Re: Consciousness is information?

2010-01-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
Just to be fair with Torgny, it seems he changed his mind on ultrafinitism: On 10 May 2009, at 19:05, Torgny Tholerus wrote: 2009/5/8 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: I was an ultrafinitist before, but I have changed my mind. Now I accept that you can say that the natural numbers are

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-06-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
Many people believe something like objectivity = serious, truth, rationality etc. subjectivity = not serious, childish, unscientific, irrational when truth is (if I can say, to be short): subjectivity = what you cannot doubt, what you know, truth objectivity = hypothetical, theoretical, but

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-06-13 Thread David Nyman
On Apr 24, 4:39 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Any content of consciousness can be an illusion. Consciousness itself cannot, because without consciousness there is no more illusion at all. - just catching up with the thread, but I feel compelled to comment that this is beautifully

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-06-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Jesse, On 01 May 2009, at 19:36, Jesse Mazer wrote: I found a paper on the Mandelbrot set and computability, I understand very little but maybe Bruno would be able to follow it: http://arxiv.org/abs/cs.CC/0604003 The same author has a shorter outline or slides for a presentation

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-06-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Jun 2009, at 20:11, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do you believe if we create a computer in this physical universe that it could be made conscious, But a computer is never conscious, nor is a brain. Only a person is

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-06-04 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:29 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 03 Jun 2009, at 20:11, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do you believe if we create a computer in this physical universe that it could be made conscious,

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-06-03 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do you believe if we create a computer in this physical universe that it could be made conscious, But a computer is never conscious, nor is a brain. Only a person is conscious, and a computer or a brain can only make it

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-06-02 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: BUT, if there is significant suffering likely in the worlds where I lose, I might very well focus making a choice that will minimize that suffering. In which case I will generally not base much of my decision on the

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-06-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Jun 2009, at 18:46, Kelly Harmon wrote: First, in the multiplication experience, the question of your choice is not addressed, nor needed. The question is really: what will happen to you. You give the right answer above. You're saying that there are no low probability worlds?

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 May 2009, at 18:53, Kelly Harmon wrote: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: What do you thing is the more probable events that you will live which one is the more probable? What is your most rational choice among So if nothing is riding on

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Marty, On 29 May 2009, at 02:32, m.a. wrote: Bruno, Thank you for this detailed reply. May I pose one follow- up question? Is the universal dovetailer some sort of God/Machine that is mathematical like the rest of creation but separate from it and of a higher order of

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-29 Thread John Mikes
a.* ** ** ** ** ** ** - Original Message - From: Kelly Harmon harmon...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:02 AM Subject: Re: Consciousness is information? On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-29 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: What do you thing is the more probable events that you will live which one is the more probable? What is your most rational choice among So if nothing is riding on the outcome of my choice, then it seems rational to

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-29 Thread m.a.
Subject: Re: Consciousness is information? Hi Marty, On 29 May 2009, at 02:32, m.a. wrote: Bruno, Thank you for this detailed reply. May I pose one follow-up question? Is the universal dovetailer some sort of God/Machine that is mathematical like the rest of creation

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-28 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Since you told me that you accept comp, after all, and do no more oppose it to your view, I think we agree, at least on many things. Indeed you agree with the hypothesis, and your philosophy appears to be a consequence

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-28 Thread Kim Jones
On 28/05/2009, at 12:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Also, I will from now on, abandon the term machine for the term number. Relatively to a fixed chosen universal machine, like Robinson arithmetic, such an identification can be done precisely. I will come back on this to my explanation to Kim,

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-28 Thread m.a.
? marty a. - Original Message - From: Kelly Harmon harmon...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:02 AM Subject: Re: Consciousness is information? On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Bruno Marchal marc

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 May 2009, at 09:18, Kim Jones wrote: Am still interested and possessed of infinite patience Nice! Soon ! (in the relative platonist way ... :) Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 May 2009, at 09:02, Kelly Harmon wrote: On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Since you told me that you accept comp, after all, and do no more oppose it to your view, I think we agree, at least on many things. Indeed you agree with the

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
Subject: Re: Consciousness is information? On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Since you told me that you accept comp, after all, and do no more oppose it to your view, I think we agree, at least on many things. Indeed you agree with the hypothesis

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-28 Thread m.a.
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: Consciousness is information? Marty, On 28 May 2009, at 15:41, m.a. wrote: If there was never a physical world to which living creatures adapted after millions of years

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-27 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Actually I still have no clue of what you mean by information. Well, I don't think I can say it much better than I did before: In my view, there are ungrounded abstract symbols that acquire meaning via constraints

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
Kelly, Since you told me that you accept comp, after all, and do no more oppose it to your view, I think we agree, at least on many things. Indeed you agree with the hypothesis, and your philosophy appears to be a consequence of the hypothesis. That is all my work is about. Indeed I show

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-24 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly wrote: On May 23, 12:54 pm, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: Either of these ideas is definite enough that they could actually be implemented (in contrast to many philosophical ideas about consciousness). Once you had implemented the ideas, how would you then

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-24 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 1:54 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: May be you could study the UDA, and directly tell me at which step your theory departs from the comp hyp. Okay, I read over your SANE2004 paper again. From step 1 of UDA: The scanned (read) information is send by

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 May 2009, at 06:39, Brent Meeker wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 May 2009, at 18:25, Jason Resch wrote: ... Do you believe if we create a computer in this physical universe that it could be made conscious, But a computer is never conscious, nor is a brain. Only a person is

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-23 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 May 2009, at 06:39, Brent Meeker wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 May 2009, at 18:25, Jason Resch wrote: ... Do you believe if we create a computer in this physical universe that it could be made conscious, But a computer is never

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-23 Thread Kelly Harmon
Okay, below are three passages that I think give a good sense of what I mean by information when I say that consciousness is information. The first is from David Chalmers' Facing up to the Problem of Consciousness. The second is from the SEP article on Semantic Conceptions of Information, and

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 May 2009, at 09:08, Brent Meeker wrote: But why? Why not RA without induction? Is it necessary that there be infinite schema? Since you phrase your answer as I am willing... is it a matter of your intuition or is it a matter of degree of consciousness. OK. I could have taken

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-23 Thread John Mikes
I missed the meaning of *'conscious'* as applied in this discussion. *If we accept* that it means 'responding to information' ( used in the wides sense: in *responding* there is an *absorption* of the result of an observer moment and *completenig relations thereof* and te *information* as the

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 May 2009, at 09:35, Kelly Harmon wrote: Okay, below are three passages that I think give a good sense of what I mean by information when I say that consciousness is information. The first is from David Chalmers' Facing up to the Problem of Consciousness. The second is from the SEP

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-23 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 May 2009, at 09:08, Brent Meeker wrote: But why? Why not RA without induction? Is it necessary that there be infinite schema? Since you phrase your answer as I am willing... is it a matter of your intuition or is it a matter of degree of consciousness.

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 May 2009, at 18:54, Brent Meeker wrote: I think it is related. I'm just trying to figure out the implications of your theory for the problem of creating artificial, conscious intelligences. What I gather from the above is that you think there are degrees of consciousness marked

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-23 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: To repeat my earlier Chalmers quote, Experience is information from the inside; physics is information from the outside. It is this subjective experience of information that provides meaning to the otherwise

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-23 Thread Kelly
On May 23, 12:54 pm, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: Either of these ideas is definite enough that they could actually be implemented (in contrast to many philosophical ideas about consciousness). Once you had implemented the ideas, how would you then know whether consciousness

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
OK. So, now, Kelly, just to understand what you mean by your theory, I have to ask you what your theory predicts in case of self- multiplication. You have to see that, personally, I don't have a theory other than the assumption that the brain is emulable by a Turing machine, and by brain

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 21 May 2009, at 12:28, Alberto G.Corona wrote: Hi Bruno. Thanks for the link. As an physicist and computer researcher I have knowledge of some of the fields involved in UDA, but at the first sight I fear that I will have a hard time understanding it. We can do the reasoning step by

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-22 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Indeed assuming comp I support Arithmetic - Mind - Matter I could almost define mind by intensional arithmetic: the numbers when studied by the numbers. This does not work because I have to say: the numbers as studied

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 22 May 2009, at 18:25, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Indeed assuming comp I support Arithmetic - Mind - Matter I could almost define mind by intensional arithmetic: the numbers when studied by the numbers. This does

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-22 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 May 2009, at 18:25, Jason Resch wrote: ... Do you believe if we create a computer in this physical universe that it could be made conscious, But a computer is never conscious, nor is a brain. Only a person is conscious, and a computer or a brain can

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-21 Thread Alberto G.Corona
Hi Bruno. Thanks for the link. As an physicist and computer researcher I have knowledge of some of the fields involved in UDA, but at the first sight I fear that I will have a hard time understanding it. and my subjective experience is  the most objective fact that I can reach. t I see

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-20 Thread Alberto G.Corona
Hi Bruno On May 19, 7:37 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: ... UDA is an argument showing that the current   paradigmatic chain MATTER = CONSCIOUSNESS = NUMBER is reversed: with   comp I can explain too you in details (it is long) that the chain   should be NUMBER =

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-20 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Alberto, On 20 May 2009, at 13:08, Alberto G.Corona wrote: On May 19, 7:37 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: ... UDA is an argument showing that the current paradigmatic chain MATTER = CONSCIOUSNESS = NUMBER is reversed: with comp I can explain too you in details (it is

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-19 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 4:22 PM, George Levy gl...@quantics.net wrote: Kelly Harmon wrote: What if you used a lookup table for only a single neuron in a computer simulation of a brain? Hi Kelly Zombie arguments involving look up tables are faulty because look up tables are not closed

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-19 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 12:30 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On the contrary, I think it does.  First, I think Chalmers idea that vitalists recognized that all that needed explaining was structure and function is revisionist history.  They were looking for the animating

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-19 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 6:36 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I agree with your critic of consciousness = information. This is not even wrong, Ouch! Et tu, Bruno??? and Kelly should define what he means by information so that we could see what he really means. Okay, okay! I

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-19 Thread Alberto G.Corona
That is also my case. I wonder how the materialist hypothesis has advanced in a plausible explanation of consciousness, and I think that this is the right path, and I follow it. But at the deep level, my subjective experience tells me that I must remain dualist. I think however that for

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-19 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly Harmon wrote: ... So I think the possibility (conceivability?) of conscious computer simulations is what throws a kink into this line of thought. No, that's why I wrote ...relative to an environment. In Moravec's thought experiment the consciousness is relative to simulation.

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 19 May 2009, at 10:13, Kelly Harmon wrote: On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 6:36 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I agree with your critic of consciousness = information. This is not even wrong, Ouch! Et tu, Bruno??? Apology. I was a bit rude. and Kelly should define

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Alberto, On 19 May 2009, at 11:37, Alberto G.Corona wrote: That is also my case. I wonder how the materialist hypothesis has advanced in a plausible explanation of consciousness, and I think that this is the right path, and I follow it. But at the deep level, my subjective experience

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
Note also that, by being universal machine, our look-up table are infinite. Bruno Le 18-mai-09, à 03:11, Kelly Harmon a écrit : On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@hotmail.com wrote: I don't have a problem with the idea that a giant lookup table is just a sort of

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
Le 17-mai-09, à 12:43, Alberto G.Corona a écrit : The hard problem may be unsolvable, but I think it would be much more unsolvable if we don´t fix the easy problem, isn´t? I think that the hard problem is more easy to solve than the easy problem. Indeed it is a theorem in computer science

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-18 Thread George Levy
Kelly Harmon wrote: What if you used a lookup table for only a single neuron in a computer simulation of a brain? Hi Kelly Zombie arguments involving look up tables are faulty because look up tables are not closed systems. They require someone to fill them up. To resolve these arguments

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-17 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly Harmon wrote: I think your discussing the functional aspects of consciousness. AKA, the easy problems of consciousness. The question of how human behavior is produced. My question was what is the source of phenomenal consciousness. What is the absolute minimum requirement which

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-17 Thread Alberto G.Corona
The hard problem may be unsolvable, but I think it would be much more unsolvable if we don´t fix the easy problem, isn´t? With a clear idea of the easy problem it is possible to infer something about the hard problem: For example, the latter is a product of the former, because we perceive things

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-17 Thread John Mikes
Let me please insert my remarks into this remarkable chain of thoughts below (my inserts in bold) John M On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 2:03 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote: Kelly Harmon wrote: I think your discussing the functional aspects of consciousness. AKA, the easy problems

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-17 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 2:03 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: Do you suppose that something could behave just as humans do yet not be conscious, i.e. could there be a philosophical zombie? I think that somewhere there would have to be a conscious experience associated with the

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-17 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Alberto G.Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: Therefore I think that I answer your question: it´s not only information; It´s about a certain kind of information and their own processor. The exact nature of this processor that permits qualia is not known; that’s

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-17 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 8:07 AM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: A fitting computer simulation would include ALL aspects involved - call it mind AND body, 'physically' observable 'activity' and 'consciousness as cause' -- but alas, no such thing so far. Our embryonic machine with its

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-17 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@hotmail.com wrote: I don't have a problem with the idea that a giant lookup table is just a sort of zombie, since after all the way you'd create a lookup table for a given algorithmic mind would be to run a huge series of actual

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-17 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly Harmon wrote: On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 2:03 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: Do you suppose that something could behave just as humans do yet not be conscious, i.e. could there be a philosophical zombie? I think that somewhere there would have to be a conscious

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-17 Thread Kelly Harmon
On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: Generally I don't think that what we experience is necessarily caused by physical systems.  I think that sometimes physical systems assume configurations that shadow, or represent, our conscious experience. But they

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-17 Thread Brent Meeker
Kelly Harmon wrote: On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: Generally I don't think that what we experience is necessarily caused by physical systems. I think that sometimes physical systems assume configurations that shadow, or represent, our

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-16 Thread Alberto G.Corona
No. Consciousness is not information. It is an additional process that handles its own generated information. I you don´t recognize the driving mechanism towards order in the universe, you will be running on empty. This driving mechanism is natural selection. Things gets selected, replicated and

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-16 Thread Kelly Harmon
I think your discussing the functional aspects of consciousness. AKA, the easy problems of consciousness. The question of how human behavior is produced. My question was what is the source of phenomenal consciousness. What is the absolute minimum requirement which must be met in order for

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Jesse, On 15 May 2009, at 06:32, Jesse Mazer wrote: Maudlin shows that you can reduce almost arbitrarily the amount of physical activity for running any computation, and keep their computational genuineness through the use of inert material. So the isomorphism you introduce vanish

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-14 Thread John Mikes
Stathis, I agree halfway with you and expected something (maybe more). Do you mean the others are zombies? not ME (you, etc. 1st pers). I take it one step further, the fun (I agree) includes a satisfaction that here is a bunch of really smart guys and I can tell them something in their profession

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-14 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/5/15 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com: Stathis, I agree halfway with you and expected something (maybe more). Do you mean the others are zombies? not ME (you, etc. 1st pers). I don't think others are zombies, but it is interesting nevertheless to consider the possibility. I take it one

RE: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-14 Thread Jesse Mazer
Hi Bruno, I meant to reply to this earlier: From: marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Consciousness is information? Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 14:45:13 +0200 On 30 Apr 2009, at 18:29, Jesse Mazer wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Apr 2009, at 23:30, Jesse Mazer

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-13 Thread John Mikes
Jason, thanks for your reply. Those BIG questions? IMO: typical SO WHAT ones. AND if we know? There is one (practical?) point though: knowing some 'right(?)' answer will reduce our danger to succumb to underhanded assumptions that mostly involve pressure to do what otherwise we wouldn't do. (Like

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
John, On 12 May 2009, at 22:42, John Mikes wrote: (because she believes in her love that I am into all that, - understanding): What do you guys hope to achieve by all this speculation? I think there is a difference between speculating on the truth on some theories, and trying just to

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/5/13 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com: Bruno, merci pour le nom Jean Cocteau. J'ai voulu montrer que je semble vivant. I told my young bride of 61 years (originally economist, but follows all the plaisantries I speculate on) about the assumptions you guys speculate on and connect to

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Torgny, I come from Stockholm, Sweden. I was constructed by my parents. In reality I think that all humans are zombies, but because I am a polite person, I do not tell the other zombies that they are zombies. I do not want to hurt the other zombies by telling them the truth. I

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi John, On 11 May 2009, at 22:49, John Mikes wrote: who was that French poet who made puns after death? ... A french poet said, after he died (!) : friends, pretend only to cry because poet pretends only to dye. (Faites semblant de pleurer mes amis puisque les poètes font semblant

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-12 Thread Torgny Tholerus
Bruno Marchal skrev: On 08 May 2009, at 19:15, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: On 07 May 2009, at 18:29, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Yes it is right. There is no infinity of natural numbers. But the natural numbers are UNLIMITED, you can construct as many natural

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-12 Thread John Mikes
Bruno, merci pour le nom Jean Cocteau. J'ai voulu montrer que je semble vivant. I told my young bride of 61 years (originally economist, but follows all the plaisantries I speculate on) about the assumptions you guys speculate on and connect to assumptions of assumptions, Torgny the zombie,

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-12 Thread Jason Resch
John, Great question I am glad you asked it. I think I was driven to this list because of big questions, especially those which most people seem to believe are unanswerable. Questions such as: Where did this universe come from? Why are we here and why am I me? Is there a God? What is

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-11 Thread John Mikes
Bruno, who was that French poet who made puns after death? JohnM On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 May 2009, at 19:15, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: On 07 May 2009, at 18:29, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev:

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-10 Thread Torgny Tholerus
Quentin Anciaux skrev: Hi, 2009/5/8 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: I was an ultrafinitist before, but I have changed my mind. Now I accept that you can say that the natural numbers are unlimited. I only deny actual infinities. The set of all natural numbers are always finite, but

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 May 2009, at 19:15, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: On 07 May 2009, at 18:29, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: you are human, all right? I look exactly as a human. When you look at me, you will not be able to know if I am a human or a zombie, because I

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 May 2009, at 18:29, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: On 06 May 2009, at 11:35, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: Someone unconscious cannot doubt either ... (A zombie can only fake doubts) Yes, you are right. I can only fake doubts... I suspect you

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-08 Thread Torgny Tholerus
Bruno Marchal skrev: On 07 May 2009, at 18:29, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: you are human, all right? I look exactly as a human. When you look at me, you will not be able to know if I am a human or a zombie, because I behave exacly like a human.

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-08 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, 2009/5/8 Torgny Tholerus tor...@dsv.su.se: Bruno Marchal skrev: On 07 May 2009, at 18:29, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: you are human, all right? I look exactly as a human.  When you look at me, you will not be able to know if I am a human or a zombie, because I

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 May 2009, at 11:35, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: Something conscious cannot doubt about the existence of its consciousness, I think, although it can doubt everything else it can be conscious *about*. It is the unprovable (but coverable) fixed point of Descartes

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-07 Thread Torgny Tholerus
Bruno Marchal skrev: On 06 May 2009, at 11:35, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: Someone unconscious cannot doubt either ... (A zombie can only fake doubts) Yes, you are right. I can only fake doubts... I suspect you are faking faking doubts, but of

RE: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-07 Thread m.a.
: Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:10 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Consciousness is information? On 06 May 2009, at 11:35, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: Something conscious cannot doubt about the existence of its consciousness, I think, although it can doubt

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-06 Thread Torgny Tholerus
Bruno Marchal skrev: Something conscious cannot doubt about the existence of its consciousness, I think, although it can doubt everything else it can be conscious *about*. It is the unprovable (but coverable) fixed point of Descartes systematic doubting procedure (this fit well with the

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 04 May 2009, at 13:31, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/5/4 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: ... It seems to me that we agree that physical supervenience leads to many absurdities. Is your argument purely academical, or do you think it can be used to prevent the conclusion that

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-05 Thread Stephen Paul King
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 1:33 PM Subject: Re: Consciousness is information? snip Something conscious cannot doubt about the existence of its consciousness, I think, although it can doubt everything else it can be conscious *about

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-05 Thread Jason Resch
On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: With just arithmetic, when we stop to postulate a primitive or ontological material world, all primitive ad-hocness is removed, given that the existing internal interpretations are all determined, with their relative

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 May 2009, at 22:31, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: With just arithmetic, when we stop to postulate a primitive or ontological material world, all primitive ad-hocness is removed, given that the existing internal

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
Subject: Re: Consciousness is information? snip Something conscious cannot doubt about the existence of its consciousness, I think, although it can doubt everything else it can be conscious *about*. It is the unprovable (but coverable) fixed point of Descartes systematic doubting

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-04 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/5/4 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: in the same way a message is obscured if encoded with a one-time pad that is subsequently destroyed and forgotten. In fact, even with the store-bought computer the computation is obscured if there are no intelligent beings around who can understand

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 May 2009, at 17:09, John Mikes wrote: I would like to go along with Maudlin's point emphasized in Bruno's text below, adding that causal structure is restricted to the limited model of which we CAN choose likely 'causes' within our perceived reality, while the unlimited

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-03 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/5/3 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: I think that if you take a real forest with birds, here and there, you can interpret some behavior as NAND or NOR, but you will not succeed ever in finding the computation of factorial(5). But you can interpret *any* behaviour as a NAND gate, in an

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-03 Thread John Mikes
Stathis, and listers, I cannot help: I read the text. (Not always, sometimes it seems too obtuse for me even to 'read' it). The Subject? ( Consciousness = information ) what happens to that darn 'information'? Oops, 'you' are AWARE of it!? Meaning: you *DO* something with it (to be - become?

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-03 Thread John Mikes
I would like to go along with Maudlin's point emphasized in Bruno's text below, adding that causal structure is restricted to the limited model of which we *CAN *choose likely 'causes' within our perceived reality, while the unlimited possibilities include wider 'intrusions' of domains 'beyond our

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 May 2009, at 09:00, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/5/3 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: I think that if you take a real forest with birds, here and there, you can interpret some behavior as NAND or NOR, but you will not succeed ever in finding the computation of factorial(5).

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-02 Thread Kelly
On Apr 29, 2:26 am, russell standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: What extra information do you have in mind? I'd gladly update my priors with anything I can lay my hands on. So changes to neural structure and the concentrations of various chemicals within neurons and around neural synapses

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-05-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Apr 2009, at 18:29, Jesse Mazer wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Apr 2009, at 23:30, Jesse Mazer wrote: But I'm not convinced that the basic Olympia machine he describes doesn't already have a complex causal structure--the causal structure would be in the way different troughs

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