect of reality called 'happening' drives it... Thanks to the Church's thesis, computing is a simple conceptual notion, like being prime or even. reality is the mystery, not computing.

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Computer Science

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 15:18, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, Let me first say that I share your opinion of physicalism! My point is that it is the only opinion available to any self- referentially correct machines (believing in rationality and some amount of occam (the amount needed

Re: On the nature and existence of many non computational things

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
Dear Stephen, On 16 Jan 2014, at 15:11, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, I would like to start a new thread to discuss the nature and existence of the many non computational things that you have mentioned in your posts. See my explanation of the phi_i to Liz. (on FOAR, I think).

Re: The Singularity Institute Blog

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 15:52, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 16, 2014, at 5:42 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 03:46, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:33 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: A long, rambling but often interesting discussion

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 16:11, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 16, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Jason, Could you be more specific about why you are skeptical of p- zombies? I have my reasons to disbelieve in them, but I am curious as to your

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 17:49, Jason Resch wrote: It cannot lie by definition! What is your definition of lie? You are using the very general definition: communicate the false. But that is not a lie in Stephen sense: Consciously failing someone. Your argument against zombie still go

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 18:27, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: The simplest and by far most likely answer is to assume that the world we appear to live in IS the real actual world Maybe. But it could be argued that if the ability to

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/17 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 16 Jan 2014, at 18:27, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: The simplest and by far most likely answer is to assume that the world we appear to live in IS the real actual world Maybe. But

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 18:53, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 11:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:58 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:05 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Hyper determinism makes little sense as a serious theory to me. Why should particle

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 19:00, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 12:11 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 16 January 2014 16:26, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: The computational metaphor in the sense of the brain works like the Intel CPU inside the box on your desk is clearly misleading, but

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 19:04, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 12:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The body does not produces consciousness, it only make it possible for consciousness to forget the higher self, and deludes us (in some sense) in having a little ego embedded in some history. Sounds

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 19:10, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:40, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And the answer is yes, he would know that, but not immediately. So it would not change the indeterminacy, as he will

Re: My usual crossword challenge

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
On 17 January 2014 18:52, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: but usually I find cryptic crosswords infuriating :). Of course, otherwise I wouldn't be doing my job! The question is whether or not you find that fun. To quote some of my regular solvers delicious torment awaits! --

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 19:18, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 12:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:44, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:39, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 10:29, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: Retiring the universe

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 19:40, LizR wrote: I must admit I thought the MWI had already retired the universe. Hmm... Physicists replace it with a multiverse, which is a new form of a Universe. But with comp even the multiverse might need to retire, at least as a fundamental primitive reality.

Re: The Singularity Institute Blog

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 20:12, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 3:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 03:46, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:33 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: A long, rambling but often interesting discussion among guys at MIRI about how to

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 21:27, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Edgar, The closest thing that I can comprehend that might line up with your ideas of a abstract dimensionLESS computational space is a Hilbert space. + unitary evolution. But arithmetic is far simpler, conceptually, and less

[no subject]

2014-01-17 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Is it a coincidence that: -During the cold war the image of the universe and the theory that explained it was an inmense nuclear explosion? -In the world dominated by the multicultural ideology and computers, it is a multiverse and/or a computer simulation the preferred paradigm? That is not

On the meaning of men thinking about ultimate reality

2014-01-17 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Is it a coincidence that: -During the cold war the image of the universe and the theory that explained it was an inmense nuclear explosion? -In the world dominated by the multicultural ideology and computers, it is a multiverse and/or a computer simulation the preferred paradigm? That is not

Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
All, This has nothing to do with consciousness, but it may have something to do with the origin of free will. Edgar Discovery of quantum vibrations in microtubules inside brain neurons corroborates controversial 20-year-old theory of consciousnessJanuary 16, 2014 *[+]*

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, Of course you can calculate the radius of a sphere (in this case a 4-dimensional hypersphere) from the curvature of that sphere. Just make the assumption the universe is a hypersphere and then what's the formula to calculate the radius from the curvature? And don't tell me it's not a

Re: everything list note :)

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Chris, Yes, that's my concept of what I call the Uni-Verse! It's certainly a valid way of looking at reality. If everything is pure abstract information continually being computed that information can be taken as music in which case the entire Uni-Verse is playing music, or rather IS music

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Bruno, Of course I assume ALL established science, QM, SR, GR and all the rest, always subject to correction and improvement of the science of course. But I maintain it is all being computed at a more fundamental level by active computational process of pure abstract information. BUT I

Re: On the meaning of men thinking about ultimate reality

2014-01-17 Thread Alberto G. Corona
And At the peak of the great inflation, in the year 1980, the inflationary theory of the universe was born: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_(cosmology) inflation in US by year and month: 19828.39 % 7.62 % 6.78 % 6.51 % 6.68 % 7.06 % 6.44 % 5.85 % 5.04 % 5.14 %

Re: The Singularity Institute Blog

2014-01-17 Thread Gabriel Bodeen
On Friday, January 17, 2014 5:14:13 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: To be franc, I don't believe in super-intelligence. I do believe in super-competence, relative to some domain, but as I have explained from time to time, competence has a negative feedback on intelligence. Intelligence is a

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 22:31, LizR wrote: Everything else I've said on this subject has been in response to people trying to argue that physics is not time symmetric. So far all such arguments have been a variant on the second law says so and my response has been a variant on the second law

Re: The Singularity Institute Blog

2014-01-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 4:06:19 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 05:33, meekerdb wrote: A long, rambling but often interesting discussion among guys at MIRI about how to make an AI that is superintelligent but not dangerous (FAI=Friendly AI). Here's an amusing

Re: The Singularity Institute Blog

2014-01-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, January 17, 2014 6:14:13 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 20:12, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 3:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The singularity is in the past, and is the discovery of the universal machine. In a sense, we can make it only more stupid, like when

Sum of all natural numbers = -1/12?

2014-01-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
http://sploid.gizmodo.com/the-sum-of-1-2-3-4-5-until-infinity-is-so-1503066071 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-17 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 7:46 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: This has nothing to do with consciousness, but it may have something to do with the origin of free will. It's just amazing how many philosophers can devote so much time and effort trying to figure out the origin of free

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Stephen, Your argument is fine. It's standard GR. BUT for the nth time it's talking about CLOCK TIME simultaneity, rather than the present moment of p-time. It still doesn't seem to register that there is a difference even though the fact of the twins meeting with different clock times in the

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 22:01, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 16 Jan 2014, at 10:28, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: On

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/17 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net Stephen, Your argument is fine. It's standard GR. BUT for the nth time it's talking about CLOCK TIME simultaneity, rather than the present moment of p-time. It still doesn't seem to register that there is a difference even though the fact of the

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Quentin, No, not at all. They are NOT at the same spacetime coordinates because their clock time t values are different. Only if their clocktime t values as well as their x,y,z values were the same would they be at the same spacetime coordinates. I hate to say it but that is quite obvious

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
John, I agree completely that free will must be well defined before it can be intelligently discussed, and I agree that the usual definitions are often nonsensical. (Particularly the notion that free will is the ability of some higher self to override base instinctual desires.) I give a

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 23:14, LizR wrote: Or rather timeless? (Of course comp does that, with Platonia!) I agree this is the sort of ontology we should look for, which is one reason I find comp attractive even if I don't follow it all (but Bruno has promised to give more lessons!) Yes, on

Anesthesia

2014-01-17 Thread John Clark
Anesthetic chemicals temporally destroy consciousness, and 115 years about Meyer and Overton discovered a strong correlation between how potent a chemical anesthesia was and how well it dissolves oils and lipids (fats and waxes). Even today the reason for this connection is unclear but it still

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/17 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net Quentin, No, not at all. They are NOT at the same spacetime coordinates Yes they are... because their clock time t values are different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinate_time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_time Quentin Only if

Re: Tegmark and consciousness

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 00:01, John Mikes wrote: ...just take the 'infinite' seriously. That's a wise suggestion. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 01:28, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 16 January 2014 23:08, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 09:11, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 16 January 2014 16:26, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: The computational metaphor in the sense of the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-17 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: I give a coherent definition of free will in my book on Reality. Free will is simply the fact that some bounded system generates actions that are not entirely determined by its environmental inputs. OK, then the term

Re: Anesthesia

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
John, One possible reason for the loss of consciousness I've proposed is it simply stops the internal time sense. The other possibility of course is that it disables the specific self-referential circuits that tell an organism what it is experiencing and doing... Edgar On Friday, January

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
John, I give a fairly detailed answer to what quantum randomness is and what it applies to in my New Topic post Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality. Basically nature must choose randomly when it aligns the separate spacetime networks that arise from particle

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 01:34, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 17 January 2014 01:17, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 16, 2014, at 2:11 AM, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 January 2014 16:26, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: The computational

Re: Anesthesia

2014-01-17 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote One possible reason for the loss of consciousness I've proposed is it simply stops the internal time sense. The other possibility of course is that it disables the specific self-referential circuits that tell an

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 01:43, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 6:42 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 January 2014 13:34, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: I meant that if the physics of the brain is computable it follows as a straighforward deduction that it

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Quentin, Yes, I understand this. But they are clearly not at the same clock time coordinates. So called 'coordinate time' is basically an accounting trick that relativity uses to d make sense of the problems I point out without realizing the real implications of those problems, namely that

Re: Anesthesia

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
John, There are thousands of chemicals that are good organic solvents that aren't anesthetics. I don't think that has anything to do with it... Edgar On Friday, January 17, 2014 12:19:25 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Edgar L. Owen edga...@att.netjavascript:

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 01:49, LizR wrote: On 17 January 2014 13:43, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 6:42 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 January 2014 13:34, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: I meant that if the physics of the brain is

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/17 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net Quentin, Yes, I understand this. But they are clearly not at the same clock time coordinates. So called 'coordinate time' is basically an accounting trick that relativity uses to d make sense of the problems I point out without realizing the real

Re: Tegmark and consciousness

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 01:51, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 13 January 2014 02:23, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 12 Jan 2014, at 06:21, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: I'm a lump of dumb matter arranged in a special way and I am conscious, I think this is misleading. Are you really

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 02:00, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 17 January 2014 11:43, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 6:42 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 January 2014 13:34, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: I meant that if the physics

Re: Sum of all natural numbers = -1/12?

2014-01-17 Thread Alberto G. Corona
That is absolutely wrong. Everyone know that the result is 42 ;) 2014/1/17, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com: http://sploid.gizmodo.com/the-sum-of-1-2-3-4-5-until-infinity-is-so-1503066071 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group.

Re: Sum of all natural numbers = -1/12?

2014-01-17 Thread Alberto G. Corona
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Thought_(The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy)#Deep_Thought 2014/1/17, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com: That is absolutely wrong. Everyone know that the result is 42 ;) 2014/1/17, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com:

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 02:05, LizR wrote: I just can't imagine how a programme could imitate a person convincingly for a long time without being conscious. Just a question: when we dream of people, we attribute consciousness to the people at the time we dream, in the dream. They can be very

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 02:17, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 17 January 2014 12:07, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 January 2014 14:00, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: At least *weak* AI would be possible. Weak AI means computers could do everything we do but without

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 03:11, LizR wrote: On 17 January 2014 14:17, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: Historically, AI researchers did not consider the question of whether a computer that behaves intelligently was conscious, on the assumption that intelligence was observable while

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Quentin, No. If you think so called 'coordinate time' is a real kind of time then how do you measure it? You can't, it's just a calculation, a way of calculating things from theoretical frames. Clock time is the only real kind of relativistic time because it's the only kind of time that is

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Quentin Anciaux
As your P-Time is not measurable either and solve nothing else than coordinate time does... it is useless... The twin can meet because they are at the same coordinates in the same reference frame... you don't need unexistant universal present time which is refuted by SR for that. Quentin

Re: Sum of all natural numbers = -1/12?

2014-01-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
Adams wasn't the only one to figure it out... http://www.amazon.com/Prayer-Kabbalist-42-Letter-Name-God/dp/1571895752 :) I forget how many times you have to say DEMOGORGON before he is summoned. On Friday, January 17, 2014 12:45:22 PM UTC-5, Alberto G.Corona wrote:

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, January 17, 2014 1:03:15 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Jan 2014, at 03:11, LizR wrote: On 17 January 2014 14:17, Stathis Papaioannou stat...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Historically, AI researchers did not consider the question of whether a computer that behaves

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, January 17, 2014 11:30:16 AM UTC-5, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Quentin, No, not at all. They are NOT at the same spacetime coordinates because their clock time t values are different. Only if their clocktime t values as well as their x,y,z values were the same would they be at the

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Computer Science

2014-01-17 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, I was not clear. Let me try again. On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 4:24 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 15:18, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, Let me first say that I share your opinion of physicalism! My point is that it is the only opinion

Re: Tegmark and consciousness

2014-01-17 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, There is a movie Surrogateshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogates_(film), that involves the ability to rest a body in far away locations or for specific events/jobs/dates, just as we would rest a car. You might enjoy it. I did. :-) On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 12:36 PM, Bruno Marchal

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 08:55, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 17 January 2014 10:01, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: You can disagree, but it's a fact, we can make video game, so we can make any rules we want in the created virtual worlds, nothing

Re: everything list note :)

2014-01-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
At least the music metaphor has aesthetic appreciation, performance, and an audience. Information/computation has none of those things unless we arbitrarily add them. Craig On Friday, January 17, 2014 4:10:50 AM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote: Mostly lurking hereā€¦ and have off and on for years

Re: Tegmark and consciousness

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 07:10, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 4:55 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 13 January 2014 04:42, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: I'm a lump of dumb matter arranged in a special way and I am conscious, so I don't see why another lump of dumb matter

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 04:44, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear LizR, But stop and think of the implications of what even Bruno is saying. Space is completely a construction of our minds. There is no 3,1 dimensional Riemannian manifold out there. We measure events and our minds put those

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 05:10, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of LizR Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:21 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from

Re: Sum of all natural numbers = -1/12?

2014-01-17 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Google can not lie you: https://www.google.es/search?q=the+answer+to+life%2C+universe+and+everythingoq=the+answer+to+life%2C+universe+and+everythingaqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.402j0j9sourceid=chromeespv=210es_sm=93ie=UTF-8#q=answer+to+life+the+universe+and+everything 2014/1/17, Craig Weinberg

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 04:44, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear LizR, But stop and think of the implications of what even Bruno is saying. *Space is completely a construction of our minds.* *There is no 3,1

Re: Anesthesia

2014-01-17 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 12:23 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: There are thousands of chemicals that are good organic solvents that aren't anesthetics. I don't think that has anything to do with it... Why do you think some people like to inhale cleaning products or airplane glue

Re: Tegmark and consciousness

2014-01-17 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, I think that you are setting up a false dichotomy with the notion of a finite unique physical universe in Step 8 of the UDA! In my thinking each and every observer has its own unique finite unique physical universe (thus each 1p is unique and FPI follows from the inability to

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-17 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: I give a fairly detailed answer to what quantum randomness is [...] Basically nature must choose randomly So randomness is random. when it aligns the separate spacetime networks I don't see how bringing in spacetime

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 12:46, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, 17 January 2014, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 19:00, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 12:11 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 16 January 2014 16:26, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: The

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, You wrote: Physics emerges from the FPI on UD*. It is an open question if there is a winner program, but empirically we can bet that the winner, if it exists, can emulate a quantum universal machine. But it might be a quantum universal machine + an oracle, or a quantum machine

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Stephen Paul King
Another take is : http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0403031 Deriving laws from ordering relations Kevin H. Knuth http://arxiv.org/find/physics/1/au:+Knuth_K/0/1/0/all/0/1 (Submitted on 3 Mar 2004) The effect of Richard T. Cox's contribution to probability theory was to generalize Boolean implication

Re: On the meaning of men thinking about ultimate reality

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 13:34, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Is it a coincidence that: -During the cold war the image of the universe and the theory that explained it was an inmense nuclear explosion? -In the world dominated by the multicultural ideology and computers, it is a multiverse and/or a

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 14:17, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Bruno, Of course I assume ALL established science, QM, SR, GR and all the rest, always subject to correction and improvement of the science of course. You assume a primitive physical reality? But I maintain it is all being computed at

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 10:13, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 17 Jan 2014, at 14:17, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Bruno, Of course I assume ALL established science, QM, SR, GR and all the rest, always subject to correction and improvement of the science of course. You assume a primitive

Re:

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 01:32, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: Is it a coincidence that: -During the cold war the image of the universe and the theory that explained it was an inmense nuclear explosion? Obviously there is a connection. Without the theories of nuclear physics you

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread meekerdb
On 1/17/2014 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I agree that zombies do not make a lot of sense ... assuming comp. But if we forget all assumptions, the concept of zombie makes logical sense. It is someone behaving like you and me, but which happens to lack consciousness. I think your argument

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

2014-01-17 Thread meekerdb
On 1/17/2014 2:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 19:04, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 12:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The body does not produces consciousness, it only make it possible for consciousness to forget the higher self, and deludes us (in some sense) in having a little

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread meekerdb
On 1/17/2014 2:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that comes from your assumption that belief=provable UDA does not use that assumption. And AUDA uses only the assumption that you believe in what PA can prove That is provable=believed. , and that you are willing to be cautious on believing

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
On 17 January 2014 18:03, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Briefly, computationalism is the idea that you could replace the brain with a Turing machine and you would preserve the mind. This would not be possible if there is non-computable physics in the brain, Just to clarify, as I

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
John, How about reading my new topic post on another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality that explains it before commenting? I think you missed the context of the first of this thread where that was referenced... Edgar On Friday, January 17, 2014 3:06:12 PM UTC-5, John

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-17 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Bruno, Stop trying to put words in my mouth and don't tell me what I can or can't assume. I can assume anything I want and if it works then that's good evidence the assumption was valid... Edgar On Friday, January 17, 2014 4:13:43 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Jan 2014, at

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 5:04 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 January 2014 18:03, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Briefly, computationalism is the idea that you could replace the brain with a Turing machine and you would preserve the mind. This would not be possible if there is

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
On 17 January 2014 20:55, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2014/1/16 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 17 January 2014 10:01, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: You can disagree, but it's a fact, we can make video game, so we can make any rules we want in the created virtual

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
I hope I will be able to clarify, after explaining the modal logic, why comp put maximal constraints on the physical law, making all the rest different instantiations of those laws. I will be very interested to know why this is so, assuming my brain can handle it. A lot of people have

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread John Mikes
Stathis and List: from time to time it is useful to recall what we are thinking behind 'words'. Is the *'brain'* as used in this exchange indeed* 'brainfunction'*? (ref. to functionalism vs computationalism) To 'preserve *mind*' begs the question how it is differentiated in this exchange? Then

Re:

2014-01-17 Thread meekerdb
On 1/17/2014 4:32 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: For me the deepest question is not what is true about the ultimate reality. That is a question that never ever can be answered without faith. I always find it amusing that whatever question science cannot (yet?) answer, there is someone who will

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:08 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 22:01, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 16 Jan 2014, at 10:28, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Bruno

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-17 Thread meekerdb
It doesn't mean anything. There are microtubles in all cells. So why don't I think with my penis...oh...never mind. :-) Brent On 1/17/2014 4:46 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: All, This has nothing to do with consciousness, but it may have something to do with the origin of free will. Edgar

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear John, I invite your comment on a statement and question: *There is not observable difference between X is non-computable and there does not exist sufficient resources to complete the computation of Y.* Are X and Y effectively the same thing, everything else being equal? If there is a

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 11:16, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 5:04 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 January 2014 18:03, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Briefly, computationalism is the idea that you could replace the brain with a Turing machine and

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 11:39, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear John, I invite your comment on a statement and question: *There is not observable difference between X is non-computable and there does not exist sufficient resources to complete the computation of Y.*

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