subject:"AI"

2024-07-09 Thread 'spudboy...@aol.com' via Everything List

>
> When you "take mushrooms", what happens is for your consciousness to
> interact with the other consciousnesses.
>

What other consciousnesses?  What specifically happens when someone "takes
mushrooms" for the first time that leads them to have a quality of
consciousness that is unlike anything they've experienced before that?  How
do you explain that particular scenario in terms of interactions with other
self-referencing entities?

And, how does that explanation dispense with the idea that the (apparent)
ingesting of mushrooms caused the change in consciousness?

On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 1:14 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> @Terren. "Mushrooms" are just an appearance in your consciousness that
> stand for other consciousnesses. When you "take mushrooms", what happens is
> for your consciousness to interact with the other consciousnesses. Also
> "internet" is a similar appearance in your consciousness. And when you
> "enter the internet", your consciousness changes from interacting with
> other consciousnesses.
>
> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 19:02:48 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:
>
>> So you're saying if I take a high dose of magic mushrooms and my
>> consciousness changes, it is so obvious that a 5yo kid would understand it,
>> that the mushrooms *do not* cause a change to my consciousness?  That me
>> taking mushrooms an hour before the changes to my consciousness begin is
>> mere correlation?
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 11:51 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> @Terren. Based on your logic, if when you get outside in the rain is
>>> cold and when you are inside the house is warm => house generates
>>> consciousness. Correlation is not causation. This even a 5-years old kid
>>> understands.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 17:39:34 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 7:01 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> @Quentin @Stathis. That's where the whole magical belief in AI comes
>>>>> from, from believing that you are robots. Well.. breaking news: you are
>>>>> not! You are God. "Brain" is just a picture that you as God dreams in this
>>>>> dream. It doesn't actually exist.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe so. But if it is true that our brains are just part of the dream,
>>>> then how do you account for the seeming one-way causality between the brain
>>>> and the mind?  Brain damage, drugs, transcranial magnetic stimulation, etc,
>>>> all give credence to the existence of the brain, and by the same token all
>>>> those examples are difficult to explain from the idealist perspective
>>>> you're advocating for.
>>>>
>>>> You can say that's all part of the dream, but that's an answer that
>>>> stops all further questions. The "hard problem" of idealism is: why does
>>>> the dream of God appear to be so lawful and ordered?  Why does the dream
>>>> necessitate things like brains that appear to have causal influence on our
>>>> consciousness?
>>>>
>>>> Terren
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 11:24:45 UTC+3 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 at 18:04, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic
>>>>>>> instructions such as
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> if (color == white) {
>>>>>>>print ("Is day");
>>>>>>> } else {
>>>>>>>print ("Is night");
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do
>>>>>>> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical 
>>>>>>> entities
>>>>>>> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is what humans do also: their brains follow deterministic rules,
>>>>>> and it results in the complex behaviour that we see.

New AI training tech is 13 times faster and 10 times more power efficient

2024-07-09 Thread John Clark

*New AI training tech is 13 times faster and 10 times more power efficient
— DeepMind's new JEST optimizes training data for impressive gains
<https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intelligence/google-claims-new-ai-training-tech-is-13-times-faster-and-10-times-more-power-efficient-deepminds-new-jest-optimizes-training-data-for-massive-gains?utm_term=B0E130A3-FB83-4898-8071-86AA305566E4&lrh=01da63cc3d9f5f0f930e10d41b9099b85b7a15540b7052a555e92e95d694d51a&utm_campaign=2F4928DB-7559-479A-B06E-4801050D48B1&utm_medium=email&utm_content=2AEB5882-4AF6-47B0-86BA-E5D13A96606E&utm_source=SmartBrief>*

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
xtg

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Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List

@Quentin. Trololol. Do you think I care if you read my papers or not ? 
= Is not my problem that you want to remain ignorant. I did 
my part in providing knowledge to people. Now is people job if they want to 
find the truth or not. Stop thinking yourself important.

On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 20:34:19 UTC+3 Quentin Anciaux wrote:

> What a tool you are... and you're seriously expecting people to read your 
> paper ? Learn humility and come back.
>
> Le mar. 9 juil. 2024, 19:16, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
> everyth...@googlegroups.com> a écrit :
>
>> @Jason. Omggg... I'm a genius. I studied everything. Computer science, 
>> physics, philosophy, economy, sociology, biology, you name it, lol.
>> I use self-reference in the proper way. The reason people are confused is 
>> because of their own low IQ that even confuses them when it comes to tying 
>> their own shoes.
>>
>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 19:27:15 UTC+3 Jason Resch wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 11:50 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> @Jason. Recursion is not self-reference. If you would have read my 
>>>> paper you would have seen that.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You alluded to a familiarity with computer programming. Have you studied 
>>> computer science?
>>>
>>> Is the classical way the Fibonacci sequence is defined not an example of 
>>> self-reference as you use the term? If it's not, then you are using 
>>> "self-reference" in a very non-standard that is sure to confuse a lot of 
>>> people, especially computer scientists.
>>>
>>> Jason 
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 14:42:42 UTC+3 Jason Resch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 4:04 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic 
>>>>>> instructions such as 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if (color == white) {
>>>>>>print ("Is day");
>>>>>> } else {
>>>>>>print ("Is night");
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This was an objection first made by Ada Lovelace. But Turing showed 
>>>>> that even deterministic processes can often surprise us, and behave in 
>>>>> ways 
>>>>> that aren't predictable (without running the computation until it 
>>>>> finishes). E.g., does a machine halt or not?
>>>>>
>>>>> If I give you the program, can you tell me from looking at it what it 
>>>>> will do? You might think you can, but consider if I gave you a program 
>>>>> that 
>>>>> looked for a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture. If and when it 
>>>>> finds 
>>>>> it, the program prints it and then halts. Does the machine given this 
>>>>> program halt or not?
>>>>>
>>>>> You might have an opinion, but if you can't prove it, then you really 
>>>>> don't know. So far no one has been able to prove it one way or the other.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do 
>>>>>> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical 
>>>>>> entities 
>>>>>> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Turing machine and (computability generally) is built on the 
>>>>> notion of recursion. I.e. self-reference. If we are conscious due to 
>>>>> self-reference, then why shouldn't recursive computer programs be 
>>>>> conscious 
>>>>> too?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 06:19:30 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How has your understanding of computer programming helped you avoid 
>>>>>>> being victimized by AI hype?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 5:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via

Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux

What a tool you are... and you're seriously expecting people to read your
paper ? Learn humility and come back.

Le mar. 9 juil. 2024, 19:16, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit :

> @Jason. Omggg... I'm a genius. I studied everything. Computer science,
> physics, philosophy, economy, sociology, biology, you name it, lol.
> I use self-reference in the proper way. The reason people are confused is
> because of their own low IQ that even confuses them when it comes to tying
> their own shoes.
>
> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 19:27:15 UTC+3 Jason Resch wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 11:50 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> @Jason. Recursion is not self-reference. If you would have read my paper
>>> you would have seen that.
>>>
>>
>> You alluded to a familiarity with computer programming. Have you studied
>> computer science?
>>
>> Is the classical way the Fibonacci sequence is defined not an example of
>> self-reference as you use the term? If it's not, then you are using
>> "self-reference" in a very non-standard that is sure to confuse a lot of
>> people, especially computer scientists.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 14:42:42 UTC+3 Jason Resch wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 4:04 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic
>>>>> instructions such as
>>>>>
>>>>> if (color == white) {
>>>>>print ("Is day");
>>>>> } else {
>>>>>print ("Is night");
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This was an objection first made by Ada Lovelace. But Turing showed
>>>> that even deterministic processes can often surprise us, and behave in ways
>>>> that aren't predictable (without running the computation until it
>>>> finishes). E.g., does a machine halt or not?
>>>>
>>>> If I give you the program, can you tell me from looking at it what it
>>>> will do? You might think you can, but consider if I gave you a program that
>>>> looked for a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture. If and when it finds
>>>> it, the program prints it and then halts. Does the machine given this
>>>> program halt or not?
>>>>
>>>> You might have an opinion, but if you can't prove it, then you really
>>>> don't know. So far no one has been able to prove it one way or the other.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do
>>>>> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities
>>>>> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Turing machine and (computability generally) is built on the notion
>>>> of recursion. I.e. self-reference. If we are conscious due to
>>>> self-reference, then why shouldn't recursive computer programs be conscious
>>>> too?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 06:19:30 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> How has your understanding of computer programming helped you avoid
>>>>>> being victimized by AI hype?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 5:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People that are victims of the AI hype neither understand computer
>>>>>>> programming nor consciousness.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>> send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d095509d-00c5-4693-ae

Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List

@Jason. Omggg... I'm a genius. I studied everything. Computer science, 
physics, philosophy, economy, sociology, biology, you name it, lol.
I use self-reference in the proper way. The reason people are confused is 
because of their own low IQ that even confuses them when it comes to tying 
their own shoes.

On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 19:27:15 UTC+3 Jason Resch wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 11:50 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> @Jason. Recursion is not self-reference. If you would have read my paper 
>> you would have seen that.
>>
>
> You alluded to a familiarity with computer programming. Have you studied 
> computer science?
>
> Is the classical way the Fibonacci sequence is defined not an example of 
> self-reference as you use the term? If it's not, then you are using 
> "self-reference" in a very non-standard that is sure to confuse a lot of 
> people, especially computer scientists.
>
> Jason 
>
>
>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 14:42:42 UTC+3 Jason Resch wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 4:04 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic 
>>>> instructions such as 
>>>>
>>>> if (color == white) {
>>>>print ("Is day");
>>>> } else {
>>>>print ("Is night");
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>
>>> This was an objection first made by Ada Lovelace. But Turing showed that 
>>> even deterministic processes can often surprise us, and behave in ways that 
>>> aren't predictable (without running the computation until it finishes). 
>>> E.g., does a machine halt or not?
>>>
>>> If I give you the program, can you tell me from looking at it what it 
>>> will do? You might think you can, but consider if I gave you a program that 
>>> looked for a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture. If and when it finds 
>>> it, the program prints it and then halts. Does the machine given this 
>>> program halt or not?
>>>
>>> You might have an opinion, but if you can't prove it, then you really 
>>> don't know. So far no one has been able to prove it one way or the other.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do 
>>>> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities 
>>>> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The Turing machine and (computability generally) is built on the notion 
>>> of recursion. I.e. self-reference. If we are conscious due to 
>>> self-reference, then why shouldn't recursive computer programs be conscious 
>>> too?
>>>
>>>
>>> Jason 
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 06:19:30 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How has your understanding of computer programming helped you avoid 
>>>>> being victimized by AI hype?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 5:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> People that are victims of the AI hype neither understand computer 
>>>>>> programming nor consciousness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, 
>>>>>> send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d095509d-00c5-4693-ae91-af4732e231can%40googlegroups.com
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d095509d-00c5-4693-ae91-af4732e231can%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>>> an email to everything-li...@

Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List

@Terren. "Mushrooms" are just an appearance in your consciousness that 
stand for other consciousnesses. When you "take mushrooms", what happens is 
for your consciousness to interact with the other consciousnesses. Also 
"internet" is a similar appearance in your consciousness. And when you 
"enter the internet", your consciousness changes from interacting with 
other consciousnesses.

On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 19:02:48 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:

> So you're saying if I take a high dose of magic mushrooms and my 
> consciousness changes, it is so obvious that a 5yo kid would understand it, 
> that the mushrooms *do not* cause a change to my consciousness?  That me 
> taking mushrooms an hour before the changes to my consciousness begin is 
> mere correlation?
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 11:51 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> @Terren. Based on your logic, if when you get outside in the rain is cold 
>> and when you are inside the house is warm => house generates consciousness. 
>> Correlation is not causation. This even a 5-years old kid understands.
>>
>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 17:39:34 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 7:01 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> @Quentin @Stathis. That's where the whole magical belief in AI comes 
>>>> from, from believing that you are robots. Well.. breaking news: you are 
>>>> not! You are God. "Brain" is just a picture that you as God dreams in this 
>>>> dream. It doesn't actually exist.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe so. But if it is true that our brains are just part of the dream, 
>>> then how do you account for the seeming one-way causality between the brain 
>>> and the mind?  Brain damage, drugs, transcranial magnetic stimulation, etc, 
>>> all give credence to the existence of the brain, and by the same token all 
>>> those examples are difficult to explain from the idealist perspective 
>>> you're advocating for.  
>>>
>>> You can say that's all part of the dream, but that's an answer that 
>>> stops all further questions. The "hard problem" of idealism is: why does 
>>> the dream of God appear to be so lawful and ordered?  Why does the dream 
>>> necessitate things like brains that appear to have causal influence on our 
>>> consciousness?
>>>
>>> Terren
>>>  
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 11:24:45 UTC+3 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 at 18:04, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic 
>>>>>> instructions such as 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if (color == white) {
>>>>>>print ("Is day");
>>>>>> } else {
>>>>>>print ("Is night");
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do 
>>>>>> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical 
>>>>>> entities 
>>>>>> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is what humans do also: their brains follow deterministic rules, 
>>>>> and it results in the complex behaviour that we see. 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/19faaf74-251d-4e42-9ce6-a1d6d6208fc4n%40googlegroups.com
>>>>  
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/19faaf74-251d-4e42-9ce6-a1d6d6208fc4n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>>
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/9227a08e-4c12-498c-936e-33a2f5c6c38en%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/9227a08e-4c12-498c-936e-33a2f5c6c38en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
>

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Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread Samiya Illias

Allah has not taken any son 
https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2022/09/allah-has-not-taken-any-son.html

The Kingdom & The Throne 
https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2022/02/the-kingdom-throne.html


> On 09-Jul-2024, at 4:01 PM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> @Quentin. Of course I am a magical entity. I am God. And so are you. We are 
> are all one and the same God dreaming infinite dreams.
> 
> @Quentin @Stathis. That's where the whole magical belief in AI comes from, 
> from believing that you are robots. Well.. breaking news: you are not! You 
> are God. "Brain" is just a picture that you as God dreams in this dream. It 
> doesn't actually exist.
> 
>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 11:24:45 UTC+3 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 at 18:04, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List 
>>>  wrote:
>>> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic instructions 
>>> such as 
>>> 
>>> if (color == white) {
>>>print ("Is day");
>>> } else {
>>>print ("Is night");
>>> }
>>> 
>>> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do people 
>>> that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities where 
>>> fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>> 
>> This is what humans do also: their brains follow deterministic rules, and it 
>> results in the complex behaviour that we see. 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Stathis Papaioannou
> 
> -- 
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Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread Jason Resch

On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 11:50 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> @Jason. Recursion is not self-reference. If you would have read my paper
> you would have seen that.
>

You alluded to a familiarity with computer programming. Have you studied
computer science?

Is the classical way the Fibonacci sequence is defined not an example of
self-reference as you use the term? If it's not, then you are using
"self-reference" in a very non-standard that is sure to confuse a lot of
people, especially computer scientists.

Jason


> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 14:42:42 UTC+3 Jason Resch wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 4:04 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic
>>> instructions such as
>>>
>>> if (color == white) {
>>>print ("Is day");
>>> } else {
>>>print ("Is night");
>>> }
>>>
>>
>> This was an objection first made by Ada Lovelace. But Turing showed that
>> even deterministic processes can often surprise us, and behave in ways that
>> aren't predictable (without running the computation until it finishes).
>> E.g., does a machine halt or not?
>>
>> If I give you the program, can you tell me from looking at it what it
>> will do? You might think you can, but consider if I gave you a program that
>> looked for a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture. If and when it finds
>> it, the program prints it and then halts. Does the machine given this
>> program halt or not?
>>
>> You might have an opinion, but if you can't prove it, then you really
>> don't know. So far no one has been able to prove it one way or the other.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do
>>> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities
>>> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>>>
>>
>> The Turing machine and (computability generally) is built on the notion
>> of recursion. I.e. self-reference. If we are conscious due to
>> self-reference, then why shouldn't recursive computer programs be conscious
>> too?
>>
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 06:19:30 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>
>>>> How has your understanding of computer programming helped you avoid
>>>> being victimized by AI hype?
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 5:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> People that are victims of the AI hype neither understand computer
>>>>> programming nor consciousness.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d095509d-00c5-4693-ae91-af4732e231can%40googlegroups.com
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d095509d-00c5-4693-ae91-af4732e231can%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
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>>> .
>>>
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Re: AI hype Not so Hypy!

 I do like neuroscientist Hoffman indeed. But for tidings of comfort and joy, ♪ 
I'm like a Dog returning to his vomit, head's for Physicists and 
Astrophysicists for the Big Honking Explanations. Clark, all this seems 
Panpsychically delicious for you man, 
https://scientificandmedical.net/roger-penrose-on-consciousness/

Universe works like a cosmological neural network, argues new paper


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Universe works like a cosmological neural network, argues new paper

Controversial physics theory says reality around us behaves like a computer 
neural network.
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The Autodidactic Universe


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The Autodidactic Universe

We present an approach to cosmology in which the Universe learns its own 
physical laws. It does so by exploring ...
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Does the human brain resemble the Universe?


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Does the human brain resemble the Universe?

An astrophysicist at the University of Bologna and a neurosurgeon at the 
University of Verona compared the netwo...
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Another Neuro guys paper-Toward a universal theory of consciousness


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Toward a universal theory of consciousness

Abstract. While falsifiability has been broadly discussed as a desirable 
property of a theory of consciousness, ...
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Its in Popular Mechanics Damnit! Like a Love Song, Can't be Wrong!I do follow 
Johannes Klienner at U Munchen tho;Some Scientists Believe the Universe Is 
Conscious


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Some Scientists Believe the Universe Is Conscious

Sounds like a bad trip ... but what if it's true?
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On Tuesday, July 9, 2024 at 12:02:52 PM EDT, Terren Suydam 
 wrote:   

 That reminds me of Donald Hoffman's idea of reality as emerging from the 
interactions of “conscious agents”. These interactions are governed by 
mathematical principles. The apparent solidity and objectivity of the physical 
world are illusions created by the network of interactions among conscious 
agents.


On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 11:52 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List 
 wrote:

@Terren. The dream is ordered because it is a statistical effect of interacting 
consciousnesses.



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Re: AI hype

That reminds me of Donald Hoffman's idea of reality as emerging from the
interactions of “conscious agents”. These interactions are governed by
mathematical principles. The apparent solidity and objectivity of the
physical world are illusions created by the network of interactions among
conscious agents.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 11:52 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> @Terren. The dream is ordered because it is a statistical effect of
> interacting consciousnesses.
>
> --
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5bd005de-3712-4f54-b9c4-e237d77f6a66n%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

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Re: AI hype

So you're saying if I take a high dose of magic mushrooms and my
consciousness changes, it is so obvious that a 5yo kid would understand it,
that the mushrooms *do not* cause a change to my consciousness?  That me
taking mushrooms an hour before the changes to my consciousness begin is
mere correlation?

On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 11:51 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> @Terren. Based on your logic, if when you get outside in the rain is cold
> and when you are inside the house is warm => house generates consciousness.
> Correlation is not causation. This even a 5-years old kid understands.
>
> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 17:39:34 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 7:01 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> @Quentin @Stathis. That's where the whole magical belief in AI comes
>>> from, from believing that you are robots. Well.. breaking news: you are
>>> not! You are God. "Brain" is just a picture that you as God dreams in this
>>> dream. It doesn't actually exist.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe so. But if it is true that our brains are just part of the dream,
>> then how do you account for the seeming one-way causality between the brain
>> and the mind?  Brain damage, drugs, transcranial magnetic stimulation, etc,
>> all give credence to the existence of the brain, and by the same token all
>> those examples are difficult to explain from the idealist perspective
>> you're advocating for.
>>
>> You can say that's all part of the dream, but that's an answer that stops
>> all further questions. The "hard problem" of idealism is: why does the
>> dream of God appear to be so lawful and ordered?  Why does the dream
>> necessitate things like brains that appear to have causal influence on our
>> consciousness?
>>
>> Terren
>>
>>
>>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 11:24:45 UTC+3 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 at 18:04, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic
>>>>> instructions such as
>>>>>
>>>>> if (color == white) {
>>>>>print ("Is day");
>>>>> } else {
>>>>>print ("Is night");
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do
>>>>> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities
>>>>> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is what humans do also: their brains follow deterministic rules,
>>>> and it results in the complex behaviour that we see.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>>>
>>> --
>>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Everything List" group.
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>>>
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>>> .
>>>
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Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List

@Terren. The dream is ordered because it is a statistical effect of 
interacting consciousnesses.

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Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List

@Terren. Based on your logic, if when you get outside in the rain is cold 
and when you are inside the house is warm => house generates consciousness. 
Correlation is not causation. This even a 5-years old kid understands.

On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 17:39:34 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 7:01 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> @Quentin @Stathis. That's where the whole magical belief in AI comes 
>> from, from believing that you are robots. Well.. breaking news: you are 
>> not! You are God. "Brain" is just a picture that you as God dreams in this 
>> dream. It doesn't actually exist.
>>
>
> Maybe so. But if it is true that our brains are just part of the dream, 
> then how do you account for the seeming one-way causality between the brain 
> and the mind?  Brain damage, drugs, transcranial magnetic stimulation, etc, 
> all give credence to the existence of the brain, and by the same token all 
> those examples are difficult to explain from the idealist perspective 
> you're advocating for.  
>
> You can say that's all part of the dream, but that's an answer that stops 
> all further questions. The "hard problem" of idealism is: why does the 
> dream of God appear to be so lawful and ordered?  Why does the dream 
> necessitate things like brains that appear to have causal influence on our 
> consciousness?
>
> Terren
>  
>
>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 11:24:45 UTC+3 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 at 18:04, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic 
>>>> instructions such as 
>>>>
>>>> if (color == white) {
>>>>print ("Is day");
>>>> } else {
>>>>print ("Is night");
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do 
>>>> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities 
>>>> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is what humans do also: their brains follow deterministic rules, 
>>> and it results in the complex behaviour that we see. 
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>>
>> -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>>
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/19faaf74-251d-4e42-9ce6-a1d6d6208fc4n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/19faaf74-251d-4e42-9ce6-a1d6d6208fc4n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
>

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Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List

@Jason. Recursion is not self-reference. If you would have read my paper 
you would have seen that.

On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 14:42:42 UTC+3 Jason Resch wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 4:04 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic instructions 
>> such as 
>>
>> if (color == white) {
>>print ("Is day");
>> } else {
>>print ("Is night");
>> }
>>
>
> This was an objection first made by Ada Lovelace. But Turing showed that 
> even deterministic processes can often surprise us, and behave in ways that 
> aren't predictable (without running the computation until it finishes). 
> E.g., does a machine halt or not?
>
> If I give you the program, can you tell me from looking at it what it will 
> do? You might think you can, but consider if I gave you a program that 
> looked for a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture. If and when it finds 
> it, the program prints it and then halts. Does the machine given this 
> program halt or not?
>
> You might have an opinion, but if you can't prove it, then you really 
> don't know. So far no one has been able to prove it one way or the other.
>
>
>
>
>> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do 
>> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities 
>> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>>
>
> The Turing machine and (computability generally) is built on the notion of 
> recursion. I.e. self-reference. If we are conscious due to self-reference, 
> then why shouldn't recursive computer programs be conscious too?
>
>
> Jason 
>
>
>> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 06:19:30 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:
>>
>>> How has your understanding of computer programming helped you avoid 
>>> being victimized by AI hype?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 5:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> People that are victims of the AI hype neither understand computer 
>>>> programming nor consciousness.
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d095509d-00c5-4693-ae91-af4732e231can%40googlegroups.com
>>>>  
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d095509d-00c5-4693-ae91-af4732e231can%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> -- 
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>>
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>>  
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>> .
>>
>

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Re: AI hype

On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 7:01 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> @Quentin @Stathis. That's where the whole magical belief in AI comes from,
> from believing that you are robots. Well.. breaking news: you are not! You
> are God. "Brain" is just a picture that you as God dreams in this dream. It
> doesn't actually exist.
>

Maybe so. But if it is true that our brains are just part of the dream,
then how do you account for the seeming one-way causality between the brain
and the mind?  Brain damage, drugs, transcranial magnetic stimulation, etc,
all give credence to the existence of the brain, and by the same token all
those examples are difficult to explain from the idealist perspective
you're advocating for.

You can say that's all part of the dream, but that's an answer that stops
all further questions. The "hard problem" of idealism is: why does the
dream of God appear to be so lawful and ordered?  Why does the dream
necessitate things like brains that appear to have causal influence on our
consciousness?

Terren


> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 11:24:45 UTC+3 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 at 18:04, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic
>>> instructions such as
>>>
>>> if (color == white) {
>>>print ("Is day");
>>> } else {
>>>print ("Is night");
>>> }
>>>
>>> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do
>>> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities
>>> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>>>
>>
>> This is what humans do also: their brains follow deterministic rules, and
>> it results in the complex behaviour that we see.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Everything List" group.
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> .
>

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Re: AI chatbots at just 13 watts with no performance loss

2024-07-09 Thread John Clark

On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 5:15 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> *>  Arguments need to be made based on reason, not on robotic plug-in of
> replies.*

Like dismissing AI and Atomically Precise Manufacturing (a.k.a. N
anotechnology) by invoking Santa Claus? By the way, when talking about the
Singularity that is coming in just the next few years, Lucifer may be a
more relevant fictional character then Santa Claus.

 John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
apm
kd0

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Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread Jason Resch

On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 4:04 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic instructions
> such as
>
> if (color == white) {
>print ("Is day");
> } else {
>print ("Is night");
> }
>

This was an objection first made by Ada Lovelace. But Turing showed that
even deterministic processes can often surprise us, and behave in ways that
aren't predictable (without running the computation until it finishes).
E.g., does a machine halt or not?

If I give you the program, can you tell me from looking at it what it will
do? You might think you can, but consider if I gave you a program that
looked for a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture. If and when it finds
it, the program prints it and then halts. Does the machine given this
program halt or not?

You might have an opinion, but if you can't prove it, then you really don't
know. So far no one has been able to prove it one way or the other.

> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do
> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities
> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>

The Turing machine and (computability generally) is built on the notion of
recursion. I.e. self-reference. If we are conscious due to self-reference,
then why shouldn't recursive computer programs be conscious too?

Jason

> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 06:19:30 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:
>
>> How has your understanding of computer programming helped you avoid being
>> victimized by AI hype?
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 5:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> People that are victims of the AI hype neither understand computer
>>> programming nor consciousness.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d095509d-00c5-4693-ae91-af4732e231can%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>> --
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> .
>

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Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread Jason Resch

On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 7:01 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> @Quentin. Of course I am a magical entity. I am God. And so are you. We
> are are all one and the same God dreaming infinite dreams.
>
> @Quentin @Stathis. That's where the whole magical belief in AI comes from,
> from believing that you are robots. Well.. breaking news: you are not! You
> are God. "Brain" is just a picture that you as God dreams in this dream. It
> doesn't actually exist.
>

Is not self-reference a rule? One which according to your own views, all of
reality is based (and therefore all of reality follows)?

Jason




> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 11:24:45 UTC+3 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 at 18:04, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic
>>> instructions such as
>>>
>>> if (color == white) {
>>>print ("Is day");
>>> } else {
>>>print ("Is night");
>>> }
>>>
>>> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do
>>> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities
>>> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>>>
>>
>> This is what humans do also: their brains follow deterministic rules, and
>> it results in the complex behaviour that we see.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>
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> .
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Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List

@Quentin. Of course I am a magical entity. I am God. And so are you. We are 
are all one and the same God dreaming infinite dreams.

@Quentin @Stathis. That's where the whole magical belief in AI comes from, 
from believing that you are robots. Well.. breaking news: you are not! You 
are God. "Brain" is just a picture that you as God dreams in this dream. It 
doesn't actually exist.

On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 11:24:45 UTC+3 Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 at 18:04, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic instructions 
>> such as 
>>
>> if (color == white) {
>>print ("Is day");
>> } else {
>>print ("Is night");
>> }
>>
>> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do 
>> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities 
>> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>>
>
> This is what humans do also: their brains follow deterministic rules, and 
> it results in the complex behaviour that we see. 
>
>
> -- 
> Stathis Papaioannou
>

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Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread Stathis Papaioannou

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 at 18:04, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic instructions
> such as
>
> if (color == white) {
>print ("Is day");
> } else {
>print ("Is night");
> }
>
> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do
> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities
> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>

This is what humans do also: their brains follow deterministic rules, and
it results in the complex behaviour that we see.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux

Obviously you believe you are a magical entity,  you're a self righteous
man without an ounce of humility... no need to read a paper made by such
entity.

Quentin

Le mar. 9 juil. 2024, 10:04, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit :

> lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic instructions
> such as
>
> if (color == white) {
>print ("Is day");
> } else {
>print ("Is night");
> }
>
> There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do
> people that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities
> where fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?
>
> On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 06:19:30 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:
>
>> How has your understanding of computer programming helped you avoid being
>> victimized by AI hype?
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 5:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> People that are victims of the AI hype neither understand computer
>>> programming nor consciousness.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d095509d-00c5-4693-ae91-af4732e231can%40googlegroups.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d095509d-00c5-4693-ae91-af4732e231can%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>> --
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> .
>

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Re: AI hype

2024-07-09 Thread 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List

lol ? By knowing that all AI does is to follow deterministic instructions 
such as 

if (color == white) {
   print ("Is day");
} else {
   print ("Is night");
}

There is no reason involved. Just blindly following instructions. Do people 
that believe in the AI believe that computers are magical entities where 
fairies live and they sprout rainbows ?

On Tuesday 9 July 2024 at 06:19:30 UTC+3 Terren Suydam wrote:

> How has your understanding of computer programming helped you avoid being 
> victimized by AI hype?
>
> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 5:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> People that are victims of the AI hype neither understand computer 
>> programming nor consciousness.
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d095509d-00c5-4693-ae91-af4732e231can%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d095509d-00c5-4693-ae91-af4732e231can%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
>

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Re: AI hype

2024-07-08 Thread Terren Suydam

How has your understanding of computer programming helped you avoid being
victimized by AI hype?

On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 5:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> People that are victims of the AI hype neither understand computer
> programming nor consciousness.
>
> --
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d095509d-00c5-4693-ae91-af4732e231can%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>

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AI hype

2024-07-08 Thread 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List

People that are victims of the AI hype neither understand computer 
programming nor consciousness.

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Re: AI chatbots at just 13 watts with no performance loss

2024-07-08 Thread 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List

Not all claims of impossibility can be refuted with the "flying machines" 
argument. Arguments need to be made based on reason, not on robotic plug-in 
of replies.

On Monday 8 July 2024 at 22:00:31 UTC+3 John Clark wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 2:42 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> *> Saying computers are coming closer to becoming as smart as humans is 
>> like saying that by climbing a tree you get closer to reaching the Moon. *
>>
>
> Yeah, and this entire Internet thing is just a silly fad. And the same is 
> true for horseless carriages, flying machines and TV.
>
>  
>
>> *>Also, brain doesn't exist.*
>>
>
> Okey-dokey.  
>  John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis 
> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
> kd0
>
>
>
>  
>
>> "
>>
>>> I've heard it said that although computers are coming closer to 
>>> becoming as smart as a human biological brain, when it comes to power 
>>> efficiency Biology has a massive advantage. There are even scare stories 
>>> that in five years AI will be consuming 25% of the USA's entire electrical 
>>> power and just a few years later all of it. Well take a look at this! 
>>>
>>> *AI researchers run AI chatbots at just 13 watts with no performance 
>>> loss — stripping matrix multiplication from LLMs yields massive gains 
>>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intelligence/ai-researchers-found-a-way-to-run-llms-at-a-lightbulb-esque-13-watts-with-no-loss-in-performance?utm_term=B0E130A3-FB83-4898-8071-86AA305566E4&lrh=01da63cc3d9f5f0f930e10d41b9099b85b7a15540b7052a555e92e95d694d51a&utm_campaign=2F4928DB-7559-479A-B06E-4801050D48B1&utm_medium=email&utm_content=2B26C867-7AB8-43E7-B01B-D1314D051DE6&utm_source=SmartBrief>*
>>>
>>>
>>> tlt
>>>
>>
>>

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Re: AI chatbots at just 13 watts with no performance loss

2024-07-08 Thread John Clark

On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 2:42 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

*> Saying computers are coming closer to becoming as smart as humans is
> like saying that by climbing a tree you get closer to reaching the Moon. *
>

Yeah, and this entire Internet thing is just a silly fad. And the same is
true for horseless carriages, flying machines and TV.


> *>Also, brain doesn't exist.*
>

Okey-dokey.
 John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
kd0





> "
>
>> I've heard it said that although computers are coming closer to becoming
>> as smart as a human biological brain, when it comes to power efficiency
>> Biology has a massive advantage. There are even scare stories that in five
>> years AI will be consuming 25% of the USA's entire electrical power and
>> just a few years later all of it. Well take a look at this!
>>
>> *AI researchers run AI chatbots at just 13 watts with no performance loss
>> — stripping matrix multiplication from LLMs yields massive gains
>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intelligence/ai-researchers-found-a-way-to-run-llms-at-a-lightbulb-esque-13-watts-with-no-loss-in-performance?utm_term=B0E130A3-FB83-4898-8071-86AA305566E4&lrh=01da63cc3d9f5f0f930e10d41b9099b85b7a15540b7052a555e92e95d694d51a&utm_campaign=2F4928DB-7559-479A-B06E-4801050D48B1&utm_medium=email&utm_content=2B26C867-7AB8-43E7-B01B-D1314D051DE6&utm_source=SmartBrief>*
>>
>>
>> tlt
>>
>
>

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Re: AI chatbots at just 13 watts with no performance loss

2024-07-08 Thread 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List

Saying computers are coming closer to becoming as smart as humans is like 
saying that by climbing a tree you get closer to reaching the Moon. 
Trololol.
Also, brain doesn't exist. "Brain" is just an idea in consciousness. This 
is where the whole confusion about robots reaching us comes from.
For more details see my papers, like "How Self-Reference Builds the World": 
https://philpeople.org/profiles/cosmin-visan

On Thursday 27 June 2024 at 15:54:09 UTC+3 John Clark wrote:

> I've heard it said that although computers are coming closer to becoming 
> as smart as a human biological brain, when it comes to power efficiency 
> Biology has a massive advantage. There are even scare stories that in five 
> years AI will be consuming 25% of the USA's entire electrical power and 
> just a few years later all of it. Well take a look at this! 
>
> *AI researchers run AI chatbots at just 13 watts with no performance loss 
> — stripping matrix multiplication from LLMs yields massive gains 
> <https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intelligence/ai-researchers-found-a-way-to-run-llms-at-a-lightbulb-esque-13-watts-with-no-loss-in-performance?utm_term=B0E130A3-FB83-4898-8071-86AA305566E4&lrh=01da63cc3d9f5f0f930e10d41b9099b85b7a15540b7052a555e92e95d694d51a&utm_campaign=2F4928DB-7559-479A-B06E-4801050D48B1&utm_medium=email&utm_content=2B26C867-7AB8-43E7-B01B-D1314D051DE6&utm_source=SmartBrief>*
>
> John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis 
> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
> tlt
>
>
>

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(bbc) AI drives 48% increase in Google emissions

2024-07-05 Thread 'Tomasz Rola' via Everything List

So, there is a bit for improvement, I wonder what they will be saying
two years from now? Bill Gates claims AI will not drive energy
consumption six-fold but rather like six percent.

[

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c51yvz51k2xo

]


-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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Ray Kurzweil AI and What Comes Next

2024-06-28 Thread John Clark

*Ray Kurzweil is brilliant, as usual, in this talk; the man has the best
record of correctly predicting technological progress of anybody I've ever
heard of. I'm about halfway through his new book. *

*By the way, it's interesting that during last night's presidential debate
neither the old man nor the con man said one word about AI, but one of them
will be the most powerful man in the world until January 20, 2029 , and AI
will by far be the most important issue any president will need to face
between now and then. *
The Last 6 Decades of AI — and What Comes Next | Ray Kurzweil | TED
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEztHu4NHrs>

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
bld

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AI chatbots at just 13 watts with no performance loss

2024-06-27 Thread John Clark

I've heard it said that although computers are coming closer to becoming as
smart as a human biological brain, when it comes to power efficiency
Biology has a massive advantage. There are even scare stories that in five
years AI will be consuming 25% of the USA's entire electrical power and
just a few years later all of it. Well take a look at this!

*AI researchers run AI chatbots at just 13 watts with no performance loss —
stripping matrix multiplication from LLMs yields massive gains
<https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intelligence/ai-researchers-found-a-way-to-run-llms-at-a-lightbulb-esque-13-watts-with-no-loss-in-performance?utm_term=B0E130A3-FB83-4898-8071-86AA305566E4&lrh=01da63cc3d9f5f0f930e10d41b9099b85b7a15540b7052a555e92e95d694d51a&utm_campaign=2F4928DB-7559-479A-B06E-4801050D48B1&utm_medium=email&utm_content=2B26C867-7AB8-43E7-B01B-D1314D051DE6&utm_source=SmartBrief>*

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
tlt

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An AI has found the best Iron-based high-temperature superconductor

2024-06-10 Thread John Clark

Iron based Superconductors are better than conventional Niobium-Tin
superconductors because they work at higher temperatures and in stronger
magnetic fields , and they're better than copper based high temperature
superconductors that were discovered about 30 years ago because they stop
working in moderately strong magnetic fields. An AI has found the best
Iron-based high-temperature superconductor anybody has discovered, it's a
compound made of the common elements Iron Barium Arsenic and Potassium. It
can produce a magnetic field of over 50 Tesla, more than twice as strong as
the best low temperature Niobium Superconductor and the best previous Iron
superconductor.

This is from the June 7 issue of the journal Nature:


Superstrength permanent magnets with iron based superconductors by data-
and research driven process design
<https://www.nature.com/articles/s41427-024-00549-5.pdf>

 John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
scn

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A list of AI papers that may be of interest...

2024-06-08 Thread Dylan Distasio

Someone asked the head of OpenAI for a list of papers to get up to speed on
the state of the art in AI.   It can be found at the link below for those
interested, and he argues if you are able to digest all of them, you will
be in a good place to understand ~90+% of the state of the art:

Ilya 30u30 (arc.net)
<https://arc.net/folder/D0472A20-9C20-4D3F-B145-D2865C0A9FEE>

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California is considering a bill to regulate AI

2024-05-09 Thread John Clark

*Personally I think any attempt to regulate or control AI development is
doomed to failure, but like most things I see on Astra Codex Ten they
closely examine all the arguments pro and con about any issue in a rational
unbiased way.*

*California is considering a bill to regulate AI *
<https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/asteriskzvi-on-californias-ai-bill?utm_source=substack&publication_id=89120&post_id=144429673&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&utm_campaign=email-share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&r=6x3nn&triedRedirect=true>

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>

jjz

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Fwd: AI has unblocked progress toward advanced nanotechnology

2024-04-01 Thread John Clark

-- Forwarded message -
From: Eric Drexler 
Date: Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 5:40 PM
Subject: AI has unblocked progress toward advanced nanotechnology
To: 


Deep learning has enabled breakthroughs in protein engineering, opening a
path to developing molecular machinery for transformative nanotechnologies.
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    ͏     ͏     ͏     ͏     ͏     ͏     ͏     
Forwarded this email? Subscribe here
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for more
AI has unblocked progress toward advanced nanotechnology
<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=2153125&post_id=143107837&utm_source=post-email-title&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=6x3nn&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoxMTYyMjA4MywicG9zdF9pZCI6MTQzMTA3ODM3LCJpYXQiOjE3MTE5MjEyMTUsImV4cCI6MTcxNDUxMzIxNSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTIxNTMxMjUiLCJzdWIiOiJwb3N0LXJlYWN0aW9uIn0.r0z6-MN8AX5Ubk5dB9BpooEEGFbb7x5vLjl2251jS8E>Deep
learning has enabled breakthroughs in protein engineering, opening a path
to developing molecular machinery for transformative nanotechnologies.

Mar 31

<https://substack.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.56OghalPRsyhI4GKoEt7lOAMbZyInKmZZCVTx8HUPZs?&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email>

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*Please take note:*

*For most practical purposes, the prospects I outline in this article can
be ignored. What matters to the rest of this project
<https://substack.com/redirect/341e3503-50aa-4f28-aec4-c2b5c849f2b8?j=eyJ1IjoiNngzbm4ifQ.I1PMvYo4mI3PquTDRhL5Dev-9_ouIq3kw6ZhrVNsy8o>
is updating perceived policy options to better align with reality
<https://substack.com/redirect/5e85af8b-37b8-444b-beec-7f2c684416e6?j=eyJ1IjoiNngzbm4ifQ.I1PMvYo4mI3PquTDRhL5Dev-9_ouIq3kw6ZhrVNsy8o>,
but expectations based on other, more mundane AI-enabled advances are
well-enough aligned to do most of the work. Think of this article as a
heads-up, not a key argument.*
--

To understand the present situation calls for some history:

Thanks for reading AI Prospects: Toward Global Goal Convergence! Subscribe
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I

Re: AI and Hollywood

2024-02-24 Thread Samiya Illias

The Words of Allah ﷻ, our Lord 
https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2022/07/transhumanism-ii.html 


> On 24-Feb-2024, at 10:15 PM, John Clark  wrote:
> 
> 
> After seeing how good OpenAI's program "Sora" is at creating photorealistic 
> video, movie maker Tyler Perry decided to cancel his plans to build a $800 
> million extension to his existing movie studio. He says: 
> 
> 
> "I no longer would have to travel to locations. If I wanted to be in the snow 
> in Colorado, it’s text. If I wanted to write a scene on the moon, it’s text, 
> and this AI can generate it like nothing. If I wanted to have two people in 
> the living room in the mountains, I don’t have to build a set in the 
> mountains, I don’t have to put a set on my lot. I can sit in an office and do 
> this with a computer, which is shocking to me. [...] Everything right now is 
> so up in the air. It’s so malleable. The technology’s moving so quickly. I 
> feel like everybody in the industry is running a hundred miles an hour to try 
> and catch up, to try and put in guardrails and to try and put in safety belts 
> to keep livelihoods afloat. But me, just like every other studio in town, 
> we’re all trying to figure it all out. I think we’re all trying to find the 
> answers as we go, and it’s changing every day — and it’s not just our 
> industry, but it’s every industry that AI will be affecting, from accountants 
> to architects. [...]  I am very, very concerned that in the near future, a 
> lot of jobs are going to be lost. I really, really feel that very strongly."
> 
> After Seeing OpenAI’s Sora, Tyler Perry Cancelled Building an $800m Studio
> 
> 
>   John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> 
> asq
> 
> 
> 
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AI and Hollywood

2024-02-24 Thread John Clark

After seeing how good OpenAI's program "Sora" is at creating photorealistic
video, movie maker Tyler Perry decided to cancel his plans to build a $800
million extension to his existing movie studio. He says:

*"I no longer would have to travel to locations. If I wanted to be in the
snow in Colorado, it’s text. If I wanted to write a scene on the moon, it’s
text, and this AI can generate it like nothing. If I wanted to have two
people in the living room in the mountains, I don’t have to build a set in
the mountains, I don’t have to put a set on my lot. I can sit in an office
and do this with a computer, which is shocking to me. [...] Everything
right now is so up in the air. It’s so malleable. The technology’s moving
so quickly. I feel like everybody in the industry is running a hundred
miles an hour to try and catch up, to try and put in guardrails and to try
and put in safety belts to keep livelihoods afloat. But me, just like every
other studio in town, we’re all trying to figure it all out. I think we’re
all trying to find the answers as we go, and it’s changing every day — and
it’s not just our industry, but it’s every industry that AI will be
affecting, from accountants to architects. [...] I am very, very concerned
that in the near future, a lot of jobs are going to be lost. I really,
really feel that very strongly."*

After Seeing OpenAI’s Sora, Tyler Perry Cancelled Building an $800m Studio
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOJQkueap-A>

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>

asq

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Groq, a chip optimized for AI

2024-02-21 Thread John Clark

You should take a look at the website Groq  , in it you
can try out both the AIs LLama and  Maxtral, I think  LLama is better but
neither of them are as good as Gemini or GPT-4, and the Groq Company does
not make either one of them because Groq is a hardware company, they are
the first to make a chip that was optimized from the ground up to work with
large language models. The amazing thing is not the quality of the answers
but the incredible speed of delivery. The company is trying to demonstrate
the superiority of their chip and I think they've done that, the only
reason they didn't use Gemini or GPT-4 in the demonstration is that they
are not open source, but LLama and Maxtral are. They have the potential to
give Nvidia some strong competition. Incidentally Elon Musk has come up
with something he calls "Grok" but this has nothing to do with that, in
fact "Groq" has threatened to sue Musk if he doesn't change the name
because they're so similar.

  John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

tva

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Money and how AI companies intend to obtain it so they can improve their product

2024-02-18 Thread John Clark

OpenAI, the company that created GPT-4, just announced a deal with the
venture capital firm Thrive Capital that would value the company at at
least $80 billion. Instead of using a traditional funding round the deal
would allow employees to cash out their shares in OpenAI. Other AI
companies are also raising lots of cash for further research and
development:

OpenAI competitor Anthropic has raised $6 billion from Google and Amazon.
Inflection AI, started by a former Google researcher, has raised $1.5
billion.
And Cohere, started by a different Google researcher, has raised $440
million.

 John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
hjx

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AI used to decipher the text of 2,000-year-old charred papyrus scrolls

2024-02-07 Thread John Clark

Artificial intelligence is getting so good it can now extract useful
information even from highly degraded material, and this should give some
encouragement to those who plan to be cryogenically preserved. In 79 AD
Mount Vesuvius erupted engulfing the towns of Pompeii and Herculaneum. It
also burned up a library containing thousands of scrolls, reducing them to
tightly rolled upcarbonized lumps. Nevertheless an advanced AI was able to
read about 5% of the information in them.

AI used to decipher the text of 2,000-year-old charred papyrus scrolls
<https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00346-8?utm_source=Live+Audience&utm_campaign=4030a2d34e-briefing-dy-20240206&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b27a691814-4030a2d34e-50169436>

  John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
phv

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DeepMind’s AlphaGeometry AI

2024-01-24 Thread John Clark

I found this to be absolutely amazing! I already knew that AlphaGeometry
could solve geometry problems almost as well as the gold medal winners of
the International Mathematical Olympiad, but until now I didn't know that
the AI had learned geometry all on its own without using any human data.
This intensifies my belief that the next five years will be the most
critical time in the entire history of the human species, and it also
intensified the sinking feeling I started to feel last night when I learned
of the results of the New Hampshire Republican primary.

*DeepMind’s AlphaGeometry AI: 100,000,000 Examples!*
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKF0QgxmGKs>

  John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
dts

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Re: What company is putting the most emphasis on AI?

2024-01-22 Thread John Clark

On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 4:25 PM Brent Meeker  wrote:

> * > Apple makes it's own chips for it's computer, the Apple M2 for example
> which has equivalent power to mid-range consumer Nvidia graphic chips.
> Maybe they even have specific internal versions for running AI
> models. Google also makes it's own tensor chips specifically for AI.*
>

Actually Apple and Google design their own chips but they do not make them,
neither does Nvidia, the Taiwan company TSMC makes the chips, in fact they
make nearly everybody's chips. About the only company that still designs
and manufactures their own chips is Intel.  TSMC has promised its customers
that it will never design a chip, it will only manufacture them, and by
specializing it has learned to be very very good at it.   But I agree
Nvidia is unlikely to keep its virtual monopoly on AI chips for very long.

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
vnc

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This is the dangerous AI that got Sam Altman fired.

2023-12-31 Thread John Clark

This is the dangerous AI that got Sam Altman fired.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXemEDZA_Ms>

  John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>

saf

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A robot controlled by an AI

2023-12-20 Thread John Clark

Making Chat (ro)Bots 

  John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

air

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The first (but not the last) scientific discovery made by an AI

2023-12-16 Thread John Clark

The people at Google DeepMind have made a new AI they call "FunSearch",
apparently an abbreviation for “searching in the function space”. It has
found the most efficient algorithm known for solving the "cap set problem"
which is about finding the largest set of points in space where no three
points form a straight line, and the "bin packing problem" which is about
finding the best way to pack items of different sizes into containers of
different sizes. Both could have practical applications in data compression.

FunSearch works a bit differently than other AI's, when given a
mathematical problem instead of finding the solution it tries to write a
computer program that can solve that type of problem. And there are two
parts to FunSearch, one part is a large language model that churns out a
bunch of different programs which it then send to the second part, an
evaluator, which rejects the vast majority of them but sends the best one
or two back to the large language model to try to improve them. And the
process is repeated many times. Sort of reminds me of what human engineers
do when they brainstorm, everybody starts suggesting possible solutions to
a problem and most of the solutions are lousy, but a few might have
possibilities and somebody suggests a slight improvement to it and so on.

Pushmeet Kohli, the head of AI for science at DeepMind said:

*"Instead of generating a solution, FunSearch generates a program that
finds the solution. A solution to a specific problem might give me no
insight into how to solve other related problems. But a program that finds
the solution, that’s something a human being can read and interpret and
hopefully thereby generate ideas for the next problem and the next and the
next. When we started the project there was no indication that it would
produce something that’s genuinely new. As far as we know, this is the
first time that a genuine, new scientific discovery has been made by a
large language model.”*

This technique works best for things like pure math and computer science,
it wouldn't work for biology because that needs lab work.

Mathematical discoveries from program search with large language models
<https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06924-6>

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>

qb.

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Re: Google's Gemini has dethroned GPT-4 as the top AI.

2023-12-09 Thread Tomasz Rola

On Wed, Dec 06, 2023 at 05:08:16PM -0500, John Clark wrote:
> A few hours ago google gave details on their AI called "Gemini" and I find
> this video to be absolutely incredible! If this isn't Artificial General
> Intelligence then what is?

Bright (or intelligent or clever or wise) people are not always
recognised as such by their contemporaries (quite possibly, many are
never recognised, because their words are let go and forgotten, so
cannot be later recalled and re-evaluated). Since so many
contemporaries recognise Chad Gepettos as intelligent, what does it
say about contemporaries and Chads?

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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Google's Gemini has dethroned GPT-4 as the top AI.

2023-12-06 Thread John Clark

A few hours ago google gave details on their AI called "Gemini" and I find
this video to be absolutely incredible! If this isn't Artificial General
Intelligence then what is?

Hands-on with Gemini: Interacting with multimodal AI
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIZAiXYceBI>

  John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
y6d

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Open AI whistleblower ?

2023-11-19 Thread John Clark

OpenAl Secretly Achieves AGI Internally [Whistleblower]


John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

o9y

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Why was Sam Altman fired from open AI?

2023-11-19 Thread John Clark

The day before Sam Altman, the head of Open AI, was fired,  he said he
had "*witnessed
the frontier of knowledge being pushed back four times in my experience at
Open AI, and the last time was recently a couple weeks ago*".  He didn't
give any details about what he was talking about but my theory, and I could
be completely wrong, is that the company had internally developed an AGI,
and Altman wanted to rapidly develop it further while others in the
company, especially Ilya Sutskever didn't because they were afraid of it.
And Altman lost the argument and lost the company as a result.
John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
ecx

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Re: Cryptography could help us figure out if a photograph is real or an AI fake

On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 3:12 PM Jason Resch  wrote:

*> GPS works entirely passively on the receiver side. There would be no
> external validation of the GPS coordinates.*
>

I know, but I don't think it would be very difficult to add that
functionality. Or you could have the cell phone providers do it, although
I'd trust the GPS people more.

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

nvd


>

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Re: Cryptography could help us figure out if a photograph is real or an AI fake

On Tue, Nov 7, 2023, 3:04 PM John Clark  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 1:59 PM Jason Resch  wrote:
>
>
> *> How does Apple (or whoever is signing the image and its metadata) know
>> it was taken by an iphone at a particular location?*
>>
>
> Regardless of how the picture was  produced, the GPS timestamp created by
> the GPS people can verify exactly when it was made, and can verify where
> the picture was claimed to have been made.
>

GPS works entirely passively on the receiver side. There would be no
external validation of the GPS coordinates.


And Apple Corporation can verify that the iPhone that was supposed to have
> taken the picture has been registered to Mr. Joe Blow. So if the picture is
> an embarrassing picture of a politician and if the picture is phony then
> Mr. Blow must be involved.  Mr. Blow is either an innocent bystander who
> got his iPhone hacked and his secret key stolen, or he is actively engaged
> in deception because he wants the politician to lose the next election.
> But if there's no evidence of any hacking and if Mr. Blow has no history of
> criminality and seems pretty apolitical and if it's not impossible that the
> politician could have been at that place at that time, then it would be
> reasonable to conclude that the photograph was real.
>

Yes, and note, that again it reduces entirely to whatever trust you have or
don't in Mr. Blow. Apple adds no additional trust to the veracity of the
images, it only serves in establishing the identity of Mr. Blow. But there
are better and existing schemes for this which don't require sending all
your images to Apple (certificate authorities).


>
> That's certainly an improvement to what we have now;  a photograph with
> no provenance at all, an anonymous person just posts a picture on the
> Internet with no hint about where or when the picture was taken or by who.
>

I agree. But it's important to recognize what problems cryptography does it
doesn't solve. It can solve the problem of provenance (who generated the
image) but it can't solve the more general problem of is this a deep fake
or not.

Jason



>
>   John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> 
> qoz
>
> q0z
>
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Re: Cryptography could help us figure out if a photograph is real or an AI fake

On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 1:59 PM Jason Resch wrote:

*> How does Apple (or whoever is signing the image and its metadata) know
> it was taken by an iphone at a particular location?*
>

Regardless of how the picture was produced, the GPS timestamp created by
the GPS people can verify exactly when it was made, and can verify where
the picture was claimed to have been made. And Apple Corporation can verify
that the iPhone that was supposed to have taken the picture has been
registered to Mr. Joe Blow. So if the picture is an embarrassing picture of
a politician and if the picture is phony then Mr. Blow must be involved.
Mr. Blow is either an innocent bystander who got his iPhone hacked and his
secret key stolen, or he is actively engaged in deception because he wants
the politician to lose the next election. But if there's no evidence of
any hacking and if Mr. Blow has no history of criminality and seems pretty
apolitical and if it's not impossible that the politician could have been
at that place at that time, then it would be reasonable to conclude that
the photograph was real.

That's certainly an improvement to what we have now; a photograph with no
provenance at all, an anonymous person just posts a picture on the Internet
with no hint about where or when the picture was taken or by who.

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at Extropolis

qoz

q0z

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Re: Cryptography could help us figure out if a photograph is real or an AI fake

On Tue, Nov 7, 2023, 1:28 PM John Clark  wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 1:06 PM Jason Resch  wrote:
>
> >> I don't care if Joe Blow signs it or not with his private key that's
>>> on his iPhone because I have no reason to trust Mr. Blow. I want the Apple
>>> Corporation and the people who run the GPS satellites to sign a hash
>>> function of the picture and the GPS data with their private keys, and their
>>> private keys are not on anybody's phone, they're locked up somewhere in a
>>> deep underground vault, or the cyber security equivalent.
>>>
>>
>> *> But how would Apple, in your scenario, authenticate the picture was
>> really taken from the camera of an iPhone?*
>>
>
> The person claims the picture was taken by an iPhone, if he is lying about
> that then that is a very strong reason to suspect the picture is phony.
>

How does Apple (or whoever is signing the image and its metadata) know it
was taken by an iphone at a particular location?

Presumably, if the signing key is kept in some secure location, there will
have to be a remotely invocable API, which accepts from the sender, any
possible image data and any valid GPS coordinates, etc.

By what means can the signer verify that the data provided was captured
from a camera and not generated or manipulated? I see no way to solve this
problem.

Jason


Why else would he lie about it?  And even if I couldn't be sure how the
> picture was made I'd still know when and where it was made. So you couldn't
> claim to have a compromising picture of me when I was a teenager, or claim
> to have a picture of me taken in Bangkok the day before yesterday when I
> can prove that the day before yesterday I was in Las Vegas.
>
>  John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> 
> ilv
>
>
>
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> .
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Re: Cryptography could help us figure out if a photograph is real or an AI fake

On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 1:06 PM Jason Resch  wrote:

>> I don't care if Joe Blow signs it or not with his private key that's on
>> his iPhone because I have no reason to trust Mr. Blow. I want the Apple
>> Corporation and the people who run the GPS satellites to sign a hash
>> function of the picture and the GPS data with their private keys, and their
>> private keys are not on anybody's phone, they're locked up somewhere in a
>> deep underground vault, or the cyber security equivalent.
>>
>
> *> But how would Apple, in your scenario, authenticate the picture was
> really taken from the camera of an iPhone?*
>

The person claims the picture was taken by an iPhone, if he is lying about
that then that is a very strong reason to suspect the picture is phony. Why
else would he lie about it?  And even if I couldn't be sure how the picture
was made I'd still know when and where it was made. So you couldn't claim
to have a compromising picture of me when I was a teenager, or claim to
have a picture of me taken in Bangkok the day before yesterday when I can
prove that the day before yesterday I was in Las Vegas.

 John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

ilv

>

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Re: Cryptography could help us figure out if a photograph is real or an AI fake

On Tue, Nov 7, 2023, 12:31 PM John Clark  wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 11:54 AM Jason Resch  wrote:
>
> >> I agree, but I think most people, myself included, would trust that
>>> the entire GPS satellite system is unlikely to be part of some grand
>>> conspiracy of deception, nor is it likely that the Apple Corporation is
>>> stupid enough to do so either because if such deception was ever made
>>> public, and secrets that huge can never be kept for long, it would be the
>>> ruin of the trillion dollar company.  At any rate I'd certainly trust
>>> them more than I'd trust any politician. Or Fox News.
>>>
>>
>>
>> *> I don't know how feasible it would be for  any device maker to prevent
>> someone from extracting a private key from a hardware device which is
>> already is in the hands of the person who seeks to extract it.*
>>
>
> I don't care if Joe Blow signs it or not with his private key that's on
> his iPhone because I have no reason to trust Mr. Blow. I want the Apple
> Corporation and the people who run the GPS satellites to sign a hash
> function of the picture and the GPS data with their private keys, and their
> private keys are not on anybody's phone, they're locked up somewhere in a
> deep underground vault, or the cyber security equivalent.
>

But how would Apple, in your scenario, authenticate the picture was really
taken from the camera of an iPhone?

Jason



Well OK, it's theoretically possible that anybody's secret key can get
> hacked, so even that isn't 100% secure, but then nothing is. However I
> think such a scheme could provide pretty good evidence that a picture was
> genuine.
>
>  John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> 
>
> los
>
>
>>> --
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Re: Cryptography could help us figure out if a photograph is real or an AI fake

On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 11:54 AM Jason Resch  wrote:

>> I agree, but I think most people, myself included, would trust that the
>> entire GPS satellite system is unlikely to be part of some grand conspiracy
>> of deception, nor is it likely that the Apple Corporation is stupid enough
>> to do so either because if such deception was ever made public, and secrets
>> that huge can never be kept for long, it would be the ruin of the trillion
>> dollar company.  At any rate I'd certainly trust them more than I'd
>> trust any politician. Or Fox News.
>>
>
>
> *> I don't know how feasible it would be for  any device maker to prevent
> someone from extracting a private key from a hardware device which is
> already is in the hands of the person who seeks to extract it.*
>

I don't care if Joe Blow signs it or not with his private key that's on his
iPhone because I have no reason to trust Mr. Blow. I want the Apple
Corporation and the people who run the GPS satellites to sign a hash
function of the picture and the GPS data with their private keys, and their
private keys are not on anybody's phone, they're locked up somewhere in a
deep underground vault, or the cyber security equivalent.  Well OK, it's
theoretically possible that anybody's secret key can get hacked, so even
that isn't 100% secure, but then nothing is. However I think such a scheme
could provide pretty good evidence that a picture was genuine.

 John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

los

>>

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Re: Cryptography could help us figure out if a photograph is real or an AI fake

On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 10:44 AM John Clark  wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 11:11 AM Jason Resch  wrote:
>
> *> I think such protocols are only useful for verifying whether the image
>> came from an already known and trusted source. I don't see that it could
>> verify whether some content is genuine or not if you didn't already
>> know/trust the entity it is purported to come from (and trust that they
>> would not provide you with false content).*
>>
>
> I agree, but I think most people, myself included, would trust that the
> entire GPS satellite system is unlikely to be part of some grand conspiracy
> of deception, nor is it likely that the Apple Corporation is stupid enough
> to do so either because if such deception was ever made public, and secrets
> that huge can never be kept for long, it would be the ruin of the trillion
> dollar company.  At any rate I'd certainly trust them more than I'd trust
> any politician. Or Fox News.
>


I don't know how feasible it would be for  any device maker to prevent
someone from extracting a private key from a hardware device which is
already is in the hands of the person who seeks to extract it.

There are methods to make it difficult, but I don't think it can be made
impossible. And once one of the keys is removed from the device which
contained it, any extra information, such as GPS coordinates, etc. could be
falsely generated and then signed by that key.

Jason


>
>  John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
> 3ep
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 8:14 AM John Clark  wrote:
>>
>>> Now that AI art is so good it's becoming impossible to determine if a
>>> photograph is real or fake, but a new open-source internet protocol
>>> called "C2PA" may offer a solution. If camera and smartphone makers
>>> agree to do so their products would all have a feature (which I hope you
>>> would be allowed to turn off if you wish) that would make a cryptographic
>>> hash of the picture and, thanks to GPS satellites, also have information on
>>> the time and place the picture was taken, and on the type of camera and
>>> exposure settings. Any alteration to the picture could easily be
>>> determined. And if social media companies cooperated you could even figure
>>> out when it was first posted on them. You could find out all of this stuff
>>> with just one click, it would work something like this:
>>>
>>> What happens if real is actually fake? <https://truepic.com/revel/>
>>>
>>> Of course you could refuse to use C2PA, but if you did that would make
>>> somebody deeply suspicious that your photograph is real.
>>>
>>> Cryptography may offer a solution to the massive AI-labeling problem
>>> <https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/07/28/1076843/cryptography-ai-labeling-problem-c2pa-provenance/>
>>>
>>>
>>> 5tt
>>>
>>>
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Re: Cryptography could help us figure out if a photograph is real or an AI fake

On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 11:11 AM Jason Resch  wrote:

*> I think such protocols are only useful for verifying whether the image
> came from an already known and trusted source. I don't see that it could
> verify whether some content is genuine or not if you didn't already
> know/trust the entity it is purported to come from (and trust that they
> would not provide you with false content).*
>

I agree, but I think most people, myself included, would trust that the
entire GPS satellite system is unlikely to be part of some grand conspiracy
of deception, nor is it likely that the Apple Corporation is stupid enough
to do so either because if such deception was ever made public, and secrets
that huge can never be kept for long, it would be the ruin of the trillion
dollar company.  At any rate I'd certainly trust them more than I'd trust
any politician. Or Fox News.

 John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
3ep






>
> Jason
>
> On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 8:14 AM John Clark  wrote:
>
>> Now that AI art is so good it's becoming impossible to determine if a
>> photograph is real or fake, but a new open-source internet protocol
>> called "C2PA" may offer a solution. If camera and smartphone makers
>> agree to do so their products would all have a feature (which I hope you
>> would be allowed to turn off if you wish) that would make a cryptographic
>> hash of the picture and, thanks to GPS satellites, also have information on
>> the time and place the picture was taken, and on the type of camera and
>> exposure settings. Any alteration to the picture could easily be
>> determined. And if social media companies cooperated you could even figure
>> out when it was first posted on them. You could find out all of this stuff
>> with just one click, it would work something like this:
>>
>> What happens if real is actually fake? <https://truepic.com/revel/>
>>
>> Of course you could refuse to use C2PA, but if you did that would make
>> somebody deeply suspicious that your photograph is real.
>>
>> Cryptography may offer a solution to the massive AI-labeling problem
>> <https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/07/28/1076843/cryptography-ai-labeling-problem-c2pa-provenance/>
>>
>>
>> 5tt
>>
>>
>

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Re: Cryptography could help us figure out if a photograph is real or an AI fake

I think such protocols are only useful for verifying whether the image came
from an already known and trusted source. I don't see that it could verify
whether some content is genuine or not if you didn't already know/trust the
entity it is purported to come from (and trust that they would not provide
you with false content).

Jason

On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 8:14 AM John Clark  wrote:

> Now that AI art is so good it's becoming impossible to determine if a
> photograph is real or fake, but a new open-source internet protocol
> called "C2PA" may offer a solution. If camera and smartphone makers agree
> to do so their products would all have a feature (which I hope you would be
> allowed to turn off if you wish) that would make a cryptographic hash of
> the picture and, thanks to GPS satellites, also have information on the
> time and place the picture was taken, and on the type of camera and
> exposure settings. Any alteration to the picture could easily be
> determined. And if social media companies cooperated you could even figure
> out when it was first posted on them. You could find out all of this stuff
> with just one click, it would work something like this:
>
> What happens if real is actually fake? <https://truepic.com/revel/>
>
> Of course you could refuse to use C2PA, but if you did that would make
> somebody deeply suspicious that your photograph is real.
>
> Cryptography may offer a solution to the massive AI-labeling problem
> <https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/07/28/1076843/cryptography-ai-labeling-problem-c2pa-provenance/>
>
>  John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
> 5tt
>
> --
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Cryptography could help us figure out if a photograph is real or an AI fake