Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-30 Thread meekerdb
On 12/29/2013 11:42 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Dec 2013, at 20:25, meekerdb wrote: On 12/29/2013 5:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 22:23, meekerdb wrote: On 12/28/2013 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For a long time I got opponent saying that we cannot generate

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Dec 2013, at 22:51, meekerdb wrote: On 12/29/2013 1:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 2:25 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 5:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 22:23, meekerdb wrote: On 12/28/2013 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Dec 2013, at 23:42, meekerdb wrote: On 12/29/2013 2:08 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 4:51 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 1:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 2:25 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Dec 2013, at 05:54, meekerdb wrote: On 12/29/2013 7:45 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 6:58 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 3:49 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 5:42 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Dec 2013, at 06:28, Jason Resch wrote: In the space of all possible movies, the ones that are watchable or meaningful to human viewers would all be highly compressible. The ones that are random snow, despite containing more information, would not make interesting movies. So maybe

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Dec 2013, at 09:01, meekerdb wrote: On 12/29/2013 11:42 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Dec 2013, at 20:25, meekerdb wrote: On 12/29/2013 5:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 22:23, meekerdb wrote: On 12/28/2013 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For a long time I got

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 16:51, Jason Resch wrote: On Dec 28, 2013, at 6:09 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:56, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi Jason, Any program, and whether

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 17:16, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Dec 2013, at 17:51, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 25 Dec

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 17:30, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:39, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Jason, ISTM that the line For each program we have generated that has not halted, execute

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 17:35, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 7:09 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:56, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi Jason, Any

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 17:43, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:27, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi LizR and Jason, Responding to both of you. I don't understand the claim of determinism is

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 18:10, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 7:37 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:27, LizR wrote: On 28 December 2013 17:23, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jason, You might be able to theoretically

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 18:43, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 07:34, LizR wrote: On 28 December 2013 19:31, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Computed how? By what? I know

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 22:12, meekerdb wrote: On 12/28/2013 3:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Perhaps; but only for nano second. you real mind overlap on sequence of states, with the right probabilities, and for this you need the complete run of the UD, because your next moment is determioned by

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 22:19, meekerdb wrote: On 12/28/2013 3:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:36, Stephen Paul King wrote: I loath Kronecker's claim! It is synonymous to Man is the measure of all things. What is his claim? I am not familiar with it. God created the

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 22:23, meekerdb wrote: On 12/28/2013 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For a long time I got opponent saying that we cannot generate computationally a random number, and that is right, if we want generate only that numbers. but a simple counting algorithm generating all

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread meekerdb
On 12/29/2013 5:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 22:23, meekerdb wrote: On 12/28/2013 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For a long time I got opponent saying that we cannot generate computationally a random number, and that is right, if we want generate only that numbers. but a

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Jason Resch
On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 2:25 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 5:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 22:23, meekerdb wrote: On 12/28/2013 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For a long time I got opponent saying that we cannot generate computationally a

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread meekerdb
On 12/29/2013 1:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 2:25 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 5:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 22:23, meekerdb wrote: On 12/28/2013 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Brent and Jason, I think that this is an important idea: the relationship between compression algorithms and numbers. It does not look like a simple one-to-one and onto map! On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 4:51 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 1:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Jason Resch
On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 4:51 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 1:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 2:25 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 5:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 22:23, meekerdb wrote: On

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Jason Resch
On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Brent and Jason, I think that this is an important idea: the relationship between compression algorithms and numbers. It does not look like a simple one-to-one and onto map! Stephen, For any

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread meekerdb
On 12/29/2013 2:08 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 4:51 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 1:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 2:25 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Jason Resch
On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 5:42 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 2:08 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 4:51 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 1:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 2:25 PM, meekerdb

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread meekerdb
On 12/29/2013 3:49 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 5:42 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 2:08 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 4:51 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Jason Resch
On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 6:58 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 3:49 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 5:42 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 2:08 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 4:51 PM, meekerdb

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread meekerdb
On 12/29/2013 7:45 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 6:58 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 3:49 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 5:42 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Jason Resch
On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 11:54 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 7:45 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 6:58 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/29/2013 3:49 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 5:42 PM, meekerdb

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Dec 2013, at 20:25, meekerdb wrote: On 12/29/2013 5:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 22:23, meekerdb wrote: On 12/28/2013 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For a long time I got opponent saying that we cannot generate computationally a random number, and that is right, if

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Dec 2013, at 17:51, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 25 Dec 2013, at 18:40, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Are we not presuming, structure, or a-priori, existence of something, doing this processing, this

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Dec 2013, at 23:50, LizR wrote: On 28 December 2013 05:51, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: It has always seemed to me that UDA cannot solve the mind-body problem strictly because it cannot comprehend the existence of other minds. Actually, I have wondered

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 00:20, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 6:03 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 December 2013 11:55, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi LizR, That is what is not explicitly explained! I could see how one might make an argument

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 01:56, Jason Resch wrote: Somewhat. I think how frequently a program is referenced / instantiated by other non-halting programs may play a role. Yes. It has to be like that. Stopping programs should contribute to 0, in the measure conflict. So we are

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 02:03, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Jason, You state The UD is a comparatively short program, and provably contains the program that is identical to your mind. You can't be serious! As stated that's the most ridiculous statement I've heard here today in all manner of

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 02:04, LizR wrote: On 28 December 2013 13:56, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: The UDA is a comparatively short program, and provably contains the program that is identical to your mind. To be more precise (I hope) - assuming that thoughts, experiences etc are

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 03:29, LizR wrote: What I think Jason is saying is that the TRACE of the UD (knowns as UD* - I made the same mistake!) Good :) will eventually contain your mind. Perhaps; but only for nano second. you real mind overlap on sequence of states, with the right

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:36, Stephen Paul King wrote: I loath Kronecker's claim! It is synonymous to Man is the measure of all things. What is his claim? I am not familiar with it. God created the Integers, all else is the invention of man. man is a measure of all things is a quote

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:41, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:20 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: There is one point to add which I think you've missed, Jason (apologies if I've misunderstood). The UD generates the first instruction of the first programme, then the first

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:39, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Jason, ISTM that the line For each program we have generated that has not halted, execute one instruction of it for each (Program p in listOfPrograms) is buggy. It assumes that the space of programs that do not halt is

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:44, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Jason, The first, second, 10th, 1,000,000th, and 10^100th, and 10^100^100th state of the UD's execution are mathematical facts ... Umm, how? Godel and Matiyasevich would disagree! No logicians at all would ever disagree on this. They

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:52, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:39 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Jason, ISTM that the line For each program we have generated that has not halted, execute one instruction of it for each (Program p in

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:56, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi Jason, Any program, and whether or not it ever terminates can be translated to a statement concerning numbers in arithmetic. Thus mathematical truth

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:01, Stephen Paul King wrote: How do we distinguish a program from a string of random numbers. (Consider OTP encryptions). In which language? A program fortran will be distinguished by the grammar of Fortran. In some language all numbers will be program. Then , for

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:03, Stephen Paul King wrote: I ask this because I am studying Carl Hewitt's Actor Model... Also know today as object oriented languages. c++ win against smaltalk, which won against the Actor model, but the idea is the same, basically. It is efficacious, but the math

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:06, LizR wrote: Clearly programmes don't have to be deterministic. They could contain a source of genuine randomness, in principle. I don't think the UD does, however. The UD emulates all quantum computer and many sort of non deterministic processes, including all

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:27, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi LizR and Jason, Responding to both of you. I don't understand the claim of determinism is random noise is necessary for the computations. Turing machines require exact pre-specifiability. Adding noise oracles is cheating! But it

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:27, LizR wrote: On 28 December 2013 17:23, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jason, You might be able to theoretically simulate it but certainly not compute it in real time which is what reality actually does which is my point. In real time ?! In comp (and

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:31, LizR wrote: On 28 December 2013 17:27, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi LizR and Jason, Responding to both of you. I don't understand the claim of determinism is random noise is necessary for the computations. Turing machines require

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:31, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Jason, On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:09 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi Jason, It is not a question of whether or not that

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:53, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi LizR, This is fun! :-) We must remember that we are defining People as intersections of infinitely many computations. Right? This is a very loose way to talk. Computations are not sets, so intersection of computations is very ill

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Jason Resch
On Dec 28, 2013, at 6:09 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:56, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi Jason, Any program, and whether or not it ever terminates can be translated to

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Dec 2013, at 17:51, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 25 Dec 2013, at 18:40, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Are we not

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 07:32, LizR wrote: On 28 December 2013 18:03, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi Jason, I would like to know the definition of reality that you are using here. I quite like whatever doesn't go away when you stop believing in it. I quite like

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:39, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Jason, ISTM that the line For each program we have generated that has not halted, execute one instruction of it for each (Program p in

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 7:09 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:56, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi Jason, Any program, and whether or not it ever terminates can be

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 07:35, Stephen Paul King wrote: An observer can only experience a reality that is not contradictory to its existence. Tell this to the dictators. Usually a reality guarantied some local consistency by definition of a reality (modeled by the notion of models in logic).

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 7:17 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:03, Stephen Paul King wrote: I ask this because I am studying Carl Hewitt's Actor Model... Also know today as object oriented languages. c++ win against smaltalk, which won against

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:27, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi LizR and Jason, Responding to both of you. I don't understand the claim of determinism is random noise is necessary for the computations. Turing

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 07:26, meekerdb wrote: He proposes to dispense with any physical computation and have the UD exist via arithmetical realism as an abstract, immaterial computation. What does a physicist? It looks outside, and seem to be believe in a special unique universal number,

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 07:30, meekerdb wrote: On 12/27/2013 8:24 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Edgar, But here is the thing. If we assume timelessness, Bruno is CORRECT! THe question then becomes: What is time? It's a computed partial ordering relation between events. The 1p time looks

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 7:37 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:27, LizR wrote: On 28 December 2013 17:23, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jason, You might be able to theoretically simulate it but certainly not compute it in real time

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Dec 2013, at 07:34, LizR wrote: On 28 December 2013 19:31, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Computed how? By what? I know the answer to this one! To quote Brent -- He proposes to dispense with any physical computation and have the UD exist via arithmetical

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 07:34, LizR wrote: On 28 December 2013 19:31, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Computed how? By what? I know the answer to this one! To quote Brent -- He proposes

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread meekerdb
On 12/28/2013 3:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Perhaps; but only for nano second. you real mind overlap on sequence of states, with the right probabilities, and for this you need the complete run of the UD, because your next moment is determioned by the FPI on all computations. That's a point

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread meekerdb
On 12/28/2013 3:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:36, Stephen Paul King wrote: I loath Kronecker's claim! It is synonymous to Man is the measure of all things. What is his claim? I am not familiar with it. God created the Integers, all else is the invention

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread meekerdb
On 12/28/2013 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For a long time I got opponent saying that we cannot generate computationally a random number, and that is right, if we want generate only that numbers. but a simple counting algorithm generating all numbers, 0, 1, 2, 6999500235148668, ...

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread meekerdb
On 12/28/2013 4:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:27, LizR wrote: On 28 December 2013 17:23, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jason, You might be able to theoretically simulate it but certainly not compute it in real time which is

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread LizR
On 29 December 2013 00:26, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Dec 2013, at 03:53, Jason Resch wrote: Would any universal number do? That is what Bruno speculatively has suggested. I am not so sure. Sometimes I think an if-then-else-statement contains all that is

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Jason Resch
On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 4:23 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/28/2013 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For a long time I got opponent saying that we cannot generate computationally a random number, and that is right, if we want generate only that numbers. but a simple counting

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread meekerdb
On 12/28/2013 3:00 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 4:23 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/28/2013 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For a long time I got opponent saying that we cannot generate computationally a random

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Jason Resch
On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 6:52 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/28/2013 3:00 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 4:23 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/28/2013 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For a long time I got opponent saying that we cannot

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread meekerdb
On 12/28/2013 4:47 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 6:52 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/28/2013 3:00 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 4:23 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-28 Thread Jason Resch
On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 8:35 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/28/2013 4:47 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 6:52 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/28/2013 3:00 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 4:23 PM, meekerdb

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
. The conversation with the LĂ´bian machine is just the beginning of the solution, in the most ideal case. Bruno -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Dec 25, 2013 6:18 am Subject: Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
. Bruno -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Dec 25, 2013 6:18 am Subject: Re: Bruno's mathematical reality On 22 Dec 2013, at 20:04, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Your theory comes from Von

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread LizR
On 28 December 2013 05:51, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: It has always seemed to me that UDA cannot solve the mind-body problem strictly because it cannot comprehend the existence of other minds. Actually, I have wondered about this. How do all these threads of

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
Hi LizR, That is what is not explicitly explained! I could see how one might make an argument based on Godel numbers and a choice of a numbering scheme could show the existence of a string of numbers that, if run on some computer, would generate a description of the interaction of several

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread LizR
On 28 December 2013 11:55, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Hi LizR, That is what is not explicitly explained! I could see how one might make an argument based on Godel numbers and a choice of a numbering scheme could show the existence of a string of numbers that, if

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, Multi-solipsism, exactly! We each live in our very own world and all interactions between pairs of separable entities are supported at lower levels where the pair collapse to a single entity. This would be very similar to Bruno's substitution level. On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 6:03

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 6:03 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 December 2013 11:55, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Hi LizR, That is what is not explicitly explained! I could see how one might make an argument based on Godel numbers and a choice of a numbering

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Jason, Interleaving below. On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 6:03 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 December 2013 11:55, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Hi LizR, That is what is not

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread LizR
On 28 December 2013 12:20, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 6:03 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 December 2013 11:55, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Hi LizR, That is what is not explicitly explained! I could see how one might

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Jason, Interleaving below. On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 6:03 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 December 2013 11:55,

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Jason, You state The UDA is a comparatively short program, and provably contains the program that is identical to your mind. You can't be serious! As stated that's the most ridiculous statement I've heard here today in all manner of respects! Edgar On Friday, December 27, 2013 7:56:44 PM

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread LizR
On 28 December 2013 13:56, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: The UDA is a comparatively short program, and provably contains the program that is identical to your mind. To be more precise (I hope) - assuming that thoughts, experiences etc are a form of computation at some level, the

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread LizR
On 28 December 2013 14:03, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jason, You state The UDA is a comparatively short program, and provably contains the program that is identical to your mind. You can't be serious! As stated that's the most ridiculous statement I've heard here today in all

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
Hi Jason, I snipped the portion of the thread out to cut of the tail... Interleaving in Blue. I am also interested to hear what Bruno has to say. My perspective is that most of the computations that support you and I are not isolated and short-lived computational Boltzmann brains but much

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jason, You state The UDA is a comparatively short program, and provably contains the program that is identical to your mind. My apologies, I meant the UD which short for Universal Dovetailer, not the UDA, which is the

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread LizR
What I think Jason is saying is that the TRACE of the UD (knowns as UD* - I made the same mistake!) will *eventually* contain your mind. See my previous post for an elaboration. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
Hi Jason, Could you discuss the trace of the UD that LizR mentioned? How is it computed? Could you write an explicit example? I have never been able to grok it. On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 9:29 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: What I think Jason is saying is that the TRACE of the UD (knowns as

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread LizR
On 28 December 2013 15:31, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Hi Jason, Could you discuss the trace of the UD that LizR mentioned? How is it computed? Could you write an explicit example? I have never been able to grok it. This is something that I also find it rather hard

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread LizR
I think friending is something to do with facebook, or similar social media, so I think SPK is saying that programmes which reference other programmes give them more reality. (Or something like that! :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 9:31 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Hi Jason, Could you discuss the trace of the UD that LizR mentioned? How is it computed? Could you write an explicit example? I have never been able to grok it. Bruno has written an actual UD in the

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread LizR
There is one point to add which I think you've missed, Jason (apologies if I've misunderstood). The UD generates the first instruction of the first programme, then the first instruction of the second programme, and so on. Once it has generated the first instruction of every possible programme, it

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread LizR
PS I like the while (true) statement. What would Pontius Pilate have made of that? :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Jason, ISTM that the line For each program we have generated that has not halted, execute one instruction of it for each (Program p in listOfPrograms) is buggy. It assumes that the space of programs that do not halt is accessible. How? On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:09 PM, Jason Resch

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:20 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: There is one point to add which I think you've missed, Jason (apologies if I've misunderstood). The UD generates the first instruction of the first programme, then the first instruction of the second programme, and so on. Once it

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
Hi Jason, Any program, and whether or not it ever terminates can be translated to a statement concerning numbers in arithmetic. Thus mathematical truth captures the facts concerning whether or not any program executes forever, and what all of its intermediate states are. this also captures

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:20 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: There is one point to add which I think you've missed, Jason (apologies if I've misunderstood). The UD generates the first instruction of the first

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

2013-12-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
Hi Jason, The first, second, 10th, 1,000,000th, and 10^100th, and 10^100^100th state of the UD's execution are mathematical facts ... Umm, how? Godel and Matiyasevich would disagree! If there does not exist a program that can evaluate whether or not a UD substring is a faithful representation of

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