Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy Dewey has always fascinated me because of the sweeping power of his ideas, his blunt originality, and his emphasis on "doing". But his relativism is nowadays a bit too much for me (IMHO), in my conservative old age. He might be called the father of progressivism, so I can understand your more positive view of him. He would be the darling of progressive politics.
Unfortunately for me, Dewey differs from Peirce and James in defining truth too relatively. His relativism seems to me to say that for him, whatever works is true, period. He doesn't qualify that with "true in this particular pragmatic sense", but true, period. This is a bit too heavy-handed for me. P and J are much tighter with their definition, namely that the result of an action is merely the truth of that action, not the absolute truth. I find this to be more in line with what I would call "classic pragmatism", which is suspicious of all truth, but does not deny all of it. They admitted the possible existence of God, while Dewey, in his heavy-handed manner, simply said that God does not exist, period. So in the end, while the "sweeping power" of his ideas still holds some fascination to me, I think he tended more to being a dictator than a modest seeker of truth, whatever that is. But there is much in his thought to yet consider. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/30/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-29, 14:43:11 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Ten top-of-my-head arguments against multiverses Hi Roger, On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy Pragmatism is does not provide truth in, say a Platonic or Aristotelian sense. It only provides truth as pragmatists define truth: namely that if A causes B, B is the truth of A. This is the same as scientific truth or experimental truth. I don't think that pragmatists like Dewey, which is how I'd frame "pragmatism" semantically, would agree with that. Whenever the word pops up, I raise an eyebrow: "Let's be pragmatic here..." used for argument's sake, I do not take to be a valid move, unless the party making the statement specifies some context they are referring to + some degree of congruence with the same. Without that, I find it usually nonsense, referring to some unspecified universe that is inflated to "absolute reality which necessitates x". And everybody knows cui bono with x. And if Christian rhetoric makes such a pragmatic move, say republicans for denying healthcare to poor, my question is naturally: "Your universe is based on that book, that you guys use to ceremonially inaugurate presidents, instantiate judicial laws, make statements in courts etc. Why is your policy in direct contradiction with Jesus teachings, ? la love thy neighbor, help the poor and so on?" I have yet to hear a convincing answer to that one. But I'm patient (unless I sense they're ripping me off) with such things. Platonistically pragmatic Guitar Cowboy ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/26/2012 "The one thing a woman looks for in a man is to be needed." - "Ethan Frome", by Edith Wharton ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-26, 12:53:21 Subject: Re: Re: Ten top-of-my-head arguments against multiverses On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Roger Clough ?rote: Hi Bruno Marchal It all boils down to this: is something that is mathematically true necessarily physically true ? This question can be restated as "are mathematical truth and pragmatic truth the same ?" ?MHO No, because theory can be wrong but what works works. Dear Roger, What's wrong with: Theory always works (in some mind, no matter truth) and pragmatism can be used to justify or conceal discrimination, violence, false problems and examples like US style conservative rhetoric that pretends to be Christian, with its elements of compassion, love thy neighbor, share your wealth, anti-materialism etc. but in fact is pushing for policies that deny health to weak/poor, consolidate power and horde wealth, and promote the myth of people as isolated Islands, defending only their own interests, implying some Citizen Kane ideal, that everybody should aspire to? It's a rather transparent trick for this rhetoric to mask its anti-Christian individualism with the Christian cloak of truth, faith, piety, charity, and probity; while "pragmatically" reasoning to themselves that it's advantageous to pose with the moral authority of ruling Christian dogma + liberty of individual, freedom from tyrannical forces. For this reason, this form of "Christian-conservative rhetoric" is not an expression of liberty; it's more an instrument of control to stop people from entering political process via distraction and shared moral indignation at "what's wrong". I do not buy anymore "left vs. right" as ecology and energy problems make resource management much more complex and freedom/monitoring of internet activity enters the picture to which both Adam Smith and Marx/Engels were mute... but I do know that, if anything, Jesus was a socialist or communist. Hence, the above mentioned nonsense of rhetoric framing conservative Christians as guardians of faith, piety, probity, and charity, while they horde their wealth and complain about higher taxes is merely noise to me. People parrots. Single function machine. Of course it "works", as you say, as anything does when you allow this kind of blatant contradiction. But it still is bs. Ironically, the "atheist left" fights for Christian (New Testament) ideals... damn heathens! So the heathens will be judged, for doing Jesus' work without believing in him; and the "right" will be judged for pretending to believe in him, but for pragmatism sake they do devil's job ? la "I am God, my wealth, myself and I won't share or show solidarity with people in need, because it's their fault in my final judgement of them, even though only God can judge, for practical reason because I cannot see him, I will judge them when I vote." This disparity, the blatant fundamental contradiction in both camps, is quite hilarious I must admit, even though it's stupid how many have to suffer because of policy decisions based on this charade, and how much cash is wasted in keeping these narratives alive. Pragmatism has a coarser bs filter than arithmetic truth, anywhere in the multiverse I'd guess. PGC ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/26/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-26, 05:30:24 Subject: Re: Ten top-of-my-head arguments against multiverses To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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