Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-14 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, 2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: However a Turing machine is not just a set of states, it also requires a set of transition rules. So in the same abstract way that the integers are

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-14 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/1/16 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/16 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: But both the electronic and the mechanical computer are implementing a process that is distributed in spacetime and has causal connections. Yes, and my

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-18 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/1/18 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2009, at 22:50, Brent Meeker wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Jan 2009, at 18:40, Brent Meeker wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/1/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com

Re: KIM 2.3 (was Re: Time)

2009-01-18 Thread Quentin Anciaux
I should add that in the case of the digital version, as I said earlier, the causal link is in no way the physical computer, but the program and its state. 2009/1/18 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2009/1/18 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2009

Movie graph and computational supervenience

2009-01-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, I was thinking about the movie graph and its conclusions. It concludes that it is absurd for the connsciousness to supervene on the movie hence physical supervenience is false. But if I simulate the graph with a program, and having for exemple each gates represented by a function like out =

Re: Movie graph and computational supervenience

2009-01-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/1/28 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Quentin, I was thinking about the movie graph and its conclusions. It concludes that it is absurd for the connsciousness to supervene on the movie hence physical supervenience is false. OK. It is a reductio ad absurdo. It assumes that

Re: Movie graph and computational supervenience

2009-01-29 Thread Quentin Anciaux
where all gates are broken and receive lucky rays in the movie graph), the stub subpart plays the role of the lucky rays. So if by our assumption our program was conscious, If I replace only one subpart is it still ?... 2 ? 3 ? ... everything ? Quentin 2009/1/28 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com

Re: Movie graph and computational supervenience

2009-01-29 Thread Quentin Anciaux
conscious relative to some worlds but not to others. That is relative state with a vengeance. Cheers, Günther Quentin Anciaux wrote: Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my explanations, so I'll try to be clearer. Let's suppose we have a conscious program (an AI), running in a simulated

Re: Movie graph and computational supervenience

2009-01-29 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/1/29 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 28 Jan 2009, at 21:25, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/1/28 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Quentin, I was thinking about the movie graph and its conclusions. It concludes that it is absurd for the connsciousness to supervene

Re: Movie graph and computational supervenience

2009-01-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/1/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 29 Jan 2009, at 20:42, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Why would the movie graph rule out a notion of *computational* supervenience. We can keep comp and abandon materialism. We can still say yes to the digitalist doctor, by betting on our more

Re: [kevintr...@hotmail.com: Jacques Mallah]

2009-02-06 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, 2009/2/6 russell standish li...@hpcoders.com.au - Forwarded message from Kevin Tryon kevintr...@hotmail.com - I see that one of the earlier participants on the Everything list has now taken it upon himself to educate the masses because the cat is out of the bag and QI has

Re: [kevintr...@hotmail.com: Jacques Mallah]

2009-02-07 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/2/7 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Le 06-févr.-09, à 12:06, Quentin Anciaux a écrit : Hi, 2009/2/6 russell standish li...@hpcoders.com.au He also mentions Tegmark's amoeba croaks argument, which is not actually an argument against QI, but rather a discussion of what QI

Re: briefly wading back into the fray

2009-02-07 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, 2009/2/7 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com --- On Fri, 2/6/09, russell standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: So sorry Jacques - you need to do better. I'm sure you can! Russell, I expected there might be some discussion of my latest eprint on this list. That's why I'm here now - to

Re: briefly wading back re: BB's and measure

2009-02-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/2/9 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com --- On Sat, 2/7/09, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/2/7 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com 1. Initially, before evolution occurred, a typical Boltzmann brain (BB) had about the same measure as a brain which was like what we consider

Re: children and measure

2009-02-11 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/2/11 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com --- On Mon, 2/9/09, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Also I still don't understand how I could be 30 years old and not 4, there are a lot more OM of 4 than 30... it is the argument you use for 1000 years old, I don't see why it can hold

Re: AB continuity

2009-02-11 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/2/11 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think it makes a difference if life is continuous or discrete: it is still possible to assert that future versions of myself are different people who merely experience the

Re: Dreams and measure

2009-02-11 Thread Quentin Anciaux
You were not the simulated one in your dreams, hence you can't say anything about its life expectancy... :) 2009/2/11 Saibal Mitra smi...@zonnet.nl Welcome back Jack Mallah! I have a different argument against QTI. I had a nice dream last night, but unfortunately it suddenly ended. Now,

Re: AB continuity

2009-02-11 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/2/11 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/2/11 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com And if your measure were to drop off dramatically overnight, it is equivalent to saying that many _more people_ woke up in your bed today

Re: children and measure

2009-02-11 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/2/11 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2009/2/11 Jesse Mazer laserma...@hotmail.com Brent Meeker wrote: Indeed there seems to be a conflict between MWI of QM and the feeling of consciousness. QM evolves unitarily to preserve total probability, which implies that the splitting

Re: children and measure

2009-02-11 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/2/11 Jesse Mazer laserma...@hotmail.com Brent Meeker wrote: Indeed there seems to be a conflict between MWI of QM and the feeling of consciousness. QM evolves unitarily to preserve total probability, which implies that the splitting into different quasi-classical subspaces

Re: AB continuity

2009-02-11 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/2/11 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: From a 1st perspective commonness is useless in the argument. The important is what it feels like for the experimenter. You seem to be saying that commonness of an experience has

Re: AB continuity

2009-02-11 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/2/12 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: From a 1st perspective commonness is useless in the argument. The important is what it feels like for the experimenter. You seem to be saying that commonness of an experience

Re: AB continuity

2009-02-11 Thread Quentin Anciaux
And could you explicit the not by you, if the me of 1000 years old has all my memories up to now (+ his own from now on to 1000 years old)... It is me, if you disagree what is personnal identity for you ? What is the magical I you're talking about ? Quentin 2009/2/12 Quentin Anciaux allco

Re: Qantum Immortality is not equivalent to Qantum suicide (was ASSA vs. RSSA and the no cul-de-sac conjecture)

2009-02-14 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, you shouldn't equate QS with QI... QI says there always exists a next moment (hence you always stays 'conscious'). QS says that you'll always survive in one piece after putting you in front of a destruction machine and activating it... well yes by QI you'll have a next moment... but the

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-02-23 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/2/23 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be The copy could be you in the deeper sense that it could be you even in the case where he loses some memory, all memories, or in case he got new memories, including false souvenirs. But then it is like in the movie the prestige, your brother can be

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-02-26 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, 2009/2/26 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 23 Feb 2009, at 17:15, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/2/23 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be The copy could be you in the deeper sense that it could be you even in the case where he loses some memory, all memories, or in case he got new

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-02-27 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/2/27 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 26 Feb 2009, at 18:41, Quentin Anciaux wrote: There is no identity without memories... makes no sense to me. I take it as a superficial part of identity, with respect to surviving. Personal identity, I think is more and less than personal

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/3/9 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: And if it went to zero you certainly wouldn't know and wouldn't care. If I died I wouldn't be around to know or care, but I would care in anticipation of dying,

Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]

2009-03-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi Bruno, 2009/3/15 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Günther, Hi Bruno, thanks for your interesting answer, I have some questions though. course, as I said, this will depend of what you mean by you. In case you accept the idea of surviving with amnesia, you can even get to

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I know only one case of an experience lasting 20 minutes. I am happy you found your

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Mar 2009, at 17:03, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/3/31 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hello Quentin, Le 30-mars-09, à 20:03, Quentin Anciaux a écrit : 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Mar 2009, at 17:03, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Kelly, and others, Well

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, 2009/4/29 Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com: 2009/4/29 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the information in most physical processes, but not consciousness, can be discrete? I would have said just the opposite: that even if it

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/4/29 Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com: 2009/4/29 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com: In Bruno's Washington/Moscow thought experiment that information isn't in your consciousness, although it's available via third persons. My view of the experiment is that you would lose a bit

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-08 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, 2009/5/8 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Bruno Marchal skrev: On 07 May 2009, at 18:29, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: you are human, all right? I look exactly as a human.  When you look at me, you will not be able to know if I am a human or a zombie, because I

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-03 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/6/3 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Bruno Marchal skrev: On 02 Jun 2009, at 19:43, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: 4) The set of all natural numbers. This set is hard to define, yet I hope you agree we can describe it by the infinite quasi exhaustion by {0, 1, 2, 3,

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-03 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/6/3 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Quentin Anciaux skrev: 2009/6/3 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Bruno Marchal skrev: On 02 Jun 2009, at 19:43, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: 4) The set of all natural numbers. This set is hard to define, yet I hope you

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-03 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/6/3 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/6/3 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Bruno Marchal skrev: On 02 Jun 2009, at 19:43, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: 4) The set of all natural numbers. This set is hard to define, yet I hope you

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-04 Thread Quentin Anciaux
If you are ultrafinitist then by definition the set N does not exist... (nor any infinite set countably or not). If you pose the assumption of a biggest number for N, you come to a contradiction because you use the successor operation which cannot admit a biggest number.(because N is well

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-05 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/6/5 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Kory Heath skrev: On Jun 4, 2009, at 8:27 AM, Torgny Tholerus wrote: How do you handle the Russell paradox with the set of all sets that does not contain itself?  Does that set contain itself or not? My answer is that that set does not contain

Re: Cognitive Theoretic Model of the Universe

2009-06-05 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Well as FORTRAN is a turing complete language, then you can. As long as the programming language is universal/turing complete you can. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness Regards, Quentin 2009/6/5 ronaldheld ronaldh...@gmail.com: Bruno:  I understand a little better. is there

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-06 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/6/6 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Jesse Mazer skrev: Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 16:48:21 +0200 From: tor...@dsv.su.se To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries Jesse Mazer skrev: Here you're just contradicting yourself. If

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
of that word.  If you do not define the domain, then it will be impossible for me and all other humans to understand what you are talking about. Well you are the first and only human I know who don't understand all as everybody else does. Quentin Anciaux -- Torgny Tholerus -- All those

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/6/9 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Jesse Mazer skrev: Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:17:03 +0200 From: tor...@dsv.su.se To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries My philosophical

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Let me correct... Assuming your special successor rule BIGGEST+1 simply is 0 and is well defined and *is part* of the previously defined set of natural number (defined as 0,...,BIGGEST) unlike what Torgny argues. Regards, Quentin 2009/6/9 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com: You have

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/6/9 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Quentin Anciaux wrote: You have to explain why the exception is needed in the first place... The rule is true until the rule is not true anymore, ok but you have to explain for what sufficiently large N the successor function would yield next

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/6/9 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com: 2009/6/9 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Quentin Anciaux wrote: You have to explain why the exception is needed in the first place... The rule is true until the rule is not true anymore, ok but you have to explain for what sufficiently

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/6/10 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Jesse Mazer wrote: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:54:16 -0700 From: meeke...@dslextreme.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries You don't justify definitions. How would you justify

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-10 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Well if you have problem with word definition, use google then http://www.google.be/search?source=ighl=frrlz==q=define%3A+everybtnG=Recherche+Googlemeta=lr%3D 2009/6/10 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Jesse Mazer skrev: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:38:23 +0200 From: tor...@dsv.su.se To:

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-13 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/6/13 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Jesse Mazer skrev: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:40:14 +0200 From: tor...@dsv.su.se To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries It is, as I said above, for me and all other humans to understand

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-13 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Well it is illegal regarding the rules meaning with these rules set B does not exist as defined. 2009/6/13 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Quentin Anciaux skrev: 2009/6/13 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: What do you think about the following deduction?  Is it legal or illegal

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-14 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/6/14 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Quentin Anciaux skrev: Well it is illegal regarding the rules meaning with these rules set B does not exist as defined. What is it that makes set A to exist, and set B not to exist?  What is the (important) differences between the definition

Re: The seven step-Mathematical preliminaries

2009-06-17 Thread Quentin Anciaux
paradoxes, and which will yield, in the comp frame, interesting constraints on what computations are and are not. Bruno On 13 Jun 2009, at 13:26, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Quentin Anciaux skrev: 2009/6/13 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: What do you think about the following deduction

Re: Dreaming On

2009-07-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, 2009/7/31 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com: On 31 July, 14:57, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 31 Jul 2009, at 12:43, 1Z wrote: On 31 July, 10:03, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 31 Jul 2009, at 10:32, 1Z wrote (to David): But you haven't said what the problem is

Re: Can mind be a computation if physics is fundamental?

2009-08-06 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, it seems you start with the assumptions that an AI can't do science as humans... to conclude just that. Regards, Quentin 2009/8/6 Colin Hales c.ha...@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au: Man this is a tin of worms! I have just done a 30 page detailed refutation of computationalism. It's going through

Re: Dreaming On

2009-08-07 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, 2009/8/7 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Bruno Marchal skrev: Then it is not RITSIAR in the sense of the discussion with David. Real in the sense that I am real. is ambiguous. Either the I refers to my first person, and then I have ontological certainty. As I said on FOR, I can

Re: Can mind be a computation if physics is fundamental?

2009-08-12 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/8/12 Colin Hales c.ha...@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au: My motivation to kill COMP is purely aimed at bring a halt to the delusion of the AGI community that Turing-computing will ever create a mind. They are throwing away $millions based on a false belief. Their expectations need to be

Re: Can mind be a computation if physics is fundamental?

2009-08-13 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/8/13 Colin Hales c.ha...@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/8/12 Colin Hales c.ha...@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au: My motivation to kill COMP is purely aimed at bring a halt to the delusion of the AGI community that Turing-computing will ever create a mind. They are throwing

Re: Emulation and Stuff

2009-08-14 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/8/14 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: On 14 Aug 2009, at 03:18, David Nyman wrote: 2009/8/14 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: A sufficiently detailed, accurate and predictive numerical model is as good as the stuff it models And in terms of stuffy ontology, it would be a

Re: Emulation and Stuff

2009-08-14 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/8/14 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: Rex, I have seen your post and I will take the time needed to answer it cautiously. Quentin, your post is simpler to answer, so I do it no, but then I have to do some works. On 14 Aug 2009, at 12:16, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/8/14 Bruno

Re: Emulation and Stuff

2009-08-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/8/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: On 14 Aug 2009, at 12:58, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/8/14 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: Because stuffy bricks, with comp, have to been recovered from the physics extracted from comp, infinite statistics on infinite computations

Re: Emulation and Stuff

2009-08-19 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/8/19 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: There is no immaterial existence at all, and  my agreeign to have my brain physcially replicated doesn't prove there is. And you saying so doesn't prove there isn't. So to save a role to matter, you will have to make your consciousness of

Re: Emulation and Stuff

2009-08-19 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/8/19 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: That is never going to get you further than mathematical existence. You still need the futher step of showing mathematical existence is ontological RITISAR existence. So you would accept to be turned into a program as long as you're running on

Re: Emulation and Stuff

2009-08-21 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/8/21 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: On 20 Aug, 00:28, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 19 Aug 2009, at 22:21, Flammarion wrote: Where he says computation can happen without any physicial process at all. I don't see any evidence for that I am explaining this right

Re: Dreaming On

2009-08-27 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/8/26 David Nyman david.ny...@gmail.com: 2009/8/26 Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com: With the example of the light, you alter the photoreceptors in the retina so that they respond the same way when to a blue light that they would have when exposed to a red light. Ah, so the

Re: Dreaming On

2009-08-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/8/27 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: On 27 Aug, 08:54, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/8/26 David Nyman david.ny...@gmail.com: This is because if consciousness is a computational process then it is independant of the (physical or ... virtual) implementation. If I

Re: Dreaming On

2009-08-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/8/28 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/8/27 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: On 27 Aug, 08:54, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/8/26 David Nyman david.ny...@gmail.com: This is because if consciousness is a computational process

Re: Dreaming On

2009-08-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/8/28 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/8/28 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/8/27 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: On 27 Aug, 08:54, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/8/26 David Nyman david.ny...@gmail.com

Re: Dreaming On

2009-08-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/8/29 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/8/28 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/8/28 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/8/27 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: On 27 Aug, 08:54, Quentin

Re: Dreaming On

2009-09-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Exactly, if mind is a computational process, there is no way for it to know it is being simulated on the level 0 of the real (if there is one). There would be *no difference* for it if it was simulated on virtual machine running on a virtual machine running on a virtual machine running on this

Re: Dreaming On

2009-09-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/1 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: On 1 Sep, 15:00, David Nyman david.ny...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 Sep, 13:08, Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: That is the point.  I should say that my starting position before encountering Bruno's views was against the tenability of CTM

Re: Dreaming On

2009-09-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/1 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: David Nyman wrote: 2009/9/1 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: I claim that that is a *possiblity* and as such is enough to show that CTM does not necessarily follow from the computability of physics. It may be easy to lose sight, in the

Re: Dreaming On

2009-09-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/1 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: On 1 Sep, 18:14, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/1 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: David Nyman wrote: 2009/9/1 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: I claim that that is a *possiblity* and as such is enough to show

Re: Yablo, Quine and Carnap on ontology

2009-09-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 16 Sep, 12:54, David Nyman david.ny...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: I find that I can't real say what the difference is supposed to be between numbers existing mathematically and numbers existing

Re: Yablo, Quine and Carnap on ontology

2009-09-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 16 Sep, 13:30, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 16 Sep, 12:54, David Nyman david.ny...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: I find that I

Re: Yablo, Quine and Carnap on ontology

2009-09-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 16 Sep, 13:49, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 16 Sep, 13:30, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 16 Sep, 12:54

Re: Yablo, Quine and Carnap on ontology

2009-09-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 16 Sep, 14:58, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 16 Sep, 13:49, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 16 Sep, 13:30

Re: Yablo, Quine and Carnap on ontology

2009-09-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 16 Sep, 16:02, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 16 Sep, 14:58, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/16 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 16 Sep, 13:49

Re: Yablo, Quine and Carnap on ontology

2009-09-22 Thread Quentin Anciaux
It does show that you're nothing more than a program... which exists (mathematically) independantly of any of it's instantiation. Regards, Quentin 2009/9/22 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 18 Sep, 08:33, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I start from pure cognitive science.

Re: Yablo, Quine and Carnap on ontology

2009-09-22 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/22 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 22 Sep, 12:07, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: It does show that you're nothing more than a program... which exists (mathematically) independantly of any of it's instantiation. Such existence is blatant Platonism. No it's what

Re: Yablo, Quine and Carnap on ontology

2009-09-22 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Is mathematic dependant on human being from your point of view ? That's what I understand. 2009/9/22 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 22 Sep, 12:59, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/22 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 22 Sep, 12:07, Quentin Anciaux allco

Re: Yablo, Quine and Carnap on ontology

2009-09-22 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/22 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 22 Sep, 17:52, David Nyman david.ny...@gmail.com wrote: On Sep 22, 4:46 pm, Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: There is no problem attaching consc to PM. What do you mean by this? since PM notoriously has no intrinisc properties,

Re: Yablo, Quine and Carnap on ontology

2009-09-22 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/22 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Sep 2009, at 15:51, Flammarion wrote: He goes on to conclude that I am being generated by an immaterial UD. That is not possible if there are no immaterial entities. You are in a third person way. If you

Re: Dreaming On

2009-09-22 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/22 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 1 Sep, 18:14, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/1 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: The level 0 has nothing that can be detected/tested if CTM is true by a computational observer (us if CTM is true). If a level 0

Re: Dreaming On

2009-09-22 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/22 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 22 Sep, 21:29, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/22 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 1 Sep, 18:14, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/1 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: The level 0 has

Re: Dreaming On

2009-09-22 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Sorry I wanted to write it does *add* nothing. Level 0 is not part of the computation. And I still don't see how you can relate physically running a program on a computer, a 2009/9/22 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2009/9/22 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 22 Sep, 21:29, Quentin

Re: Dreaming On

2009-09-22 Thread Quentin Anciaux
, in my mind. The only relation is the abstract computation. Quentin 2009/9/22 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com Sorry I wanted to write it does *add* nothing. Level 0 is not part of the computation. And I still don't see how you can relate physically running a program on a computer, a 2009

Re: Yablo, Quine and Carnap on ontology

2009-09-23 Thread Quentin Anciaux
CTM = Computational theory of mind PM = Primary matter UD = Universal Dovetailer UDA = Universal Dovetailer Argument AUDA = Arithmetical Dovetailer Argument Quentin 2009/9/23 m.a. marty...@bellsouth.net *Would anyone care to provide a gloss to all the capital letter codes being used in this

Re: Dreaming On

2009-09-24 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/9/24 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 24 Sep, 16:16, david.nyman david.ny...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/24 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com: Why harp on the fact that CTM isn't physicalist enough, if you think physicalism is equally sueless? After all, phsycialism is just PM

Re: Dreaming On

2009-09-24 Thread Quentin Anciaux
What are the common relevant physical details of all the proposed executing scheme ? Quentin 2009/9/24 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 24 Sep, 17:34, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/24 Flammarion peterdjo...@yahoo.com On 24 Sep, 16:16, david.nyman

Re: How many universe in the Multiverse?

2009-10-12 Thread Quentin Anciaux
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0910/0910.1589v1.pdf 2009/10/12 m.a. marty...@bellsouth.net *What's the URL?* ** - Original Message - From: ronaldheld ronaldh...@gmail.com To: Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 8:56 AM Subject: How

Re: UDA query

2009-12-20 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/12/21 Nick P m...@dtech.fsnet.co.uk Bruno states in his paper “The Origin of Physical Laws and Sensations” that “The description encoded at Brussels after the reading-cutting process is just the description of a state of some Turing machine, given that we assume comp. So its description

Re: UDA query

2009-12-24 Thread Quentin Anciaux
? the fact that you see the universe being Nick Prince and not being Quentin Anciaux ? Regards, Quentin I’m missing the trick here. Maybe its some kind of insight restructured perception that I need. I will try to read up some more to see if I can make some more progress. Thank you very

Re: UDA query

2010-01-05 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2010/1/5 Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com 2010/1/5 Nick Prince m...@dtech.fsnet.co.uk: Is this because you think of your stream of consciousness as somehow like a reel of film? All the individual pictures could be cut from the reel and laid out any which way but the implicit order

Re: UDA query

2010-01-05 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Le mercredi 06 janvier 2010 à 00:29 +1100, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : 2010/1/5 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com: Consider a set of three one minute intervals of experience, {S1, S2, S3}, which belong to a person S. S2 remembers S1 and remembers no gap or intervening experiences

Re: UDA query

2010-01-07 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2010/1/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2010/1/7 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: A program that generates S2 as it were out of nowhere, with false memories of an S1 that has not yet happened or may never happen, is a perfectly legitimate program and

Re: UDA query

2010-01-08 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2010/1/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2010/1/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto: meeke...@dslextreme.com Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2010/1/7 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com

Re: UDA query

2010-01-08 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2010/1/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2010/1/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2010/1/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto: meeke...@dslextreme.com Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2010/1/7 Brent Meeker

Re: UDA query

2010-01-08 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2010/1/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2010/1/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2010/1/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2010/1/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto: meeke

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