Roger: Again totally agree. But what people do with the results of this little greed? They do things for others: Their familly for example. In the most extreme selfish cases, most engage in a frenetic behaviours aimed at having descendence, even at the risk of dying.
In the deep "selfishness" and "altruism" are concepts that the greeks called doxa, labels that describe a particular moment in life, but they are not serious categories. 2012/8/31 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> > Hi Alberto G. Corona > > Competition incites a desire to win (incentive) ,which is very healthy > (ie good), at least to a degree. This is contrary to liberal thought, > which holds that if we are all equal, there should be no winners or > losers. > > For a little greed is what causes people to buy stocks, > so a little greed is good. > > Greed is necessary due to the fear of taking such a risk. > And to sell when things look too risky. > > Economics is in fact a psychological science. > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > 8/31/2012 > Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him > so that everything could function." > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > *From:* Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com> > *Receiver:* everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> > *Time:* 2012-08-31, 05:53:23 > *Subject:* Re: Re: Is evolution moral ? > > Totally in agreement. > The problem is that the market has not good cognitive/moral support in > human psichology, because it is very recent. For one side, men acting in > markets feels themselves as selfish and the winner is envied. This has′nt > to be so, because engaging in the market is very good for the group. > > In the contrary, in sports and politics both things don′t happens in > general:. the participants has a sense of participation in a almost > religious activity, and the winners are admired. the losers are appreciated > too. > > As a consequence, free market advocates, like Ayn Rand intelectualize > their point of view by positivizing bare selfishness, which is an error, > because not all kinds of selfishness are good overall. These > simplifications are a result of the absence of a science of moral. > > 2012/8/31 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> > >> Hi Alberto G. Corona >> Adam Smith showed that "enlightened self-interest", >> contrary to what a liberal might think, benefits >> all. The buyer gains goods, the seller gains capital. Society >> is eventually enriched as well. Man would never have >> survived with such all-enriching market trading. >> Ayn Rand went overboard on the self-interest aspect, >> advocating selfishness and self-esteem as goals to strive for. >> I don't think that greed and egotism enhance life, though. >> On the other hand, Rand's conservative economics was top rate. >> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net >> 8/31/2012 >> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him >> so that everything could function." >> >> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >> *From:* Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com> >> *Receiver:* everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> >> *Time:* 2012-08-31, 05:23:23 >> *Subject:* Re: Is evolution moral ? >> >> Take for example the most primitive form of competition: the fight in a >> tribe for a leader. You defeat your opponent using politics or a form of >> ritualized violence (sorry for the redundancy). Then if you are the best >> fit for the task and the competition is adequate, the overall fitness of >> the group is enhanced. Therefore, if there is group selection, and our >> ancestor had it, this kind of moral competition, 燽ecomes a part of our >> moral psichology. As a result this, in fact, is an integral part of the >> inherent collaborative-competitive idiosincrasy of maleness. And it is >> highly moral, that is, there is profound perceived feeling in these >> activities of acting for the good of the group. >> >> This is evident specially in the most primitive form of competition: >> ritualized violence, now called sports. The sportive spirit of winner and >> loser and the moral bond that unite both under the common good of his >> country or under the concept of humanity or greek people in the antiquity >> is a derivation of the spirit of internal competition for the good of the >> tribe. >> >> In other modern activities, for example in market competition, this >> spirit is not so deep since this activity do not connect with our cognitive >> habilities for core activities such is politics-defense-hunting, and >> sports, as a derivation of the latter. In sports for example, envy is >> absent, and sincere admiration is very common. This has a profund >> evolutionary as well as moral sense. >> >> 2012/8/31 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> >> >>> Hi Bruno Marchal >>> If IMHO the moral is that which enhances life, >>> then not working tends to be immoral. >>> It is interesting to try to combine this definition >>> with evolution. You might enhance your own life >>> (and chance of generating more humans) by >>> defeating a competitor, but the overall outcome >>> would be a wash (be amoral). Not sure. >>> I think that in dealing with morality, the >>> whole group should be considered -- at >>> least from the viewpoint of a god. >>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net >>> 8/31/2012 >>> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him >>> so that everything could function." >>> >>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>> *From:* Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> >>> *Receiver:* everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> >>> *Time:* 2012-08-30, 13:03:32 >>> *Subject:* Re: No Chinese Room Necessary >>> >>> >>> On 29 Aug 2012, at 22:30, meekerdb wrote: >>> >>> From experience I know people tend not to adopt it, but let me >>> recommend a distinction. Moral is what I expect of myself. Ethics is what I >>> do and what I hope other people will do in their interactions with other >>> people. They of course tend to overlap since I will be ashamed of myself if >>> I cheat someone, so it's both immoral and unethical. But they are not the >>> same. If I spent my time smoking pot and not working I'd be disappointed in >>> myself, but it wouldn't be unethical. >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure I understand. "not working" wouldn't be immoral either. >>> Disappointing, yes, but immoral? >>> >>> BTW: >>> I would not relate pot with not working. Some people don't work and >>> smoke pot, and then blame pot for their non working, but some people smokes >>> pot and work very well. The only researcher I knew smoking pot from early >>> morning to evening, everyday, since hies early childhood, was the one who >>> published the most, and get the most prestigious post in the US. >>> >>> As a math teacher, since I told students that blaming pot will not been >>> allowed for justifying exam problems, some students realize that they were >>> using pot to lie to themselves on their motivation for study. It is so easy. >>> >>> Likewise, if we were allowed to drive while being drunk, after a while >>> the number of car accidents due to alcohol would probably diminish a lot, >>> because the real culprit is not this product or that behavior, but >>> irresponsibility, which is encouraged by treating adults like children. I >>> think. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> On 8/29/2012 8:54 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >>> >>> Not only to lie. In order 爐o commerce and in general to interact, we >>> need to know what to expect from whom. and the other need to know what the >>> others expect form me. So I have to reflect on myself in order to act in >>> the enviromnent of the moral and material expectations that others have >>> about me. This is the origin of reflective individuality, that is moral >>> from the beginning.. >>> >>> 2012/8/29 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> >>> >>>> But Craig makes a point when he says computers only deal in words. >>>> That's why something having human like intelligence and consciousness must >>>> be a robot, something that can act wordlessly in it's environment. >>>> Evolutionarily speaking, conscious narrative is an add-on on top of >>>> subconscious thought which is responsible for almost everything we do. >>>> Julian Jaynes theorized that humans did not become conscious in the modern >>>> sense until they engaged in inter-tribal commerce and it became important >>>> to learn to lie. >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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