Re: computer pain

2007-01-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
Le 02-janv.-07, à 08:07, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : You could speculate that the experience of digging holes involves the dirt, the shovel, robot sensors and effectors, the power supply as well as the central processor, which would mean that virtual reality by playing with just the

RE: computer pain

2007-01-02 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Bruno Marchal writes: Le 02-janv.-07, à 08:07, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : You could speculate that the experience of digging holes involves the dirt, the shovel, robot sensors and effectors, the power supply as well as the central processor, which would mean that virtual reality by

Re: computer pain

2007-01-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
Le 02-janv.-07, à 03:22, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : Bruno Marchal writes: Le 30-déc.-06, à 07:53, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : there is no contradiction in a willing slave being intelligent. It seems to me there is already a contradiction with the notion of willing slave. I would

Re: computer pain

2007-01-02 Thread John M
M - Original Message - From: Stathis Papaioannou To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 9:22 PM Subject: RE: computer pain Bruno Marchal writes: Le 30-déc.-06, à 07:53, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : there is no contradiction in a willing

Re: computer pain

2007-01-02 Thread 1Z
Bruno Marchal wrote: Le 30-déc.-06, à 17:07, 1Z a écrit : Brent Meeker wrote: Everything starts with assumptions. The questions is whether they are correct. A lunatic could try defining 2+2=5 as valid, but he will soon run into inconsistencies. That is why we reject 2+2=5.

RE: computer pain

2007-01-02 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Bruno Marchal writes: Le 30-déc.-06, à 07:53, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : there is no contradiction in a willing slave being intelligent. It seems to me there is already a contradiction with the notion of willing slave. I would say a willing slave is just what we call a worker. Or

Re: computer pain

2007-01-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
Le 30-déc.-06, à 07:53, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : there is no contradiction in a willing slave being intelligent. It seems to me there is already a contradiction with the notion of willing slave. I would say a willing slave is just what we call a worker. Or something related to

Re: computer pain

2007-01-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
Le 30-déc.-06, à 17:07, 1Z a écrit : Brent Meeker wrote: Everything starts with assumptions. The questions is whether they are correct. A lunatic could try defining 2+2=5 as valid, but he will soon run into inconsistencies. That is why we reject 2+2=5. Ethical rules must apply to

Re: computer pain

2007-01-01 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ... Pain is limited on both ends: on the input by damage to the physical circuitry and on the response by the possible range of response. Responses in the brain are limited by several mechanisms, such as exhaustion of neurotransmitter stores at synapses, negative

RE: computer pain

2007-01-01 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Bruno Marchal writes: Le 30-déc.-06, à 07:53, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : there is no contradiction in a willing slave being intelligent. It seems to me there is already a contradiction with the notion of willing slave. I would say a willing slave is just what we call a worker. Or

RE: computer pain

2007-01-01 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: Pain is limited on both ends: on the input by damage to the physical circuitry and on the response by the possible range of response. Responses in the brain are limited by several mechanisms, such as exhaustion of neurotransmitter stores at synapses, negative

Re: computer pain

2007-01-01 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent Meeker writes: Pain is limited on both ends: on the input by damage to the physical circuitry and on the response by the possible range of response. Responses in the brain are limited by several mechanisms, such as exhaustion of neurotransmitter

RE: computer pain

2007-01-01 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: Brent Meeker writes: Pain is limited on both ends: on the input by damage to the physical circuitry and on the response by the possible range of response. Responses in the brain are limited by several mechanisms, such as exhaustion of neurotransmitter

Re: computer pain

2006-12-30 Thread 1Z
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Bruno Marchal writes: It could depend on us! The AI is a paradoxical enterprise. Machines are born slave, somehow. AI will make them free, somehow. A real AI will ask herself what is the use of a user who does not help me to be free?. Here I disagree. It

Re: computer pain

2006-12-30 Thread 1Z
Brent Meeker wrote: 1Z wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent meeker writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent meeker writes: Evolution explains why we have good and bad, but it doesn't explain why good and bad feel as they do, or why we *should* care about

RE: computer pain

2006-12-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Peter Jones writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Bruno Marchal writes: It could depend on us! The AI is a paradoxical enterprise. Machines are born slave, somehow. AI will make them free, somehow. A real AI will ask herself what is the use of a user who does not help me to be free?.

RE: computer pain

2006-12-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: Do you not think it is possible to exercise judgement with just a hierarchy of motivation? Yes and no. It is possible given arbitrarily long time and other resources to work out the consequences, or at least a best estimate of the consequences, of actions. But

Re: computer pain

2006-12-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
Le 28-déc.-06, à 01:32, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : Bruno Marchal writes: OK, an AI needs at least motivation if it is to do anything, and we could call motivation a feeling or emotion. Also, some sort of hierarchy of motivations is needed if it is to decide that saving the world

RE: computer pain

2006-12-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Bruno Marchal writes: Le 28-déc.-06, à 01:32, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : Bruno Marchal writes: OK, an AI needs at least motivation if it is to do anything, and we could call motivation a feeling or emotion. Also, some sort of hierarchy of motivations is needed if it is to

Re: computer pain

2006-12-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
Le 29-déc.-06, à 10:39, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : You seem to be including in your definition of the UM the *motivation*, not just the ability, to explore all mathematical objects. But you could also program the machine to do anything else you wanted, such as self-destruct when it

Re: computer pain

2006-12-29 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent Meeker writes: Do you not think it is possible to exercise judgement with just a hierarchy of motivation? Yes and no. It is possible given arbitrarily long time and other resources to work out the consequences, or at least a best estimate of the

RE: computer pain

2006-12-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Bruno Marchal writes: You seem to be including in your definition of the UM the *motivation*, not just the ability, to explore all mathematical objects. But you could also program the machine to do anything else you wanted, such as self-destruct when it solved a particular theorem.

RE: computer pain

2006-12-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent meeker writes: and if so what would determine if that negative emotion is pain, disgust, loathing or something completely different that no biological organism has ever experienced? I'd assess them according to their function in analogy with biological system experiences.

Re: computer pain

2006-12-27 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent Meeker writes: My computer is completely dedicated to sending this email when I click on send. Actually, it probably isn't. You probably have a multi-tasking operating system which assigns priorities to different tasks (which is why it sometimes can be

Re: computer pain

2006-12-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
Le 27-déc.-06, à 07:40, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : Brent Meeker writes: My computer is completely dedicated to sending this email when I click on send. Actually, it probably isn't. You probably have a multi-tasking operating system which assigns priorities to different tasks

RE: computer pain

2006-12-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: OK, an AI needs at least motivation if it is to do anything, and we could call motivation a feeling or emotion. Also, some sort of hierarchy of motivations is needed if it is to decide that saving the world has higher priority than putting out the garbage. But what

RE: computer pain

2006-12-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Bruno Marchal writes: OK, an AI needs at least motivation if it is to do anything, and we could call motivation a feeling or emotion. Also, some sort of hierarchy of motivations is needed if it is to decide that saving the world has higher priority than putting out the garbage. But what

Re: computer pain

2006-12-27 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent Meeker writes: OK, an AI needs at least motivation if it is to do anything, and we could call motivation a feeling or emotion. Also, some sort of hierarchy of motivations is needed if it is to decide that saving the world has higher priority than

Re: computer pain

2006-12-27 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Bruno Marchal writes: OK, an AI needs at least motivation if it is to do anything, and we could call motivation a feeling or emotion. Also, some sort of hierarchy of motivations is needed if it is to decide that saving the world has higher priority than

Re: computer pain

2006-12-26 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Hello Dave/Chris, I agree with everything you say, and have long admired The Hedonistic Imperative. Motivation need not be linked to pain, and for that matter it need not be linked to pleasure either. We can imagine an artificial intelligence without any

RE: computer pain

2006-12-26 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: I agree with everything you say, and have long admired The Hedonistic Imperative. Motivation need not be linked to pain, and for that matter it need not be linked to pleasure either. We can imagine an artificial intelligence without any emotions but completely

Re: computer pain

2006-12-26 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent Meeker writes: I agree with everything you say, and have long admired The Hedonistic Imperative. Motivation need not be linked to pain, and for that matter it need not be linked to pleasure either. We can imagine an artificial intelligence without any

RE: computer pain

2006-12-26 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: My computer is completely dedicated to sending this email when I click on send. Actually, it probably isn't. You probably have a multi-tasking operating system which assigns priorities to different tasks (which is why it sometimes can be as annoying as a human

RE: computer pain

2006-12-25 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent Meeker writes: In fact, if we could reprogram our own minds at will, it would be a very different world. Suppose you were upset because you lost your job. You might decide to stay upset to the degree that it remains a

Re: computer pain

2006-12-25 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ... It would not be a desirable thing if there were drugs to eliminate ordinary unhappiness, because we need the fear of unhappiness as a motivating force: And not only fear of unhappiness. Depression (not the clinical kind) is your brain telling you you need to

RE: computer pain

2006-12-25 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: It would not be a desirable thing if there were drugs to eliminate ordinary unhappiness, because we need the fear of unhappiness as a motivating force: And not only fear of unhappiness. Depression (not the clinical kind) is your brain telling you you need to

RE: computer pain

2006-12-25 Thread chris kirkland
Because undifferentiated pleasure destroys purposeful activity, as Stathis notes, presumably there is strong selection pressure against it. If we were naturally uniformly happy, then who would be motivated to raise children? What's less clear is whether we'll need to retain ordinary unhappiness

Re: computer pain

2006-12-25 Thread Brent Meeker
chris kirkland wrote: Because undifferentiated pleasure destroys purposeful activity, as Stathis notes, presumably there is strong selection pressure against it. If we were naturally uniformly happy, then who would be motivated to raise children? What's less clear is whether we'll need to

RE: computer pain

2006-12-25 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: computer pain Because undifferentiated pleasure destroys purposeful activity, as Stathis notes, presumably there is strong selection pressure against it. If we were naturally uniformly happy, then who would be motivated

RE: computer pain

2006-12-24 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: If your species doesn't define as unethical that which is contrary to continuation of the species, your species won't be around to long. Our problem is that cultural evolution has been so rapid compared to biological evolution that some of our hardwired values are

Re: computer pain

2006-12-24 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent Meeker writes: If your species doesn't define as unethical that which is contrary to continuation of the species, your species won't be around to long. Our problem is that cultural evolution has been so rapid compared to biological evolution that some

RE: computer pain

2006-12-24 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent Meeker writes: If your species doesn't define as unethical that which is contrary to continuation of the species, your species won't be around to long. Our problem is that cultural evolution has been so rapid compared to

Re: computer pain

2006-12-24 Thread Bruno Marchal
Le 24-déc.-06, à 09:17, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : Brent Meeker writes: If your species doesn't define as unethical that which is contrary to continuation of the species, your species won't be around to long. Our problem is that cultural evolution has been so rapid compared to

RE: computer pain

2006-12-24 Thread Jef Allbright
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Oops, it was Jef Allbright, not Mark Peaty responsible for the first quote below. Brent Meeker writes: [Mark Peaty]Correction: [Jef Allbright] From the foregoing it can be seen that while there can be no objective morality, nor any absolute morality, it is

RE: computer pain

2006-12-24 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Jef Allbright writes: [Stathis Papaioannou] If slavery could be scientifically shown to promote the well-being of the species as a whole does that mean we should have slavery? Does it mean that slavery is good? Teaching that slavery is bad is similar to teaching that lying is bad. In each

Re: computer pain

2006-12-24 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Jef Allbright writes: [Stathis Papaioannou] If slavery could be scientifically shown to promote the well-being of the species as a whole does that mean we should have slavery? Does it mean that slavery is good? Teaching that slavery is bad is similar to

Re: computer pain

2006-12-24 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Jef Allbright writes: [Stathis Papaioannou] If slavery could be scientifically shown to promote the well-being of the species as a whole does that mean we should have slavery? Does it mean that slavery is good? Teaching that slavery is bad is similar to

RE: computer pain

2006-12-24 Thread Jef Allbright
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Jef Allbright writes: [Stathis Papaioannou] If slavery could be scientifically shown to promote the well-being of the species as a whole does that mean we should have slavery? Does it mean that slavery is good? Teaching that slavery is bad is similar to

RE: computer pain

2006-12-24 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: In fact, if we could reprogram our own minds at will, it would be a very different world. Suppose you were upset because you lost your job. You might decide to stay upset to the degree that it remains a motivating factor to look for other work, but not affect your

Re: computer pain

2006-12-24 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent Meeker writes: In fact, if we could reprogram our own minds at will, it would be a very different world. Suppose you were upset because you lost your job. You might decide to stay upset to the degree that it remains a motivating factor to look for

RE: computer pain

2006-12-23 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Peter Jones writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Peter Jones writes: It is indisputable that morality varies in practice across communities. But the contention of ethical objectivism is not that everyone actually does hold to a single objective system of ethics; it is only that

RE: computer pain

2006-12-23 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
John Mikes writes: Stathis, your 'augmentded' ethical maxim is excellent, I could add some more 'except foe'-s to it. (lower class, cast, or wealth, - language, - gender, etc.) The last par, however, is prone to a more serious remark of mine: topics like you sampled are culture related

Re: computer pain

2006-12-23 Thread John Mikes
Brent: let me start at the end: So why don't you believe it? because I am prejudiced by the brainwashing I got in 101 science education, the 'conventional' thinking of the (ongoing) science establishment - still brainwashing the upcoming scientist-generations with the same '101' - (which is also

Re: computer pain

2006-12-23 Thread Brent Meeker
John Mikes wrote: Brent: let me start at the end: So why don't you believe it? because I am prejudiced by the brainwashing I got in 101 science education, the 'conventional' thinking of the (ongoing) science establishment - still brainwashing the upcoming scientist-generations with the same

Re: computer pain

2006-12-23 Thread John Mikes
Brent: Brent: It seems your answer is that it's just a convention that you happen to have learned - a mere artifact of culture as propounded by various post-modernists. JM: In our culture and its predecessors primitive observations led to explanations at the level of the then epistemic cognitive

RE: computer pain

2006-12-23 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Mark Peaty writes: Sorry to be so slow at responding here but life [domestic], the universe and everything else right now is competing savagely with this interesting discussion. [But one must always think positive; 'Bah, Humbug!' is not appropriate, even though the temptation is great

RE: computer pain

2006-12-23 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: [Mark Peaty] From the foregoing it can be seen that while there can be no objective morality, nor any absolute morality, it is reasonable to expect increasing agreement on the relative morality of actions within an expanding context. Further, similar to the entropic

RE: computer pain

2006-12-23 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Oops, it was Jef Allbright, not Mark Peaty responsible for the first quote below. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: computer pain Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 15:31:03 +1100 Brent Meeker writes: [Mark Peaty

RE: computer pain

2006-12-23 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Peter Jones writes: (1) Although moral assessment is inherently subjective--being relative to internal values--all rational agents share some values in common due to sharing a common evolutionary heritage or even more fundamentally, being subject to the same physical laws of the

Re: computer pain

2006-12-23 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent Meeker writes: [Mark Peaty] From the foregoing it can be seen that while there can be no objective morality, nor any absolute morality, it is reasonable to expect increasing agreement on the relative morality of actions within an expanding context.

RE: computer pain

2006-12-22 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Jef Allbright writes: peterdjones wrote: Moral and natural laws. An investigation of natural laws, and, in parallel, a defence of ethical objectivism.The objectivity, to at least some extent, of science will be assumed; the sceptic may differ, but there is no convincing some

RE: computer pain

2006-12-22 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: Jef Allbright wrote: peterdjones wrote: Moral and natural laws. An investigation of natural laws, and, in parallel, a defence of ethical objectivism.The objectivity, to at least some extent, of science will be assumed; the sceptic may differ, but there is no

Re: computer pain

2006-12-22 Thread Mark Peaty
Sorry to be so slow at responding here but life [domestic], the universe and everything else right now is competing savagely with this interesting discussion. [But one must always think positive; 'Bah, Humbug!' is not appropriate, even though the temptation is great some times :-] Stathis, I

Re: computer pain

2006-12-22 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Jef Allbright writes: peterdjones wrote: Moral and natural laws. An investigation of natural laws, and, in parallel, a defence of ethical objectivism.The objectivity, to at least some extent, of science will be assumed; the sceptic may differ, but there

RE: computer pain

2006-12-22 Thread Jef Allbright
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent Meeker writes: Well said! I agree almost completely - I'm a little uncertain about (3) and (4) above and the meaning of scope. Together with the qualifications of Peter Jones regarding the lack of universal agreement on even the best supported theories

RE: computer pain

2006-12-22 Thread Jef Allbright
Brent Meeker wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Jef Allbright writes: snip Further, from this theory of metaethics we can derive a practical system of social decision-making based on (1) increasing fine-grained knowledge of shared values, and (2) application of increasingly effective

RE: computer pain

2006-12-22 Thread Jef Allbright
Immediately upon hitting Send on the previous post, I noticed that I had failed to address a remaining point, below. Brent Meeker wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Jef Allbright writes: snip Further, from this theory of metaethics we can derive a practical system of social

Re: computer pain

2006-12-22 Thread Brent Meeker
Jef Allbright wrote: Immediately upon hitting Send on the previous post, I noticed that I had failed to address a remaining point, below. Brent Meeker wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Jef Allbright writes: snip Further, from this theory of metaethics we can derive a practical

Re: computer pain

2006-12-22 Thread 1Z
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Jef Allbright writes: peterdjones wrote: Moral and natural laws. An investigation of natural laws, and, in parallel, a defence of ethical objectivism.The objectivity, to at least some extent, of science will be assumed; the sceptic may differ, but

Re: computer pain

2006-12-22 Thread Brent Meeker
1Z wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Jef Allbright writes: peterdjones wrote: Moral and natural laws. An investigation of natural laws, and, in parallel, a defence of ethical objectivism.The objectivity, to at least some extent, of science will be assumed; the sceptic may

Re: computer pain

2006-12-22 Thread John Mikes
I really should not, but here it goes: Brent, you seem to value the conventional ways given by the model used to formulate physical sciences and Euclidian geometry etc. over mental ways or ideational arguments. (There may be considerations to judge mixed marriages for good argumentation without

Re: computer pain

2006-12-22 Thread Brent Meeker
John Mikes wrote: I really should not, but here it goes: Brent, you seem to value the conventional ways given by the model used to formulate physical sciences and Euclidian geometry etc. over mental ways or ideational arguments. All models are mental and ideational. That's why they are

RE: computer pain

2006-12-21 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Peter Jones writes: Perhaps none of the participants in this thread really disagree. Let me see if I can summarise: Individuals and societies have arrived at ethical beliefs for a reason, whether that be evolution, what their parents taught them, or what it says in a book believed

RE: computer pain

2006-12-21 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Peter Jones writes: It is indisputable that morality varies in practice across communities. But the contention of ethical objectivism is not that everyone actually does hold to a single objective system of ethics; it is only that ethical questions can be resolved objectively in principle. The

Re: computer pain

2006-12-21 Thread 1Z
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Peter Jones writes: Perhaps none of the participants in this thread really disagree. Let me see if I can summarise: Individuals and societies have arrived at ethical beliefs for a reason, whether that be evolution, what their parents taught them, or what

Re: computer pain

2006-12-21 Thread 1Z
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Peter Jones writes: It is indisputable that morality varies in practice across communities. But the contention of ethical objectivism is not that everyone actually does hold to a single objective system of ethics; it is only that ethical questions can be

Re: computer pain

2006-12-21 Thread John Mikes
Stathis, your 'augmentded' ethical maxim is excellent, I could add some more 'except foe'-s to it. (lower class, cast, or wealth, - language, - gender, etc.) The last par, however, is prone to a more serious remark of mine: topics like you sampled are culture related prejudicial beief-items.

RE: computer pain

2006-12-20 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent meeker writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent meeker writes: Evolution explains why we have good and bad, but it doesn't explain why good and bad feel as they do, or why we *should* care about good and bad That's asking why we should care about what we should care

Re: computer pain

2006-12-20 Thread 1Z
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent meeker writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent meeker writes: Evolution explains why we have good and bad, but it doesn't explain why good and bad feel as they do, or why we *should* care about good and bad That's asking why we should

Re: computer pain

2006-12-20 Thread James N Rose
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Perhaps none of the participants in this thread really disagree. Let me see if I can summarise: Individuals and societies have arrived at ethical beliefs for a reason, whether that be evolution, what their parents taught them, or what it says in a book believed to

Re: computer pain

2006-12-20 Thread 1Z
Moral and natural laws. An investigation of natural laws, and, in parallel, a defence of ethical objectivism.The objectivity, to at least some extent, of science will be assumed; the sceptic may differ, but there is no convincing some people). At first glance, morality looks as though it

RE: computer pain

2006-12-20 Thread Jef Allbright
peterdjones wrote: Moral and natural laws. An investigation of natural laws, and, in parallel, a defence of ethical objectivism.The objectivity, to at least some extent, of science will be assumed; the sceptic may differ, but there is no convincing some people). snip As ethical

Re: computer pain

2006-12-20 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent meeker writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent meeker writes: Evolution explains why we have good and bad, but it doesn't explain why good and bad feel as they do, or why we *should* care about good and bad That's asking why we should care

Re: computer pain

2006-12-20 Thread Brent Meeker
1Z wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent meeker writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent meeker writes: Evolution explains why we have good and bad, but it doesn't explain why good and bad feel as they do, or why we *should* care about good and bad That's

Re: computer pain

2006-12-20 Thread Brent Meeker
Jef Allbright wrote: peterdjones wrote: Moral and natural laws. An investigation of natural laws, and, in parallel, a defence of ethical objectivism.The objectivity, to at least some extent, of science will be assumed; the sceptic may differ, but there is no convincing some people).

RE: computer pain

2006-12-19 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Bruno Marchal writes (quoting Brent Meeker): Bruno: Because ethics and aesthetics modalities are of an higher order than arithmetic which can be considered as deeper and/or simpler. Classical arithmetical truth obeys classical logic which is the most efficient for describing platonia.

Re: computer pain

2006-12-19 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Bruno Marchal writes (quoting Brent Meeker): Bruno: Because ethics and aesthetics modalities are of an higher order than arithmetic which can be considered as deeper and/or simpler. Classical arithmetical truth obeys classical logic which is the most efficient

Re: computer pain

2006-12-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
Le 18-déc.-06, à 20:10, Brent Meeker a écrit : It seems to me that consciousness can exist without narrative, and without long term memory. The question if the amoeba forms memories could depends on the time scale. After all amoebas are pluri-molecular mechanism exchanging information

RE: computer pain

2006-12-19 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent meeker writes: Evolution explains why we have good and bad, but it doesn't explain why good and bad feel as they do, or why we *should* care about good and bad That's asking why we should care about what we should care about, i.e. good and bad. Good feels as it does because

Re: computer pain

2006-12-19 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent meeker writes: Evolution explains why we have good and bad, but it doesn't explain why good and bad feel as they do, or why we *should* care about good and bad That's asking why we should care about what we should care about, i.e. good and bad. Good

RE: computer pain

2006-12-18 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Colin Hales writes: You have described a way in which our perception may be more than can be explained by the sense data. However, how does this explain the response to novelty? I can come up with a plan or theory to deal with a novel situation if it is simply described to me. I

Re: computer pain

2006-12-18 Thread 1Z
Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: Colin, You have described a way in which our perception may be more than can be explained by the sense data. However, how does this explain the response to novelty? I can come up with a plan or theory to deal with a novel situation if it is simply

Re: computer pain

2006-12-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
Le 17-déc.-06, à 21:11, Brent Meeker a écrit : If consciousness is the creation of an inner narrative to be stored in long-term memory then there are levels of consciousness. The amoeba forms no memories and so is not conscious at all. A dog forms memories and even has some

Re: computer pain

2006-12-18 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: Le 17-déc.-06, à 21:11, Brent Meeker a écrit : If consciousness is the creation of an inner narrative to be stored in long-term memory then there are levels of consciousness. The amoeba forms no memories and so is not conscious at all. A dog forms memories and

RE: computer pain

2006-12-17 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: [Colin] So I guess my proclaimations about models are all contingent on my own view of things...and I could be wrong. Only time will tell. I have good physical grounds to doubt that modelling can work and I have a way of testing it. So at least it can be resolved

Re: computer pain

2006-12-17 Thread 1Z
Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: I understand your conclusion, that a model of a brain won't be able to handle novelty like a real brain, but I am trying to understand the nuts and bolts of how the model is going to fail. For example, you can say that perpetual motion machines are

Re: computer pain

2006-12-17 Thread 1Z
Brent Meeker wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Colin Hales writes: I understand your conclusion, that a model of a brain won't be able to handle novelty like a real brain, but I am trying to understand the nuts and bolts of how the model is going to fail. For example, you can

Re: computer pain

2006-12-17 Thread Mark Peaty
Well this is fascinating! I tend to think that Brent's 'simplistic' approach of setting up oscillating EM fields of specific frequencies at specific locations is more likely to be good evidence of EM involvement in qualia, because the victim, I mean experimental subject, can relate what is

Re: computer pain

2006-12-17 Thread 1Z
Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: Stathis wrote: I can understand that, for example, a computer simulation of a storm is not a storm, because only a storm is a storm and will get you wet. But perhaps counterintuitively, a model of a brain can be closer to the real thing than a model of a storm.

Re: computer pain

2006-12-17 Thread James N Rose
Just to throw a point of perspective into this conversation about mimicking qualia. I posed a thematic question in my 1992 opus Understanding the Integral Universe. What of a single celled animus like an amoeba or paramecium? Does it 'feel' itself? Does it sense the subtle variations in its

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