Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: It's not enough to assert that evolutionary designs (teleonomy) and rational designs (teleology) are different, I am asking you to explain how it is possible for them to be different The difference is Evolution

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-01 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: The difference is Evolution doesn't understand the concept of one step backward 2 steps forward for one thing, I went into considerable more detail about this in my last post and also gave you 4 more reasons how and

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-02 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I don't understand the question because I'm not clear on what these differences refers to. The differences between evolutionary nature (teleonomy) and rational design (teleology) that we are talking about. For God's sake!

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-03 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: how can reason be completely different from evolution if reason itself is a consequence of nothing but evolution. Random mutation can wire together a small number of cells such that if there is a sudden change in the

Re: Evolution outshines reason by far

2012-10-04 Thread John Clark
Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com Wrote: Mother Nature (Evolution) is a slow and stupid tinkerer, it had over 3 billion years to work on the problem but it couldn't even come up with a macroscopic part that could rotate in 360 degrees! First of all, 360 degrees rotation is present in

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-04 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: When you say Random mutation can wire together a small number of cells such that if there is a sudden change in the light levels in the environment, like a shadow covering it, a snail will retreat into its shell, you

Re: Evolution outshines reason by far

2012-10-04 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.auwrote: Yes, so a human can jump directly from the tangled mess of DOS to a clean streamlined operating system like LINUX, but Evolution can only add even more tangled bells and whistles to DOS. John K Clark Actually,

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-05 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: To paraphrase Carl, 'First, you have to invent the universe.' You want to know why there is something rather than nothing and Science can't provide a good answer to that, but depending on exactly what you mean by nothing it can

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-06 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: I'm openly saying that a high school kid can make a robot that behaves sensibly with just a few transistors. Only because he lives in a universe in which the possibility of teleology is fully supported from the

Re: Evolution outshines reason by far

2012-10-07 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: I explained in a post above why evolution does not select weels. An autonomous living being must be topologically connected, and weels are not. Explaining why Evolution is incompetent does not make it one bit less incompetent.

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: We know with absolute certainty that the laws of physics in this universe allow for the creation of consciousness, we may not know how they do it but we know for a fact that it can be done. Absolutely not. We know no such thing.

Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-08 Thread John Clark
How David Deutsch can watch a computer beat the 2 best human Jeopardy! players on planet Earth and then say that AI has made “no progress whatever during the entire six decades of its existence” is a complete mystery to me. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, which computers do you think have conscious experiences? Windows laptops? Deep Blue? Cable TV boxes? How the hell should I know if computers have conscious experiences? How the hell should I know if people have conscious

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I have no trouble at all saying that zero computers are conscious and that all living people have had conscious experiences. Fine say what you want, but I'll never be able to prove you right and I'll never be able to prove you

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 10 Oct 2012, at 13:31, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I think that consciousness, intelligence and some measure of free will are necessary and inseparable parts of life itself.

Re: Conscious robots

2012-10-11 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Consciousness is easy if you already have consciousness. It is impossible if you don't. But you believe in panexperientialism, you believe that everything is conscious, so if you are correct then consciousness is not only

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Free Will-- You need enough freedom My difficulty with the free will noise is not the will part, you want to do some things and don't want to do others and that's clear, my difficulty is with the free part; and all you're saying

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if rather than is

2012-10-11 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 5:50 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Comp seems to avoid this insurmountable problem by avoiding the issue of whether the computer actually had an experience, only that it appeared to have an experience. So comp's requirement is as if rather than is. In

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 1:28 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: It's [free will] a simple enough concept I think that's true, although I may be using a somewhat different meaning of the word simple than you are. that it is used in law courts True. a venue not noted for

Re: The missing agent of materialism

2012-10-12 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 , Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: IMHO everything that happens happens for a reason. Opinions, humble or otherwise, really don't count for much, the universe will continue doing what it is doing regardless of your opinion; and modern physics tells us that it is

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-12 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Keep in mind that I use the compatibilist definition of free will, which is the (machine) ability to exploits its self-indetermination (with indetermination in the Turing sense, (not in the comp first person sense, nor the quantum

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-12 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: So you see no reason to draw a legal distinction between a banker to takes money from his bank to support a more lavish life style and one who does it to keep a bank robber from shooting him? No. John K Clark -- You received this

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-13 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Keep in mind that I use the compatibilist definition of free will, which is the (machine) ability to exploits its self-indetermination (with indetermination in the Turing sense, (not in the comp first person sense, nor the quantum

Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if rather thanis

2012-10-13 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: if you could tell me how to determine if a computer has intelligence The same way I determine if one of my fellow human beings is intelligent, if he beats me at a intellectual task then he's intelligent, in fact he's

Re: Yes, Doctor!

2012-10-13 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 , Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: NDEs are like UFOs. Yes they're both bullshit. The trouble with UFOs is that people forget what the U stands for and keep identifying the damn thing as a flying saucer from another planet; I see a light in the sky and I don't know

Re: Re: Yes, Doctor!

2012-10-13 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: This is supposed to be a scientific discussion. Yes, so why are you talking about NDEs and UFOs? If I was interested in that crap I wouldn't read a scientific journal or go to the Everything List, I'd just pick up a copy of the

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-14 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to be programmed to do so. And you would have to be educated to do so. which means that its intelligence would be that of the programmer. Then how can the

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-14 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: you can see from the differences between conjoined twins, who have the same nature and nurture, the same environment, that they are not the same people That is true they are not the same people, and just like EVERYTHING else

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-14 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 4:46 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: And lets not forget those who insist that in order to qualify as free will the conscious choice must not be done for a reason AND it must not not be done for a reason. Why? They are inconsistent Very inconsistent!

Re: Are we part of a vast, living and 3D holographic simulation

2012-10-15 Thread John Clark
Nick Bostrum, a philosopher at Oxford University wrote an interesting paper on this subject: http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html The following is from the abstract: This paper argues that *at least one* of the following propositions is true: (1) the human species is very likely

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-15 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Just because it looks to us that the computer is following rules doesn't mean that it is. So now you don't like computers because they don't follow rules, before you didn't like computers because they did follow rules. We

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Since we know that our consciousness You don't know diddly squat about our consciousness, you only know about your consciousness; assuming of course that you are conscious, if not then you don't even know that. is exquisitely

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: I think he [Chambers] goes wrong by assuming a priori that consciousness is functional, I've asked you this question dozens of times but you have never coherently answered it: If consciousness doesn't do anything

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: You don't know diddly squat about our consciousness, you only know about your consciousness; assuming of course that you are conscious, if not then you don't even know that. If that were true, then you don't know

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-16 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Did I ever say that I thought computers followed rules? I was under the impression that you believed all computers did was blindly follow programed rules. Apparently not. Not only are your ideas foolish they are inconsistently

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-16 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: I know you don't have a proof of the Goldbach Conjecture. Well OK, I don't know that with absolute certainty, maybe you have a proof but are keeping it secret for some strange reason, but my knowledge is more than

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-16 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 2:40 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: If consciousness doesn't do anything then Evolution can't see it, so how and why did Evolution produce it? The fact that you have no answer to this means your ideas are fatally flawed. I don't see this as a *fatal*

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-16 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: That there are literally laws which physics obeys is a fairy tale. That statement is ignorance pure and simple. How can reason be created for a reason (circular) or created not for a reason I don't understand

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-17 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: while most people are content to accept that these [physical] 'laws' simply 'are', I am more inclined to question what exactly we mean by that. It's a pity you weren't also inclined to question what exactly we mean

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-18 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: You are the one that is saying everything happens for a reason or not for a reason. Yes. Which category do laws fall under? I haven't the slightest idea, but I do know that it's got to be one or the other. Yet you

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-19 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I do know that it's got to be one or the other. But I have just proved to you that it cannot be either one. So you have just proven that X is not Y and X is not not Y. BULLSHIT! you don't have the wisdom to know when

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-19 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: If you can do something for your own personal reasons then you have free will. If you demand that personal reasons still must always come from outside of the person themselves[...] But I don't demand that at all! You might

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-19 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: So lets see, a giant junkyard magnet is a devastating logical argument but a junkyard car crusher is not. Explain to me how that works. Because talking about how you want to kill me in an argument about computers

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-19 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Darwin does not need to be wrong. Consciousness role can be deeper, in the evolution/selection of the laws of physics from the coherent dreams (computations from the 1p view) in arithmetic. I have no idea what that

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-20 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I have no idea what that means, not a clue Probably for the same reason that you stop at step 3 in the UD Argument. Probably. I remember I stopped reading after your proof of the existence of a new type of indeterminacy never

Re: Why self-organization programs cannot be alive

2012-10-20 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Creating structure out of a random environment requires intelligence, the ability to make choices on one's own. Thus we can conclude that when the sun evaporates salty water salt crystals do not form because a liquid is a

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-21 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I stopped reading after your proof of the existence of a new type of indeterminacy never seen before because the proof was in error, so there was no point in reading about things built on top of that From your error you have

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-22 Thread John Clark
afraid to look at the tape, should I be? If I found out I was the copy what should I do? I suppose I should morn the death of John Clark, but how can I, I'm not dead. If I am the copy would that mean that I have no real past and my life is meaningless? Is it important, or should I just burn the tape

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-22 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: The reasons of my neurons are not my personal reasons. True. And it's also true that the letter e is not Shakespeare's play Hamlet, but its part of it. Neurons deal in GABA and acetylcholine. I deal in paychecks and days off.

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-24 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: it's also true that the letter e is not Shakespeare's play Hamlet, but its part of it. By that analogy, you are crediting the letter e for authoring Hamlet. The letter e did not write Hamlet and neither did one neuron

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-24 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: What can you do with your computer that you couldn't do five years ago? Do a good job at understanding the human voice. Beat the 2 best human players at Jeopardy. Drive a car safely for many miles over very rough terrain.

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-24 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: What can you do with your computer that you couldn't do five years ago? Do a good job at understanding the human voice. Beat the 2 best human players at Jeopardy. Drive a car safely for many miles over very

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-25 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: A identical twin is a clone, you're talking about a exact duplicate and I would shoot him. I was given a gun and I was forced to make a very emotional decision and my duplicate was not, so I have intense memories that he

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-10-26 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: we know that nobody can answer the question why do I feel to be the one in Washington and not in Moscow. Because your eyes are sending signals to your brain of the White House and not of the Kremlin, and there is nothing more

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-10-27 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: People don't have to prove that they aren't machines. So says you, but a computer might have a very different opinion on the subject, and I don't think you even have a clear understanding what a machine is. it explains why

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-10-29 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: We now know that computing or thinking is physical, We don't know that. We know that as well as we know anything about physics. We deduce that in the Aristotelian's theories. I have no idea what if anything that means. it

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-10-29 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Gödel and Turing have never touch on the first and third person issue. Perhaps because they knew that neither they nor anybody else had anything interesting to add to the subject and they had better things to do with their time.

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-10-29 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: We know that as well as we know anything about physics This is not valid. NOT A VALID POINT?! A priori we can be dreaming in some world based on a different physics. Or, as with comp we might belong only to

Re: Scott Aronson on free will

2012-10-31 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 , meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: John Clark should get a kick out of this: http://www.scottaaronson.com/talks/ In computer science, we deal all the time with processes that are neither deterministic nor random. BULLSHIT! An example is a nondeterministic

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-01 Thread John Clark
no longer exists to write stuff in his diary. The question is about your first person experience. [...]The question is not about you, but about the most probable result of an experiment that you can do. You push on a button, and you localize your directly accessible body. Your? You? John Clark

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-02 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: let's presume that in 999 out of 1,000 almost identical standard models that exist in string theory, the half-life is 1 us. But in 1 out of those 1,000, the half life is 10 us. If you are the experimenter what can physics

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-02 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: He believes he still exist, because he believes, or assumed, comp. People believe they exist and in real life they don't have or need a reason for doing so. And I no longer know what comp means. Comp is that we can survive with a

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-03 Thread John Clark
was 100%. For some reason you believed my prediction was wrong. If you want John Clark to make other predictions about what the Helsinki man will write in the Helsinki man's diary under various circumstances John Clark will do so, but because this involves personal identity for clarity please don't

Re: Why religious truth is the highest truth

2012-11-04 Thread John Clark
Rodger, why do you believe that religious truth is truth at all, much less the highest truth? It's because most small children are genetically hard wired to unquestionably believe most of what adults tell them and to carry that belief until the day they die; that's why religious belief has a very

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-05 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: But you know in davance that whatever happen, you will live only one thing. John Clark knows with certainty that John Clark will see Washington, and John Clark knows with certainty that John Clark will see Moscow, and John Clark knows

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-05 Thread John Clark
on my part and so I will say nothing about it. You can only say that [...] You? John Clark has been duplicated so who can only say that, me or that fellow to my right who looks just like me? You? John Clark has been duplicated so who can only say that, me or that fellow to my left who looks just

Re: Debunking people's belief in free will takes the intention out of their movements

2012-11-05 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: The finding implies that free will is illusory. Free will is not illusionary. A illusion is a perfectly respectable subjective phenomena, but free will is not respectable, free will is just gibberish. John K Clark -- You

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-06 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Define John Clark. Define define. the semantic of proper name is the most difficult unsolved problem in philosophy. No it is not, the meaning of pronouns like I and He and you where it is not even known what proper name

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-08 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: After the duplication all the John Clark realise that they are in only one city, And that is exactly what John Clark predicted would happen. And John Clark is correct on this. But that was not yet the question asked, which

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-08 Thread John Clark
man is destroyed. This contradicts the time you agreed that one can survive via duplication. But it's Bruno's thought experiment and Bruno is the one who said the Helsinki man is no more, John Clark is just trying to figure out who the hell you is. When Bruno says the Helsinki man is destroyed

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-08 Thread John Clark
not express the ideas that Bruno Marchal wants to express without using pronouns, and that tells John Clark something about the nature of Bruno Marchal's ideas. Yes. And so, both Bruno Marchal will say that they were unable to be sure in advance which of of being in only M (resp W) they could happen

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-08 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 4:48 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Is this controversial? Calling it indeterminate when one thing divides and becomes two because there are now two things and not one is very controversial, especially if it's supposed to be so deep and profound that it

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-08 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: Can anyone explain why geometry/topology would exist in a comp universe? If numbers exist then so does geometry, that is to say numbers can be made to change in ways that exactly corresponds with the way objects move

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-09 Thread John Clark
, and john Clark. First define define. The 3-I is well known to be definable by the Dx = xx trick, I have to inform you that the Dx = xx trick is NOT well known to me and I don't know what you're talking about. So what's the problem? To evaluate your chance, in helsinki, to later feel

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-10 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: If numbers exist then so does geometry, that is to say numbers can be made to change in ways that exactly corresponds with the way objects move and rotate in space. I'm saying that there would be no such thing as objects,

Re: Consciousness = life = intelligence

2012-11-10 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Consciousness = life = intelligence. Therefore oak trees are intelligent and conscious. In addition, intelligence requires free will Cannot comment, don't know what ASCII sequence free will means. John K Clark -- You received

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-11 Thread John Clark
memory of the past in the future means or who its refers to but I can predict that in the future there will be 2 people who call themselves John Clark and BOTH of them will remember being me, the Helsinki man of right now. I can also predict that one of those people will feel like he's

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-12 Thread John Clark
the Helsinki person, and after the duplication, it concerns all the copies. As the diary has been duplicated too in the two places, it will contain W, or it will contain M, from all possible subject being interrogated. And if John Clark had been the Helsinki man you would find that his diary

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-12 Thread John Clark
there is only one that I know for a fact actually does feel, and it goes by the name of John Clark. My hunch is that other biological systems can feel too, my hunch is that being biological is not necessary for that to happen but I don't know it for a fact. while no inorganic lever system seems to aspire

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-13 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: As for what the Helsinki Man imagines will happen to him after he pushes that button I really don't care because that depends entirely on the particular personal beliefs of the man involved. That is non sense. If

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-15 Thread John Clark
be surprised to find out that you were correct. You keep looking at this backward and trying to establish a chain of identity from the present to the future but that's never going to work, you've got to look from the present to the past. I know for certain that I am the John Clark of yesterday

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-15 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: There is no mathematical justification for geometry though that I can think of. There are ways that numbers can describe geometry and ways that geometry can describe numbers. What more do you need? So the fact that

Re: the God hypothesis

2012-11-15 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Leibniz thought that everything needs a sufficient reason to exist as it does. And we now know that Leibniz was DEAD WRONG about that, we now know that some things happen for no reason whatsoever. And in general that's

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-16 Thread John Clark
identity works about as well as pushing on a string. you've got to use memory and look from the present to the past, give it a try, try pulling that string. And I know nothing for certain about the John Clark of tomorrow, I don't even know if he will exist. Keep in mind the theoretical

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-17 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You mean the Helsinki guy. OK, so if you are the Helsinki guy and the Helsinki guy is the guy who is still experiencing Helsinki then the answer to the question what city will you see when you push that button? is no city at all.

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-18 Thread John Clark
Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: There is no mathematical justification for geometry though that I can think of. There are ways that numbers can describe geometry and ways that geometry can describe numbers. What more do you need? A reason that there could possibly be a

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-21 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I would never claim there is no relationship between numbers and geometry, I claim that there is no function which geometry serves for arithmetic. Pythagoras discovered and proved his famous theorem using geometry, only later

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-22 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: John Clark keeps saying that after the duplication John Clark will be in both places. Not from its personal subjective view (1p). Pronouns are Bruno Marchal's crutch and now it joins the pantheon. Where

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-23 Thread John Clark
see how it matters, at least not now at our current state of ignorance. Nobody knows how many observers are possible, and even if we did nobody knows how many of those possible observers actually exist. I do know that in a thought experiment where lots of exact and near exact copies of John Clark

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-23 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: But according to computationalism your conscious moment is attached to some computer program, and computer programs progress until they halt. And a computer program is constantly changing so consciousness is constantly

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-25 Thread John Clark
to identify with something. And I don't see how you can identify with something you don't know anything about. I know for a fact that a memory of John Clark of yesterday exists, but as for John Clark of tomorrow, I can hope but I don't even know that he will exist. I maintain that nobody feels

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-25 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 5:15 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But strictly speaking they cannot be identical. For example it is statistically certain that they will be thinking different thoughts as they revive from the transport. I don't know what statistics you're referring to but

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-26 Thread John Clark
is on which different brain (the one in W after the box is open, versus the one in M) you will feel to own. Both answers can be confirmed by people who remember being the Helsinki man; John Clark doesn't know how that relates to you and Bruno Marchal doesn't know either, if Bruno Marchal did know

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-27 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: it's not a question of keeping their brains syncronized. They will *never* be in syncrony. Never is a long time. And two atomic clocks can run in synchrony even though they are sensitive to far far astronomically far thinner slices of

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-27 Thread John Clark
, the 3-yous multiplies, and the 1-you mutliply too, in the 3-views, but not from any of each possible 1-views. So from the 1-views, it is like a sequence of random event, Bruno Marchal says John Clark is confusing in the use of the pronoun you and then give us the above incredible stew of mashed

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-28 Thread John Clark
is experiencing Helsinki anymore then there is no Helsinki man anymore; but of course that's no problem to the former Helsinki man, he's doing fine in Washington AND Moscow. This contradicts what you say above. We have agree that the Helsinky man survive in both M and W John Clark can't agree

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-29 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 7:51 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: The experiment requires that you place yourself in the place of someone about to be duplicated and ask yourself what you expect to experience after that duplication. Various people expect all sorts of screwy things,

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-29 Thread John Clark
. You attribute me statements that I have never said. John Clark is not interested in all the copies John Clark is only interested in you, Bruno Marchal predicted that you will only see ONE city so which ONE was you? Was you in W or was you in M? It's OK to say or in making a prediction

Re: Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-30 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Physics is deterministic, I said it before I'll say it again, it's astonishing how many people expect to make deep philosophical discoveries while remaining totally ignorant about what science has accomplished since the year 1900,

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-30 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, if Everett is correct then the photon hit every point on that photographic plate, but for every point on the plate there is also a John Clark who, after developing the plate, sees that the photon hit that particular point

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