Re: Mathematics and the Structure of Reality

2002-12-03 Thread Osher Doctorow
proofs of theorems
that have already been invented by somebody else and making stupid machines
move faster.  They tend to like algebra, although even there they tend to
skip their assumptions since they don't have many of them.   This lack of
philosophical orientation interferes with their understand of themselves and
their relationships to others, so that verbal aggression is prevalent in
their writings when replying to more capable thinkers.

Osher Doctorow



- Original Message -
From: "Tim May" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 3:30 PM
Subject: Mathematics and the Structure of Reality


>
> On Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:15  PM, Osher Doctorow wrote:
> >   The
> > theorems that Tim has cited are one counterexample class to this, but
> > where
> > are the great predictions, where is there anything like the Einstein
> > Field
> > Equation, the Schrodinger Equation, Newton's Laws, Fermat's numerous
> > results, Maxwell's Equations, the Gauss-Bonnet Theorem and its
> > associated
> > equation that ties together geometry and topology,
> > Non-Euclidean/Riemannian
> > Geometry, Euclidean Geometry, the Jacobsen radical, Gauss-Null and
> > related
>
> Well, sure, these examples are typical of the massive breakthroughs in
> our understanding of the universe, and of the core fields of
> mathematics, that came in the 19th and early 20th centuries, roughly
> from 1850 to 1950. (There was a similar phase a bit earlier, with
> Newton, Leibniz, Laplace, Lagrange, etc.)
>
> This is an example of how the rate of discovery is _slowing down_.
>
> (I'll wait a moment for the jeers to subside...)
>
> By slowing down I mean of course that we have basically mapped out the
> larger structure of physics, and also chemistry, geology, math, and so
> on. Biology is perhaps much less mapped out.
>
> It's not likely that any theory, whether algebraic topology or model
> theory or whatever is going to give us anything like QM or relativity,
> for the reason that we have them and we have no evidence that some
> large body of experimental evidence awaits explanation in the way that
> the early QM reearchers knew they were explaining aspects of reality
> all around them (hydrogen atom, electron diffraction, spectral lines in
> emissions, radioactive decay, new and obvious particles like alphas,
> neutrons, positrons, muons, etc., and so on. Likewise, Einstein and
> others knew full well the import of the Michelson-Morley experiment.
> And the bending of light around the sun was predicted and then observed
> less than 2 years later. Finally, both theories came together with the
> atom bomb.
>
> Theories today are much, much further removed from experiment and from
> everyday implications. I don't need to say more about this, I presume.
>
> > sets in geometric nonlinear functional analysis, Godel's theorems, or
> > even
> > Hoyle's Law or the Central Limit Theorems or the almost incredible
> > theorems
> > of Nonsmooth Analysis and Kalman filters/predictors and Dynamic
> > Programming
> > and the Calculus of Variations and Cantor's cardinals and ordinals and
> > Robinson's infinitesimals and Dirac's equations and Dirac's delta
> > functions
> > and Feynmann's path history integrals and diagrams and the whole new
> > generation of continuum force laws and on and on.
>
> Here you're getting more modern areas, areas which in fact are deeply
> connected with topos theory, for example. Besides logic, which remains
> an active field with active researchers, you ought to look into
> "synthetic differential geometry," explored by Anders Kock and others.
> SDE reifies the infinitesimals. I would strongly argue that the
> nonsmooth analysis and infinitesimal analysis you crave is _more_
> closely related to Grothendieck toposes than you seem to appreciate.
>
> Likewise, check out papers by Crane, Baez, and others on the
> connections between Feynman diagrams and category theory. (One of them
> is "Categorical Feynmanology. The arXive site has them all.
>
> Kalman filters are just an applied tool. Check out "support vector
> machines" to see that work continues on new and improved tools of this
> sort.
>
> Expecting category theory to be a theory of dynamic programming or
> linear algebra practical programming is not reasonable.
>
>
> >
> > Sure, category theory can go in to many fields and find a category and
> > then
> > take credit for the field being essentially a category, and I can go
> > into
> > many fields and find plus and minus and di

Mathematics and the Structure of Reality

2002-12-03 Thread Tim May

On Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:15  PM, Osher Doctorow wrote:

  The
theorems that Tim has cited are one counterexample class to this, but 
where
are the great predictions, where is there anything like the Einstein 
Field
Equation, the Schrodinger Equation, Newton's Laws, Fermat's numerous
results, Maxwell's Equations, the Gauss-Bonnet Theorem and its 
associated
equation that ties together geometry and topology, 
Non-Euclidean/Riemannian
Geometry, Euclidean Geometry, the Jacobsen radical, Gauss-Null and 
related

Well, sure, these examples are typical of the massive breakthroughs in 
our understanding of the universe, and of the core fields of 
mathematics, that came in the 19th and early 20th centuries, roughly 
from 1850 to 1950. (There was a similar phase a bit earlier, with 
Newton, Leibniz, Laplace, Lagrange, etc.)

This is an example of how the rate of discovery is _slowing down_.

(I'll wait a moment for the jeers to subside...)

By slowing down I mean of course that we have basically mapped out the 
larger structure of physics, and also chemistry, geology, math, and so 
on. Biology is perhaps much less mapped out.

It's not likely that any theory, whether algebraic topology or model 
theory or whatever is going to give us anything like QM or relativity, 
for the reason that we have them and we have no evidence that some 
large body of experimental evidence awaits explanation in the way that 
the early QM reearchers knew they were explaining aspects of reality 
all around them (hydrogen atom, electron diffraction, spectral lines in 
emissions, radioactive decay, new and obvious particles like alphas, 
neutrons, positrons, muons, etc., and so on. Likewise, Einstein and 
others knew full well the import of the Michelson-Morley experiment. 
And the bending of light around the sun was predicted and then observed 
less than 2 years later. Finally, both theories came together with the 
atom bomb.

Theories today are much, much further removed from experiment and from 
everyday implications. I don't need to say more about this, I presume.

sets in geometric nonlinear functional analysis, Godel's theorems, or 
even
Hoyle's Law or the Central Limit Theorems or the almost incredible 
theorems
of Nonsmooth Analysis and Kalman filters/predictors and Dynamic 
Programming
and the Calculus of Variations and Cantor's cardinals and ordinals and
Robinson's infinitesimals and Dirac's equations and Dirac's delta 
functions
and Feynmann's path history integrals and diagrams and the whole new
generation of continuum force laws and on and on.

Here you're getting more modern areas, areas which in fact are deeply 
connected with topos theory, for example. Besides logic, which remains 
an active field with active researchers, you ought to look into 
"synthetic differential geometry," explored by Anders Kock and others. 
SDE reifies the infinitesimals. I would strongly argue that the 
nonsmooth analysis and infinitesimal analysis you crave is _more_ 
closely related to Grothendieck toposes than you seem to appreciate.

Likewise, check out papers by Crane, Baez, and others on the 
connections between Feynman diagrams and category theory. (One of them 
is "Categorical Feynmanology. The arXive site has them all.

Kalman filters are just an applied tool. Check out "support vector 
machines" to see that work continues on new and improved tools of this 
sort.

Expecting category theory to be a theory of dynamic programming or 
linear algebra practical programming is not reasonable.



Sure, category theory can go in to many fields and find a category and 
then
take credit for the field being essentially a category, and I can go 
into
many fields and find plus and minus and division and multiplication 
analogs
and declare the field as an example of Rare Event Theory [RET] or 
Fairly
Frequent Event Theory [FFT or FET] or Very Frequent Event Theory [VFT 
or

I confess that I have never understand your "Rare Event Theory." 
Science is well-equipped to deal with events measured with large 
negative exponents, even probabilities with 10^-50 or whatever.

I don't think the world's nonacceptance of "RET" means it is on par 
with category theory, just because some here don't think much of it.


But string and brane theory are suffering from precisely what category
theory is suffering from - a paucity of predictions of the Einstein and
Schrodinger kind mentioned in the second paragraph back, and a paucity 
of
depth.  Now, Tim, you certainly know very very much, but how are you at
depth [question-mark  - my question mark and several other keys like
parentheses are out].

On your first point, yes, many current theories are very far from 
having testable predictions. Including, of course, the Tegmark theory, 
the Schmidhuber theory, and all sorts of universe-as-CA theories. 
String and loop quantum gravity theories may be hundreds of years away 
from being tested...or a test could surprise us within the next 10 
years, much as the eviden