Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-03 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 03 Mar 2012, at 01:56, Joseph Knight wrote:




On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 3:03 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be  
wrote:
Let me ask a question to everybody. Consider the WM duplication,  
starting from Helsinki, but this time, in W, you are reconstituted  
in two exemplars, in exactly the same environment. Is the  
probability, asked in Helsinki,  to find yourself in W equal to 2/3  
or to 1/2.
My current answer, not yet verified with the logics, is that if the  
two computations in W are exactly identical forever, then it is 1/2,  
but if they diverge soon or later, then the probability is [2/3].


Why is that?

But I am not sure of this. What do you think?

My intuition is that the probability should be 2/3 in either case.



Thanks for answering. I will comment asap (busy week-end!). But so I  
let also the others to think on the matter before I explain.
The question is more subtle than it looks. I don't have the answer in  
local situations, but in front of the UD, it might be a little more  
simple, but still hard.


I can give you another problem, equivalent to a question found by  
Bostrom, which can give an hint:


Suppose you are again read and cut in Helsinki, and reconstituted in  
Moscow and Washington, but now you are told in advance that in W you  
will have an artificial brain made of big wires, and in W the  
artificial brain will use thin wires. The level is correct, by  
assumption. Also, the thin wires are solid and works perfectly from a  
3p pov. What is the probability that you will find yourself in W?


Another way to handle this question is just to count the 1p  
experiences, but this will not work (this leads to white noises, do  
you see why?), so we have to separate the different 3-computations,  
like you did, but not as much as leading to an absurdity in the  
situation described by Bostrom (although he seems to defend it ...)


Bruno

PS I have to go, and I might be unable to comment before Monday  
afternoon. I will comment Craig and Stephen asap, which means later,  
sorry.




http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-03 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 03 Mar 2012, at 04:44, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/29/2012 9:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:



On 29 Feb 2012, at 13:50, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/28/2012 5:19 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:



2012/2/28 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net
On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel  
any difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your  
brain was substituted for a digital brain.


 Hi Quentin,

OK, but could you elaborate on this statement?

It means an hypothetical you after mind uploading would feel as  
conscious as you're now in your biological body, and you would  
steel *feel* and feel being you and conscious and all...


Hi Quentin,

We need to nail down exactly what continuity of self is. if  
there is no you, as Brent wrote yesterday, what is  
thatwhich is invariant with respect to substitution?



As I said, Brent made a sort of pedagogical mistake, but a big one,  
which is often done, and which explains perhaps why some  
materialist becomes person eliminativist.


The you is a construct of the brain. It is abstract. You can see  
it as an information pattern, but a real stable one which can exist  
in many representations.


And you can build it for any machine by using Kleene's second  
diagonalization construction.


It is the key of the whole thing. So let me explain again. You can  
certainly construct  a program D capable of doing some simple  
duplication of an arbitrary object x and apply any transformation T  
that you want on that duplicated object, perhaps with some  
parameters:


Dx gives T(, xx, ),

Then applying D to itself, that is substituting x for D, leads to a  
self-referential program:


DD gives T(, DD, ...).

You might add quotes to prevent an infinite loop:

Dx gives T(...'xx' ...) so that

DD gives T(... 'DD'...).

This is the trick used by Gödel, Kleene, Turing, Church, Post, ...  
in all incompleteness and insolubility result, but also, in  
abstract biology (see my paper amoeba, planaria, and dreaming  
machine.


That define a relative you, trivially relative to you. It is the  
I of computer science. It allows you to write a program referring  
to its entire code/body in the course of its execution. In some  
programming language, like the object oriented Smalltalk, for  
example, it is a build in control structure called SELF.


This gives, unfortunately only a third person notion of self. It is  
more my body than my soul, and that if why, to do the math, we  
have to use the conjunction of truth, with belief, to get a notion  
of first person. By the non definability of truth, this I cannot  
be defined by the machine concerned, but it still exist, even if  
doubly immaterial---because it is abstract, and in relation with  
the non definable (by the machine) truth.


Both are invariant, by definition, when the comp substitution is  
done at the right level. It means that the reconstituted person  
will behave the same, and feel to be the same.




Dear Bruno,

Forgive the obvious question, but what you wrote here should be  
the blue print for creating an AI, no? All that needs to be done  
is to create a special purpose physical machine that can implement a  
program with this structure, such that it is implemented fast  
enough to be able to interact in our world at our level.


Yes. I wrote a self-regenerating programs, doing that. (see amoeba,  
planaria and dreaming machine). But *any* programs once correct and  
rich enough above those laws, and they can know it (in the Theaetus'  
sense of knowing).












Is the differentiation that one might feel, given the wrong  
substitution level, different from what might occur if a digital  
uploading procedure is conducted that fails to generate complete  
continuity?


It depends on the wrongness of the substitution or the lack of  
continuity... it's not binary outcome.


At some point it would have to be, for a digital system has a  
fine grained level of sensitivity to differences, no? I am trying  
to nail down the details of this idea.


The details are in the mathematics of self-reference.


Where? How is the degree of resolution or scope of a  
computation coded in a computation? It seems that this is assumed in  
the notion of computer grammars and semantics but has this question  
been address directly in literature?


Gödel 1931.
We can do that with programs, because from outside we already know  
that they are program, and we know their substitution level. The  
program cannot, but in this case we provide the information (we play  
the role of the doctor).












Those does not feel any difference terms are a bit ambiguous  
and vague, IMHO.



Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted  
with a program, that obviously imply comp (that we can substitue  
your brain with a digital one), but comp shows that to be  
inconsistent, because comp 

Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-02 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 01 Mar 2012, at 19:39, acw wrote:


On 3/1/2012 18:16, meekerdb wrote:

But the 1p view of this is to be
conscious *of something*, which you describe as the computation seen
from the inside. What is it about these threads through different
states that makes them an equivalence class with respect to the
computation seen from the inside?
If they happen to be implementing some particular machine being in  
some particular state. The problem is that the machine can be self- 
modifiable (or that the environment can change it), and the machine  
won't know of this and not always recognize the change. This seems  
like a highly non-trivial problem to me.



Yes. That's why I think we have to extract the equivalence class  
structure from the ability of the machine to refer to itself at the  
right level. It is not constructive, from the machine's point of view,  
but this does not change the correct view of the correct machine, in  
the correct situation, despite no one can define that correctness.  
It is not trivial at all, but the contrary would have been astonishing.


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-02 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 01 Mar 2012, at 19:43, meekerdb wrote:


On 3/1/2012 10:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:



On 01 Mar 2012, at 17:54, meekerdb wrote:


On 3/1/2012 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:



On 29 Feb 2012, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical  
processes not completely Turing emulable.


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor  
who proposes to replace some part of your brain (which is made  
of matter) with a Turing emulation of it?


The doctor does not need to emulate the matter of my brain.  
This is completely not Turing *emulable*. It is only (apparently)  
Turing simulable, that is emulable at some digital truncation of  
my brain. Indeed matter is what emerges from the 1p indeterminacy  
on all more fine grained computations reaching my current states  
in arithmetic/UD.


OK, but just to clarify: The emergent matter is not emulable  
because there are infinitely many computations at the fine grained  
level reaching your current state.  But  it is  
simulable to an arbitrary degree.


If you can prove that.

I would say yes, but it does not seem obvious to prove. You have to  
emulate bigger and bigger portions of the UD*, and the 1-view are  
only defined in the limit, being unaware of the UD-delays. Not  
obvious. It might be true, but in some non tractable sense. Hmm...  
Interesting question.


I will think more on this, I smell a busy beaver situation. Your  
decimals, of your prediction might take a very long time   
to stabilize. I dunno.







But I'm still unclear on what constitutes my current states.   
Why is there more than one?  Is it a set of states of computations  
that constitutes a single state of consciousness?


If you say yes to the doctor, and if the doctor is luckily  
accurate, the current state is the encoding of the universal  
number + data that he got from the scanning. Basically, it is what  
is sent through the teleportation.


From the 1-p view, that state is unique, indeed. It is you here  
and now at the moment of the scanning (done very  quickly  
for the sake of the argument).


There is no more than one. But its encoding, and its relevant  
decoding, are generated infinitely often in the UD*, with different  
continuations, leading to your current self-indeterminacy. It is  
the subjective same you, like the people in W and M before they  
open the teletransporter box, just before differentiation.


Oops, I see that I wrote my current states, with a s.  So it  
means I was talking about the 3p computational states in the UD*  
corresponding on my (unique) current consciousness state. That  
exists, in the comp theory.


Hope I am enough clear, tell otherwise if not.


Yes, that's what I thought you meant when I first studied your  
theory.  But then I am not clear on the relation of this unique  
current state to the many non-equivalent states at a lower, e.g.  
quantum, level that constitute it at the quasi-classical level.  Is  
the UD* not also computing all of those fine-grained states?


Yes, and it adds up to the domain of first person indeterminacy.  
Usually I invoke the rule Y = II.  That is, two equivalent  
computations (equivalent in the sense that it leads to the same  
conscious experience) does not add up, but if they diverge at some  
point, even in the far future, they will add up. It is like in QM,  
there is a need for possible distinction in principle.


Let me ask a question to everybody. Consider the WM duplication,  
starting from Helsinki, but this time, in W, you are reconstituted in  
two exemplars, in exactly the same environment. Is the probability,  
asked in Helsinki,  to find yourself in W equal to 2/3 or to 1/2.
My current answer, not yet verified with the logics, is that if the  
two computations in W are exactly identical forever, then it is 1/2,  
but if they diverge soon or later, then the probability is 1/2. But I  
am not sure of this. What do you think?


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-02 Thread meekerdb

On 3/2/2012 1:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 01 Mar 2012, at 19:43, meekerdb wrote:


On 3/1/2012 10:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 01 Mar 2012, at 17:54, meekerdb wrote:


On 3/1/2012 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 29 Feb 2012, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical processes not 
completely Turing emulable. 


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor who proposes to 
replace some part of your brain (which is made of matter) with a Turing emulation 
of it?


The doctor does not need to emulate the matter of my brain. This is completely not 
Turing *emulable*. It is only (apparently) Turing simulable, that is emulable at 
some digital truncation of my brain. Indeed matter is what emerges from the 1p 
indeterminacy on all more fine grained computations reaching my current states in 
arithmetic/UD.


OK, but just to clarify: The emergent matter is not emulable because there are 
infinitely many computations at the fine grained level reaching your current state.  
But it is simulable to an arbitrary degree.


If you can prove that.

I would say yes, but it does not seem obvious to prove. You have to emulate bigger and 
bigger portions of the UD*, and the 1-view are only defined in the limit, being 
unaware of the UD-delays. Not obvious. It might be true, but in some non tractable 
sense. Hmm... Interesting question.


I will think more on this, I smell a busy beaver situation. Your decimals, of your 
prediction might take a very long time to stabilize. I dunno.







But I'm still unclear on what constitutes my current states.  Why is there more 
than one?  Is it a set of states of computations that constitutes a single state of 
consciousness?


If you say yes to the doctor, and if the doctor is luckily accurate, the current 
state is the encoding of the universal number + data that he got from the scanning. 
Basically, it is what is sent through the teleportation.


From the 1-p view, that state is unique, indeed. It is you here and now at the 
moment of the scanning (done very quickly for the sake of the argument).


There is no more than one. But its encoding, and its relevant decoding, are generated 
infinitely often in the UD*, with different continuations, leading to your current 
self-indeterminacy. It is the subjective same you, like the people in W and M before 
they open the teletransporter box, just before differentiation.


Oops, I see that I wrote my current states, with a s.  So it means I was talking 
about the 3p computational states in the UD* corresponding on my (unique) current 
consciousness state. That exists, in the comp theory.


Hope I am enough clear, tell otherwise if not.


Yes, that's what I thought you meant when I first studied your theory.  But then I am 
not clear on the relation of this unique current state to the many non-equivalent 
states at a lower, e.g. quantum, level that constitute it at the quasi-classical 
level.  Is the UD* not also computing all of those fine-grained states?


Yes, and it adds up to the domain of first person indeterminacy. Usually I invoke the 
rule Y = II.  That is, two equivalent computations (equivalent in the sense that it 
leads to the same conscious experience) does not add up, but if they diverge at some 
point, even in the far future, they will add up. It is like in QM, there is a need for 
possible distinction in principle.


Let me ask a question to everybody. Consider the WM duplication, starting from Helsinki, 
but this time, in W, you are reconstituted in two exemplars, in exactly the same 
environment. Is the probability, asked in Helsinki,  to find yourself in W equal to 2/3 
or to 1/2.
My current answer, not yet verified with the logics, is that if the two computations in 
W are exactly identical forever, then it is 1/2, but if they diverge soon or later, then 
the probability is 1/2. But I am not sure of this. What do you think?


I think there's a typo and the second 1/2 was intended to be 2/3.  I wonder though why we 
should consider an hypothesis like in exactly the same environment (to the quantum 
level?) which is nomologically impossible.


Brent

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-02 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 02 Mar 2012, at 19:17, meekerdb wrote:


On 3/2/2012 1:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:



On 01 Mar 2012, at 19:43, meekerdb wrote:


On 3/1/2012 10:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:



On 01 Mar 2012, at 17:54, meekerdb wrote:


On 3/1/2012 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:



On 29 Feb 2012, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical  
processes not completely Turing emulable.


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor  
who proposes to replace some part of your brain (which is made  
of matter) with a Turing emulation of it?


The doctor does not need to emulate the matter of my brain.  
This is completely not Turing *emulable*. It is only  
(apparently) Turing simulable, that is emulable at some digital  
truncation of my brain. Indeed matter is what emerges from the  
1p indeterminacy on all more fine grained computations reaching  
my current states in arithmetic/UD.


OK, but just to clarify: The emergent matter is not emulable  
because there are infinitely many computations at the fine  
grained level reaching your current state.  But it is simulable  
to an arbitrary degree.


If you can prove that.

I would say yes, but it does not seem obvious to prove. You have  
to emulate bigger and bigger portions of the UD*, and the 1-view  
are only defined in the limit, being unaware of the UD-delays.  
Not obvious. It might be true, but in some non tractable sense.  
Hmm... Interesting question.


I will think more on this, I smell a busy beaver situation. Your  
decimals, of your prediction might take a very long time to  
stabilize. I dunno.







But I'm still unclear on what constitutes my current states.   
Why is there more than one?  Is it a set of states of  
computations that constitutes a single state of consciousness?


If you say yes to the doctor, and if the doctor is luckily  
accurate, the current state is the encoding of the universal  
number + data that he got from the scanning. Basically, it is  
what is sent through the teleportation.


From the 1-p view, that state is unique, indeed. It is you here  
and now at the moment of the scanning (done very quickly for  
the sake of the argument).


There is no more than one. But its encoding, and its relevant  
decoding, are generated infinitely often in the UD*, with  
different continuations, leading to your current self- 
indeterminacy. It is the subjective same you, like the people in  
W and M before they open the teletransporter box, just before  
differentiation.


Oops, I see that I wrote my current states, with a s.  So it  
means I was talking about the 3p computational states in the UD*  
corresponding on my (unique) current consciousness state. That  
exists, in the comp theory.


Hope I am enough clear, tell otherwise if not.


Yes, that's what I thought you meant when I first studied your  
theory.  But then I am not clear on the relation of this unique  
current state to the many non-equivalent states at a lower, e.g.  
quantum, level that constitute it at the quasi-classical level.   
Is the UD* not also computing all of those fine-grained states?


Yes, and it adds up to the domain of first person indeterminacy.  
Usually I invoke the rule Y = II.  That is, two equivalent  
computations (equivalent in the sense that it leads to the same  
conscious experience) does not add up, but if they diverge at some  
point, even in the far future, they will add up. It is like in QM,  
there is a need for possible distinction in principle.


Let me ask a question to everybody. Consider the WM duplication,  
starting from Helsinki, but this time, in W, you are reconstituted  
in two exemplars, in exactly the same environment. Is the  
probability, asked in Helsinki,  to find yourself in W equal to 2/3  
or to 1/2.
My current answer, not yet verified with the logics, is that if the  
two computations in W are exactly identical forever, then it is  
1/2, but if they diverge soon or later, then the probability is  
1/2. But I am not sure of this. What do you think?


I think there's a typo and the second 1/2 was intended to be 2/3.


Oops.



I wonder though why we should consider an hypothesis like in  
exactly the same environment (to the quantum level?) which is  
nomologically impossible.


I meant, an environment sufficiently similar so that the first person  
experiences are identical. It is more easy to use virtual environment,  
so that we can use the comp subst level to make sure (thanks to the  
comp determinacy!) that the processing of the two brains will be  
exactly identical.


(exactly identical is what we told the cleaning service, hoping they  
will not put some flowers, or anything different in the two rooms  
which could make the experience diverging!)


So 1/2 or 2/3?

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-02 Thread Joseph Knight
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 3:03 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

 Let me ask a question to everybody. Consider the WM duplication, starting
 from Helsinki, but this time, in W, you are reconstituted in two exemplars,
 in exactly the same environment. Is the probability, asked in Helsinki,  to
 find yourself in W equal to 2/3 or to 1/2.
 My current answer, not yet verified with the logics, is that if the two
 computations in W are exactly identical forever, then it is 1/2, but if
 they diverge soon or later, then the probability is [2/3].


Why is that?


 But I am not sure of this. What do you think?


My intuition is that the probability should be 2/3 in either case.



 Bruno


 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-02 Thread Stephen P. King

On 2/29/2012 9:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 29 Feb 2012, at 13:50, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/28/2012 5:19 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


2012/2/28 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net 
mailto:stephe...@charter.net


On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel
any difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your
brain was substituted for a digital brain.


 Hi Quentin,

OK, but could you elaborate on this statement?


It means an hypothetical you after mind uploading would feel as 
conscious as you're now in your biological body, and you would steel 
*feel* and feel being you and conscious and all...


Hi Quentin,

We need to nail down exactly what continuity of self is. if there 
is no you, as Brent wrote yesterday, what is that which is 
invariant with respect to substitution?



As I said, Brent made a sort of pedagogical mistake, but a big one, 
which is often done, and which explains perhaps why some materialist 
becomes person eliminativist.


The you is a construct of the brain. It is abstract. You can see it 
as an information pattern, but a real stable one which can exist in 
many representations.


And you can build it for any machine by using Kleene's second 
diagonalization construction.


It is the key of the whole thing. So let me explain again. You can 
certainly construct  a program D capable of doing some simple 
duplication of an arbitrary object x and apply any transformation T 
that you want on that duplicated object, perhaps with some parameters:


Dx gives T(, xx, ),

Then applying D to itself, that is substituting x for D, leads to a 
self-referential program:


DD gives T(, DD, ...).

You might add quotes to prevent an infinite loop:

Dx gives T(...'xx' ...) so that

DD gives T(... 'DD'...).

This is the trick used by Gödel, Kleene, Turing, Church, Post, ... in 
all incompleteness and insolubility result, but also, in abstract 
biology (see my paper amoeba, planaria, and dreaming machine.


That define a relative you, trivially relative to you. It is the I 
of computer science. It allows you to write a program referring to its 
entire code/body in the course of its execution. In some programming 
language, like the object oriented Smalltalk, for example, it is a 
build in control structure called SELF.


This gives, unfortunately only a third person notion of self. It is 
more my body than my soul, and that if why, to do the math, we 
have to use the conjunction of truth, with belief, to get a notion of 
first person. By the non definability of truth, this I cannot be 
defined by the machine concerned, but it still exist, even if doubly 
immaterial---because it is abstract, and in relation with the non 
definable (by the machine) truth.


Both are invariant, by definition, when the comp substitution is done 
at the right level. It means that the reconstituted person will behave 
the same, and feel to be the same.




Dear Bruno,

Forgive the obvious question, but what you wrote here should be the 
blue print for creating an AI, no? All that needs to be done is to 
create a special purpose physical machine that can implement a program 
with this structure, such that it is implemented fast enough to be 
able to interact in our world at our level.







Is the differentiation that one _might_ feel, given the wrong
substitution level, different from what _might_ occur if a
digital uploading procedure is conducted that fails to
generate complete continuity?


It depends on the wrongness of the substitution or the lack of 
continuity... it's not binary outcome.


At some point it would have to be, for a digital system has a 
fine grained level of sensitivity to differences, no? I am trying to 
nail down the details of this idea.


The details are in the mathematics of self-reference.


Where? How is the degree of resolution or scope of a 
computation coded in a computation? It seems that this is assumed in the 
notion of computer grammars and semantics but has this question been 
address directly in literature?







Those does not feel any difference terms are a bit ambiguous
and vague, IMHO.



Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted
with a program, that obviously imply comp (that we can
substitue your brain with a digital one), but comp shows that
to be inconsistent, because comp implies that any piece of
matter is non-computable... it is the limit of the infinities
of computation that goes through your consciousness current state.


Can you see how this would be a problem for the entire
digital uploading argument if functional substitution cannot
occur in a strictly classical way, for example by strictly
classical level measurement of brain structure?


Yes, and if it is, it is a big indication that comp is somehow wrong...


AFAIK, it would only prevent 

Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal

Hello Stephen,

On 29 Feb 2012, at 20:26, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/29/2012 4:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 28 Feb 2012, at 20:17, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted  
with a program, that obviously imply comp (that we can substitue  
your brain with a digital one), but comp shows that to be  
inconsistent, because comp implies that any piece of matter is  
non-computable... it is the limit of the infinities of  
computation that goes through your consciousness current state.

[SPK1]
   Can you see how this would be a problem for the entire digital  
uploading argument if functional substitution cannot occur in a  
strictly classical way, for example by strictly classical level  
measurement of brain structure? Any dependence of consciousness on  
quantum entanglement will prevent any form of digital substitution.


This is not correct. It would only make the comp subst. level  
lower, for we would need to Turing-emulated the entire quantum  
system. What you say would be true if a quantum computer was not  
Turing emulable, but it is. Sure, there is an exponential slow- 
down, but the UD does not care, nor the 'first persons' who cannot  
be aware of the delays.


Bruno

[SPK2]
This might not be a bad thing for Bruno's ontological argument -  
as it would show that 1p indeterminacy is a function or  
endomorphism of entire universes in the many-worlds sense - but  
would doom any change of immortality via digital uploading.

Dear Bruno,

   Did you not see this last comment [SPK2] that I wrote? We need to  
distinguish between the actions on and by physical systems, such as  
human brains, and the platonic level systems.


We certainly have to do that locally, when we say 'yes' to the doctor,  
or when the doctor builds the artificial brain. But the reasoning  
leads to a conceptual distinction between the physical systems and the  
objects of Platonia.
Roughly speaking, the objects in Platonia are specific numbers and  
numbers relations, while physics is a relative sum on all computations  
going through my actual computational state. This follows form step  
seven.




Your remark seemed to be one that was considering my comment [SPK1]  
as if it where discussing the Platonic level aspect. This is just  
probably a confusion caused by our use of the same words for the two  
completely different levels. For example, a physical system is a UTM  
if it can implement any enumerable recursive algorithm, aka is  
programable in the Turing Thesis sense, but its actual behavior is  
limited by its resources, transition speeds, etc.


It is the difference between a UM, and a UM implemented in some other  
UM. When we implement a UM physically, we Implement a UM in some local  
subparts of the physical reality, which is itself emerging from the  
sum on all UMs' computations going through my current state.
Note that the physical reality is not in Platonia. It is how the  
border of Platonia looks to me, taking into account the infinity of  
UMs and computations to which I belong.





An abstract Platonic Machine, such as what you consider in SANE04,  
does not have any such limits.


I am not sure which one you are talking about.



   I think that we should consider a formal way to describe these  
relations. Perhaps some one that is fluent in Category theory will  
come to help us in these discussions.


I have used category theory in Conscience et mécanisme, but it helps  
only for the semantics of the 1-person (S4Grz, S4Grz1, X1*). It is  
also very distracting. It is better to understand well the problem  
before musing on the tools which can solve them. The problem *is* a  
problem in computer science, which has already good tools.




We need a way to define the idea of the limit of the infinities of  
computations that go through a given consciousness state in a way  
that is more clear given that a given consciousness state is still  
a very ambiguous notion.


We can bet that some equivalence relation is at play, like all similar  
1p in non-diverging computations, yes. But this is necessarily a non  
constructive notion, and that is why it is simpler to start with the  
logic of measure 'one' extracted directly from the modalities of self- 
reference.


   Is Löbianity required for bare consciousness, e.g. consciousness  
without self-awareness? It seems to me that our entire discussion  
seems to assume that consciousness is just the inside aspect of  
computation.


I have come to be open to the idea that bare consciousness needs only  
one UM, or even less. Löbianity is required for self-consciousness,  
and for the machine able to reason on all this, making the interview  
enough rich to extract physics.
But Löbianity is basically given once the machine believes in the  
(arithmetical) induction axioms. All chatting UMs obeys to Gödel's  
second incompleteness theorem, but only the 

Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 29 Feb 2012, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical  
processes not completely Turing emulable.


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor who  
proposes to replace some part of your brain (which is made of  
matter) with a Turing emulation of it?


The doctor does not need to emulate the matter of my brain. This is  
completely not Turing *emulable*. It is only (apparently) Turing  
simulable, that is emulable at some digital truncation of my brain.  
Indeed matter is what emerges from the 1p indeterminacy on all more  
fine grained computations reaching my current states in arithmetic/UD.


Ah, Quentin already said this. Let me copy his reply and your reply to  
it:


[Quentin] The turing emulation is not of the matter but of the  
mind... Computationalism, is the theory that the mind is some sort  
of information processor... the brain made of matter is just an  
UTM... any UTM could do the job, the emulation is not of the brain  
made of matter but of the consciousness.


[Brent]: But suppose I'm only replacing a small part of my brain.   
There's on reason to suppose that part, by itself, is conscious.


OK. A priori. Assuming that part being rather small.


Consciousness is supposed to be realized by the computation that the  
brain is doing.


But here we might have to be cautious. Natural language can fails to  
describe what is going on. My consciousness is not really realized by  
the computation made by the brain, it is only the content of my belief  
(computer generated) as far as it corresponds to some truth. It is not  
associated with any singular brain, but with the infinity of  
equivalent state reached by infinity of computations. The material  
brain is a sort of first (plural) person moiré effect due to the  
statistical interference of all those computations.





So the question becomes, at what level of fidelity must I emulate  
that piece of brain I'm going to replace.  One answer would be at  
the lowest possible level, i.e. emulate the quarks and electrons and  
vacuum field fluctuations, then I'll be sure to survive with  
consciousness unchanged.


I am not sure you can ever be sure, but you might find a reasonable  
level. Already with the actual physics, I am not sure you can get all  
the vacuum field fluctuations, because there are infinities of them.  
Given that the artifficial brain is digital, you will have to make a  
truncation (unless you believe in a *locally* digital physics, but  
this should not be possible with comp). In fact comp entails that  
matter has no lowest level, if we want all decimals exact.




But that's emulating the matter of that piece of my brain, which  
Bruno says is not completely emulable.  If that can't be done, why  
should I believe there is any level that I should say 'yes' to?


You should not believe in it 100% rationally. That's why you will need  
some act of faith, and just hope you bet on the comp right level. If  
comp is true, it cannot be entirely justified. It can only be refuted,  
or hope for. You *can* believe in it, if you want extend your life, or  
get a new brain expected to be better performing.


With the future first artificial brains, there will be bugs, and  
objective reasons to be anxious. The first people with artificial  
brain will complain on many things. They will say, I did survive, but  
I feel something is different, it is very hard to sleep, and my dreams  
seems more weird and a bit frightening. They will lose some biological  
rythmic cycles related to the metabolism, they might suffer headache.  
Worst, some people will say that they survive very well, but outsider  
will disagree, because they will not behave normally, etc. Artificial  
brains will be an evolving technology.


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-01 Thread Stephen P. King

On 3/1/2012 3:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Hello Stephen,

On 29 Feb 2012, at 20:26, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/29/2012 4:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 28 Feb 2012, at 20:17, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted 
with a program, that obviously imply comp (that we can substitue 
your brain with a digital one), but comp shows that to be 
inconsistent, because comp implies that any piece of matter is 
non-computable... it is the limit of the infinities of computation 
that goes through your consciousness current state.

[SPK1]
   Can you see how this would be a problem for the entire digital 
uploading argument if functional substitution cannot occur in a 
strictly classical way, for example by strictly classical level 
measurement of brain structure? Any dependence of consciousness on 
quantum entanglement will prevent any form of digital substitution.


This is not correct. It would only make the comp subst. level lower, 
for we would need to Turing-emulated the entire quantum system. What 
you say would be true if a quantum computer was not Turing emulable, 
but it is. Sure, there is an exponential slow-down, but the UD does 
not care, nor the 'first persons' who cannot be aware of the delays.


Bruno

[SPK2]
This might not be a bad thing for Bruno's ontological argument - as 
it would show that 1p indeterminacy is a function or endomorphism 
of entire universes in the many-worlds sense - but would doom any 
change of immortality via digital uploading.

Dear Bruno,

   Did you not see this last comment [SPK2] that I wrote? We need to 
distinguish between the actions on and by physical systems, such as 
human brains, and the platonic level systems.


We certainly have to do that locally, when we say 'yes' to the doctor, 
or when the doctor builds the artificial brain. But the reasoning 
leads to a conceptual distinction between the physical systems and the 
objects of Platonia.
Roughly speaking, the objects in Platonia are specific numbers and 
numbers relations, while physics is a relative sum on all computations 
going through my actual computational state. This follows form step 
seven.


 Dear Bruno,

In my thinking physics is a relative to mutual consistencies of 1p, 
via bisimilations. Bisimulation is explained here 
http://old.nabble.com/A-paper-for-your-Comments-p29844552.html. Since 
bisimulation algebras are telescoping then they seem to include the 
intersection of 'infinite number of computations.






Your remark seemed to be one that was considering my comment [SPK1] 
as if it where discussing the Platonic level aspect. This is just 
probably a confusion caused by our use of the same words for the two 
completely different levels. For example, a physical system is a UTM 
if it can implement any enumerable recursive algorithm, aka is 
programable in the Turing Thesis sense, but its actual behavior is 
limited by its resources, transition speeds, etc.


It is the difference between a UM, and a UM implemented in some other 
UM. When we implement a UM physically, we Implement a UM in some local 
subparts of the physical reality, which is itself emerging from the 
sum on all UMs' computations going through my current state.
Note that the physical reality is not in Platonia. It is how the 
border of Platonia looks to me, taking into account the infinity of 
UMs and computations to which I belong.




I watched a You tube video 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQCTnrj0ox4feature=g-all-ucontext=G29cf262FAAA 
last night on Aristotle's Metaphysics and in it there was a comment on 
why Aristotle was skeptical of Plato's Theory of Forms. My skepticism is 
very similar. One has to show how the Forms necessarily give rise to the 
appearances of physical worlds if we are to use Plato's theory of 
ontology. This is where and why I have trouble with UDA 8.






An abstract Platonic Machine, such as what you consider in SANE04, 
does not have any such limits.


I am not sure which one you are talking about.


Platonic machines do not have any limits except those of the 
logic that they are defined in. This is not a problem until we notice 
that there is not any a priori reason why one form of logic is chosen 
over another. Given that the models of Arithmetic are many and not just 
one, we need to be a bit careful that we are not being parochial in our 
thinking that the logic we are using is absolute to the minimization 
of all others. My contention is that we have a natural prejudice for 
Integer based arithmetic and bivalent logic because those are the one 
that best match the way our explanations of our physical world work. 
Umm, my wording here is a bit ambiguous, but I hope the idea is 
transmitted OK..






   I think that we should consider a formal way to describe these 
relations. Perhaps some one that is fluent in Category theory will 
come to help us in these discussions.


Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-01 Thread meekerdb

On 3/1/2012 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 29 Feb 2012, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical processes not completely 
Turing emulable. 


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor who proposes to replace 
some part of your brain (which is made of matter) with a Turing emulation of it?


The doctor does not need to emulate the matter of my brain. This is completely not 
Turing *emulable*. It is only (apparently) Turing simulable, that is emulable at some 
digital truncation of my brain. Indeed matter is what emerges from the 1p indeterminacy 
on all more fine grained computations reaching my current states in arithmetic/UD.


OK, but just to clarify: The emergent matter is not emulable because there are infinitely 
many computations at the fine grained level reaching your current state.  But it is 
simulable to an arbitrary degree.


But I'm still unclear on what constitutes my current states.  Why is there more than 
one?  Is it a set of states of computations that constitutes a single state of consciousness?


Brent

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 01 Mar 2012, at 14:49, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 3/1/2012 3:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


Hello Stephen,

On 29 Feb 2012, at 20:26, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/29/2012 4:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 28 Feb 2012, at 20:17, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted  
with a program, that obviously imply comp (that we can  
substitue your brain with a digital one), but comp shows that  
to be inconsistent, because comp implies that any piece of  
matter is non-computable... it is the limit of the infinities  
of computation that goes through your consciousness current  
state.

[SPK1]
   Can you see how this would be a problem for the entire  
digital uploading argument if functional substitution cannot  
occur in a strictly classical way, for example by strictly  
classical level measurement of brain structure? Any dependence  
of consciousness on quantum entanglement will prevent any form  
of digital substitution.


This is not correct. It would only make the comp subst. level  
lower, for we would need to Turing-emulated the entire quantum  
system. What you say would be true if a quantum computer was not  
Turing emulable, but it is. Sure, there is an exponential slow- 
down, but the UD does not care, nor the 'first persons' who  
cannot be aware of the delays.


Bruno

[SPK2]
This might not be a bad thing for Bruno's ontological argument -  
as it would show that 1p indeterminacy is a function or  
endomorphism of entire universes in the many-worlds sense -  
but would doom any change of immortality via digital uploading.

Dear Bruno,

   Did you not see this last comment [SPK2] that I wrote? We need  
to distinguish between the actions on and by physical systems,  
such as human brains, and the platonic level systems.


We certainly have to do that locally, when we say 'yes' to the  
doctor, or when the doctor builds the artificial brain. But the  
reasoning leads to a conceptual distinction between the physical  
systems and the objects of Platonia.
Roughly speaking, the objects in Platonia are specific numbers and  
numbers relations, while physics is a relative sum on all  
computations going through my actual computational state. This  
follows form step seven.


 Dear Bruno,

In my thinking physics is a relative to mutual consistencies of  
1p, via bisimilations. Bisimulation is explained here.



Unfortunately I don't understand. I told you at that time. You might  
give examples. What does A and B denote? What is the relationship  
between your notion of simulation, and the notion from computer science.





Since bisimulation algebras are telescoping then they seem to  
include the intersection of 'infinite number of computations.


This is too much unclear.









Your remark seemed to be one that was considering my comment  
[SPK1] as if it where discussing the Platonic level aspect. This  
is just probably a confusion caused by our use of the same words  
for the two completely different levels. For example, a physical  
system is a UTM if it can implement any enumerable recursive  
algorithm, aka is programable in the Turing Thesis sense, but  
its actual behavior is limited by its resources, transition  
speeds, etc.


It is the difference between a UM, and a UM implemented in some  
other UM. When we implement a UM physically, we Implement a UM in  
some local subparts of the physical reality, which is itself  
emerging from the sum on all UMs' computations going through my  
current state.
Note that the physical reality is not in Platonia. It is how the  
border of Platonia looks to me, taking into account the infinity  
of UMs and computations to which I belong.




I watched a You tube video last night on Aristotle's Metaphysics  
and in it there was a comment on why Aristotle was skeptical of  
Plato's Theory of Forms. My skepticism is very similar.
One has to show how the Forms necessarily give rise to the  
appearances of physical worlds if we are to use Plato's theory of  
ontology. This is where and why I have trouble with UDA 8.


You still don't get the point. My whole work is just a precise  
formulation of One has to show how the Forms necessarily give rise to  
the appearances of physical worlds if we are to assume comp.


The work is negative. It does not explains much things, it shows that  
if we are rational and willing to assume the comp hyp in the cognitive  
science, then we can no more use anything found by the physicists to  
explain anything else, including physics.


UDA shows that the only explanations possible have to rely on numbers  
(or equivalent), and no more (than definitions). There is no choice in  
the matter. It is a negative theorem showing that physics is  
metaphysically wrong at the start, even if locally fertile and useful.  
And I show that we can do that *only* by interviewing universal self- 
introspecting machines, and that 

Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-01 Thread acw

On 3/1/2012 16:54, meekerdb wrote:

On 3/1/2012 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 29 Feb 2012, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical processes
not completely Turing emulable.


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor who
proposes to replace some part of your brain (which is made of matter)
with a Turing emulation of it?


The doctor does not need to emulate the matter of my brain. This is
completely not Turing *emulable*. It is only (apparently) Turing
simulable, that is emulable at some digital truncation of my brain.
Indeed matter is what emerges from the 1p indeterminacy on all more
fine grained computations reaching my current states in arithmetic/UD.


OK, but just to clarify: The emergent matter is not emulable because
there are infinitely many computations at the fine grained level
reaching your current state. But it is simulable to an arbitrary degree.

The way I understand it, yes, it should be simulable for certain bounds, 
but never globally emulable - this in a twofold way: one in that the 
local 3p structure that we infer might contain reals in the limit (or 
rationals, computable reals) and another in that we can't know of all 
valid 1p continuations some of which could be outside the local 3p 
structure we estimated by induction. To elaborate in the first: consider 
a mathematical structure which has some symmetries and can be computed 
up to some level of detail k, but you can also compute it to a finer 
level of detail k+1, and to a finer level 2*k, ... and so on. Eventually 
in the limit, you get reals. We only care that the abstract structure 
that we call a mind is implemented in our bodies/brains which are 
implemented in some physical or arithmetical or computational substrate. 
Such implementations being statistically common (for example in a 
quantum dovetailer) make local future continuations probable. Of course, 
unusual continuations are possible and we cannot find them all due to 
Rice's theorem - we cannot know if some computation also happens to 
implement the structure/computations that represent our mind - we might 
be able to prove it in some specific case, but not in all cases.



But I'm still unclear on what constitutes my current states. Why is
there more than one? Is it a set of states of computations that
constitutes a single state of consciousness?
Even in the trivial case where we're given a particular physics 
implementation, we can find another which behaves exactly the same and 
still implements the same function (this is trivial because it's always 
possible to add useless or equivalent code to a program). However, for 
our minds we can allow for a lot more variability - I conjecture that 
most quantum randomness is below our substitution level and it 
faithfully implements our mind at the higher level (quasi-classically, 
at subst. level). Of course, there are some problems here - there can be 
continuations where we will think we are still 'ourselves', but our mind 
has been changed by stuff going below the substitution level - in which 
case, the notion of observer is too fuzzy and personal (when will we 
think we are not ourselves anymore? when will others think we are not 
ourselves?)


A single computation can be implemented by an infinity of other 
computations, thus with COMP, an infinity of programs will all have the 
same subjective experience (some specific class which implements the 
observer).


Brent



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-01 Thread meekerdb

On 3/1/2012 9:57 AM, acw wrote:

On 3/1/2012 16:54, meekerdb wrote:

On 3/1/2012 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 29 Feb 2012, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical processes
not completely Turing emulable.


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor who
proposes to replace some part of your brain (which is made of matter)
with a Turing emulation of it?


The doctor does not need to emulate the matter of my brain. This is
completely not Turing *emulable*. It is only (apparently) Turing
simulable, that is emulable at some digital truncation of my brain.
Indeed matter is what emerges from the 1p indeterminacy on all more
fine grained computations reaching my current states in arithmetic/UD.


OK, but just to clarify: The emergent matter is not emulable because
there are infinitely many computations at the fine grained level
reaching your current state. But it is simulable to an arbitrary degree.

The way I understand it, yes, it should be simulable for certain bounds, but never 
globally emulable - this in a twofold way: one in that the local 3p structure that we 
infer might contain reals in the limit (or rationals, computable reals) and another in 
that we can't know of all valid 1p continuations some of which could be outside the 
local 3p structure we estimated by induction. To elaborate in the first: consider a 
mathematical structure which has some symmetries and can be computed up to some level of 
detail k, but you can also compute it to a finer level of detail k+1, and to a finer 
level 2*k, ... and so on. Eventually in the limit, you get reals. We only care that 
the abstract structure that we call a mind is implemented in our bodies/brains which are 
implemented in some physical or arithmetical or computational substrate. Such 
implementations being statistically common (for example in a quantum dovetailer) make 
local future continuations probable. Of course, unusual continuations are possible and 
we cannot find them all due to Rice's theorem - we cannot know if some computation also 
happens to implement the structure/computations that represent our mind - we might be 
able to prove it in some specific case, but not in all cases.



But I'm still unclear on what constitutes my current states. Why is
there more than one? Is it a set of states of computations that
constitutes a single state of consciousness?
Even in the trivial case where we're given a particular physics implementation, we can 
find another which behaves exactly the same and still implements the same function (this 
is trivial because it's always possible to add useless or equivalent code to a program). 
However, for our minds we can allow for a lot more variability - I conjecture that most 
quantum randomness is below our substitution level and it faithfully implements our mind 
at the higher level (quasi-classically, at subst. level). 


Yes, I think that must be the case simply from considerations of biological evolution.  
But that implies that a state of consciousness or a state of mind is a computationally 
fuzzy object. It is constituted by uncountably many threads through each of many 
(infinitely many?) states which are not identical but are similar enough to constitute a 
conscious state.  But the 1p view of this is to be conscious *of something*, which you 
describe as the computation seen from the inside.  What is it about these threads 
through different states that makes them an equivalence class with respect to the 
computation seen from the inside?


Brent

Of course, there are some problems here - there can be continuations where we will think 
we are still 'ourselves', but our mind has been changed by stuff going below the 
substitution level - in which case, the notion of observer is too fuzzy and personal 
(when will we think we are not ourselves anymore? when will others think we are not 
ourselves?)


A single computation can be implemented by an infinity of other computations, thus with 
COMP, an infinity of programs will all have the same subjective experience (some 
specific class which implements the observer).


Brent





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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 01 Mar 2012, at 17:54, meekerdb wrote:


On 3/1/2012 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:



On 29 Feb 2012, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical  
processes not completely Turing emulable.


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor who  
proposes to replace some part of your brain (which is made of  
matter) with a Turing emulation of it?


The doctor does not need to emulate the matter of my brain. This  
is completely not Turing *emulable*. It is only (apparently) Turing  
simulable, that is emulable at some digital truncation of my brain.  
Indeed matter is what emerges from the 1p indeterminacy on all more  
fine grained computations reaching my current states in arithmetic/ 
UD.


OK, but just to clarify: The emergent matter is not emulable because  
there are infinitely many computations at the fine grained level  
reaching your current state.  But it is simulable to an arbitrary  
degree.


If you can prove that.

I would say yes, but it does not seem obvious to prove. You have to  
emulate bigger and bigger portions of the UD*, and the 1-view are only  
defined in the limit, being unaware of the UD-delays. Not obvious. It  
might be true, but in some non tractable sense. Hmm... Interesting  
question.


I will think more on this, I smell a busy beaver situation. Your  
decimals, of your prediction might take a very long time to stabilize.  
I dunno.







But I'm still unclear on what constitutes my current states.  Why  
is there more than one?  Is it a set of states of computations that  
constitutes a single state of consciousness?


If you say yes to the doctor, and if the doctor is luckily accurate,  
the current state is the encoding of the universal number + data  
that he got from the scanning. Basically, it is what is sent through  
the teleportation.


From the 1-p view, that state is unique, indeed. It is you here and  
now at the moment of the scanning (done very quickly for the sake of  
the argument).


There is no more than one. But its encoding, and its relevant  
decoding, are generated infinitely often in the UD*, with different  
continuations, leading to your current self-indeterminacy. It is the  
subjective same you, like the people in W and M before they open the  
teletransporter box, just before differentiation.


Oops, I see that I wrote my current states, with a s.  So it means  
I was talking about the 3p computational states in the UD*  
corresponding on my (unique) current consciousness state. That exists,  
in the comp theory.


Hope I am enough clear, tell otherwise if not.

Bruno






Brent

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-01 Thread acw

On 3/1/2012 18:16, meekerdb wrote:

On 3/1/2012 9:57 AM, acw wrote:

On 3/1/2012 16:54, meekerdb wrote:

On 3/1/2012 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 29 Feb 2012, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical processes
not completely Turing emulable.


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor who
proposes to replace some part of your brain (which is made of matter)
with a Turing emulation of it?


The doctor does not need to emulate the matter of my brain. This is
completely not Turing *emulable*. It is only (apparently) Turing
simulable, that is emulable at some digital truncation of my brain.
Indeed matter is what emerges from the 1p indeterminacy on all more
fine grained computations reaching my current states in arithmetic/UD.


OK, but just to clarify: The emergent matter is not emulable because
there are infinitely many computations at the fine grained level
reaching your current state. But it is simulable to an arbitrary degree.


The way I understand it, yes, it should be simulable for certain
bounds, but never globally emulable - this in a twofold way: one in
that the local 3p structure that we infer might contain reals in the
limit (or rationals, computable reals) and another in that we can't
know of all valid 1p continuations some of which could be outside the
local 3p structure we estimated by induction. To elaborate in the
first: consider a mathematical structure which has some symmetries and
can be computed up to some level of detail k, but you can also compute
it to a finer level of detail k+1, and to a finer level 2*k, ... and
so on. Eventually in the limit, you get reals. We only care that the
abstract structure that we call a mind is implemented in our
bodies/brains which are implemented in some physical or arithmetical
or computational substrate. Such implementations being statistically
common (for example in a quantum dovetailer) make local future
continuations probable. Of course, unusual continuations are possible
and we cannot find them all due to Rice's theorem - we cannot know if
some computation also happens to implement the structure/computations
that represent our mind - we might be able to prove it in some
specific case, but not in all cases.


But I'm still unclear on what constitutes my current states. Why is
there more than one? Is it a set of states of computations that
constitutes a single state of consciousness?

Even in the trivial case where we're given a particular physics
implementation, we can find another which behaves exactly the same and
still implements the same function (this is trivial because it's
always possible to add useless or equivalent code to a program).
However, for our minds we can allow for a lot more variability - I
conjecture that most quantum randomness is below our substitution
level and it faithfully implements our mind at the higher level
(quasi-classically, at subst. level).


Yes, I think that must be the case simply from considerations of
biological evolution. But that implies that a state of consciousness
or a state of mind is a computationally fuzzy object.
We cannot know what computation we happen to be and even if we choose a 
doctor that does it correctly, we can find one machine of infinitely 
many equivalent ones. At the same time, the notion of universal 
computation is quite fuzzy - we can express it in infinitely many 
systems, yet even just one interpretation is enough to 'understand' what 
it is - the consequences of the Church-Turing Thesis.

 It is

constituted by uncountably many threads through each of many (infinitely
many?) states which are not identical but are similar enough to
constitute a conscious state.
Hmm. There can only be countably (infinitely) many programs or states 
(enumerable), but there can be uncountably many histories (in the limit, 
non-enumerable)...



But the 1p view of this is to be
conscious *of something*, which you describe as the computation seen
from the inside. What is it about these threads through different
states that makes them an equivalence class with respect to the
computation seen from the inside?
If they happen to be implementing some particular machine being in some 
particular state. The problem is that the machine can be self-modifiable 
(or that the environment can change it), and the machine won't know of 
this and not always recognize the change. This seems like a highly 
non-trivial problem to me.


Brent


Of course, there are some problems here - there can be continuations
where we will think we are still 'ourselves', but our mind has been
changed by stuff going below the substitution level - in which case,
the notion of observer is too fuzzy and personal (when will we think
we are not ourselves anymore? when will others think we are not
ourselves?)

A single computation can be implemented by an infinity of other
computations, thus with COMP, an infinity of programs 

Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-01 Thread meekerdb

On 3/1/2012 10:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 01 Mar 2012, at 17:54, meekerdb wrote:


On 3/1/2012 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 29 Feb 2012, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical processes not completely 
Turing emulable. 


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor who proposes to replace 
some part of your brain (which is made of matter) with a Turing emulation of it?


The doctor does not need to emulate the matter of my brain. This is completely not 
Turing *emulable*. It is only (apparently) Turing simulable, that is emulable at some 
digital truncation of my brain. Indeed matter is what emerges from the 1p 
indeterminacy on all more fine grained computations reaching my current states in 
arithmetic/UD.


OK, but just to clarify: The emergent matter is not emulable because there are 
infinitely many computations at the fine grained level reaching your current state.  
But it is simulable to an arbitrary degree.


If you can prove that.

I would say yes, but it does not seem obvious to prove. You have to emulate bigger and 
bigger portions of the UD*, and the 1-view are only defined in the limit, being unaware 
of the UD-delays. Not obvious. It might be true, but in some non tractable sense. Hmm... 
Interesting question.


I will think more on this, I smell a busy beaver situation. Your decimals, of your 
prediction might take a very long time to stabilize. I dunno.







But I'm still unclear on what constitutes my current states.  Why is there more than 
one?  Is it a set of states of computations that constitutes a single state of 
consciousness?


If you say yes to the doctor, and if the doctor is luckily accurate, the current 
state is the encoding of the universal number + data that he got from the scanning. 
Basically, it is what is sent through the teleportation.


From the 1-p view, that state is unique, indeed. It is you here and now at the 
moment of the scanning (done very quickly for the sake of the argument).


There is no more than one. But its encoding, and its relevant decoding, are generated 
infinitely often in the UD*, with different continuations, leading to your current 
self-indeterminacy. It is the subjective same you, like the people in W and M before 
they open the teletransporter box, just before differentiation.


Oops, I see that I wrote my current states, with a s.  So it means I was talking 
about the 3p computational states in the UD* corresponding on my (unique) current 
consciousness state. That exists, in the comp theory.


Hope I am enough clear, tell otherwise if not.


Yes, that's what I thought you meant when I first studied your theory.  But then I am not 
clear on the relation of this unique current state to the many non-equivalent states at 
a lower, e.g. quantum, level that constitute it at the quasi-classical level.  Is the UD* 
not also computing all of those fine-grained states?


Brent



Bruno






Brent

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-01 Thread meekerdb

On 3/1/2012 10:39 AM, acw wrote:

On 3/1/2012 18:16, meekerdb wrote:

On 3/1/2012 9:57 AM, acw wrote:

On 3/1/2012 16:54, meekerdb wrote:

On 3/1/2012 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 29 Feb 2012, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical processes
not completely Turing emulable.


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor who
proposes to replace some part of your brain (which is made of matter)
with a Turing emulation of it?


The doctor does not need to emulate the matter of my brain. This is
completely not Turing *emulable*. It is only (apparently) Turing
simulable, that is emulable at some digital truncation of my brain.
Indeed matter is what emerges from the 1p indeterminacy on all more
fine grained computations reaching my current states in arithmetic/UD.


OK, but just to clarify: The emergent matter is not emulable because
there are infinitely many computations at the fine grained level
reaching your current state. But it is simulable to an arbitrary degree.


The way I understand it, yes, it should be simulable for certain
bounds, but never globally emulable - this in a twofold way: one in
that the local 3p structure that we infer might contain reals in the
limit (or rationals, computable reals) and another in that we can't
know of all valid 1p continuations some of which could be outside the
local 3p structure we estimated by induction. To elaborate in the
first: consider a mathematical structure which has some symmetries and
can be computed up to some level of detail k, but you can also compute
it to a finer level of detail k+1, and to a finer level 2*k, ... and
so on. Eventually in the limit, you get reals. We only care that the
abstract structure that we call a mind is implemented in our
bodies/brains which are implemented in some physical or arithmetical
or computational substrate. Such implementations being statistically
common (for example in a quantum dovetailer) make local future
continuations probable. Of course, unusual continuations are possible
and we cannot find them all due to Rice's theorem - we cannot know if
some computation also happens to implement the structure/computations
that represent our mind - we might be able to prove it in some
specific case, but not in all cases.


But I'm still unclear on what constitutes my current states. Why is
there more than one? Is it a set of states of computations that
constitutes a single state of consciousness?

Even in the trivial case where we're given a particular physics
implementation, we can find another which behaves exactly the same and
still implements the same function (this is trivial because it's
always possible to add useless or equivalent code to a program).
However, for our minds we can allow for a lot more variability - I
conjecture that most quantum randomness is below our substitution
level and it faithfully implements our mind at the higher level
(quasi-classically, at subst. level).


Yes, I think that must be the case simply from considerations of
biological evolution. But that implies that a state of consciousness
or a state of mind is a computationally fuzzy object.
We cannot know what computation we happen to be and even if we choose a doctor that 
does it correctly, we can find one machine of infinitely many equivalent ones. At the 
same time, the notion of universal computation is quite fuzzy - we can express it in 
infinitely many systems, yet even just one interpretation is enough to 'understand' what 
it is - the consequences of the Church-Turing Thesis.

 It is

constituted by uncountably many threads through each of many (infinitely
many?) states which are not identical but are similar enough to
constitute a conscious state.
Hmm. There can only be countably (infinitely) many programs or states (enumerable), but 
there can be uncountably many histories (in the limit, non-enumerable)...



But the 1p view of this is to be
conscious *of something*, which you describe as the computation seen
from the inside. What is it about these threads through different
states that makes them an equivalence class with respect to the
computation seen from the inside?
If they happen to be implementing some particular machine being in some particular 
state. The problem is that the machine can be self-modifiable (or that the environment 
can change it), and the machine won't know of this and not always recognize the change. 


Hmmm. I thought the idea of the UD was to abstract computation away from any particular 
machine, so that states (or consciousness or the world) were identified with states of 
finitely many (but arbitrarily increasing) threads of computation.




This seems like a highly non-trivial problem to me.


An understatement.  :-)




Brent


Of course, there are some problems here - there can be continuations
where we will think we are still 'ourselves', but our mind has been
changed by stuff going 

Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-03-01 Thread acw

On 3/1/2012 19:06, meekerdb wrote:

On 3/1/2012 10:39 AM, acw wrote:

On 3/1/2012 18:16, meekerdb wrote:

On 3/1/2012 9:57 AM, acw wrote:

On 3/1/2012 16:54, meekerdb wrote:

On 3/1/2012 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 29 Feb 2012, at 21:05, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical
processes
not completely Turing emulable.


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor who
proposes to replace some part of your brain (which is made of
matter)
with a Turing emulation of it?


The doctor does not need to emulate the matter of my brain. This is
completely not Turing *emulable*. It is only (apparently) Turing
simulable, that is emulable at some digital truncation of my brain.
Indeed matter is what emerges from the 1p indeterminacy on all more
fine grained computations reaching my current states in
arithmetic/UD.


OK, but just to clarify: The emergent matter is not emulable because
there are infinitely many computations at the fine grained level
reaching your current state. But it is simulable to an arbitrary
degree.


The way I understand it, yes, it should be simulable for certain
bounds, but never globally emulable - this in a twofold way: one in
that the local 3p structure that we infer might contain reals in the
limit (or rationals, computable reals) and another in that we can't
know of all valid 1p continuations some of which could be outside the
local 3p structure we estimated by induction. To elaborate in the
first: consider a mathematical structure which has some symmetries and
can be computed up to some level of detail k, but you can also compute
it to a finer level of detail k+1, and to a finer level 2*k, ... and
so on. Eventually in the limit, you get reals. We only care that the
abstract structure that we call a mind is implemented in our
bodies/brains which are implemented in some physical or arithmetical
or computational substrate. Such implementations being statistically
common (for example in a quantum dovetailer) make local future
continuations probable. Of course, unusual continuations are possible
and we cannot find them all due to Rice's theorem - we cannot know if
some computation also happens to implement the structure/computations
that represent our mind - we might be able to prove it in some
specific case, but not in all cases.


But I'm still unclear on what constitutes my current states. Why is
there more than one? Is it a set of states of computations that
constitutes a single state of consciousness?

Even in the trivial case where we're given a particular physics
implementation, we can find another which behaves exactly the same and
still implements the same function (this is trivial because it's
always possible to add useless or equivalent code to a program).
However, for our minds we can allow for a lot more variability - I
conjecture that most quantum randomness is below our substitution
level and it faithfully implements our mind at the higher level
(quasi-classically, at subst. level).


Yes, I think that must be the case simply from considerations of
biological evolution. But that implies that a state of consciousness
or a state of mind is a computationally fuzzy object.

We cannot know what computation we happen to be and even if we choose
a doctor that does it correctly, we can find one machine of
infinitely many equivalent ones. At the same time, the notion of
universal computation is quite fuzzy - we can express it in infinitely
many systems, yet even just one interpretation is enough to
'understand' what it is - the consequences of the Church-Turing Thesis.
 It is

constituted by uncountably many threads through each of many (infinitely
many?) states which are not identical but are similar enough to
constitute a conscious state.

Hmm. There can only be countably (infinitely) many programs or states
(enumerable), but there can be uncountably many histories (in the
limit, non-enumerable)...


But the 1p view of this is to be
conscious *of something*, which you describe as the computation seen
from the inside. What is it about these threads through different
states that makes them an equivalence class with respect to the
computation seen from the inside?

If they happen to be implementing some particular machine being in
some particular state. The problem is that the machine can be
self-modifiable (or that the environment can change it), and the
machine won't know of this and not always recognize the change.


Hmmm. I thought the idea of the UD was to abstract computation away from
any particular machine, so that states (or consciousness or the world)
were identified with states of finitely many (but arbitrarily
increasing) threads of computation.

The UD has to be implemented somehow (for example in arithmetic or a 
physical machine, or in some other Turing Universal machine). The UD is 
a concrete program that can run on a TM or in any other language (as 
long as the 

Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 28 Feb 2012, at 20:17, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted  
with a program, that obviously imply comp (that we can substitue  
your brain with a digital one), but comp shows that to be  
inconsistent, because comp implies that any piece of matter is non- 
computable... it is the limit of the infinities of computation that  
goes through your consciousness current state.


Can you see how this would be a problem for the entire digital  
uploading argument if functional substitution cannot occur in a  
strictly classical way, for example by strictly classical level  
measurement of brain structure? Any dependence of consciousness on  
quantum entanglement will prevent any form of digital substitution.


This is not correct. It would only make the comp subst. level lower,  
for we would need to Turing-emulated the entire quantum system. What  
you say would be true if a quantum computer was not Turing emulable,  
but it is. Sure, there is an exponential slow-down, but the UD does  
not care, nor the 'first persons' who cannot be aware of the delays.


Bruno


This might not be a bad thing for Bruno's ontological argument - as  
it would show that 1p indeterminacy is a function or endomorphism of  
entire universes in the many-worlds sense - but would doom any  
change of immortality via digital uploading.


Onward!

Stephen



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 28 Feb 2012, at 21:41, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/28/2012 12:29 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:


On Feb 28, 10:43 am, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:

Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any
difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was
substituted for a digital brain.

What if you have two digital substitute brains? Do you become both
copies yourself at once and still not feel any difference? If not,  
and

you are in brain A, do you appear inside brain B if you turn brain A
off?

Disembodied consciousness is silly.

Craig



The implication of Comp is that there is no you.  You are an  
abstraction, a fiction, just another element in a model of the world.


OK, but I would avoid the word fiction, because people are used to  
believe that fiction are not real. yet people believe that prime  
number are real, not fiction (except in extravagant non standard  
philosophy of math). I bet that Craig will jump on this little gift  
you offer to him!
The type of fiction, or better, as you said abstraction are real  
concept, causally efficacious thanks to the laws of addition and  
multiplication.


Bruno


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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 28 Feb 2012, at 23:15, Quentin Anciaux wrote:




2012/2/28 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com
On Feb 28, 10:43 am, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:

 Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any
 difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was
 substituted for a digital brain.

What if you have two digital substitute brains? Do you become both
copies yourself at once

No


OK. The question of Craig is a bit ambiguous though.




and still not feel any difference? If not, and
you are in brain A, do you appear inside brain B if you turn brain A
off?

Brain A and Brain B will feel has being a continuation of the you  
before substitution... they'll both be your future you and both  
feel it... the you before is no more. (even if you keep your  
current body... it's just adding a brain C... and same reasonning).


Disembodied consciousness is silly.

I don't think consciousness can exist without a body and an  
environment... without that what to be conscious of ? The  
substitution is not something about disembodiment.


I have to say that I would have answer like here some years ago, but I  
am a bit less sure now. Strangely we can be conscious of nothing  
except of the fact that we are conscious. This seems to occur in some  
reports of salvia divinorum users (either as a blissful or terrorizing  
experience. It opens me to the idea that universal machine are  
conscious at the start. But you remain correct, in the sense that all  
universal machine needs a code, which plays somehow the role of a  
relative body. The continuations of such a machine is literally given  
by all possible experiences. For any memorizable experience a local  
and relative embodiement is unavoidable, and its corresponding  
primitive matter will be the usual sum on all continuations, which  
in the case of the virgin (non programmed) universal machine, is just  
all computations.

I would say.

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 28 Feb 2012, at 23:19, Quentin Anciaux wrote:




2012/2/28 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net
On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any  
difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was  
substituted for a digital brain.


 Hi Quentin,

OK, but could you elaborate on this statement?

It means an hypothetical you after mind uploading would feel as  
conscious as you're now in your biological body, and you would steel  
*feel* and feel being you and conscious and all...


Is the differentiation that one might feel, given the wrong  
substitution level, different from what might occur if a digital  
uploading procedure is conducted that fails to generate complete  
continuity?


It depends on the wrongness of the substitution or the lack of  
continuity... it's not binary outcome.


Yes. There are *many sense* in which we can survive with a wrong  
substitution.







Those does not feel any difference terms are a bit ambiguous and  
vague, IMHO.




Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted  
with a program, that obviously imply comp (that we can substitue  
your brain with a digital one), but comp shows that to be  
inconsistent, because comp implies that any piece of matter is non- 
computable... it is the limit of the infinities of computation that  
goes through your consciousness current state.


Can you see how this would be a problem for the entire digital  
uploading argument if functional substitution cannot occur in a  
strictly classical way, for example by strictly classical level  
measurement of brain structure?


Yes, and if it is, it is a big indication that comp is somehow  
wrong...


Any dependence of consciousness on quantum entanglement will prevent  
any form of digital substitution. This might not be a bad thing for  
Bruno's ontological argument - as it would show that 1p  
indeterminacy is a function or endomorphism of entire universes in  
the many-worlds sense - but would doom any change of immortality via  
digital uploading.


Sure, but if the level is that down... then even if it is still  
compatible with comp, for all practical purposes, it's the same as  
if it was wrong...


Not for the conceptual result. Physics remains a branch of digital  
machine's theory. But FAPP, you are right, except for the death or  
near death experiences. I think.


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 28 Feb 2012, at 23:45, Craig Weinberg wrote:


On Feb 28, 5:15 pm, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:


the you
before is no more.


That's what I have been arguing all along. Yes, doctor = Yes, death.
It's delightful that there will be a digital imposter/identical twin
who believes that they are someone with the same qualities that I
believed I had, before I died, but it really it invalidates any
pretensions comp has of honoring 1p experience.


Well, that's make clear that you believe in zombie.









Disembodied consciousness is silly.


I don't think consciousness can exist without a body and an  
environment...


Wait, so we actually agree on something?


I think we all agree on this. But comp explains the origin of the  
coupling brain/environment. They are not ontologically primitive,  
though.








without that what to be conscious of ? The substitution is not  
something

about disembodiment.


Bruno says all kinds of arithmetic dreams.


By the MGA.




But how can the
substitution not be synonymous with disembodied 'processes'? What
binds the experience of the program to the silicon?


The relative proportion of computation going through your state in  
which silicon are observed.


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Stephen P. King

On 2/28/2012 5:19 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:



2012/2/28 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net 
mailto:stephe...@charter.net


On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any
difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain
was substituted for a digital brain.


 Hi Quentin,

OK, but could you elaborate on this statement?


It means an hypothetical you after mind uploading would feel as 
conscious as you're now in your biological body, and you would steel 
*feel* and feel being you and conscious and all...


Hi Quentin,

We need to nail down exactly what continuity of self is. if there 
is no you, as Brent wrote yesterday, what is that which is invariant 
with respect to substitution?



Is the differentiation that one _might_ feel, given the wrong
substitution level, different from what _might_ occur if a
digital uploading procedure is conducted that fails to generate
complete continuity?


It depends on the wrongness of the substitution or the lack of 
continuity... it's not binary outcome.


At some point it would have to be, for a digital system has a fine 
grained level of sensitivity to differences, no? I am trying to nail 
down the details of this idea.



Those does not feel any difference terms are a bit ambiguous and
vague, IMHO.




Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted
with a program, that obviously imply comp (that we can substitue
your brain with a digital one), but comp shows that to be
inconsistent, because comp implies that any piece of matter is
non-computable... it is the limit of the infinities of
computation that goes through your consciousness current state.


Can you see how this would be a problem for the entire digital
uploading argument if functional substitution cannot occur in a
strictly classical way, for example by strictly classical level
measurement of brain structure?


Yes, and if it is, it is a big indication that comp is somehow wrong...


AFAIK, it would only prevent the continuation of the idea that we 
are only that which is within our skin. We might finally escape from 
the modular clock world of gears and levers that the Parminidean and 
Newtonian world view entails.




Any dependence of consciousness on quantum entanglement will
prevent any form of digital substitution. This might not be a bad
thing for Bruno's ontological argument - as it would show that 1p
indeterminacy is a function or endomorphism of entire universes
in the many-worlds sense - but would doom any change of
immortality via digital uploading.


Sure, but if the level is that down... then even if it is still 
compatible with comp, for all practical purposes, it's the same as if 
it was wrong...


I am not so sure. I think that the way that QM systems are linear 
will still allow substitution, but not in the usual way of thinking. The 
problem that I see is the lack of understanding of QM's implications.


Onward!

Stephen

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Stephen P. King

On 2/29/2012 12:50 AM, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/28/2012 9:40 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 2/28/2012 3:41 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/28/2012 12:29 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Feb 28, 10:43 am, Quentin Anciauxallco...@gmail.com  wrote:

Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any
difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was
substituted for a digital brain.

What if you have two digital substitute brains? Do you become both
copies yourself at once and still not feel any difference? If not, and
you are in brain A, do you appear inside brain B if you turn brain A
off?

Disembodied consciousness is silly.

Craig



The implication of Comp is that there is no you.  You are an 
abstraction, a fiction, just another element in a model of the world.


Brent


Hi,

Just a question about the semantics. What difference is there 
between a you and an abstraction that is indistinguishable from it?


The difference is that there isn't *a* you, there are arbitrarily 
many or at least there will be momentarily.  The absraction is tracing 
just one of these.  This is already a consequence of MWI in which 
quantum events cause you to split into orthogonal subspaces.  To the 
extent consciousness is realized by classical processes the splitting 
only happens when the quantum events have classical level effects.

Hi Brent,

So we could say that the you is tied to a particular world. 
Would it be consistent to think of this notion of realized by classical 
processes as an abstraction of the same kind, i.e. a tracing of 
individual 1p content, each of which is generated by a potential 
infinity of computations? I am trying to tease out the relation of 
COMP's ontology picture with that of MWI.


Onward!

Stephen

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 29 Feb 2012, at 13:50, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/28/2012 5:19 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:




2012/2/28 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net
On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any  
difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was  
substituted for a digital brain.


 Hi Quentin,

OK, but could you elaborate on this statement?

It means an hypothetical you after mind uploading would feel as  
conscious as you're now in your biological body, and you would  
steel *feel* and feel being you and conscious and all...


Hi Quentin,

We need to nail down exactly what continuity of self is. if  
there is no you, as Brent wrote yesterday, what is that which is  
invariant with respect to substitution?



As I said, Brent made a sort of pedagogical mistake, but a big one,  
which is often done, and which explains perhaps why some materialist  
becomes person eliminativist.


The you is a construct of the brain. It is abstract. You can see it  
as an information pattern, but a real stable one which can exist in  
many representations.


And you can build it for any machine by using Kleene's second  
diagonalization construction.


It is the key of the whole thing. So let me explain again. You can  
certainly construct  a program D capable of doing some simple  
duplication of an arbitrary object x and apply any transformation T  
that you want on that duplicated object, perhaps with some parameters:


Dx gives T(, xx, ),

Then applying D to itself, that is substituting x for D, leads to a  
self-referential program:


DD gives T(, DD, ...).

You might add quotes to prevent an infinite loop:

Dx gives T(...'xx' ...) so that

DD gives T(... 'DD'...).

This is the trick used by Gödel, Kleene, Turing, Church, Post, ... in  
all incompleteness and insolubility result, but also, in abstract  
biology (see my paper amoeba, planaria, and dreaming machine.


That define a relative you, trivially relative to you. It is the I  
of computer science. It allows you to write a program referring to its  
entire code/body in the course of its execution. In some programming  
language, like the object oriented Smalltalk, for example, it is a  
build in control structure called SELF.


This gives, unfortunately only a third person notion of self. It is  
more my body than my soul, and that if why, to do the math, we  
have to use the conjunction of truth, with belief, to get a notion of  
first person. By the non definability of truth, this I cannot be  
defined by the machine concerned, but it still exist, even if doubly  
immaterial---because it is abstract, and in relation with the non  
definable (by the machine) truth.


Both are invariant, by definition, when the comp substitution is done  
at the right level. It means that the reconstituted person will behave  
the same, and feel to be the same.











Is the differentiation that one might feel, given the wrong  
substitution level, different from what might occur if a digital  
uploading procedure is conducted that fails to generate complete  
continuity?


It depends on the wrongness of the substitution or the lack of  
continuity... it's not binary outcome.


At some point it would have to be, for a digital system has a  
fine grained level of sensitivity to differences, no? I am trying to  
nail down the details of this idea.


The details are in the mathematics of self-reference.






Those does not feel any difference terms are a bit ambiguous and  
vague, IMHO.




Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted  
with a program, that obviously imply comp (that we can substitue  
your brain with a digital one), but comp shows that to be  
inconsistent, because comp implies that any piece of matter is non- 
computable... it is the limit of the infinities of computation  
that goes through your consciousness current state.


Can you see how this would be a problem for the entire digital  
uploading argument if functional substitution cannot occur in a  
strictly classical way, for example by strictly classical level  
measurement of brain structure?


Yes, and if it is, it is a big indication that comp is somehow  
wrong...


AFAIK, it would only prevent the continuation of the idea that  
we are only that which is within our skin. We might finally escape  
from the modular clock world of gears and levers that the  
Parminidean and Newtonian world view entails.


But comp escapes this. If I am a machine, then the reality, globally  
cannot be a machine, and from the point of view of any machine, his 1- 
I cannot be a machine either, even if it *is* a machine ... from God  
(Truth) point of view.


Here there is a quite difficult idea, made simple by the self- 
reference logic, which is that:


G* proves that Bp is extensionally equivalent to Bp  p. (they prove  
the same arithmetical p),


But G, and thus the machine, does 

Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Feb 29, 4:45 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:
 On 28 Feb 2012, at 22:09, Craig Weinberg wrote:

  On Feb 28, 3:41 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  The implication of Comp is that there is no you.  You are an
  abstraction, a fiction,
  just another element in a model of the world.

  That's why I say comp has only a pseudo-1p conception of
  consciousness. It's not difficult to claim that the hard problem isn't
  so hard if you allow the hardness of it to be fictional.

 It is not fictional in the sense of unreal. But in the sense of
 abstract, or immaterial.
 You make my point to Brent already.


How does this translate though into answering the very non-abstract
question of 'Doctor, is this treatment any different from me
swallowing the business end of a shotgun?'. If I indeed wake up from
the procedure, it is not clear whether I am arbitrarily limited to one
replacement brain at a time (which means what? that I can kill myself
every day and get a restored brain every night?) or can I wake up as a
massively redundant RAID of disposable brains, or a cluster of
parallel processing identities spread out as identities all over the
world where I would experience my new separate bodies something like
fingers on my hands. I can't think of any plausible restriction
against this in comp. Either you don't become a digital brain at all
or you can become an army of simultaneous selves.

This is really the core issue of the whole thing. Symbol grounding,
primitive matter, the Explanatory Gap  Hard Problem are all different
aspects of this chain of custody issue. Who carries the ball of
consciousness? Atoms? Computation? Cells? Persons?

For human beings I think it has to be people. Just as you would not
call someone who had been catastrophically disabled a non-person, we
should not call a hypertrophied computer a non-machine. Even if the
person is in a vegetative state, we still treat their body and legacy
with human significance as opposed to scrapping it in the landfill.
This isn't a justification based on sentiment, it is an observation of
how these questions have been treated thus far in society. There would
be no reason to treat a disabled computer with any dignity at all - no
need to try to resuscitate it if we have another backup computer
conveniently available. This is not the case with children and
siblings.

With comp, chain of custody is lost entirely. As was suggested, 'you'
are reduced to an abstraction which is forever lost to the mysteries
of arithmetic ether. Will we be summoned to incarnate as a 23rd
century SmartToaster because we happen to have a popular 'toasty'
voice? Will we be doomed to live in an eternity of toast monitoring
because some programmer found the 100 exabyte eDVD of our identity in
the bargain bin of the RIAA?

Can nobody else see why these absurdities are unavoidable in comp?

Craig

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Feb 29, 5:03 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:
 On 28 Feb 2012, at 23:45, Craig Weinberg wrote:

  On Feb 28, 5:15 pm, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:

  the you
  before is no more.

  That's what I have been arguing all along. Yes, doctor = Yes, death.
  It's delightful that there will be a digital imposter/identical twin
  who believes that they are someone with the same qualities that I
  believed I had, before I died, but it really it invalidates any
  pretensions comp has of honoring 1p experience.

 Well, that's make clear that you believe in zombie.

No, I believe in puppets. Don't you?




  Disembodied consciousness is silly.

  I don't think consciousness can exist without a body and an
  environment...

  Wait, so we actually agree on something?

 I think we all agree on this. But comp explains the origin of the
 coupling brain/environment. They are not ontologically primitive,
 though.

I don't know that even physicists would say that matter is
ontologically primitive these days, but comp goes a step further to
say that matter is completely Turing emulable.




  without that what to be conscious of ? The substitution is not
  something
  about disembodiment.

  Bruno says all kinds of arithmetic dreams.

 By the MGA.

  But how can the
  substitution not be synonymous with disembodied 'processes'? What
  binds the experience of the program to the silicon?

 The relative proportion of computation going through your state in
 which silicon are observed.

?

Craig

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread meekerdb

On 2/29/2012 1:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 28 Feb 2012, at 20:17, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted with a program, that 
obviously imply comp (that we can substitue your brain with a digital one), but comp 
shows that to be inconsistent, because comp implies that any piece of matter is 
non-computable... it is the limit of the infinities of computation that goes through 
your consciousness current state.


Can you see how this would be a problem for the entire digital uploading argument 
if functional substitution cannot occur in a strictly classical way, for example by 
strictly classical level measurement of brain structure? Any dependence of 
consciousness on quantum entanglement will prevent any form of digital substitution.


This is not correct. It would only make the comp subst. level lower, for we would need 
to Turing-emulated the entire quantum system. What you say would be true if a quantum 
computer was not Turing emulable, but it is. Sure, there is an exponential slow-down, 
but the UD does not care, nor the 'first persons' who cannot be aware of the delays.


An exponential slowdown may be OK if you're substituting for the whole world, but having a 
part of my brain running much slower would be a good reason to say no to the doctor.


Brent

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread meekerdb

On 2/29/2012 5:47 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 2/29/2012 12:50 AM, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/28/2012 9:40 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 2/28/2012 3:41 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/28/2012 12:29 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Feb 28, 10:43 am, Quentin Anciauxallco...@gmail.com  wrote:

Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any
difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was
substituted for a digital brain.

What if you have two digital substitute brains? Do you become both
copies yourself at once and still not feel any difference? If not, and
you are in brain A, do you appear inside brain B if you turn brain A
off?

Disembodied consciousness is silly.

Craig



The implication of Comp is that there is no you.  You are an abstraction, a 
fiction, just another element in a model of the world.


Brent


Hi,

Just a question about the semantics. What difference is there between a you and 
an abstraction that is indistinguishable from it?


The difference is that there isn't *a* you, there are arbitrarily many or at least 
there will be momentarily.  The absraction is tracing just one of these.  This is 
already a consequence of MWI in which quantum events cause you to split into 
orthogonal subspaces.  To the extent consciousness is realized by classical processes 
the splitting only happens when the quantum events have classical level effects.

Hi Brent,

So we could say that the you is tied to a particular world. Would it be 
consistent to think of this notion of realized by classical processes as an 
abstraction of the same kind, i.e. a tracing of individual 1p content, each of which is 
generated by a potential infinity of computations? I am trying to tease out the relation 
of COMP's ontology picture with that of MWI.



That's roughly the picture I have of how comp is supposed to work. For any given state of 
your consciousness there are infinitely many threads of different computations that go 
through that state.  These have different continuations and these result in quantum 
uncertainty as to which future you experience.  However, I'm not sure how classicality 
figures into this.  The materialist view is that almost all microscopic quantum randomness 
has no effect on consciousness and so 'a conscious state' would correspond to a large 
number of similar computational states rather than just one.


Brent



Onward!

Stephen

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread meekerdb

On 2/29/2012 8:35 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Feb 29, 4:45 am, Bruno Marchalmarc...@ulb.ac.be  wrote:

On 28 Feb 2012, at 22:09, Craig Weinberg wrote:


On Feb 28, 3:41 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net  wrote:

The implication of Comp is that there is no you.  You are an
abstraction, a fiction,
just another element in a model of the world.

That's why I say comp has only a pseudo-1p conception of
consciousness. It's not difficult to claim that the hard problem isn't
so hard if you allow the hardness of it to be fictional.

It is not fictional in the sense of unreal. But in the sense of
abstract, or immaterial.
You make my point to Brent already.


How does this translate though into answering the very non-abstract
question of 'Doctor, is this treatment any different from me
swallowing the business end of a shotgun?'. If I indeed wake up from
the procedure, it is not clear whether I am arbitrarily limited to one
replacement brain at a time (which means what? that I can kill myself
every day and get a restored brain every night?) or can I wake up as a
massively redundant RAID of disposable brains, or a cluster of
parallel processing identities spread out as identities all over the
world where I would experience my new separate bodies something like
fingers on my hands. I can't think of any plausible restriction
against this in comp. Either you don't become a digital brain at all
or you can become an army of simultaneous selves.


As you suggest, you are already an army of simultaneous selves.  At least that's Daniel 
Dennett's 'multiple drafts' model in Consciousness Explained.  By that theory, the Borg 
just have more multiple drafts before they settle on what they think.


Brent

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 29 Feb 2012, at 17:47, meekerdb wrote:


On 2/29/2012 1:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 28 Feb 2012, at 20:17, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted  
with a program, that obviously imply comp (that we can substitue  
your brain with a digital one), but comp shows that to be  
inconsistent, because comp implies that any piece of matter is  
non-computable... it is the limit of the infinities of  
computation that goes through your consciousness current state.


   Can you see how this would be a problem for the entire digital  
uploading argument if functional substitution cannot occur in a  
strictly classical way, for example by strictly classical level  
measurement of brain structure? Any dependence of consciousness on  
quantum entanglement will prevent any form of digital substitution.


This is not correct. It would only make the comp subst. level  
lower, for we would need to Turing-emulated the entire quantum  
system. What you say would be true if a quantum computer was not  
Turing emulable, but it is. Sure, there is an exponential slow- 
down, but the UD does not care, nor the 'first persons' who cannot  
be aware of the delays.


An exponential slowdown may be OK if you're substituting for the  
whole world, but having a part of my brain running much slower would  
be a good reason to say no to the doctor.


In step seven you don't need no more to say yes to the doctor. You are  
in a universe with a running UD. It makes notably all the quantum  
computations leading to your current state, and their many  
continuations. And there, you can't be aware of the exponential slow  
down.


Step seven eliminates the doctor, and replaced it by a robust universe.
Step eight eliminates the robust universe.

Bruno




http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 29 Feb 2012, at 17:35, Craig Weinberg wrote:


On Feb 29, 4:45 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

On 28 Feb 2012, at 22:09, Craig Weinberg wrote:


On Feb 28, 3:41 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:



The implication of Comp is that there is no you.  You are an
abstraction, a fiction,
just another element in a model of the world.



That's why I say comp has only a pseudo-1p conception of
consciousness. It's not difficult to claim that the hard problem  
isn't

so hard if you allow the hardness of it to be fictional.


It is not fictional in the sense of unreal. But in the sense of
abstract, or immaterial.
You make my point to Brent already.



How does this translate though into answering the very non-abstract
question of 'Doctor, is this treatment any different from me
swallowing the business end of a shotgun?'. If I indeed wake up from
the procedure, it is not clear whether I am arbitrarily limited to one
replacement brain at a time (which means what? that I can kill myself
every day and get a restored brain every night?) or can I wake up as a
massively redundant RAID of disposable brains, or a cluster of
parallel processing identities spread out as identities all over the
world where I would experience my new separate bodies something like
fingers on my hands. I can't think of any plausible restriction
against this in comp. Either you don't become a digital brain at all
or you can become an army of simultaneous selves.


This is a bit ambiguous, but this is already the case with QM. Comp  
provides an explanation why that happens.






This is really the core issue of the whole thing. Symbol grounding,
primitive matter, the Explanatory Gap  Hard Problem are all different
aspects of this chain of custody issue. Who carries the ball of
consciousness? Atoms? Computation? Cells? Persons?


Persons. enough rich individuals (rich in cognitive abilities, but  
they are cheap).






For human beings I think it has to be people. Just as you would not
call someone who had been catastrophically disabled a non-person, we
should not call a hypertrophied computer a non-machine. Even if the
person is in a vegetative state, we still treat their body and legacy
with human significance as opposed to scrapping it in the landfill.
This isn't a justification based on sentiment, it is an observation of
how these questions have been treated thus far in society. There would
be no reason to treat a disabled computer with any dignity at all - no
need to try to resuscitate it if we have another backup computer
conveniently available. This is not the case with children and
siblings.

With comp, chain of custody is lost entirely. As was suggested, 'you'
are reduced to an abstraction which is forever lost to the mysteries
of arithmetic ether. Will we be summoned to incarnate as a 23rd
century SmartToaster because we happen to have a popular 'toasty'
voice? Will we be doomed to live in an eternity of toast monitoring
because some programmer found the 100 exabyte eDVD of our identity in
the bargain bin of the RIAA?

Can nobody else see why these absurdities are unavoidable in comp?


Absurdities is not contradiction. You have to compare with the QM  
absurdities and the alternatives.

Science is not wishful thinking.
I do not pretend that  comp is true. Just that it make Plato closer to  
the truth than Aristotle, and this in a way which explains how to  
derive the laws of physics from comp, so that we might test it.


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 29 Feb 2012, at 17:45, Craig Weinberg wrote:


On Feb 29, 5:03 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

On 28 Feb 2012, at 23:45, Craig Weinberg wrote:


On Feb 28, 5:15 pm, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:



the you
before is no more.



That's what I have been arguing all along. Yes, doctor = Yes, death.
It's delightful that there will be a digital imposter/identical twin
who believes that they are someone with the same qualities that I
believed I had, before I died, but it really it invalidates any
pretensions comp has of honoring 1p experience.


Well, that's make clear that you believe in zombie.


No, I believe in puppets. Don't you?


Sure. But the guy who comes back from the hospital does not look like  
a puppet to me, nor to you. And its has to be one, if yes-doctor = yes- 
death, as you argued. That puppet is by definition a zombie. Stathis  
has already made clear that point with you.











Disembodied consciousness is silly.



I don't think consciousness can exist without a body and an
environment...



Wait, so we actually agree on something?


I think we all agree on this. But comp explains the origin of the
coupling brain/environment. They are not ontologically primitive,
though.


I don't know that even physicists would say that matter is
ontologically primitive these days, but comp goes a step further to
say that matter is completely Turing emulable.


Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical processes  
not completely Turing emulable.












without that what to be conscious of ? The substitution is not
something
about disembodiment.



Bruno says all kinds of arithmetic dreams.


By the MGA.


But how can the
substitution not be synonymous with disembodied 'processes'? What
binds the experience of the program to the silicon?


The relative proportion of computation going through your state in
which silicon are observed.


?


By UDA step seven (in the case of comp + robust universe).

Tell me first if you get the sixth first steps, and I explain the  
seven one, if you are interested.


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Stephen P. King

On 2/29/2012 4:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 28 Feb 2012, at 20:17, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:


Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted with 
a program, that obviously imply comp (that we can substitue your 
brain with a digital one), but comp shows that to be inconsistent, 
because comp implies that any piece of matter is non-computable... 
it is the limit of the infinities of computation that goes through 
your consciousness current state.

[SPK1]
Can you see how this would be a problem for the entire digital 
uploading argument if functional substitution cannot occur in a 
strictly classical way, for example by strictly classical level 
measurement of brain structure? Any dependence of consciousness on 
quantum entanglement will prevent any form of digital substitution.


This is not correct. It would only make the comp subst. level lower, 
for we would need to Turing-emulated the entire quantum system. What 
you say would be true if a quantum computer was not Turing emulable, 
but it is. Sure, there is an exponential slow-down, but the UD does 
not care, nor the 'first persons' who cannot be aware of the delays.


Bruno

[SPK2]
This might not be a bad thing for Bruno's ontological argument - as 
it would show that 1p indeterminacy is a function or endomorphism of 
entire universes in the many-worlds sense - but would doom any 
change of immortality via digital uploading.

Dear Bruno,

Did you not see this last comment [SPK2] that I wrote? We need to 
distinguish between the actions on and by physical systems, such as 
human brains, and the platonic level systems. Your remark seemed to be 
one that was considering my comment [SPK1] as if it where discussing the 
Platonic level aspect. This is just probably a confusion caused by our 
use of the same words for the two completely different levels. For 
example, a physical system is a UTM if it can implement any enumerable 
recursive algorithm, aka is programable in the Turing Thesis sense, 
but its actual behavior is limited by its resources, transition speeds, 
etc. An abstract Platonic Machine, such as what you consider in SANE04, 
does not have any such limits.
I think that we should consider a formal way to describe these 
relations. Perhaps some one that is fluent in Category theory will come 
to help us in these discussions. We need a way to define the idea of 
the limit of the infinities of computations that go through a given 
consciousness state in a way that is more clear given that a given 
consciousness state is still a very ambiguous notion.


Onward!

Stephen

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread meekerdb

On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical processes not completely 
Turing emulable. 


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor who proposes to replace some 
part of your brain (which is made of matter) with a Turing emulation of it?


Brent

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/2/29 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

  On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

 Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical processes not
 completely Turing emulable.


 But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor who proposes
 to replace some part of your brain (which is made of matter) with a Turing
 emulation of it?


The turing emulation is not of the matter but of the mind...
Computationalism, is the theory that the mind is some sort of information
processor... the brain made of matter is just an UTM... any UTM could do
the job, the emulation is not of the brain made of matter but of the
consciousness.

Quentin



 Brent

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-29 Thread meekerdb

On 2/29/2012 12:10 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:



2012/2/29 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net

On 2/29/2012 10:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Comp says the exact contrary: it makes matter and physical processes not 
completely
Turing emulable. 


But it makes them enough TE so that you can yes to the doctor who proposes 
to
replace some part of your brain (which is made of matter) with a Turing 
emulation of it?


The turing emulation is not of the matter but of the mind... Computationalism, is the 
theory that the mind is some sort of information processor... the brain made of matter 
is just an UTM... any UTM could do the job, the emulation is not of the brain made of 
matter but of the consciousness.


But suppose I'm only replacing a small part of my brain.  There's on reason to suppose 
that part, by itself, is conscious.  Consciousness is supposed to be realized by the 
computation that the brain is doing.  So the question becomes, at what level of fidelity 
must I emulate that piece of brain I'm going to replace.  One answer would be at the 
lowest possible level, i.e. emulate the quarks and electrons and vacuum field 
fluctuations, then I'll be sure to survive with consciousness unchanged.  But that's 
emulating the matter of that piece of my brain, which Bruno says is not completely 
emulable.  If that can't be done, why should I believe there is any level that I should 
say 'yes' to?


Brent




Quentin

Brent
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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Stephen P. King

On 2/28/2012 4:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 27 Feb 2012, at 20:02, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/27/2012 12:26 PM, ronaldheld wrote:

What observations or measurements can I perform that would falsify
COMP?


Hi,

   Any measurement of a physical process that cannot be simulated by 
a Turing Machine equivalent computation.


That would contradict digital physics. But digital physics is 
self-contradictory (indeed it implies comp which implies the falsity 
of digital physics). Roughly speaking: if I am a machine, then 
everything else is not.


Dear Bruno,

Let me see if my thoughts are correct as I can best write them. 
COMP is the conjunction of Yes Doctor, the Church Thesis and 
Arithmetic Realism, correct? I am now not sure of the definition of 
Digital physics given this thread so far... From what I can tell, Yes 
Doctor is built on the idea of functional substitutability at some level 
or scale for physical systems, such that a given algorithm will run on 
any functionally equivalent physical system; it is basically a 
restatement of computational universality. This idea shows us that our 
consciousness is not dependent on a particular form of physical system 
if and only if our consciousness is algorithmic or computable in the 
Turing sense. I am agnostic on this because I do not see any evidence 
(pace Tegmark) that our brain's implementation of consciousness does not 
involve quantum entanglement.
My answer to Ronald's question was based on what I thought I 
understood of COMP, so it seems that I still do not understand COMP. 
Does not COMP require that any observation of our physical world be 
faithfully representable as a _finite_ list of yes or no type questions 
and their answers?






IOW, any non-computational physical process.


Comp implies non-comp (non Turing emulable first plural person) 
physical processes. Indeed the comp primitive matter is not Turing 
emulable, it is an infinite sum on infinite computations.


But this definition (of comp primitive matter) is fraught with 
the measure problem! Does this exclude an infinite collection of 
possible worlds to represent the physical systems that can implement 
that infinite computations? I suppose that you could say that it does as 
the UD will generate all possible Turing machine states, infinitely 
often (why?), which (by comp) includes all your virtual reconstitutions 
corresponding to (hopefully) consistent extensions of yourself, in all 
possible (locally) emulable environments or computational histories.
The usual idea that I am considering is that a physical system will 
have to be potentially infinite to satisfy the requirements of a 
universal Turing machine, as it has to have at least an infinite tape. 
You write:


Instead of linking [the pain I feel] at space-time (x,t) to [a machine 
state] at space-time
(x,t), we are obliged  to associate  [the pain  I  feel at  space-time  
(x,t)]  to a  type or a  sheaf of
computations  (existing  forever  in  the arithmetical  Platonia  which  
is  accepted  as  existing

independently of  our  selves  with  arithmetical  realism).

This seems to bypass the requirement of the concrete implementation 
of the UTM by appeal to the independent of the truth value of sigma_1 
sentences (or equivalent) such that you can then claim that:


not only physics has been  epistemologically  reduced to machine 
psychology, but that ''matter'' has been ontologically  reduced  to 
''mind'' where mind  is defined  as  the  object  study of fundamental 
machine psychology.


Therefore any considerations of, for example, thermodynamics is 
irrelevant as such would be derivable from the accidental correctness 
of Sigma_1 sentences.  This is interesting on its own as it strongly 
resembles the occasionalism 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occasionalism of Malebranche and others 
that was proposed to explain psycho-psychical parallelism between mental 
and physical events. Pratt's residuation 
http://books.google.com/books?id=2o9m_Z3nzYkCpg=PA108lpg=PA108dq=vaughan+pratt+residuationsource=blots=Za-09Qp9uMsig=tpt00W53pzzRQyqjppg-OCO_75Qhl=ensa=Xei=QOZMT9GUOZKztweczfU7sqi=2ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepageq=vaughan%20pratt%20residuationf=false 
solves this problem without AR's idealism, among other things, by 
reducing global computations to pairwise interactions between a 
potentially infinite number of computations. This is a form of 
accidentalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidentalism, but is more 
subtle as the relationship between mental and physical states/events 
does not need a causal explication. Additionally, Pratt's residuation 
proposal  (similar to this 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residuated_lattice concept) generates 
only consistent extensions of first person indeterminacy modulo 
arbitrarily large memory resources. It is only when memory resources are 
limited to being finite (Forgetfulness as what occurs in the Telephone 
game 

Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/2/28 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net

  On 2/28/2012 4:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


 On 27 Feb 2012, at 20:02, Stephen P. King wrote:

 On 2/27/2012 12:26 PM, ronaldheld wrote:

 What observations or measurements can I perform that would falsify
 COMP?

  Hi,

Any measurement of a physical process that cannot be simulated by a
 Turing Machine equivalent computation.


 That would contradict digital physics. But digital physics is
 self-contradictory (indeed it implies comp which implies the falsity of
 digital physics). Roughly speaking: if I am a machine, then everything
 else is not.


 Dear Bruno,

 Let me see if my thoughts are correct as I can best write them. COMP
 is the conjunction of Yes Doctor, the Church Thesis and Arithmetic
 Realism, correct? I am now not sure of the definition of Digital physics
 given this thread so far... From what I can tell, Yes Doctor is built on
 the idea of functional substitutability at some level or scale for physical
 systems, such that a given algorithm will run on any functionally
 equivalent physical system; it is basically a restatement of computational
 universality. This idea shows us that our consciousness is not dependent on
 a particular form of physical system if and only if our consciousness is
 algorithmic or computable in the Turing sense. I am agnostic on this
 because I do not see any evidence (pace Tegmark) that our brain's
 implementation of consciousness does not involve quantum entanglement.
 My answer to Ronald's question was based on what I thought I
 understood of COMP, so it seems that I still do not understand COMP. Does
 not COMP require that any observation of our physical world be faithfully
 representable as a *finite* list of yes or no type questions and their
 answers?


Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any
difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was
substituted for a digital brain.

Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted with a
program, that obviously imply comp (that we can substitue your brain with a
digital one), but comp shows that to be inconsistent, because comp implies
that any piece of matter is non-computable... it is the limit of the
infinities of computation that goes through your consciousness current
state.





 IOW, any non-computational physical process.


 Comp implies non-comp (non Turing emulable first plural person) physical
 processes. Indeed the comp primitive matter is not Turing emulable, it is
 an infinite sum on infinite computations.


 But this definition (of comp primitive matter) is fraught with the
 measure problem! Does this exclude an infinite collection of possible
 worlds to represent the physical systems that can implement that infinite
 computations? I suppose that you could say that it does as the UD will
 generate all possible Turing machine states, infinitely often (why?), which
 (by comp) includes all your virtual reconstitutions corresponding to
 (hopefully) consistent extensions of yourself, in all possible (locally)
 emulable environments or computational histories.
 The usual idea that I am considering is that a physical system will
 have to be potentially infinite to satisfy the requirements of a universal
 Turing machine, as it has to have at least an infinite tape. You write:

 Instead of linking [the pain I feel] at space-time (x,t) to [a machine
 state] at space-time
 (x,t), we are obliged  to associate  [the pain  I  feel at  space-time
 (x,t)]  to a  type or a  sheaf of
 computations  (existing  forever  in  the arithmetical  Platonia  which
 is  accepted  as  existing
 independently of  our  selves  with  arithmetical  realism).

 This seems to bypass the requirement of the concrete implementation of
 the UTM by appeal to the independent of the truth value of sigma_1
 sentences (or equivalent) such that you can then claim that:

 not only physics has been  epistemologically  reduced to machine
 psychology, but that ‘‘matter’’ has been ontologically  reduced  to
 ‘‘mind’’ where mind  is defined  as  the  object  study of fundamental
 machine psychology.

 Therefore any considerations of, for example, thermodynamics is
 irrelevant as such would be derivable from the accidental correctness of
 Sigma_1 sentences.  This is interesting on its own as it strongly resembles
 the occasionalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occasionalism of
 Malebranche and others that was proposed to explain psycho-psychical
 parallelism between mental and physical events. Pratt's 
 residuationhttp://books.google.com/books?id=2o9m_Z3nzYkCpg=PA108lpg=PA108dq=vaughan+pratt+residuationsource=blots=Za-09Qp9uMsig=tpt00W53pzzRQyqjppg-OCO_75Qhl=ensa=Xei=QOZMT9GUOZKztweczfU7sqi=2ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepageq=vaughan%20pratt%20residuationf=falsesolves
  this problem without AR's idealism, among other things, by reducing
 global computations to pairwise interactions between a potentially infinite
 number of 

Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 28 Feb 2012, at 16:29, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/28/2012 4:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:



On 27 Feb 2012, at 20:02, Stephen P. King wrote:


On 2/27/2012 12:26 PM, ronaldheld wrote:

What observations or measurements can I perform that would falsify
COMP?


Hi,

   Any measurement of a physical process that cannot be simulated  
by a Turing Machine equivalent computation.


That would contradict digital physics. But digital physics is self- 
contradictory (indeed it implies comp which implies the falsity of  
digital physics). Roughly speaking: if I am a machine, then  
everything else is not.


Dear Bruno,

Let me see if my thoughts are correct as I can best write them.  
COMP is the conjunction of Yes Doctor, the Church Thesis and  
Arithmetic Realism, correct?


Yes, but note that this is redundant. yes doctor means yes for a  
digital transplant. Church thesis is needed to make the term digital  
mathematically precise. And AR is needed to make Church thesis making  
sense.





I am now not sure of the definition of Digital physics given this  
thread so far... From what I can tell, Yes Doctor is built on the  
idea of functional substitutability at some level or scale for  
physical systems, such that a given algorithm will run on any  
functionally equivalent physical system; it is basically a  
restatement of computational universality.


I can say yes, to be short. but logically, universality is not used  
here. But this is a technical point on which I don't want to digress  
now. Primitive recursive function can have equivalent programs,  
despite there is no universal primitive recursive functions.




This idea shows us that our consciousness is not dependent on a  
particular form of physical system if and only if our consciousness  
is algorithmic or computable in the Turing sense. I am agnostic on  
this because I do not see any evidence (pace Tegmark) that our  
brain's implementation of consciousness does not involve quantum  
entanglement.
My answer to Ronald's question was based on what I thought I  
understood of COMP, so it seems that I still do not understand COMP.  
Does not COMP require that any observation of our physical world be  
faithfully representable as a finite list of yes or no type  
questions and their answers?


See Quentin's comment.
Comp is a priori neutral on any question of physics, until physics is  
derived from comp.










IOW, any non-computational physical process.


Comp implies non-comp (non Turing emulable first plural person)  
physical processes. Indeed the comp primitive matter is not  
Turing emulable, it is an infinite sum on infinite computations.


But this definition (of comp primitive matter) is fraught with  
the measure problem!


OK, but a precise one that we can handle with mathematical tools.  
That's the progress. Comp is fraught with tuns of problems. Comp is  
just a toll for making those problem precise.






Does this exclude an infinite collection of possible worlds to  
represent the physical systems that can implement that infinite  
computations?


A priori, no. Now in your sentence, the word worlds is ambiguous, so  
I  chose favorable interpretations of it, to make sense of what you say.




I suppose that you could say that it does as the UD will generate  
all possible Turing machine states, infinitely often (why?),


Due to the closure of the diagonalization, it can be proved that the  
phi_i sequence goes through all equivalent programs an infinity of  
times. It is called the padding theorem. It is obvious for most  
computer scientists, because you can always add useless code, but it  
is also a consequence of Kleene's second recursion theorem.





which (by comp) includes all your virtual reconstitutions  
corresponding to (hopefully) consistent extensions of yourself, in  
all possible (locally) emulable environments or computational  
histories.
The usual idea that I am considering is that a physical system  
will have to be potentially infinite to satisfy the requirements of  
a universal Turing machine, as it has to have at least an infinite  
tape.


The tape is not part of the universal machine. It is better to think  
about the universal machine as the code of such a machine on the tape  
(of some other one). Once a fixed ontological toe is given, a  
universal machine is a number. It is a finite object. This is  
important to keep in mind. i would not say that human or juming spider  
are Löbian (and thus universal) if that needs some infinity. For the  
1p, it is different because the 1p is indeterminate on infinity of  
computations, and this structures the logic differently.






You write:

Instead of linking [the pain I feel] at space-time (x,t) to [a  
machine state] at space-time
(x,t), we are obliged  to associate  [the pain  I  feel at  space- 
time  (x,t)]  to a  type or a  sheaf of
computations  (existing  forever  in  the arithmetical  Platonia   
which  is  accepted  as  

Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread meekerdb

On 2/28/2012 7:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

Dear Bruno,

Let me see if my thoughts are correct as I can best write them. COMP is the 
conjunction of Yes Doctor, the Church Thesis and Arithmetic Realism, correct? I am now 
not sure of the definition of Digital physics given this thread so far... From what I 
can tell, Yes Doctor is built on the idea of functional substitutability at some level 
or scale for physical systems, such that a given algorithm will run on any functionally 
equivalent physical system; it is basically a restatement of computational universality. 
This idea shows us that our consciousness is not dependent on a particular form of 
physical system if and only if our consciousness is algorithmic or computable in the 
Turing sense. I am agnostic on this because I do not see any evidence (pace Tegmark) 
that our brain's implementation of consciousness does not involve quantum entanglement. 


This is ambiguous.  Tegmark showed that quantum decoherence of ion locations in neural 
processes is much faster than neural signaling, therefore brain processing is almost all 
classical.  It is classical *because* there is quantum entanglement between the ions and 
the environment.  It is quantum entanglement with an environment (something with many 
degrees of freedom) that produces decoherence and classical behavior.  If you substitute 
for some neurons a silicon chip that is designed to be functionally identical, that 
functionally identical means it acts as a classical device to implement a certain 
computational algorithm.  Of course it will be quantum entangled with its environment 
because that's what makes it classical.


Maybe you meant you that you think brain processes may involve quantum coherent 
superpositions - but that's what Tegmark refuted.


Brent

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Stephen P. King

On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any 
difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was 
substituted for a digital brain.


 Hi Quentin,

OK, but could you elaborate on this statement? Is the 
differentiation that one _might_ feel, given the wrong substitution 
level, different from what _might_ occur if a digital uploading 
procedure is conducted that fails to generate complete continuity? Those 
does not feel any difference terms are a bit ambiguous and vague, IMHO.



Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted with a 
program, that obviously imply comp (that we can substitue your brain 
with a digital one), but comp shows that to be inconsistent, because 
comp implies that any piece of matter is non-computable... it is the 
limit of the infinities of computation that goes through your 
consciousness current state.


Can you see how this would be a problem for the entire digital 
uploading argument if functional substitution cannot occur in a strictly 
classical way, for example by strictly classical level measurement of 
brain structure? Any dependence of consciousness on quantum entanglement 
will prevent any form of digital substitution. This might not be a bad 
thing for Bruno's ontological argument - as it would show that 1p 
indeterminacy is a function or endomorphism of entire universes in the 
many-worlds sense - but would doom any change of immortality via digital 
uploading.


Onward!

Stephen


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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Stephen P. King

On 2/28/2012 1:32 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/28/2012 7:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

Dear Bruno,

Let me see if my thoughts are correct as I can best write them. 
COMP is the conjunction of Yes Doctor, the Church Thesis and 
Arithmetic Realism, correct? I am now not sure of the definition of 
Digital physics given this thread so far... From what I can tell, 
Yes Doctor is built on the idea of functional substitutability at 
some level or scale for physical systems, such that a given algorithm 
will run on any functionally equivalent physical system; it is 
basically a restatement of computational universality. This idea 
shows us that our consciousness is not dependent on a particular form 
of physical system if and only if our consciousness is algorithmic or 
computable in the Turing sense. I am agnostic on this because I do 
not see any evidence (pace Tegmark) that our brain's implementation 
of consciousness does not involve quantum entanglement. 


This is ambiguous.  Tegmark showed that quantum decoherence of ion 
locations in neural processes is much faster than neural signaling, 
therefore brain processing is almost all classical.  It is classical 
*because* there is quantum entanglement between the ions and the 
environment.  It is quantum entanglement with an environment 
(something with many degrees of freedom) that produces decoherence and 
classical behavior.  If you substitute for some neurons a silicon chip 
that is designed to be functionally identical, that functionally 
identical means it acts as a classical device to implement a certain 
computational algorithm.  Of course it will be quantum entangled with 
its environment because that's what makes it classical.


Maybe you meant you that you think brain processes may involve quantum 
coherent superpositions - but that's what Tegmark refuted.


Brent
--

Dear Brent,

Not so fast! Tegmark's argument only holds, if it can be 
experimentally verified that is,_only_ for ion transport based 
processes. Consider theexperimental evidence 
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/feature-stories/2010/05/10/untangling-quantum-entanglement/ 
for quantum entanglement in the photosynthesis process in algea, does 
that not make you pause just a little bit in making your proclamation?


Onward!

Stephen

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Stephen P. King

On 2/28/2012 1:40 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

Stephen did wrote that, not me... ;)

2012/2/28 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net

On 2/28/2012 7:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

Dear Bruno,

Let me see if my thoughts are correct as I can best write
them. COMP is the conjunction of Yes Doctor, the Church Thesis
and Arithmetic Realism, correct? I am now not sure of the
definition of Digital physics given this thread so far... From
what I can tell, Yes Doctor is built on the idea of functional
substitutability at some level or scale for physical systems,
such that a given algorithm will run on any functionally
equivalent physical system; it is basically a restatement of
computational universality. This idea shows us that our
consciousness is not dependent on a particular form of physical
system if and only if our consciousness is algorithmic or
computable in the Turing sense. I am agnostic on this because I
do not see any evidence (pace Tegmark) that our brain's
implementation of consciousness does not involve quantum
entanglement. 


This is ambiguous.  Tegmark showed that quantum decoherence of ion
locations in neural processes is much faster than neural
signaling, therefore brain processing is almost all classical.  It
is classical *because* there is quantum entanglement between the
ions and the environment.  It is quantum entanglement with an
environment (something with many degrees of freedom) that produces
decoherence and classical behavior.  If you substitute for some
neurons a silicon chip that is designed to be functionally
identical, that functionally identical means it acts as a
classical device to implement a certain computational algorithm. 
Of course it will be quantum entangled with its environment

because that's what makes it classical.

Maybe you meant you that you think brain processes may involve
quantum coherent superpositions - but that's what Tegmark refuted.

Brent


Hi Quentin,

Thank you for that. ;-)

Onward!

Stephen

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Stephen P. King

On 2/28/2012 2:38 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 2/28/2012 1:32 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/28/2012 7:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

Dear Bruno,

Let me see if my thoughts are correct as I can best write them. 
COMP is the conjunction of Yes Doctor, the Church Thesis and 
Arithmetic Realism, correct? I am now not sure of the definition of 
Digital physics given this thread so far... From what I can tell, 
Yes Doctor is built on the idea of functional substitutability at 
some level or scale for physical systems, such that a given 
algorithm will run on any functionally equivalent physical system; 
it is basically a restatement of computational universality. This 
idea shows us that our consciousness is not dependent on a 
particular form of physical system if and only if our consciousness 
is algorithmic or computable in the Turing sense. I am agnostic on 
this because I do not see any evidence (pace Tegmark) that our 
brain's implementation of consciousness does not involve quantum 
entanglement. 


This is ambiguous.  Tegmark showed that quantum decoherence of ion 
locations in neural processes is much faster than neural signaling, 
therefore brain processing is almost all classical.  It is classical 
*because* there is quantum entanglement between the ions and the 
environment.  It is quantum entanglement with an environment 
(something with many degrees of freedom) that produces decoherence 
and classical behavior.  If you substitute for some neurons a silicon 
chip that is designed to be functionally identical, that 
functionally identical means it acts as a classical device to 
implement a certain computational algorithm.  Of course it will be 
quantum entangled with its environment because that's what makes it 
classical.


Maybe you meant you that you think brain processes may involve 
quantum coherent superpositions - but that's what Tegmark refuted.


Brent
--

Dear Brent,

Not so fast! Tegmark's argument only holds, if it can be 
experimentally verified that is, _only_ for ion transport based 
processes. Consider theexperimental evidence 
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/feature-stories/2010/05/10/untangling-quantum-entanglement/ 
for quantum entanglement in the photosynthesis process in algea, does 
that not make you pause just a little bit in making your proclamation?
Also see http://arxiv.org/abs/1012.4059 (dec. 18, 2010), Focus on 
quantum effects and noise in biomolecules 
http://dx.doi.org/10.1088/1367-2630/13/11/115002 , 
http://arxiv.org/abs/1104.2337 for the latest on the topic.  
Classicality is not so easy to assume any more. I may seem unusually 
confident but I do have indirect knowledge, via personal friend, of the 
latest work at UC Berkeley on this question.


Onward!

Stephen

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread meekerdb

On 2/28/2012 11:38 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 2/28/2012 1:32 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/28/2012 7:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

Dear Bruno,

Let me see if my thoughts are correct as I can best write them. COMP is the 
conjunction of Yes Doctor, the Church Thesis and Arithmetic Realism, correct? I am 
now not sure of the definition of Digital physics given this thread so far... From 
what I can tell, Yes Doctor is built on the idea of functional substitutability at 
some level or scale for physical systems, such that a given algorithm will run on any 
functionally equivalent physical system; it is basically a restatement of 
computational universality. This idea shows us that our consciousness is not dependent 
on a particular form of physical system if and only if our consciousness is 
algorithmic or computable in the Turing sense. I am agnostic on this because I do not 
see any evidence (pace Tegmark) that our brain's implementation of consciousness does 
not involve quantum entanglement. 


This is ambiguous.  Tegmark showed that quantum decoherence of ion locations in neural 
processes is much faster than neural signaling, therefore brain processing is almost 
all classical.  It is classical *because* there is quantum entanglement between the 
ions and the environment.  It is quantum entanglement with an environment (something 
with many degrees of freedom) that produces decoherence and classical behavior.  If you 
substitute for some neurons a silicon chip that is designed to be functionally 
identical, that functionally identical means it acts as a classical device to 
implement a certain computational algorithm.  Of course it will be quantum entangled 
with its environment because that's what makes it classical.


Maybe you meant you that you think brain processes may involve quantum coherent 
superpositions - but that's what Tegmark refuted.


Brent
--

Dear Brent,

Not so fast! Tegmark's argument only holds, if it can be experimentally verified 
that is,_only_ for ion transport based processes. Consider theexperimental evidence 
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/feature-stories/2010/05/10/untangling-quantum-entanglement/ 
for quantum entanglement in the photosynthesis process in algea, does that not make you 
pause just a little bit in making your proclamation?


No. Obviously all processes are quantum, the question is whether neural signaling involves 
coherent superpositions.


Brent



Onward!

Stephen

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Feb 28, 10:43 am, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:

 Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any
 difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was
 substituted for a digital brain.

What if you have two digital substitute brains? Do you become both
copies yourself at once and still not feel any difference? If not, and
you are in brain A, do you appear inside brain B if you turn brain A
off?

Disembodied consciousness is silly.

Craig

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread meekerdb

On 2/28/2012 11:48 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 2/28/2012 2:38 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 2/28/2012 1:32 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/28/2012 7:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

Dear Bruno,

Let me see if my thoughts are correct as I can best write them. COMP is the 
conjunction of Yes Doctor, the Church Thesis and Arithmetic Realism, correct? I am 
now not sure of the definition of Digital physics given this thread so far... From 
what I can tell, Yes Doctor is built on the idea of functional substitutability at 
some level or scale for physical systems, such that a given algorithm will run on any 
functionally equivalent physical system; it is basically a restatement of 
computational universality. This idea shows us that our consciousness is not 
dependent on a particular form of physical system if and only if our consciousness is 
algorithmic or computable in the Turing sense. I am agnostic on this because I do not 
see any evidence (pace Tegmark) that our brain's implementation of consciousness does 
not involve quantum entanglement. 


This is ambiguous.  Tegmark showed that quantum decoherence of ion locations in neural 
processes is much faster than neural signaling, therefore brain processing is almost 
all classical.  It is classical *because* there is quantum entanglement between the 
ions and the environment.  It is quantum entanglement with an environment (something 
with many degrees of freedom) that produces decoherence and classical behavior.  If 
you substitute for some neurons a silicon chip that is designed to be functionally 
identical, that functionally identical means it acts as a classical device to 
implement a certain computational algorithm.  Of course it will be quantum entangled 
with its environment because that's what makes it classical.


Maybe you meant you that you think brain processes may involve quantum coherent 
superpositions - but that's what Tegmark refuted.


Brent
--

Dear Brent,

Not so fast! Tegmark's argument only holds, if it can be experimentally verified 
that is, _only_ for ion transport based processes. Consider theexperimental evidence 
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/feature-stories/2010/05/10/untangling-quantum-entanglement/ 
for quantum entanglement in the photosynthesis process in algea, does that not make you 
pause just a little bit in making your proclamation?
Also see http://arxiv.org/abs/1012.4059 (dec. 18, 2010), Focus on quantum effects 
and noise in biomolecules http://dx.doi.org/10.1088/1367-2630/13/11/115002 , 
http://arxiv.org/abs/1104.2337 for the latest on the topic. 


None of those have anything to do with neural signaling in the brain.  They are about 
metabolism and other molecular level processes.  If you think that the brain works by 
molecular level processes then you need to explain why it is made of neurons with very 
complex and extensive axon interconnections.  If consciousness were implemented by 
molecular level information processing then a brain could be structured like a liver.


Brent

Classicality is not so easy to assume any more. I may seem unusually confident but I do 
have indirect knowledge, via personal friend, of the latest work at UC Berkeley on this 
question.


Onward!

Stephen

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4837 - Release Date: 02/28/12

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread meekerdb

On 2/28/2012 12:29 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Feb 28, 10:43 am, Quentin Anciauxallco...@gmail.com  wrote:

Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any
difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was
substituted for a digital brain.

What if you have two digital substitute brains? Do you become both
copies yourself at once and still not feel any difference? If not, and
you are in brain A, do you appear inside brain B if you turn brain A
off?

Disembodied consciousness is silly.

Craig



The implication of Comp is that there is no you.  You are an abstraction, a fiction, 
just another element in a model of the world.


Brent

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Feb 28, 3:41 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


 The implication of Comp is that there is no you.  You are an abstraction, 
 a fiction,
 just another element in a model of the world.


That's why I say comp has only a pseudo-1p conception of
consciousness. It's not difficult to claim that the hard problem isn't
so hard if you allow the hardness of it to be fictional.

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/2/28 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com

 On Feb 28, 10:43 am, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any
  difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was
  substituted for a digital brain.

 What if you have two digital substitute brains? Do you become both
 copies yourself at once


No


 and still not feel any difference? If not, and
 you are in brain A, do you appear inside brain B if you turn brain A
 off?

 Brain A and Brain B will feel has being a continuation of the you before
substitution... they'll both be your future you and both feel it... the you
before is no more. (even if you keep your current body... it's just
adding a brain C... and same reasonning).


 Disembodied consciousness is silly.

 I don't think consciousness can exist without a body and an environment...
without that what to be conscious of ? The substitution is not something
about disembodiment.

Quentin


 Craig

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/2/28 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net

  On 2/28/2012 10:43 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

 Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any
 difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was
 substituted for a digital brain.


  Hi Quentin,

 OK, but could you elaborate on this statement?


It means an hypothetical you after mind uploading would feel as conscious
as you're now in your biological body, and you would steel *feel* and feel
being you and conscious and all...


 Is the differentiation that one *might* feel, given the wrong
 substitution level, different from what *might* occur if a digital
 uploading procedure is conducted that fails to generate complete
 continuity?


It depends on the wrongness of the substitution or the lack of
continuity... it's not binary outcome.


 Those does not feel any difference terms are a bit ambiguous and vague,
 IMHO.



  Digital physics says that the whole universe can be substituted with a
 program, that obviously imply comp (that we can substitue your brain with a
 digital one), but comp shows that to be inconsistent, because comp implies
 that any piece of matter is non-computable... it is the limit of the
 infinities of computation that goes through your consciousness current
 state.


 Can you see how this would be a problem for the entire digital
 uploading argument if functional substitution cannot occur in a strictly
 classical way, for example by strictly classical level measurement of brain
 structure?


Yes, and if it is, it is a big indication that comp is somehow wrong...


 Any dependence of consciousness on quantum entanglement will prevent any
 form of digital substitution. This might not be a bad thing for Bruno's
 ontological argument - as it would show that 1p indeterminacy is a function
 or endomorphism of entire universes in the many-worlds sense - but would
 doom any change of immortality via digital uploading.


Sure, but if the level is that down... then even if it is still compatible
with comp, for all practical purposes, it's the same as if it was wrong...

Quentin


 Onward!

 Stephen


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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Feb 28, 5:15 pm, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:

 the you
 before is no more.

That's what I have been arguing all along. Yes, doctor = Yes, death.
It's delightful that there will be a digital imposter/identical twin
who believes that they are someone with the same qualities that I
believed I had, before I died, but it really it invalidates any
pretensions comp has of honoring 1p experience.



  Disembodied consciousness is silly.

  I don't think consciousness can exist without a body and an environment...

Wait, so we actually agree on something?


 without that what to be conscious of ? The substitution is not something
 about disembodiment.

Bruno says all kinds of arithmetic dreams. But how can the
substitution not be synonymous with disembodied 'processes'? What
binds the experience of the program to the silicon?


Craig

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/2/28 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com

 On Feb 28, 5:15 pm, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:

  the you
  before is no more.

 That's what I have been arguing all along. Yes, doctor = Yes, death.


No... tell me where is the you of 1 second ago ? When I say no more.. I
mean that... the you now, is not the you of one second ago, that you one
second ago is in the past, he is in the past and nowhere to be found in the
current moment, in the current moment, there is only the current you.

Beside that, that identity question is the same in MWI context.


 It's delightful that there will be a digital imposter/identical twin
 who believes that they are someone with the same qualities that I
 believed I had, before I died, but it really it invalidates any
 pretensions comp has of honoring 1p experience.


 
   Disembodied consciousness is silly.
 
   I don't think consciousness can exist without a body and an
 environment...

 Wait, so we actually agree on something?

 
  without that what to be conscious of ? The substitution is not something
  about disembodiment.

 Bruno says all kinds of arithmetic dreams. But how can the
 substitution not be synonymous with disembodied 'processes'? What
 binds the experience of the program to the silicon?


 Craig

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Feb 28, 6:10 pm, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:
 2012/2/28 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com

  On Feb 28, 5:15 pm, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:

   the you
   before is no more.

  That's what I have been arguing all along. Yes, doctor = Yes, death.

 No... tell me where is the you of 1 second ago ?

I'm still here. The passage of time isn't objectively real. Nothing is
actually disappearing or passing away because of time alone.

 When I say no more.. I
 mean that... the you now, is not the you of one second ago, that you one
 second ago is in the past, he is in the past and nowhere to be found in the
 current moment, in the current moment, there is only the current you.

No, the current me contains my entire history. Nothing is lost, even
if I can't consciously recall particular memories. I don't remember
learning to read these words, but the experience of learning to read
them now is part of my perception of them. It's an inertial frame of
semantic relation that accumulates through experience, regardless of
the passage of time.


 Beside that, that identity question is the same in MWI context.

It fails in that context too. The logic doesn't hold up. If I replace
my brain with a digital device, I either go on living my life or I do
not. If I do, then there can be no difference between one digital
brain and two and I would have to be now be living my life out of two
or (or two thousand) brains simultaneously. I think that this is the
only viable answer if we believe in comp, since the idea of arithmetic
truth makes identity something like an eternal radio frequency which
can be accessed at any time and plugged into any universal machine. To
me, it's clear that what would happen instead is that replacing your
brain with a digital puppet would cause you to lapse into a coma and
then die, while your body lived on doing an uncanny imitation of you
for an amazed audience.


Craig

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Stephen P. King

On 2/28/2012 3:41 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/28/2012 12:29 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Feb 28, 10:43 am, Quentin Anciauxallco...@gmail.com  wrote:

Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any
difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was
substituted for a digital brain.

What if you have two digital substitute brains? Do you become both
copies yourself at once and still not feel any difference? If not, and
you are in brain A, do you appear inside brain B if you turn brain A
off?

Disembodied consciousness is silly.

Craig



The implication of Comp is that there is no you.  You are an 
abstraction, a fiction, just another element in a model of the world.


Brent


Hi,

Just a question about the semantics. What difference is there 
between a you and an abstraction that is indistinguishable from it?


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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread Stephen P. King

On 2/28/2012 3:39 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/28/2012 11:48 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:


Not so fast! Tegmark's argument only holds, if it can be 
experimentally verified that is, _only_ for ion transport based 
processes. Consider theexperimental evidence 
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/feature-stories/2010/05/10/untangling-quantum-entanglement/ 
for quantum entanglement in the photosynthesis process in algea, 
does that not make you pause just a little bit in making your 
proclamation?

Also see http://arxiv.org/abs/1012.4059Dear Brent,
(dec. 18, 2010), Focus on quantum effects and noise in biomolecules 
http://dx.doi.org/10.1088/1367-2630/13/11/115002 , 
http://arxiv.org/abs/1104.2337 for the latest on the topic. 


None of those have anything to do with neural signaling in the brain.  
They are about metabolism and other molecular level processes.  If you 
think that the brain works by molecular level processes then you need 
to explain why it is made of neurons with very complex and extensive 
axon interconnections.  If consciousness were implemented by molecular 
level information processing then a brain could be structured like a 
liver.


OK, I look forward to you getting a scan of your neuron connection 
network and getting it run as a computational simulation. Then I might 
have email conversations with two Brents! ;-)



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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread meekerdb

On 2/28/2012 9:40 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 2/28/2012 3:41 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/28/2012 12:29 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Feb 28, 10:43 am, Quentin Anciauxallco...@gmail.com  wrote:

Comp substitute consciousness... such as you could not feel any
difference (in your consciousness from your POV) if your brain was
substituted for a digital brain.

What if you have two digital substitute brains? Do you become both
copies yourself at once and still not feel any difference? If not, and
you are in brain A, do you appear inside brain B if you turn brain A
off?

Disembodied consciousness is silly.

Craig



The implication of Comp is that there is no you.  You are an abstraction, a 
fiction, just another element in a model of the world.


Brent


Hi,

Just a question about the semantics. What difference is there between a you and an 
abstraction that is indistinguishable from it?


The difference is that there isn't *a* you, there are arbitrarily many or at least there 
will be momentarily.  The absraction is tracing just one of these.  This is already a 
consequence of MWI in which quantum events cause you to split into orthogonal 
subspaces.  To the extent consciousness is realized by classical processes the splitting 
only happens when the quantum events have classical level effects.


Brent

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Re: COMP test (ontology of COMP)

2012-02-28 Thread meekerdb

On 2/28/2012 9:43 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 2/28/2012 3:39 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/28/2012 11:48 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:


Not so fast! Tegmark's argument only holds, if it can be experimentally verified 
that is, _only_ for ion transport based processes. Consider theexperimental evidence 
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/feature-stories/2010/05/10/untangling-quantum-entanglement/ 
for quantum entanglement in the photosynthesis process in algea, does that not make 
you pause just a little bit in making your proclamation?

Also see http://arxiv.org/abs/1012.4059Dear Brent,
(dec. 18, 2010), Focus on quantum effects and noise in biomolecules 
http://dx.doi.org/10.1088/1367-2630/13/11/115002 , http://arxiv.org/abs/1104.2337 
for the latest on the topic. 


None of those have anything to do with neural signaling in the brain.  They are about 
metabolism and other molecular level processes.  If you think that the brain works by 
molecular level processes then you need to explain why it is made of neurons with very 
complex and extensive axon interconnections.  If consciousness were implemented by 
molecular level information processing then a brain could be structured like a liver.


OK, I look forward to you getting a scan of your neuron connection network and 
getting it run as a computational simulation. Then I might have email conversations with 
two Brents! ;-)


That would an impressive technological achievement.  But it might involve destroying the 
first Brent.  :(



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