Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 23:03, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 2:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that comes from your assumption that belief=provable UDA does not use that assumption. And AUDA uses only the assumption that you believe in what PA can prove That is provable=believed. That is

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 23:35, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:08 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 22:01, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be snip And, in AUDA,

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Jan 2014, at 00:13, LizR wrote: Indeed it would be very strange, perhaps verging on miraculous. I believe just the nuclear resonance discovered by Hoyle alone is already incredibly fine tuned, after which we have the amazing properties of carbon and water, and the cosmological

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Jan 2014, at 04:55, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 3:13 PM, LizR wrote: Indeed it would be very strange, perhaps verging on miraculous. I believe just the nuclear resonance discovered by Hoyle alone is already incredibly fine tuned, after which we have the amazing properties of

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-18 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 23:24, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Interesting. This illustrates perhaps some spectrum of different geographies possible, with the same physics, but different parameters. The WAP requires that, otherwise the fine tuning starts to look a little (tries to think of

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 18:27, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: The simplest and by far most likely answer is to assume that the world we appear to live in IS the real actual world Maybe. But it could be argued that if the ability to

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/17 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 16 Jan 2014, at 18:27, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: The simplest and by far most likely answer is to assume that the world we appear to live in IS the real actual world Maybe. But

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 19:10, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:40, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And the answer is yes, he would know that, but not immediately. So it would not change the indeterminacy, as he will

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 19:18, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 12:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:44, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:39, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 10:29, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 22:01, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 16 Jan 2014, at 10:28, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: On

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2014, at 08:55, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 17 January 2014 10:01, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: You can disagree, but it's a fact, we can make video game, so we can make any rules we want in the created virtual worlds, nothing

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread meekerdb
On 1/17/2014 2:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that comes from your assumption that belief=provable UDA does not use that assumption. And AUDA uses only the assumption that you believe in what PA can prove That is provable=believed. , and that you are willing to be cautious on believing

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
On 17 January 2014 20:55, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2014/1/16 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 17 January 2014 10:01, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: You can disagree, but it's a fact, we can make video game, so we can make any rules we want in the created virtual

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
I hope I will be able to clarify, after explaining the modal logic, why comp put maximal constraints on the physical law, making all the rest different instantiations of those laws. I will be very interested to know why this is so, assuming my brain can handle it. A lot of people have

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:08 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 22:01, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 16 Jan 2014, at 10:28, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Bruno

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
Indeed it would be very strange, perhaps verging on miraculous. I believe just the nuclear resonance discovered by Hoyle alone is already incredibly fine tuned, after which we have the amazing properties of carbon and water, and the cosmological flatness and god (ahem) knows what else. On 18

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread meekerdb
On 1/17/2014 3:13 PM, LizR wrote: Indeed it would be very strange, perhaps verging on miraculous. I believe just the nuclear resonance discovered by Hoyle alone is already incredibly fine tuned, after which we have the amazing properties of carbon and water, and the cosmological flatness and

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
OK, I withdraw the incredibly. I'm just going by what folks tell me on this, plus no doubt a natural tendency towards hyperbole. So we still have the properties of water and carbon and god knows what else. Given the number of elements that don't assemble into chain molecules, or liquids that

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 9:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 3:13 PM, LizR wrote: Indeed it would be very strange, perhaps verging on miraculous. I believe just the nuclear resonance discovered by Hoyle alone is already incredibly fine tuned, after which we have the

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread meekerdb
On 1/17/2014 8:17 PM, LizR wrote: OK, I withdraw the incredibly. I'm just going by what folks tell me on this, plus no doubt a natural tendency towards hyperbole. So we still have the properties of water and carbon and god knows what else. Given the number of elements that don't assemble

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
On 18 January 2014 19:02, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 8:17 PM, LizR wrote: OK, I withdraw the incredibly. I'm just going by what folks tell me on this, plus no doubt a natural tendency towards hyperbole. So we still have the properties of water and carbon and god

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread meekerdb
On 1/17/2014 8:35 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 9:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 3:13 PM, LizR wrote: Indeed it would be very strange, perhaps verging on miraculous. I believe just the nuclear resonance

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread LizR
Hence my suggestion that we just need to sample a lot of universes... :-) On 18 January 2014 19:17, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 8:35 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 9:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 3:13 PM, LizR wrote:

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-17 Thread Jason Resch
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:17 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 8:35 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 9:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/17/2014 3:13 PM, LizR wrote: Indeed it would be very strange, perhaps verging on miraculous. I

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:40, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And the answer is yes, he would know that, but not immediately. So it would not change the indeterminacy, as he will not immediately see that he is in a simulation, but, unless you intervene repeatedly

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:44, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:39, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 10:29, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote: condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1... Teehee. Not a condescending dismissal in anyone

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There is still FPI going on in the rogue simulation - the one where Glak emerges from an alternative-physics, as there are infinite continuations from Glak's state(s)

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:49, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 10:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: This should be clearer, hopefully, when I translate probability in arithmetic. If Glak is Löbian, then it has the same physics than us What does same mean here. Same coupling constants?...same number

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There is still FPI going on in the rogue simulation - the one where Glak emerges from an alternative-physics, as there are

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/16 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There is still FPI going on in the rogue simulation - the one where Glak

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 21:34, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:40, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And the answer is yes, he would know that, but not immediately. So it would not change the indeterminacy, as he will not immediately see

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 04:25, freqflyer07281972 wrote: On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 4:54:09 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote: Man that’s uncool. You may think he is an idiot, but to go troll the internet and then publish on this list his very personal life is crossing a line. I think you owe

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 10:28, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There is still FPI going on in the rogue simulation - the one where

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: The simplest and by far most likely answer is to assume that the world we appear to live in IS the real actual world Maybe. But it could be argued that if the ability to perform vast calculations is possible (and I can't

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:40, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And the answer is yes, he would know that, but not immediately. So it would not change the indeterminacy, as he will not immediately see that he is in a

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 12:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:44, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:39, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 10:29, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com mailto:terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote: condescending

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 16 Jan 2014, at 10:28, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There is still FPI going on

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/16 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 16 Jan 2014, at 10:28, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 9:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Perhaps, perhaps not. We have to compare the mass of the electron we measure in our neighborhood, with the mass of the electron in the comp physics. If the comp physics is agnostic on the electron mass, it means that the mass of electron is not a

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 17 January 2014 10:01, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: You can disagree, but it's a fact, we can make video game, so we can make any rules we want in the created virtual worlds, nothing prevent us to do so. Yes, I made up a game in which 17 is an even number and an infinite

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/16 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 17 January 2014 10:01, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: You can disagree, but it's a fact, we can make video game, so we can make any rules we want in the created virtual worlds, nothing prevent us to do so. Yes, I made up a game in which 17 is

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Jan 2014, at 18:53, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Liz, See my response to Brent on consciousness of an hour ago. It answers this question... Actually to answer your question properly you have to define 'person', what you mean by an 'AI' and what you mean by a 'simulation'. All those

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Jan 2014, at 21:22, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: John, The simplest and by far most likely answer is to assume that the world we appear to live in IS the real actual world (though heavily filtered through our own

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:39, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 10:29, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote: condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1... Teehee. Not a condescending dismissal in anyone else's mind, however, just more hand-waving nonsense that only Edgar could possibly think

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:29, Terren Suydam wrote: condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1... On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:27 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 January 2014 06:53, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Liz, See my response to Brent on consciousness of an hour ago. It answers

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 15 January 2014 21:22, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 21:22, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: John, The simplest and by far most likely answer is to assume that the world we appear to live in IS the

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 02:37, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Liz, If your question is whether or not it is possible to determine whether we are living in a matrix type simulation I believe it is because we would not just be living in the simulation but in the entire reality in which the simulation is

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 15 January 2014 21:34, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:29, Terren Suydam wrote: condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1... On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:27 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 January 2014 06:53, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Liz,

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 15 January 2014 21:29, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:39, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 10:29, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote: condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1... Teehee. Not a condescending *dismissal* in anyone else's mind, however,

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 02:53, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Liz, It's a lot less of hunch than the simulation theory in the first place. The simulation exists, like prime number exists. Selecting one computation cannot work, by the UDA, so the only way to avoid the measure problem on all

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 02:59, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Liz, Are you describing YOUR inability to understand MY satirical comment perchance? I even included a smiley to indicate that which you didn't... Lighten up and smile! :-) You cannot insult someone and ask him or her to smile. Bruno

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 15 January 2014 21:49, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 02:59, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Liz, Are you describing YOUR inability to understand MY satirical comment perchance? I even included a smiley to indicate that which you didn't... Lighten up and smile! :-)

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 09:44, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 21:34, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:29, Terren Suydam wrote: condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1... On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:27 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 January 2014 06:53, Edgar L.

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 09:48, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 02:53, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Liz, It's a lot less of hunch than the simulation theory in the first place. The simulation exists, like prime number exists. Selecting one computation cannot work, by the UDA, so the only

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 10:39, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 21:49, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 02:59, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Liz, Are you describing YOUR inability to understand MY satirical comment perchance? I even included a smiley to indicate that which you

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 09:45, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 21:29, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:39, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 10:29, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote: condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1... Teehee. Not a condescending

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Freq, So now you are on my case because my previous girlfriend died of cancer a few years back?! Edgar On Tuesday, January 14, 2014 9:26:02 PM UTC-5, freqflyer07281972 wrote: *SEEKING A COMPATIBLE WOMAN OR LONG TERM COMPANION:* I'm seeking a compatible, loyal, caring, natural,

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 3:26 AM, freqflyer07281972 thismindisbud...@gmail.com wrote: SEEKING A COMPATIBLE WOMAN OR LONG TERM COMPANION: I'm seeking a compatible, loyal, caring, natural, affectionate, non-feminist woman who believes that male female relationships should not be adversarial or

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Telmo, Thanks Telmo! Freq's comment was especially painful as my previous lady companion died of cancer a few years ago which is why I was looking again. Edgar On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 7:17:44 AM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 3:26 AM, freqflyer07281972

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 3:26 AM, freqflyer07281972 thismindisbud...@gmail.com wrote: SEEKING A COMPATIBLE WOMAN OR LONG TERM COMPANION: I'm seeking a compatible, loyal, caring, natural, affectionate, non-feminist

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread spudboy100
...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Jan 15, 2014 9:45 am Subject: Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 3:26 AM, freqflyer07281972 thismindisbud

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Edgar L. Owen
PGC, No, you have your facts wrong. I did NOT start this. My post you quoted was in response to Freq's previous comment that Also, I am really starting to understand why you have difficulty with finding a life partner. Just check your own post. You will see that comment by Freq down below My

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Jason Resch
On Jan 15, 2014, at 2:34 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:29, Terren Suydam wrote: condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1... On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:27 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 January 2014 06:53, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote:

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/15 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Jan 15, 2014, at 2:34 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:29, Terren Suydam wrote: condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1... On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:27 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Terren Suydam
Bruno, On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 5:29 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The simulation is locally finite, and the comp-physics is necessarily infinite (it emerges from the 1p indeterminacy on the whole UD*), so, soon or later, he will bet that he is in a simulation (or that comp is

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 4:46 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: PGC, No, you have your facts wrong. I did NOT start this. My post you quoted was in response to Freq's previous comment that Also, I am really starting to understand why you have difficulty with finding a life partner.

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 3:26 AM, freqflyer07281972 thismindisbud...@gmail.com wrote: SEEKING A COMPATIBLE WOMAN OR LONG

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 16:43, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 15, 2014, at 2:34 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:29, Terren Suydam wrote: condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1... On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:27 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 January 2014

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 17:50, Terren Suydam wrote: Bruno, On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 5:29 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The simulation is locally finite, and the comp-physics is necessarily infinite (it emerges from the 1p indeterminacy on the whole UD*), so, soon or later, he

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Jason Resch
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 12:50 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Assuming this is genuine (and the phraseology certainly sounds like our Mr Owen) ... all I can say is, anyone who asks for a non-feminist in the 21st century deserves to be shot. I am not sure whether or not the word is defined

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And the answer is yes, he would know that, but not immediately. So it would not change the indeterminacy, as he will not immediately see that he is in a simulation, but, unless you intervene repeatedly on the simulation, or unless you manipulate

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 12:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:39, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 10:29, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com mailto:terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote: condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1... Teehee. Not a condescending /*dismissal*/ in anyone else's

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Terren Suydam
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There is still FPI going on in the rogue simulation - the one where Glak emerges from an alternative-physics, as there are infinite continuations from Glak's state(s) in the alternative physics. You cannot change the

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 4:17 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 3:26 AM, freqflyer07281972 thismindisbud...@gmail.com wrote: SEEKING A COMPATIBLE WOMAN OR LONG TERM COMPANION: I'm seeking a compatible, loyal, caring, natural, affectionate, non-feminist woman who believes that male female

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 10:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: This should be clearer, hopefully, when I translate probability in arithmetic. If Glak is Löbian, then it has the same physics than us What does same mean here. Same coupling constants?...same number of Higgs bosons?...same spacetime dimensions?

RE: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Chris de Morsella
: Consciousness as a State of Matter SEEKING A COMPATIBLE WOMAN OR LONG TERM COMPANION: I'm seeking a compatible, loyal, caring, natural, affectionate, non-feminist woman who believes that male female relationships should not be adversarial or selfish, but based on mutual love, trust and benefit

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 05:57, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: From what I could observe, Edgar came here with his ideas (which I mostly don't agree with, but that's fine). He was never the one initiating personal attacks. Also he's using his real name, while being attacked by someone

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 08:19, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 12:50 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Assuming this is genuine (and the phraseology certainly sounds like our Mr Owen) ... all I can say is, anyone who asks for a non-feminist in the 21st century

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 08:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And the answer is yes, he would know that, but not immediately. So it would not change the indeterminacy, as he will not immediately see that he is in a simulation, but, unless you

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Edgar L. Owen
javascript:] *On Behalf Of * freqflyer07281972 *Sent:* Tuesday, January 14, 2014 6:26 PM *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Subject:* Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter *SEEKING A COMPATIBLE WOMAN OR LONG TERM COMPANION:* I'm seeking a compatible, loyal, caring, natural

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 2:14 PM, LizR wrote: Anyway. That said, I think that anyone who asks /specifically/ for a non-feminist must be wanting someone who will accept a female role from long ago and far away - they're looking for someone docile and obedient, with non-threatening hair. On the other hand,

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Liz, I've never called anyone on this list stupid, not a single time. You claim I have spent the last week or so calling everyone stupid. That is simply not true so one wonders why you would say it? Edgar On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 4:57:53 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote: On 16 January 2014

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, Correct. I actually spell it out and make it pretty clear in the advert what I mean by a non-feminist. Edgar On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 5:45:52 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/15/2014 2:14 PM, LizR wrote: Anyway. That said, I think that anyone who asks *specifically* for a

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 15 January 2014 23:55, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 10:39, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 21:49, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 02:59, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Liz, Are you describing YOUR inability to understand MY satirical comment

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread Jason Resch
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 2:02 PM, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There is still FPI going on in the rogue simulation - the one where Glak emerges from an alternative-physics, as there are infinite

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 11:48, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Liz, I've never called anyone on this list stupid, not a single time. You claim I have spent the last week or so calling everyone stupid. That is simply not true so one wonders why you would say it? Because you keep implying

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 11:45, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 2:14 PM, LizR wrote: Anyway. That said, I think that anyone who asks *specifically* for a non-feminist must be wanting someone who will accept a female role from long ago and far away - they're looking for someone

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread LizR
To take one example at random, when Stephen suggested that your theory had similarities with ideal monism, you said: Trying to shoehorn it won't help you understand it. This implies that Stephen's attempt to understand your theory was shoehorning and that he wasn't able to understand it, both of

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-15 Thread freqflyer07281972
On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 4:54:09 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote: Man that’s uncool. You may think he is an idiot, but to go troll the internet and then publish on this list his very personal life is crossing a line. I think you owe the man an apology and need to look into your own

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Jan 2014, at 18:32, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Terren, Don't tell me what's in my theory. There are NO infinity of logical realities being computed. There is no Platonia You seem to be referencing Bruno's comp. There is NO 'Platonia' in my theory. Comp needs only the arithmetical

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-14 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/14 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net Liz, That's one possibility but more likely is that you just don't take the time to read and consider what I've actually written in your over eagerness to criticize... The more likely is that you just talking garbage since the beginning... your

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-14 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Jason, There is only one reality because I define reality as all that exists. It is conceivable there is more than one physical universe in that reality but until you give me some evidence of it I'm not going to waste my time thinking about it. As I've pointed out most of the reasons

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-14 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, Glad you aren't criticizing my theory! Thanks! How could I have gotten that idea I wonder? :-) There is only one ACTUAL world or reality which includes everything that exists by definition. There are NO POSSIBLE worlds except the one that is ACTUAL. It's existence falsifies all others.

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-14 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, Again, you are making the mistake of thinking consciousness is some single state that things either have or don't have. There is actually a continuous non-linear spectrum from a thermostat through a mars rover through all biological organisms to a human and possibly beyond. Each of

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-14 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Liz, See my response to Brent on consciousness of an hour ago. It answers this question... Actually to answer your question properly you have to define 'person', what you mean by an 'AI' and what you mean by a 'simulation'. In the details of those definitions will be your answer... It's

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-14 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jason, There is only one reality because I define reality as all that exists. That's fine and I agree with it, but I asked how you know there is only one physical universe. It is conceivable there is more than one

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-14 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 9:47 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: I never said there is only one POSSIBLE world, I clearly stated there is only one ACTUAL world and many actual simulations of that world in the minds of biological organisms. OK, but is the world you and I are familiar

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-14 Thread meekerdb
On 1/14/2014 9:10 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, Glad you aren't criticizing my theory! Thanks! How could I have gotten that idea I wonder? :-) There is only one ACTUAL world or reality which includes everything that exists by definition. There are NO POSSIBLE worlds except the one that is

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-14 Thread meekerdb
On 1/14/2014 9:32 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, Again, you are making the mistake of thinking consciousness is some single state that things either have or don't have. There is actually a continuous non-linear spectrum from a thermostat through a mars rover through all biological organisms

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-14 Thread Edgar L. Owen
John, The simplest and by far most likely answer is to assume that the world we appear to live in IS the real actual world (though heavily filtered through our own internal simulation as I've explained before). To assume otherwise in the absence of any actual evidence is a waste of time. We

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