Re: Re: Re: Attacking the brain transplant experiment
Hi Stathis Papaioannou The self is not the brain, which is objective. The self is the subjective or personal view of what the brain does. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/2/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stathis Papaioannou Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-01, 19:20:12 Subject: Re: Re: Attacking the brain transplant experiment On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:37 AM, Roger Clough wrote: A brain in a vat would probably have an autonomous self, which is needed for everything the brain does. I don't see how an autonomous self can be present in a computer, because autonomous means it can't depend on anything--- especially not hardware or software. Let me also say it this alternate way. The output of an algorithm (let's say a choice, given an input) is always dependent on what the algorithm did. And algorithms are software. In that case a brain can't be autonomous either, since it depends on hardware (the matter the brain) and software (encoded in the brain through experience). -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Attacking the brain transplant experiment
On 01 Oct 2012, at 19:37, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal A brain in a vat would probably have an autonomous self, which is needed for everything the brain does. I don't see how an autonomous self can be present in a computer, because autonomous means it can't depend on anything--- especially not hardware or software. Only God does not depend on anything. An autonomous self depends can only be partially autonomous, it depends on its brain, on its flesh, on food, water, taxes, and many things, in its contingent terrestrial manifestations. Autonomy for any being (≠ God) is always relative to its self and its neighboors. Let me also say it this alternate way. The output of an algorithm (let's say a choice, given an input) is always dependent on what the algorithm did. And algorithms are software. But a software can change itself in an autonomous way, relatively to its most probable universal numbers (arithmetical computers). Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Attacking the brain transplant experiment
Statis, A more concise response would be that the self is the brain's activity from a certain point of view (yours). Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/2/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Roger Clough Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-02, 05:43:40 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Attacking the brain transplant experiment Hi Stathis Papaioannou The self is not the brain, which is objective. The self is the subjective or personal view of what the brain does. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/2/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stathis Papaioannou Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-01, 19:20:12 Subject: Re: Re: Attacking the brain transplant experiment On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:37 AM, Roger Clough wrote: A brain in a vat would probably have an autonomous self, which is needed for everything the brain does. I don't see how an autonomous self can be present in a computer, because autonomous means it can't depend on anything--- especially not hardware or software. Let me also say it this alternate way. The output of an algorithm (let's say a choice, given an input) is always dependent on what the algorithm did. And algorithms are software. In that case a brain can't be autonomous either, since it depends on hardware (the matter the brain) and software (encoded in the brain through experience). -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Attacking the brain transplant experiment
Those who have faith in the possibility of brain transplants might consider this: You cannot separate the self (your ID) from the body. Your skin, the envelope of your body and self, is part of you, meaning your self. Why ? If somebody pricks you with a pin, it causes a body reaction. Yoga also uses this wholistic bodymind approach, relaxing muscles relaxwes the mind. Pretty obvious. The sense of touch is our most intimate sense, and that's part of the skin. Intimate to the self. But free will arguments typically leave out the body as a determinant. So, including body in the definition of the self, I prefer to use the term self-determination, meaning that our will and thought and desifre is affected by everything within our skin. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/1/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-30, 14:23:50 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On 9/30/2012 8:39 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Only life evolves, and steel claws, being made of steel, are not alive, at least in the ordinary sense (Leibniz believed that everything in the universe is alive). So what you propose couldn't happen. The unstated assumption here is that organism are defined by the bounding surface of their skin, anything 'outside' of that is being assumed to not be part of them. It is not hard to knock down this idea as nonsensical! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Attacking the brain transplant experiment
On 01 Oct 2012, at 16:32, Roger Clough wrote: Those who have faith in the possibility of brain transplants might consider this: You cannot separate the self (your ID) from the body. Your skin, the envelope of your body and self, is part of you, meaning your self. Why ? If somebody pricks you with a pin, it causes a body reaction. Do you agree that a brain in a vat can in principle dream about pins and skins, and skins sensations? If yes, why not a computer? And thus a number relatively to some universal numbers? If no, you introduce some magic to keep on some wishes, I think. In particular, you introduce infinities and non computability in the personhood, which is rather speculative imo. Anyway, you would go out of my working hypothesis, which might be very close to Leibniz, though. Bruno Yoga also uses this wholistic bodymind approach, relaxing muscles relaxwes the mind. Pretty obvious. The sense of touch is our most intimate sense, and that's part of the skin. Intimate to the self. But free will arguments typically leave out the body as a determinant. So, including body in the definition of the self, I prefer to use the term self-determination, meaning that our will and thought and desifre is affected by everything within our skin. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/1/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-30, 14:23:50 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On 9/30/2012 8:39 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Only life evolves, and steel claws, being made of steel, are not alive, at least in the ordinary sense (Leibniz believed that everything in the universe is alive). So what you propose couldn't happen. The unstated assumption here is that organism are defined by the bounding surface of their skin, anything 'outside' of that is being assumed to not be part of them. It is not hard to knock down this idea as nonsensical! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Attacking the brain transplant experiment
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 12:32 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Those who have faith in the possibility of brain transplants might consider this: You cannot separate the self (your ID) from the body. Your skin, the envelope of your body and self, is part of you, meaning your self. Why ? If somebody pricks you with a pin, it causes a body reaction. Yoga also uses this wholistic bodymind approach, relaxing muscles relaxwes the mind. Pretty obvious. The sense of touch is our most intimate sense, and that's part of the skin. Intimate to the self. But free will arguments typically leave out the body as a determinant. So, including body in the definition of the self, I prefer to use the term self-determination, meaning that our will and thought and desifre is affected by everything within our skin. If the science is advanced enough to replace the brain, it should also be advanced enough to replace the body. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Attacking the brain transplant experiment
Hi Bruno Marchal A brain in a vat would probably have an autonomous self, which is needed for everything the brain does. I don't see how an autonomous self can be present in a computer, because autonomous means it can't depend on anything--- especially not hardware or software. Let me also say it this alternate way. The output of an algorithm (let's say a choice, given an input) is always dependent on what the algorithm did. And algorithms are software. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/1/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-01, 11:32:07 Subject: Re: Attacking the brain transplant experiment On 01 Oct 2012, at 16:32, Roger Clough wrote: Those who have faith in the possibility of brain transplants might consider this: You cannot separate the self (your ID) from the body. Your skin, the envelope of your body and self, is part of you, meaning your self. Why ? If somebody pricks you with a pin, it causes a body reaction. Do you agree that a brain in a vat can in principle dream about pins and skins, and skins sensations? If yes, why not a computer? And thus a number relatively to some universal numbers? If no, you introduce some magic to keep on some wishes, I think. In particular, you introduce infinities and non computability in the personhood, which is rather speculative imo. Anyway, you would go out of my working hypothesis, which might be very close to Leibniz, though. Bruno Yoga also uses this wholistic bodymind approach, relaxing muscles relaxwes the mind. Pretty obvious. The sense of touch is our most intimate sense, and that's part of the skin. Intimate to the self. But free will arguments typically leave out the body as a determinant. So, including body in the definition of the self, I prefer to use the term self-determination, meaning that our will and thought and desifre is affected by everything within our skin. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/1/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-30, 14:23:50 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On 9/30/2012 8:39 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Only life evolves, and steel claws, being made of steel, are not alive, at least in the ordinary sense (Leibniz believed that everything in the universe is alive). So what you propose couldn't happen. The unstated assumption here is that organism are defined by the bounding surface of their skin, anything 'outside' of that is being assumed to not be part of them. It is not hard to knock down this idea as nonsensical! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Attacking the brain transplant experiment
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:37 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: A brain in a vat would probably have an autonomous self, which is needed for everything the brain does. I don't see how an autonomous self can be present in a computer, because autonomous means it can't depend on anything--- especially not hardware or software. Let me also say it this alternate way. The output of an algorithm (let's say a choice, given an input) is always dependent on what the algorithm did. And algorithms are software. In that case a brain can't be autonomous either, since it depends on hardware (the matter the brain) and software (encoded in the brain through experience). -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
