Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-16 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: What does the popularity of porn and gossip have to do with the capacity of computers to think and feel? I have no idea, but that's one of the best Zen Koans I've ever heard. There is no other logical conclusion to make given

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-16 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, March 16, 2013 1:42:29 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: What does the popularity of porn and gossip have to do with the capacity of computers to think and feel? I have no idea, but that's one of the best

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-14 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 14, 2013 11:38:10 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: There is no other logical conclusion to make given the FACT that if your brain chemistry changes your emotions change, AND if your

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-13 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Your view is that emotion must be local to the brain There is no other logical conclusion to make given the FACT that if your brain chemistry changes your emotions change, AND if your emotions change your brain chemistry

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:14:00 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: Your view is that emotion must be local to the brain There is no other logical conclusion to make given the FACT that if your brain chemistry

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-11 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: There is no evidence to support the locality of emotional experience to neurochemistry, Change the brain chemistry and emotions ALWAYS change, change the emotions and the brain chemistry ALWAYS changes; evidence just doesn't

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, March 11, 2013 1:52:54 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: There is no evidence to support the locality of emotional experience to neurochemistry, Change the brain chemistry and emotions ALWAYS change,

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-10 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: What I am saying though is that even a perfect correlation does not mean direct causation. Everyone has a brain and a heart, but that doesn't mean the brain causes the heart. Up to now whenever we observe a fully functioning

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-10 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, March 10, 2013 11:57:16 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: What I am saying though is that even a perfect correlation does not mean direct causation. Everyone has a brain and a heart, but that doesn't mean the

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, March 9, 2013 1:01:50 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 , Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: who would vow never to change their views? The religious faithful. I'm not sure I would say that is their view, so much as the view of an

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Mar 2013, at 23:37, Telmo Menezes wrote: Alex Trebek: This tool can unclog a toilet. Watson: What is a plunger? Telmo Menezes: look Watson, I have a problem. My wife is mad at me and I don't know why. I suspect it's because I didn't buy her flowers for Valentine's, but she keeps

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-08 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Telmo Menezes: look Watson, I have a problem. My wife is mad at me and I don't know why. I suspect it's because I didn't buy her flowers for Valentine's, but she keeps telling me that she doesn't want them. Can you give me some

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-08 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 , Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: who would vow never to change their views? The religious faithful. By simple logic the answer has to be yes if the following conditions are met. If whenever a traffic jam happens the sun goes down and whenever the sun goes

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-08 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/9/2013 1:01 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 , Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: who would vow never to change their views? The religious faithful. Dear John, Could you consider the possibility that the religiously faithful

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-08 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Stephen Hawking can look at someone doing it and eventually figure it out, and then instruct me to do exactly what he says and unclog the toilet. The sad, very sad, fact is that without computers Stephen Hawking couldn't

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-08 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/9/2013 1:12 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com mailto:te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Stephen Hawking can look at someone doing it and eventually figure it out, and then instruct me to do exactly what he says and unclog the toilet.

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-07 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: but back in the days of my awesome Atari 800 computer, there was a program called S.A.M. which sounded like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nqixe3WrQ Now, 31 years later, we have this:

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 7, 2013 12:12:31 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: but back in the days of my awesome Atari 800 computer, there was a program called S.A.M. which sounded like this:

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-07 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: Everything simulated is physical ultimately, but the physical has no signs of being a simulation, Maybe, but I'm not sure what sort of sign you're talking about and some have said only half joking that Black Holes,

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 7, 2013 4:16:40 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: Everything simulated is physical ultimately, but the physical has no signs of being a simulation, Maybe, but I'm not sure what sort of sign you're

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-07 Thread Telmo Menezes
Alex Trebek: This tool can unclog a toilet. Watson: What is a plunger? Telmo Menezes: look Watson, I have a problem. My wife is mad at me and I don't know why. I suspect it's because I didn't buy her flowers for Valentine's, but she keeps telling me that she doesn't want them. Can you give me

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-07 Thread meekerdb
On 3/7/2013 2:37 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Telmo Menezes: look Watson, I have a problem. My wife is mad at me and I don't know why. I suspect it's because I didn't buy her flowers for Valentine's, but she keeps telling me that she doesn't want them. Can you give me some advice? Also, how does it

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 7, 2013 5:37:55 PM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote: Alex Trebek: This tool can unclog a toilet. Watson: What is a plunger? Telmo Menezes: look Watson, I have a problem. My wife is mad at me and I don't know why. I suspect it's because I didn't buy her flowers for

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/7/2013 5:37 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Alex Trebek: This tool can unclog a toilet. Watson: What is a plunger? Telmo Menezes: look Watson, I have a problem. My wife is mad at me and I don't know why. I suspect it's because I didn't buy her flowers for Valentine's, but she keeps telling me

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-06 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/6/2013 1:45 PM, John Clark wrote: I just saw the movie Beowulf, it's a pretty good movie but what is of interest is the stunning advance in animation achieved by good old Moore's Law. There were times when I could swear I was looking at a real human being not something a computer

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-06 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 1:45:17 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 4:03 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Everything simulated is physical ultimately, but the physical has no signs of being a simulation, Maybe, but I'm not sure what sort

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-06 Thread meekerdb
On 3/6/2013 10:45 AM, John Clark wrote: I just saw the movie Beowulf, it's a pretty good movie but what is of interest is the stunning advance in animation achieved by good old Moore's Law. There were times when I could swear I was looking at a real human being not something a computer

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-06 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/6/2013 4:18 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/6/2013 10:45 AM, John Clark wrote: I just saw the movie Beowulf, it's a pretty good movie but what is of interest is the stunning advance in animation achieved by good old Moore's Law. There were times when I could swear I was looking at a real human

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-06 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 6:00:48 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 3/6/2013 4:18 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/6/2013 10:45 AM, John Clark wrote: I just saw the movie Beowulf, it's a pretty good movie but what is of interest is the stunning advance in animation achieved by good

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 04 Mar 2013, at 17:06, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: As I've said before it's important not to confuse levels, a simulated flame won't burn your computer but it will burn a simulated object. No, that argument is bogus. There is

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-05 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: No software can be run without being grounded in physical hardware, And no human mind can exist without a physical brain. and no software can be completely sequestered from any other software And human ideas cannot no

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 1:16:59 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: No software can be run without being grounded in physical hardware, And no human mind can exist without a physical brain. I wasn't trying to

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-04 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: As I've said before it's important not to confuse levels, a simulated flame won't burn your computer but it will burn a simulated object. No, that argument is bogus. There is only one physical level. HOW THE HELL DO YOU

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-04 Thread John Clark
In physics we sometimes get big numbers, like 10^88 or 10^120, but we never need 10^120 + 1. When we use the known laws of Quantum Mechanics to calculate the strength of Dark Energy it gives us a value that is ABOUT 10^120 times larger than the value we actually observe. So a successful Theory

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, March 4, 2013 11:06:46 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: As I've said before it's important not to confuse levels, a simulated flame won't burn your computer but it will burn a simulated object. No, that

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Mar 2013, at 21:58, meekerdb wrote: On 3/2/2013 1:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 20:37, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 8:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 16:28, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 7:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2013, at 20:29,

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Mar 2013, at 01:46, meekerdb wrote: On 3/2/2013 1:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 21:02, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 9:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In physics we sometimes get big numbers, like 10^88 or 10^120, but we never need 10^120 + 1. But physics is no more

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Mar 2013, at 16:58, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 7:48 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: The point of this thread was to show that even geometry is not at all indicated from math or computation, and derives solely from sensory experiences of shapes. Can you dispute this? Sure. Can you prove

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Mar 2013, at 17:17, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 10:58:34 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 7:48 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: The point of this thread was to show that even geometry is not at all indicated from math or computation, and derives solely from sensory

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Mar 2013, at 20:03, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 12:41:52 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 16:42, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 10:23:24 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 01:11, Craig Weinberg wrote: On

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Mar 2013, at 20:37, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 8:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 16:28, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 7:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2013, at 20:29, meekerdb wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:59 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:33 AM, John

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Mar 2013, at 21:02, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 9:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In physics we sometimes get big numbers, like 10^88 or 10^120, but we never need 10^120 + 1. But physics is no more assumed in the TOE derived from comp. I'll bet you've never needed to calculate 10^120

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-02 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 1, 2013 10:02:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 4:57 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 7:47:14 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 3:38 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 4:32:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:52

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-02 Thread meekerdb
On 3/2/2013 1:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 20:37, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 8:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 16:28, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 7:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2013, at 20:29, meekerdb wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:59 AM, Stephen P.

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-02 Thread meekerdb
On 3/2/2013 1:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 21:02, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 9:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In physics we sometimes get big numbers, like 10^88 or 10^120, but we never need 10^120 + 1. But physics is no more assumed in the TOE derived from comp. I'll

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 1, 2013 12:46:55 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 5:30 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:01:48 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 4:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:37:50 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Feb 2013, at 14:58, Stephen P. King wrote: On 2/28/2013 7:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2013, at 05:04, meekerdb wrote: You are assuming that justification comes from logic; and indeed it is too much to expect from such a weak source. I look for such justification as can

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Feb 2013, at 19:03, meekerdb wrote: On 2/28/2013 4:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2013, at 05:04, meekerdb wrote: On 2/27/2013 7:17 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Feb 2013, at 20:40, meekerdb wrote: On 2/27/2013 2:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Feb 2013, at 21:40,

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Feb 2013, at 19:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2013 1:03:40 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 4:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2013, at 05:04, meekerdb wrote: On 2/27/2013 7:17 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Feb 2013, at 20:40, meekerdb wrote: On

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Feb 2013, at 20:29, meekerdb wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:59 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:33 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: It is a basic law of logic that if X is not Y and X is not not Y then X is

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Mar 2013, at 01:11, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:37:50 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 1:50 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You have no way of knowing what I can't know about you either. You have no way of knowing what ways I have of knowing what you know

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 7:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2013, at 20:29, meekerdb wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:59 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:33 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: It

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 7:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that what you ask is possible, even if I am pretty sure that x + 0 = x, x + s(y) = s(x + y), etc. I'm not at all sure that there is successor for every x. Then you adopt ultrafinitism, and indeed comp does not make sense with such

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 3:09 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 12:46:55 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 5:30 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:01:48 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 4:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday,

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 1, 2013 10:23:24 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 01:11, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:37:50 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 1:50 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You have no way of knowing what I can't know about you either.

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 1, 2013 10:39:05 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 3:09 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 12:46:55 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 5:30 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:01:48 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 7:48 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: The point of this thread was to show that even geometry is not at all indicated from math or computation, and derives solely from sensory experiences of shapes. Can you dispute this? Sure. Can you prove it? Prove what, that

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 1, 2013 10:58:34 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 7:48 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: The point of this thread was to show that even geometry is not at all indicated from math or computation, and derives solely from sensory experiences of shapes. Can you dispute this?

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Mar 2013, at 16:28, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 7:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2013, at 20:29, meekerdb wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:59 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:33 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Mar 2013, at 16:37, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 7:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that what you ask is possible, even if I am pretty sure that x + 0 = x, x + s(y) = s(x + y), etc. I'm not at all sure that there is successor for every x. Then you adopt ultrafinitism, and

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Mar 2013, at 16:42, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 10:23:24 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 01:11, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:37:50 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 1:50 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You have no way of

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 8:17 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 10:58:34 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 7:48 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: The point of this thread was to show that even geometry is not at all indicated from math or computation, and derives solely

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 1, 2013 12:41:52 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 16:42, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 10:23:24 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 01:11, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:37:50 PM UTC-5, Brent

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 8:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 01 Mar 2013, at 16:28, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 7:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2013, at 20:29, meekerdb wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:59 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:33 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:48 PM,

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 9:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In physics we sometimes get big numbers, like 10^88 or 10^120, but we never need 10^120 + 1. But physics is no more assumed in the TOE derived from comp. I'll bet you've never needed to calculate 10^120 + 1 in the world whose TOE is derived from

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 11:03 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: If we have some written characters is it possible to categorize them optically, but these categories don't lead to discovery of any phonetic information. Sure they do. Just try http://www.naturalreaders.com/howto.php?referp=mainbar Likewise,

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 1, 2013 3:10:30 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 11:03 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: If we have some written characters is it possible to categorize them optically, but these categories don't lead to discovery of any phonetic information. Sure they do. Just try

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 12:20 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It doesn't matter how many knee-jerk twitches you put together or in what order, they are still always going to be empty, mindless mechanisms. Repeated assertions aren't evidence. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 1, 2013 3:33:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:20 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It doesn't matter how many knee-jerk twitches you put together or in what order, they are still always going to be empty, mindless mechanisms. Repeated assertions aren't evidence.

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 12:52 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 3:33:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:20 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It doesn't matter how many knee-jerk twitches you put together or in what order, they are still always going to be empty, mindless

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: All that matters is that we understand that there is no presentation quality to a file. Presentation is 100% in the interpreter. And a computer can be and often is the interpreter. You are really saying that we

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 1, 2013 4:32:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:52 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 3:33:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:20 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It doesn't matter how many knee-jerk twitches you put together or in what

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 3:38 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 4:32:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:52 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 3:33:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:20 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It doesn't matter how

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 1, 2013 4:37:41 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: All that matters is that we understand that there is no presentation quality to a file. Presentation is 100% in the interpreter. And a

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 1, 2013 7:47:14 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 3:38 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 4:32:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:52 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 3:33:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:20

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/1/2013 4:32 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:52 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 3:33:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:20 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It doesn't matter how many knee-jerk twitches you put together or in what order, they are still

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 4:57 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 7:47:14 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 3:38 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 4:32:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:52 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1,

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 5:04 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/1/2013 4:32 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:52 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 1, 2013 3:33:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 12:20 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It doesn't matter how many knee-jerk twitches you put

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Feb 2013, at 05:04, meekerdb wrote: On 2/27/2013 7:17 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Feb 2013, at 20:40, meekerdb wrote: On 2/27/2013 2:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Feb 2013, at 21:40, meekerdb wrote: On 2/26/2013 1:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: How did number arise? We

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread Stephen P. King
On 2/28/2013 7:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2013, at 05:04, meekerdb wrote: You are assuming that justification comes from logic; and indeed it is too much to expect from such a weak source. I look for such justification as can be found from experience, which you demoted to mere

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: Even if it could [ tell the difference between a audio and a video file] that would only represent a more advanced file analysis function, not any kind of audio or video sensitivity. Please explain the difference

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: It is a basic law of logic that if X is not Y and X is not not Y then X is gibberish, X = alcohol Y = poison. becomes alcohol is not poison and alcohol isn't not poison Exactly, and 2 negatives, like isn't

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, February 28, 2013 10:08:07 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Even if it could [ tell the difference between a audio and a video file] that would only represent a more advanced file analysis

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread meekerdb
On 2/28/2013 4:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2013, at 05:04, meekerdb wrote: On 2/27/2013 7:17 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Feb 2013, at 20:40, meekerdb wrote: On 2/27/2013 2:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Feb 2013, at 21:40, meekerdb wrote: On 2/26/2013 1:24 AM, Bruno

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, February 28, 2013 1:03:40 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 4:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2013, at 05:04, meekerdb wrote: On 2/27/2013 7:17 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Feb 2013, at 20:40, meekerdb wrote: On 2/27/2013 2:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread Stephen P. King
On 2/28/2013 10:33 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: It is a basic law of logic that if X is not Y and X is not not Y then X is gibberish, X = alcohol Y = poison. becomes

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread Craig Weinberg
Thanks. I think you pretty much covered it :) On Thursday, February 28, 2013 1:59:55 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:33 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: It is a basic law of logic that

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread meekerdb
On 2/28/2013 10:59 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:33 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: It is a basic law of logic that if X is not Y and X is not not Y then X is

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote Even if it could [ tell the difference between a audio and a video file] that would only represent a more advanced file analysis function, not any kind of audio or video sensitivity. Please explain the difference

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:52:59 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote Even if it could [ tell the difference between a audio and a video file] that would only represent a more advanced file analysis

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread meekerdb
On 2/28/2013 1:50 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You have no way of knowing what I can't know about you either. You have no way of knowing what ways I have of knowing what you know about what ways John knows of having ways of knowing about what you can know...either. :-) Brent blather, n.

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:37:50 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 1:50 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You have no way of knowing what I can't know about you either. You have no way of knowing what ways I have of knowing what you know about what ways John knows of having ways of

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread Stephen P. King
On 2/28/2013 2:29 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:59 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:33 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: It is a basic law of logic that if X is not Y and X

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread meekerdb
On 2/28/2013 4:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:37:50 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 1:50 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You have no way of knowing what I can't know about you either. You have no way of knowing what ways I have of knowing what you

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread meekerdb
On 2/28/2013 4:48 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 2/28/2013 2:29 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:59 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 2/28/2013 10:33 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: It is

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:01:48 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 4:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:37:50 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 1:50 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You have no way of knowing what I can't know about you either.

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-28 Thread meekerdb
On 2/28/2013 5:30 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:01:48 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 4:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:37:50 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2013 1:50 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You have

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Feb 2013, at 21:40, meekerdb wrote: On 2/26/2013 1:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: How did number arise? We don't know that, but we can show that if we don't assume them, or equivalent (basically anything Turing Universal), then we cannot derive them. I'm not sure how you mean that?

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Feb 2013, at 23:38, John Mikes wrote: Bruno, I appreciate your effort to reply to my silly questions. Question are never silly. Answer are always silly. I accept your positions, nothing 'new' or 'surprising' in them now. Yet I raised one little suspicion in ...How did number

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Feb 2013, at 00:01, meekerdb wrote: On 2/26/2013 2:41 PM, John Mikes wrote: Brent: you jumped into 'counting'. What would that be without numbers? It's a one-to-one relation between objects. If you invent a special set of tokens (1, 2, 3) that everybody agrees on (i.e. a part of

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