Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 19:51, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 10:18 PM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 19:12, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But where does it exist? X has to be conscious of a location, a physics, etc. If all this is the same as where I exist, then

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 20:35, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 11:03 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:55 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 10:23 PM, Jason Resch wrote: If mathematical statements are true independent of anything else then

Re: Sum of all natural numbers = -1/12?

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
It was that wonderful Indian mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujan who first came up with the proof in 1913. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramanujan_summation -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and

Re: The Singularity Institute Blog

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 16:44, Craig Weinberg wrote: The whole point of a super intelligent AI is that it has nothing to learn from us. We certainly disagree a lot on this. I think that the more you are intelligent, the more you can learn from others, any others, even from bacteria and

Re: The Singularity Institute Blog

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 04:47, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday, January 17, 2014 6:14:13 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 20:12, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 3:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The singularity is in the past, and is the discovery of the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 17:57, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: I give a coherent definition of free will in my book on Reality. Free will is simply the fact that some bounded system generates actions that are not entirely determined

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 18:04, Edgar L. Owen wrote: John, I give a fairly detailed answer to what quantum randomness is and what it applies to in my New Topic post Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality. You did not answer the argument that there is no computational

Mapping the heart of darkness

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
This is quite awesome, and I mean that in its real sense rather than the cheap sense it's thrown around nowadays. 50 years ago ... they asked what are quasars? Now we are mapping the property of Sagitarius A, the supermassive black hole at the centre of our galaxy, by tracing the orbits of stars

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 19:18, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, January 17, 2014 1:03:15 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Jan 2014, at 03:11, LizR wrote: On 17 January 2014 14:17, Stathis Papaioannou stat...@gmail.com wrote: Historically, AI researchers did not consider the question of

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Computer Science

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 19:24, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, I was not clear. Let me try again. On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 4:24 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 15:18, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, Let me first say that I share your opinion of

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 23:03, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 2:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that comes from your assumption that belief=provable UDA does not use that assumption. And AUDA uses only the assumption that you believe in what PA can prove That is provable=believed. That is

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 23:35, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:08 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 22:01, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be snip And, in AUDA,

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Jan 2014, at 00:13, LizR wrote: Indeed it would be very strange, perhaps verging on miraculous. I believe just the nuclear resonance discovered by Hoyle alone is already incredibly fine tuned, after which we have the amazing properties of carbon and water, and the cosmological

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Jan 2014, at 04:55, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 3:13 PM, LizR wrote: Indeed it would be very strange, perhaps verging on miraculous. I believe just the nuclear resonance discovered by Hoyle alone is already incredibly fine tuned, after which we have the amazing properties of

Re: Sum of all natural numbers = -1/12?

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
Alberto, What is amusing is that Ramanujan said this (that 1+2+3+... = -1/12) in a letter to find a job in England, just to illustrate that he was not bad in computing. He was of course considered as crackpot until the letter was given to Hardy, who recognized immediately the genius.

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 20:38, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 04:44, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear LizR, But stop and think of the implications of what even Bruno is saying. Space is

Re: Tegmark and consciousness

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 21:01, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, I think that you are setting up a false dichotomy with the notion of a finite unique physical universe in Step 8 of the UDA! In my thinking each and every observer has its own unique finite unique physical universe Why?

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Jan 2014, at 01:01, Russell Standish wrote: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:10:23PM +1300, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 11:34, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: It doesn't mean anything. There are microtubles in all cells. So why don't I think with my penis...oh...never mind. :-)

Re: Sum of all natural numbers = -1/12?

2014-01-18 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Amazing. That means that there are much left to discover in math. And also note that: 1/12 = 2/24 and 24= flip 42 for some well known flip : N - N ;) 2014/1/18, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: Alberto, What is amusing is that Ramanujan said this (that 1+2+3+... = -1/12) in a letter to

Re:

2014-01-18 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Yes; I know. Unfortunately, as is often the case, I have no time to reply with the attention that it deserves. 2014/1/18, LizR lizj...@gmail.com: Hi Alberto i think your basic point came across even if the post was unfinished. I have attempted to reply to it above. -- You received this

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Natural selection can favour ‘irrational’ behaviour J. M. McNamara1, P. C. Trimmer2 and A. I. Houston2 1School of Mathematics, University of Bristol, University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TW, UK 2School of Biological Sciences, University of Bristol, Woodland Road, Bristol BS8 1UG, UK e-mail:

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Craig, I think you are late to the discussion and missed some of my previous posts. First the present moment of p-time is directly OBSERVABLE. It's the most basic observation of our existence from birth to death. That is undeniable, and direct observation is the foundation of all scientific

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Jason, Bent and LizR, This conversation is getting interesting! On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 1:23 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:12 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 8:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:16

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, First, there are NO possibilities in the future. The future does not exist and thus there is no content that can ascribed to it. What we have is the problem of how nature is to align separate spacetime fragments in the PRESENT moment when an event common to them occurs, necessitating

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, But there is NO inertial frame that is not (presumably you meant 'in which THEY are not') moving relative to one another for the twins during the trip. If you think there is then what is it and how is it defined? One twin is accelerating and the other isn't for goodness sakes. There

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, Again, for the nth time, P-time is the presence of the logical space in which all dimensionality and thus all measurables are computed. Thus it has no measure in the sense that clock time does because it is the substrate or background of all measurement. However it can be directly

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Russell, Yes, I'm familiar with that and just posted a journal reference to it. But it's an incorrect understanding. What is really important here is RATIONAL UNpredictability, not IRrationality. This is just rationally outsmarting your competitor by figuring out what he thinks you are going

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Bruno, That's not an 'argument'. You are simply stating an hypothesis without any logical supporting argument. As to your second point you are talking about clock time, not p-time. You still don't understand the difference which I've described in exhausting detail... Moving clocks have

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
LOL! I hit send by accident... Interleaving below On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 1:23 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:12 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 8:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:16 PM, meekerdb

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/18 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net Craig, I think you are late to the discussion and missed some of my previous posts. First the present moment of p-time is directly OBSERVABLE. It's the most basic observation of our existence from birth to death. That is undeniable, and direct

Re: Tegmark and consciousness

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, Could you ever stop being obtuse? On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 17 Jan 2014, at 21:01, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, I think that you are setting up a false dichotomy with the notion of a finite unique physical universe

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Jason Resch
On Jan 18, 2014, at 1:35 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 11:03 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:55 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 10:23 PM, Jason Resch wrote: If mathematical statements are true independent of

Re: Anesthesia

2014-01-18 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 9:54 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: I think that one possible explaination is that neurochemistry is a very fragile thing. And solvents, being reactive, can easily throw a wrench into the whole thing. But why does anesthesia just disrupt consciousness?

Re: Anesthesia

2014-01-18 Thread Jason Resch
On Jan 18, 2014, at 11:51 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 9:54 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: I think that one possible explaination is that neurochemistry is a very fragile thing. And solvents, being reactive, can easily throw a wrench

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Stephen, I agree with your criticism of Bruno's UDA. It has no explanation for becoming, for anything ever happening. I've also pointed this out. However, this is equally true of block time, which you seem to believe in. In block time there is no convincing way anything can ever actually

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Edgar, LOL! You don't parse what I read very well... I have been saying that block time is a BS idea. Time is not like that at all. I have a model of time that works great in physics, but not many know of it. BTW, I do appreciate your concept, but it is a cartoon with many lacuna. It needs

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
I would like to promote this blog post and the comments on it. http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=6551 On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Edgar, LOL! You don't parse what I read very well... I have been saying that block

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Stephen, Speaking of parsing correctly, I presume you meant WRITE rather than read? :-) Anyway glad we agree block time is nonsense. So what's your idea of time that is not BS, and that is not a cartoon with many lacuna? A quick summary please? Edgar On Saturday, January 18, 2014 2:06:04

Re: Sum of all natural numbers = -1/12?

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 23:34, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Alberto, What is amusing is that Ramanujan said this (that 1+2+3+... = -1/12) in a letter to find a job in England, just to illustrate that he was not bad in computing. He was of course considered as crackpot until the letter

Re:

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
I am often in that state myself. The real world (whatever that is) keeps intruding. On 19 January 2014 01:44, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: Yes; I know. Unfortunately, as is often the case, I have no time to reply with the attention that it deserves. 2014/1/18, LizR

Re: Anesthesia

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 19 January 2014 07:09, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: I suppose it makes sense considering the brain is essentially a big lump of fat. OK, that's it, no more diets. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 19 January 2014 05:54, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear Bruno, I do not claim that UDA is flawed. I claim it is incomplete and based on a false premise. The problem is the assumption that one can reason as if the physical world does not exist and discuss ideas that

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Edgar, I am dyslexic... Do you know what a Fiber Bundle is? I ask this because the explanation does not transfer very well into English. I have tried to summerize the theory previously and didn't get very favorable results. I didn't discover it... It is the work of a Japanese Prof. Hitoshi

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Edgar, The concept in Kitada's theory of local time that may resemble your idea of an absolute present moment is the universal mapping of QM systems (via their centers of mass) to each and every point of a space-time manifold. All uncountable many of them. This creates a Fiber

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 4:29 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 January 2014 05:54, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear Bruno, I do not claim that UDA is flawed. I claim it is incomplete and based on a false premise. The problem is the assumption that

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 23:24, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Interesting. This illustrates perhaps some spectrum of different geographies possible, with the same physics, but different parameters. The WAP requires that, otherwise the fine tuning starts to look a little (tries to think of

Re: Tegmark and consciousness

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 19 January 2014 05:26, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear Bruno, Could you ever stop being obtuse? Dear Stephen, Please don't start sounding like Edgar... Please don't imply that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid! -- You received this message because you

Re: Tegmark and consciousness

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, I know. I deserved that. It is just frustrating to explain something and get a blank look in response. On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 5:14 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 January 2014 05:26, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear Bruno, Could you ever stop

Re: Tegmark and consciousness

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 19 January 2014 11:16, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, I know. I deserved that. It is just frustrating to explain something and get a blank look in response. Do you have any teenage kids?!? :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to

Re: Tegmark and consciousness

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Yes, and friends that are teenagers in mental age. On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 5:29 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 January 2014 11:16, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, I know. I deserved that. It is just frustrating to explain something and get a blank

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 19 January 2014 10:52, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: To the contrary! Bruno seems to eschew the very idea of Becoming! He appears to derive it from something static and eternal, hence the next question... I have to ask, do you accept block universes? If not imho

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 5:47 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 January 2014 10:52, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: To the contrary! Bruno seems to eschew the very idea of Becoming! He appears to derive it from something static and eternal, hence the

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:11:50AM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote: Comp does not need actual infinities, but it still needs the potential infinity of all finite things (integers, or something). But finitist physicalism is indeed a way out of comp. But then your theory is

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 07:54:08PM -0500, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear spudboy100, As far as I know, no. It isn't possible to shift from one universe into another and back. The universes are orthogonal to each other; they are not stacked like sheets of paper on top of each other. The

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 02:48:53PM -0500, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dare Jason, On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: So why can't zombies have intentions? Remember the only thing zombies supposedly lack is qualia. If a zombie is hungry and goes out to

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Russell, I would agree with you IFF the substitution level is way above the micro-scale. Molecules do operate quantum mechanically and molecules are above the substitution level. So I am skeptical. Virtual reality in silico would have to have have a quantum level resolution do do what

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Russel, Can we detect self-modeling in our brains now? I have been doing some research into Secure computation, trust me, my team is pretty sure that we can make computations look like noise on the network. On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 8:50 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.auwrote:

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
My information comes from New Scientist, so its not specialist knowledge. That said, Global Workspace Theory appears to be empirically confirmed by the latest neuroscience, and that would be the space where the system integrates the outputs of its various subsystems, ie is self-conscious. The

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 09:08:04PM -0500, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Russell, I would agree with you IFF the substitution level is way above the micro-scale. Molecules do operate quantum mechanically and molecules are above the substitution level. So I am skeptical. Virtual reality

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
It would seem that sufficiently advanced technology will eventually be able to detect all the neural correlates of consciousness. Maybe a p-zombie should be defined as something that has the neural correlates of consciousness but is still somehow not conscious. Or that there ain't no such animal.

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 19 January 2014 11:49, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: I will write it again. Block Universes are an incoherent idea. It only seems to work because we imagine tem as existing out there and subject to our inspection from the outside. As if we are God or something... This

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread meekerdb
On 1/18/2014 1:09 AM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 19:51, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 10:18 PM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 19:12, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But where does it

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Russell, I don't see the connection. How is self-modeling involved in the space where the system integrates the outputs of its various subsystems ? There is a robotics project that does include very rudimentary self-modeling in their programing.

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, Here is one way to see my worry. I can put my desktop under a scanning tunneling microscope and various devices. Will it still operate the same while it is scanned down its version of the substitution level? I don't know, but that does not really bother me. I worry about people that

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Brent, On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/18/2014 1:09 AM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 19:51, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 10:18 PM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 19:12, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Russell, I am soo happy, BTW, that you participate in this list! On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.auwrote: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 09:08:04PM -0500, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Russell, I would agree with you IFF the substitution level is

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 19 January 2014 16:05, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/18/2014 1:09 AM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 19:51, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 10:18 PM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 19:12, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But where does it exist?

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 19 January 2014 16:19, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, Here is one way to see my worry. I can put my desktop under a scanning tunneling microscope and various devices. Will it still operate the same while it is scanned down its version of the substitution

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 19 January 2014 16:28, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear Brent, On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Not so cotton-picking fast! Where is discussion of the proofs of said necessarily true maths? I could be handed a papyrus scroll

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, However, there does seem to be a problem that needs explaining, concerning why there is something rather than nothing, and what breathes fire into the equations. Any remarks on my proposal to answer those questions? In bullet points: Pairs of Opposite Somethings emerge and die

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:44 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 January 2014 16:28, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear Brent, On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Not so cotton-picking fast! Where is discussion of

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 19 January 2014 16:51, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, However, there does seem to be a problem that needs explaining, concerning why there is something rather than nothing, and what breathes fire into the equations. Any remarks on my proposal to answer

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 19 January 2014 16:55, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:44 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 January 2014 16:28, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: I am OK with postulating, but it is something like an

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 11:00 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 January 2014 16:51, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, However, there does seem to be a problem that needs explaining, concerning why there is something rather than nothing, and

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, As much grief and even, gasp, trolling as I bring to Bruno. I do LOVE his comp idea and AR is elegant, but my claim is that is is missing half of what it needs to be a complete ToE. If I am a Theorem and I have a (at least one) physical instantiation, then my self-awareness is my

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:38:58PM -0500, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Russell, I am soo happy, BTW, that you participate in this list! On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.auwrote: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 09:08:04PM -0500, Stephen Paul King wrote:

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Russell, You wrote: I don't know why you would think destructive scanning is necessary. I certainly don't. You only need to wire up the brains inputs and outputs. I thought the problem you were raising was how to emulate the universe with sufficient fidelity for it to count as visiting other

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:12:18PM -0500, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Russell, I don't see the connection. How is self-modeling involved in the space where the system integrates the outputs of its various subsystems ? Perhaps its just this: the structure of neural connections in the

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Stathis, There is a theorem by A.A. Markov that tells us that the decision problem of whether or not a pair of 4-manifolds are smoothly diffeomorphic is NP-Complete. How close does GR get to non-computable, given this? On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 3:11 AM, Stathis Papaioannou

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 11:37 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.auwrote: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:12:18PM -0500, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Russell, I don't see the connection. How is self-modeling involved in the space where the system integrates the outputs of its

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-18 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Russell, Hattip for the reference to Global Workspace theory. http://cogweb.ucla.edu/CogSci/GWorkspace.html Very nice! I think that it is consistent with Bruno's Lob theorem idea (which i like a lot!). On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 9:38 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.auwrote: My

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 07:06:48PM +1300, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 18:49, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 7:33 PM, LizR wrote: Surprisingly, perhaps, such acts sometimes deliver payoffs to the actor. Yes, for example, in cases where doing something is

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 08:05:03PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 4:33 PM, Russell Standish wrote: Their actions aren't irrational, they just aren't completely determined by their environments. Rational beings are completely determined by their environment. Not if they have rational

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:40:51PM -0600, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.auwrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Russell, PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 05:56:23PM +1300, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 13:33, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Russell, PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will is

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 19 January 2014 18:33, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: So much for free will, except as a synonym for instinct, unconscious urges and rational unpredictability. That's exactly how I use the term free will. What other possible meanings might it have? People seem to

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 07:19:37AM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Russell, Yes, I'm familiar with that and just posted a journal reference to it. But it's an incorrect understanding. What is really important here is RATIONAL UNpredictability, not IRrationality. This is just rationally

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:38:28PM -0600, Jason Resch wrote: Russell, What are your thoughts regarding compatibilismhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism? Do you consider it a cop-out? Jason I think it largely irrelevant, as it is clear we don't live in a deterministic world. --

RE: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Chris de Morsella
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2014 9:42 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 11:11:57PM -0800, Chris de Morsella wrote: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2014 9:42 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-18 Thread Jason Resch
On Jan 19, 2014, at 12:04 AM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:38:28PM -0600, Jason Resch wrote: Russell, What are your thoughts regarding compatibilismhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism? Do you consider it a cop-out? Jason I think it