A Dialogue with Brent on artificial intelligence.

2012-08-09 Thread Roger
ROGER: Perhaps I am wrong, but I have a problem with the concept of artificial intelligence and hence artificial life-- at least according to my understanding of what intelligence is. As I see it, intelligence is the ability to make choices completely on one's own. Autonomously. Thus

Re: Re: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the firsttime ever

2012-08-09 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal Thanks again for the enlightening comments below and previously. You're absolutely right, I not only don't know what Turing machines can do, I don't know what a Godelian version of a Turing machine could do. I need to do some thinking. Thanks again. Roger , rclo

Minds or bodies = monads = quantum algebras.

2012-08-09 Thread Roger
Hi Y, Wrong. Monads are simply agebraic terms, and Yasue discusses them accordingly. He could have called his paper quantum algebra instead of quantum monadology http://cognet.mit.edu/posters/TUCSON3/Yasue.html Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/7/2012 Is life a cause/effect activity ? If so

Re: Re: God has no name

2012-08-09 Thread Roger
, the Jews never say God as far as I know, they sometimes write it as G*d. We have relaxed these constrictions in the protestant tradition, use Jehovah and all sorts of other sacfed names. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/7/2012 Is life a cause/effect activity ? If so, what is the cause agent

Definitions of intelligence possibly useful to computers in AI or describing life

2012-08-09 Thread Roger
. Autonomous choices. Self determinations. This ability is IMHO essential for life, for one has to choose which direction to move all on one's own (Aristotle) , to separate good food from bad food, to separate friend from foe, etc. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/7/2012 Is life a cause/effect

Re: Re: Definitions of intelligence possibly useful to computers in AI ordescribing life

2012-08-10 Thread Roger
Hi Russell Standish Life doesn't have to be intelligent in the IQ sense, but it still has to know, for example, however dimly, what's good to eat. I still call that dim awareness intelligence. IMHO I believe intelligence of some form extends through creation. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/10

Where's the agent ? Who or what does stuff and is aware of stuff ?

2012-08-10 Thread Roger
though he's difficult and some say contradictory. That agent or soul or self you have is your monad, the only (alhough indirectly) perceiving/acting/feeling agent in all of us, but currently missing in neuroscience and neurophilosophy. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/10/2012 - Receiving

Re: Re: Libet's experimental result re-evaluated!

2012-08-10 Thread Roger
Hi Russell Standish Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/10/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Russell Standish Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-10, 08:04:44 Subject: Re: Libet's experimental result re-evaluated! On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 12:10:43PM +0200, Bruno Marchal

On rational prayer

2012-08-10 Thread Roger
. And the highest form of prayer (centering prayer) is simply wordless intention. And even higher, even the intention drops off (you stop doing praying and just be with God). I have only done this once in my life. Zen masters call this the Void. I would call it the Plenum. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net

The question of self. Dennet is here expanded through the use of Leibniz and Kant

2012-08-11 Thread Roger
categories as subsets. V is the self or dominant monad. It is the active observer and agent. V Observing self or acting agent (contains Kant's functional categories below as logical subcategories) Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8

Severe limitations of a computer as a brain model

2012-08-11 Thread Roger
Hi Alberto G. Corona Agreed. Computers are quantitative instruments and so cannot have a self or feelings, which are qualitative. And intution is non-computable IMHO. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/11/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Alberto G. Corona Receiver

Re: Re: Libet's experimental result re-evaluated!

2012-08-11 Thread Roger
Hi Alberto G. Corona Amen. Well said. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/11/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Alberto G. Corona Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-10, 10:23:24 Subject: Re: Libet's experimental result re-evaluated! The modern positivist conception

The persistence of intelligence

2012-08-11 Thread Roger
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi IMHO Intelligence is part of mind, so is platonic and outside of spacetime. It was there before the universe was created, used to create the universe and now guides and moves everything that happens i9n the unverse. That's a Leibnizian conjecture. Roger , rclo

Re: Re: Re: Definitions of intelligence possibly useful to computers in AIordescribing life

2012-08-11 Thread Roger
Hi Russell Standish When I gave in to the AI point of view that computers can posess intelligence, I had overlooked the world of experience, which is not quantitative. Only living things can experience the world. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/11/2012 - Receiving the following content

A possible solution to the incomputability of experience

2012-08-11 Thread Roger
Hi Stephen P. King Personally I go with Roger Penrose and his conjecture that, as I personally understand it, conscious experience is noncomputable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFbrnFzUc0U Which is not to say that IMHO experience can be understood through Leibniz's metaphysics

pre-established harmony

2012-08-11 Thread Roger
is nonlocal. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/11/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-11, 01:56:41 Subject: Re: Where's the agent ? Who or what does stuff and is aware of stuff ? Hi Roger, I have noticed and read your

The prison of language and the meanings of words

2012-08-11 Thread Roger
from the prison of language through pure experience. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/11/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-11, 01:21:52 Subject: Re: God has no name You live by symbols. You have made up names

Leibniz on the unconscious

2012-08-11 Thread Roger
in scope in man, since they may be darkened by ignorance and lack of intgelligence and are always distorted to some exxtent. Only the supreme monad has perfect vision of everything. Knows all. Does all. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/11/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb

Positivism and intelligence

2012-08-11 Thread Roger
said that it was very unlikely that it was created by chance. All very unlikely things in my opinion show evidence of intelligence. In order to extract energy from disorder as life does shows that, like Maxwell's Demon, some intelligence is required to sort things out. Roger , rclo

Re: Re: Where's the agent ? Who or what does stuff and is aware of stuff ?

2012-08-11 Thread Roger
Hi meekerdb No, the agent is not part of the material world, it is nonmaterial. It has no extension and so is outside of spacetime. Mind itself is such (as Descartes observed). Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/11/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver

Words vs experience

2012-08-12 Thread Roger
personal shared faithbelief etc. Poets and novelists are good at converting experiences (what one can imagine) into words. Most of us are not that good. Computers can only think in words so cannot experience anything. They thus can thus not be conscious. Roger , rclo

the unitary mind vs the modular brain

2012-08-12 Thread Roger
is the monad. It is the eye of the universe, although for us we can only perceive indirectly. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/12/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-11, 09:52:29 Subject: Re: Libet's experimental result re-evaluated

Why AI is impossible

2012-08-12 Thread Roger
is subjective, nonlife is objective. Computers cannot experience anything because they are not subjective, only objective. Everytthing must be in words, not directly experienced. Thus computers cannot be (truly) intelligent. And AI is impossible, because only living items can experience the world.. Roger

How can there be a subjective universe ?

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
not have intelligence, which is necessary foir consciousness, so without consciousness, the subjectivity of a stone for example, would be analogous to that of a blind deaf man (guided by an angel). Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno

qualitative recognition

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
word. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Brian Tenneson Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-12, 13:52:51 Subject: Re: Words vs experience This is already a consequence of computer science. All sound machines looking inward, or doing

Re: Re: pre-established harmony

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal BRUNO: This musical score, does it require work of some kind to be created itself? ROGER: A Turing Machine (tapes with holes in them) would not be able to see the future, only intuition and other abilities might do that. So it could not create itself. BRUNO: I argue

Peirce on subjectivity

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
is the basis of thinking.] THIRDNESS: (doing or expressing publicly in words) - saying That's an apple. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-13, 11:53:51 Subject: Re: Why AI is impossible Hi

Epistemology of Peirce and of Mandarin Chinese

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
with b) its meaning in the form of a word or symbol stored memory c) a word for that meaning. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-13, 09:15:35 Subject: Re: Words vs experience On 12 Aug

on tribes

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
feathers or display their tattoes and are only friendly to our own tribe or gang. So a liberal won't listen to a conservative and vice versa. It greatly simplifies thinking and speaking, and is a dispeller of doubt and tells us with some apparent certainty on who we are. So Roger , rclo

On Platonism

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
manuscripots, simply and rapidly wrote down his pieces rapidly with nary an erase. And so following Penrose and my own experiences as in the above, and because I believe that the supremem monad is Plato's One, I am most of the timne time a Platonist Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012

Re: Re: qualitative recognition

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Alberto G. Corona Yes, qualia are the qualitative aspects of an experience, meaning as perceived, such as the redness of an apple. The apple only appears red to us. Dogs or some other animals cannot see red, so it would appear perhaps gray to them. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012

self-determination

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi Intelligent means subjectively determined, that is, determined all on our own, autonomously, not by some computer program. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Evgenii Rudnyi Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-12, 09

Is matter real ?

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
metaphysics is that, instead, only the monads are real, since they refer to unitary substances and that these substances, taken logically, have no parts. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Jason Resch Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012

Re: Re: Severe limitations of a computer as a brain model

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
that John Coltrane's solos came out of the Platonic world. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-12, 13:24:42 Subject: Re: Severe limitations of a computer as a brain model On Sat, Aug 11, 2012

Earthquakes

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
the world has imperfections or cracks ior the cointinental plaes don't fit perfectly together. And any fact must be that way for a reason, the reason also may be contingent, etc. up the line. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King

The categories of subject, object, physical, nonphysical, nonlocal

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
(such as mind), where it is unextended (outside of spacetime). 4. Outside of spacetime means the entity has nonlocality. Hence telepathy, prayer, etc. are possible in some situations (where one has clearer less undistorted mental vision or intelligence). Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14

Intelligence is the ability to make deliberate free choices.

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal IMHO Intelligence is the ability to make deliberate free choices. One could lie if one chose to. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-12, 05:24:48 Subject: Re

On the subconscious

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
. This is how they do their work. Meaning comes from context and stories are a frequent form of meaning. We live by myths. Our minds read the tea leaves of memory. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list

Re: Re: Definitions of intelligence possibly useful to computers inAIordescribing life

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal You say, a non living computer can supported a living self-developing life form Do you mean support instead of supported ? Or what do you mean ? Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list

Is the Turing machine like a tabla rasa ?

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal What is it that Locke and Hume claimed ? That we can think nothing that did not come through our senses, that is, from experience. But Turing machines cannot experience life. They can only experience 0s and 1s. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving

The intuitions of time and space

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
then be eternal, like heaven. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-12, 05:15:39 Subject: Re: The persistence of intelligence On 11 Aug 2012, at 13:03, Roger wrote: Hi Evgenii Rudnyi

Apperception or self-awarewess

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal For what it's worth, Leibniz differentiated between ordinary perception (which would include sentience or awareness) and self-awareness, which he called apperception. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal

Re: Re: A possible solution to the incomputability of experience

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal Penrose's noncomputability argument is based on Godel's theorem, which along these lines, IMHO also makes rational thinking leaky. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08

Imprisoned by language (code)

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
(can, like meaning, only be experienced). Life cannot truly be expressed or experienced in code. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-12, 05:13:01 Subject: Re: Severe limitations

any novel features the center of narrative gravity.

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
, and that's why I keep reading. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-12, 04:01:49 Subject: Re: Where's the agent ? Who or what does stuff and is aware of stuff ? On 10 Aug 2012, at 14:53

Re: Re: Libet's experimental result re-evaluated!

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal Memory may be physical, but the experience of memory is not physical. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-11, 12:00:54 Subject: Re: Libet's experimental result re

Intelligence vs AI

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi There is Intelligence (which requires a self to decide things) and there is AI, which does not use a self. In AI, the lights are on, but nobody's home. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Evgenii Rudnyi Receiver

life and governance

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi Unless it is drunk, life must have governance, which means it needs intelligence as a governor. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Evgenii Rudnyi Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-12, 04:05:20 Subject: Re

Anything internally governed must have an intelligence to govern it.

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi Anything internally governed must have an intelligence to govern it. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Evgenii Rudnyi Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-12, 02:51:22 Subject: Re: Definitions of intelligence

Misusing Descartes' model

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
are mostly atheists, since God doesn't fit into their model of the universe. While in Leibniz, God is necessary. for the universe Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Jason Resch Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-11, 14:53:26 Subject: Re

Re: Re: Leibniz on the unconscious

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Jason Resch I realize that animals can think to some extent, I was just using Leibniz' simplified model. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Jason Resch Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-11, 18:23:30 Subject: Re: Leibniz

On the necessity of monads for perception

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Jason Resch No, the artificial man does not have a conscious self (subjectivity) to experience (to feel) the world. You could show a movie of happenings in his mind, but there'd be nobody there to watch it. Only a monad can do that. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012

Re: Re: The prison of language and the meanings of words

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi John Clark Good one. Another version is said to have been made by St. Theresa, who said to God, regarding His failure to heal her sickness, No wonder you have so few friends ! Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver

Re: Re: Definitions of intelligence possibly useful to computers in AI ordescribing life

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Russell Standish Another definition of life (Aristotle's) is that life is anything that is self-activated. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Russell Standish Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-12, 05:38:16 Subject: Re

Re: Re: Definitions of intelligence possibly useful to computers in AI ordescribing life

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi Russell Standish Anything self-activated (life) needs intelligence to decide what to do next. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: Russell Standish Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-12, 01:18:27 Subject: Re: Definitions

Re: Re: Where's the agent ? Who or what does stuff and is aware of stuff ?

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi meekerdb Excellent point. My only answer is that the self or agent has to be a monad. because only monads can perceive (although indirectly). Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-11, 18

A rat brain robot

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi meekerdb No, except in case anyone's interested, there is a hybrid, which might have a future, the Rat Brain Robot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QPiF4-iu6g Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time

Re: Re: Leibniz on the unconscious

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi meekerdb Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-11, 18:14:45 Subject: Re: Leibniz

Re: Re: Positivism and intelligence

2012-08-14 Thread Roger
Hi meekerdb You're right, random shapes do not show evidence of intelligence. But the carbon atom, being highly unlikely, does. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/14/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following

the tribal self

2012-08-15 Thread Roger
puts on his uniform and stops a car for speeding, he's a different person. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/15/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything

Homunculi

2012-08-15 Thread Roger
with the monad, which is nonmaterial, nonphysical. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/15/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-14, 11:01:03

Leibniz still lives ! Quantum monadology.

2012-08-15 Thread Roger
(as described by quantum mechanics and relativity theory). Does matter have an inside? What is the flowing time now? Does physics allow the indeterminism by volition? The problem of quantum measurement is also resolved in this model. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/15/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's

Re: Re: Why AI is impossible

2012-08-15 Thread Roger
. It is as if you talk about swimming in the water without actually diving in. Or treating a meal as that which is on the menu, but not actually eating it. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/15/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving

Dasein

2012-08-15 Thread Roger
. Entirely different worlds. It is as if you talk about swimming in the water without actually diving in. Or treating a meal as that which is on the menu, but not actually eating it. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/15/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could

Re: Re: the tribal self

2012-08-16 Thread Roger
to seduce you. Maybe she reads Cosmoplitan magazine. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/16/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Alberto G. Corona Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-15

?

2012-08-16 Thread Roger
BRUNO: I meant that some fixed hardware computer can emulate a virtual self-modifying version of itself, so that your point is not valid. ROGER: What point ? And emulate in what sense ? Ie could a computer ever be a good wine taster ? BRUNO: If not you introduce a notion of living matter

The fine-tuning argument

2012-08-16 Thread Roger
contains life also is in accord with Leibniz's Best Possible Universe aregument. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/16/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything

Can bacteria be simulated with Turing machines ?

2012-08-16 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal If there is an existing proof that bacteria can be modeled by Turing machines, I'd find that extremely insteresting. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/16/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving

Re: Re: Leibniz on the unconscious

2012-08-16 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal That's Cosmic Clockmaker argument. God created the universe and let it just run by istself with no intervention. But where or how did God come up with a blueprint ? Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/16/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so

Self-image and self-identity

2012-08-16 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal Can this machine recognize its self in a mirror or line-up ? Self-image would be a critical part of self-identity. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/16/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following

Re: Re: Why AI is impossible

2012-08-16 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal The Bible teaches that God spends much of his time looking into men's hearts to see if love or evil rests there. Would this be part of your definition of omniscience ? Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/16/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so

Re: Re: Misusing Descartes' model

2012-08-16 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal Thanks for the information. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/16/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-15, 04:31

Re: Re: Severe limitations of a computer as a brain model

2012-08-16 Thread Roger
for it, but it escapes my mind right now. Maybe it's a light tan ? Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/16/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time

Re: Re: Libet's experimental result re-evaluated!

2012-08-16 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal What is physical primitiveness ? Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/16/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-15

the Holy Grail

2012-08-16 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal Wow ! If true this would be the Holy Grail I've sought, and the irony is that I could not understand what to do with it. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/16/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving

Re: Re: ?

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi Richard Ruquist Glad to see you here. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-16, 10:42:12

The I Ching, a cominatorically complete hyperlinked semantic field (mind).

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
used in fortune telling, forbidden by the Bible) are not a healthy pursuit, I gave up all of that stuff. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig

Digital dealing with subjective experience

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
- Have received the following content - Sender: Roger Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-17, 10:03:03 Subject: Re: Re: Severe limitations of a computer as a brain model Hi Craig Weinberg Bruno Marchal's Comment below on the possibility of digitally dealing with subjective

Re: Re: Earthquakes

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi Jason Resch Right. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Jason Resch Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-14, 19:37:15 Subject: Re

Leibniz on the Good, the Bad and the Ugly

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
not to hate God if bad things happen to you, Leibniz makes the point that what is good for the whole does not guarantee that it would be good for each part. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function

Turing vs Godel

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi Jason Resch Wouldn't Godel incompleteness be the fatal flaw in at least some Turing machines ? Meaning, they cannot have a full set of instructions or data. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function

The difference betrween abstract and concrete

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi Jason Resch One -- especially a computer -- cannot experience abstractions. One (ie only living entities) can only experience the concrete. abÁ©Ětract adjective 1. thought of apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances: an abstract idea. Roger , rclo

Some difficulties with comp

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
as concrete realities and 6) Use a computer program to do what you want. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Jason Resch Receiver: everything-list

Peirce's categories and the subjective-- objective transformation

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi William R. Buckley Yes. Peirce's categories could also be used as a framework for a theory of subjectivity/objectivity. I is subjective (observing) II is subjective to objective (recognizing) II is objective (expressing) Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say

Wonder

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi meekerdb A computer can not experience the wonder produced by the night sky, for example. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb

concrete experiences vs abstract descriptions of experiences

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi William R. Buckley But experience is concrete, but a computer can only deal in abstractions, which at best are descriptions of experience. It like the difference between having sex and just talking about it. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd

Re: Re: A rat brain robot

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi meekerdb why not what ? Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-14, 14:25:31 Subject: Re: A rat

Re: Re: Leibniz on the unconscious

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
for why there is a universe and not nothing. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-14, 14:28:43 Subject: Re

Re: Re: pre-established harmony

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno, By ontologically primitive entity do you mean substance ? Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list

Re: Re: Earthquakes

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi Stephen P. King That free will is consistent with a deterministic universe is the compatibilist point of view. There is also the opposite, the non-compatibilist p.o.v. They're both logical, given their different assumptions or posings of the issue. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012

On impossible things

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
in Wonderland, Lewis Carroll. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Russell Standish Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-14, 19:11:03 Subject: Re: Why

Re: Re: Earthquakes

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi Stephen P. King The possible only exists in this world given enough time. That is one practical argument against the creation of life in a deterministic world. Some say 19 billion years of random constructions isn't enough. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say

My solution to the Chicken vs the Egg paradox

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi meekerdb In my view, this is the Chicken vs Egg paradox, my solution to it being that life has been present even before the Big Bang in the fiorm of (cosmic) intelligence. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything

Re: Re: Severe limitations of a computer as a brain model

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi Jason Resch It isn't levels that's the problem, it's the dualism between (concrete) privately lived experience and describing the experience in words (abstractions) in public afterwards. The former is alive, the latter is dead. A description is not the thing itself. Roger , rclo

0s and 1s

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
experience or thought. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-15, 11:39:24 Subject: Re: Is the Turing

Descartes and the turf war between science and religion

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
at all. Meaning can only be conveyed in story form. Not that the story is false, but that meaning requires a story form. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From

Re: Re: Re: Severe limitations of a computer as a brain model

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi John Clark Tell me then, John, what is the difference between red and redness ? Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver

The two types of truth and computability

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
or false and are always are such. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: William R. Buckley Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-15, 16:58:05 Subject

primitives as logical concepts (which are taken then as real)

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
to include at least the categories of mind, heart and body). Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08

Re: Re: Homunculi

2012-08-17 Thread Roger
Hi Bruno Marchal More simply, materialism contains no concept of a singular focussed agent, the self. So it cannot explain very much, for the self perceives, feels, and does. It is me, although in the living flesh, something radically different. Roger , rclo...@verizon.net 8/17/2012

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