Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-19 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 18.03.2013 21:02 John Mikes said the following: friends: don't put so much brain-grease into Free Will, please! It is the religious mambo-jumbo put into the mind of the poor-believers in ancient times to make them responsible for deeds the powerful disliked - and consequently: make them

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Mar 2013, at 21:02, John Mikes wrote: friends: don't put so much brain-grease into Free Will, please! It is the religious mambo-jumbo put into the mind of the poor- believers in ancient times to make them responsible for deeds the powerful disliked - and consequently: make them

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Mar 2013, at 17:02, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:47:05 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Mar 2013, at 03:47, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, March 16, 2013 3:15:43 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Mar 2013, at 20:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: On

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-18 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, March 18, 2013 6:01:18 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Mar 2013, at 17:02, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:47:05 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Mar 2013, at 03:47, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, March 16, 2013 3:15:43 PM UTC-4, Bruno

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Mar 2013, at 18:22, meekerdb wrote: On 3/15/2013 7:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: You're walking down a road and spot a fork in the road far ahead. You know of advantages and disadvantages to both paths so you arn't sure if you will go right or left, you haven't finished the

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Mar 2013, at 18:07, meekerdb wrote: Craig thinks his theory mind is perfectly compatible with physics because he thinks physics is different from what all those stupid physicists think it is. They just don't know about his top-down physics, which no one has observed but which he

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Mar 2013, at 18:40, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: So all free will means is that sometimes we can make correct predictions about what we will do before we do it, and sometimes we cannot, and in general beforehand there

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Mar 2013, at 14:26, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, March 18, 2013 6:01:18 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Mar 2013, at 17:02, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:47:05 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Mar 2013, at 03:47, Craig Weinberg wrote: On

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-18 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, March 18, 2013 12:25:47 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Mar 2013, at 18:22, meekerdb wrote: On 3/15/2013 7:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: You're walking down a road and spot a fork in the road far ahead. You know of advantages and disadvantages to both paths so you

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-18 Thread John Mikes
friends: don't put so much brain-grease into Free Will, please! It is the religious mambo-jumbo put into the mind of the poor-believers in ancient times to make them responsible for deeds the powerful disliked - and consequently: make them punishable. Then it became a 'human treasure': *We are

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-18 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, March 18, 2013 4:02:51 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote: friends: don't put so much brain-grease into Free Will, please! It is the religious mambo-jumbo put into the mind of the poor-believers in ancient times to make them responsible for deeds the powerful disliked - and consequently:

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-18 Thread meekerdb
On 3/18/2013 1:02 PM, John Mikes wrote: friends: don't put so much brain-grease into Free Will, please! I'm not. That's why I was careful to distinguish freedom and the feeling of freedom from will and the feeling of resolve. We can have them together, but that doesn't make them into one

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-18 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, March 18, 2013 7:57:06 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 3/18/2013 1:02 PM, John Mikes wrote: friends: don't put so much brain-grease into Free Will, please! I'm not. That's why I was careful to distinguish freedom and the feeling of freedom from will and the feeling of

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Mar 2013, at 23:48, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/16/2013 3:15 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Mar 2013, at 20:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013 3:04:24 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: No, I think that you haven't understood it, That's because you are only working

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Mar 2013, at 03:47, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, March 16, 2013 3:15:43 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Mar 2013, at 20:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013 3:04:24 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: No, I think that you haven't understood it, That's because

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:47:05 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Mar 2013, at 03:47, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, March 16, 2013 3:15:43 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Mar 2013, at 20:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013 3:04:24 PM UTC-4, Terren

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-17 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: So all free will means is that sometimes we can make correct predictions about what we will do before we do it, and sometimes we cannot, and in general beforehand there is no way to tell which ones we can make good

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-17 Thread John Mikes
John: you answered YES on questions not drawing it: (see your post copied below) 1st YES: can you (yes) or can you not (yes?) see? 2nd YES: can you NOT control? Yes, I can, Yes I cannot. I was glad not to see a third YES. YES John A Mikes On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 12:22 PM, John Clark

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-16 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: The scientific conception of neurons is that *nothing* in them happens without a physical reason, ever. Which is why we those scientists have no idea what consciousness is. Physical is a meaningless term. Whatever

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-16 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:26:24 AM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: This has to be my last response on this for a while. I will just say, about consciousness arising from other premises: It is not the material itself that is important, but the organization of it. I understand that

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-16 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 , Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: If someone sells you into slavery, or brainwashes you in a cult, can you not see that you have lost something? Yes. Can you not 'control' your lungs to a greater extent than you can control your heartbeat? Yes How do

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-16 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: So all free will means is that sometimes we can make correct predictions about what we will do before we do it, Then a Turing Machine has free will because it can correctly predict that it will list all the factors of

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-16 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:22:19 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 , Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: If someone sells you into slavery, or brainwashes you in a cult, can you not see that you have lost something? Yes. Can you not 'control'

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-16 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:41:27 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: So all free will means is that sometimes we can make correct predictions about what we will do before we do it, That's what you

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Mar 2013, at 20:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013 3:04:24 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: No, I think that you haven't understood it, That's because you are only working with a straw man of me. What is it that you think that I don't understand? The legacy view is

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Mar 2013, at 21:18, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: No that is the exact opposite of the truth, we cannot follow our own self determination. If you tell me that a system is deterministic you have added exactly zero

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Mar 2013, at 22:14, Terren Suydam wrote: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Feynman A great quote that admonishes us to never trust our beliefs 100%. Very few people I have met have Feynman's humility. Wonderful (and funny) quote. Bruno

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/16/2013 3:15 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Mar 2013, at 20:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013 3:04:24 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: No, I think that you haven't understood it, That's because you are only working with a straw man of me. What is it that you think

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-16 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, March 16, 2013 3:15:43 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Mar 2013, at 20:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013 3:04:24 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: No, I think that you haven't understood it, That's because you are only working with a straw man of me.

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I didn't say that. I said When five billion of them jump to attention at once, it is **often** because of something that the person is experiencing intentionally,. Biochemistry, among other things, can cause billions

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 15, 2013 12:23:42 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: A wheel is just [...] a mouse trap does not [...] it doesn't care about [...] it doesn't matter to [...] This is really getting

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Mar 2013, at 17:10, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, March 14, 2013 10:59:14 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Mar 2013, at 05:37, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: Who are you to say that natural phenomena

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 15, 2013 6:59:42 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: I didn't say that. I said When five billion of them jump to attention at once, it is **often** because of something that the person is

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 15, 2013 9:01:24 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Mar 2013, at 17:10, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, March 14, 2013 10:59:14 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Mar 2013, at 05:37, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Craig Weinberg

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Mar 2013, at 04:19, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Because both dragons and God are well defined concepts, just concepts that don’t happen to have the attribute of existence. In contrast “free will” is not only incoherently

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread meekerdb
Craig thinks his theory mind is perfectly compatible with physics because he thinks physics is different from what all those stupid physicists think it is. They just don't know about his top-down physics, which no one has observed but which he *directly experiences* and therefore *just knows

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 15, 2013 1:07:19 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: Craig thinks his theory mind is perfectly compatible with physics because he thinks physics is different from what all those stupid physicists think it is. They just don't know about his top-down physics, which no one has

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread meekerdb
On 3/15/2013 7:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: You're walking down a road and spot a fork in the road far ahead. You know of advantages and disadvantages to both paths so you arn't sure if you will go right or left, you haven't finished the calculation yet, you haven't decided yet. Once you get to

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/15/2013 1:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013 1:07:19 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: Craig thinks his theory mind is perfectly compatible with physics because he thinks physics is different from what all those stupid physicists think it is. They just don't know about

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 15, 2013 1:28:45 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 3/15/2013 1:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013 1:07:19 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: Craig thinks his theory mind is perfectly compatible with physics because he thinks physics is different

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Terren Suydam
On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: Exactly. It is interesting also in that it seems to be like one of those ambiguous images, in that as long as people are focused on one fixed idea of reality, they are honestly incapable of seeing any other, even if

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 15, 2013 1:55:26 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Exactly. It is interesting also in that it seems to be like one of those ambiguous images, in that as long as people are focused on

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Terren Suydam
No, I think that you haven't understood it, due to whatever biases have led you to invest so much in your theory - a theory which is AFAICT completely unfalsifiable and predicts nothing. On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 15, 2013 3:04:24 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: No, I think that you haven't understood it, That's because you are only working with a straw man of me. What is it that you think that I don't understand? The legacy view is that if you have many molecular systems working

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Terren Suydam
On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013 3:04:24 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: No, I think that you haven't understood it, That's because you are only working with a straw man of me. What is it that you think that I don't

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: No that is the exact opposite of the truth, we cannot follow our own self determination. If you tell me that a system is deterministic you have added exactly zero information by telling me that the system also has free

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 15, 2013 4:11:32 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013 3:04:24 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: No, I think that you haven't understood it, That's because you

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 15, 2013 4:18:58 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Bruno Marchal mar...@ulb.ac.bejavascript: wrote: No that is the exact opposite of the truth, we cannot follow our own self determination. If you tell me that a system is deterministic you

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Terren Suydam
On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013 4:11:32 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comwrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013 3:04:24 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: No, I

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 15, 2013 5:14:16 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: On Friday, March 15, 2013 4:11:32 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Craig Weinberg

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-15 Thread Terren Suydam
This has to be my last response on this for a while. I will just say, about consciousness arising from other premises: It is not the material itself that is important, but the organization of it. Consciousness *might* be what happens when certain kinds of organization arise. The human brain might

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Mar 2013, at 17:32, John Clark wrote: Because both dragons and God are well defined concepts, just concepts that don’t happen to have the attribute of existence. In contrast “free will” is not only incoherently defined it is every bit as self contradictory as the largest prime

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Mar 2013, at 05:37, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Who are you to say that natural phenomena are superfluous? Who are you to say that they aren't? The natural world is as it is. It's not my place to say the

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-14 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 14, 2013 10:59:14 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Mar 2013, at 05:37, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: Who are you to say that natural phenomena are superfluous? Who

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-14 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: The color white is not red, but since white cannot be made without using red wavelengths, then it can't be said that it is not not red either. If that's true, and you're the one who keeps telling me that the qualia color has

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-14 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 14, 2013 4:27:17 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: The color white is not red, but since white cannot be made without using red wavelengths, then it can't be said that it is not not red either. If

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-14 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:09 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: And what is determining your personal will is your brain, which follows the laws of physics. What law of physics makes my will decide to get my house painted in exactly 30 days? Does electromagnetism have some 30

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-14 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 14, 2013 6:42:10 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:09 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: And what is determining your personal will is your brain, which follows the laws of physics. What law of physics makes my will

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-14 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: What law of physics makes my will decide to get my house painted in exactly 30 days? Does electromagnetism have some 30 day cycle that is predicted by gravity for me and nobody else? What laws of physics

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-14 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Because both dragons and God are well defined concepts, just concepts that don’t happen to have the attribute of existence. In contrast “free will” is not only incoherently defined it is every bit as self contradictory

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-14 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 14, 2013 9:29:09 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: What law of physics makes my will decide to get my house painted in exactly 30 days? Does electromagnetism have some 30 day cycle

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-14 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: A wheel is just [...] a mouse trap does not [...] it doesn't care about [...] it doesn't matter to [...] This is really getting tedious. Again and again you are decreeing what is and what is not so but you're not

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:18 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: But physics does describe how high you will decide to throw the ball, since physics describes the movement of the ball and the movement of the matter in your body. If you don't accept this then you believe that your

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 10:45:10 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On 13/03/2013, at 4:53 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: We're talking about the basic principle of determinism though. We should use a basic example of it. What special ingredient does complexity add

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:56:00 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On 12/03/2013, at 12:30 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: No, it doesn't make sense to me that there would be a highly valued qualia of free will (and highly charged qualia of responsibility) if our

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:51:56 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:18 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: But physics does describe how high you will decide to throw the ball, since physics describes the movement of the ball and the

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: There is no reason to think that a deterministic universe universe had to have a beginning, or a non-deterministic one either for that matter. Then determinism, having no prior cause, violates determinism. No,

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:32:34 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: the phrase dragons exist or God exists is not gibberish just wrong, and free will is not even wrong. I'm saying that if free will doesn't exist

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:36:36 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: There is no reason to think that a deterministic universe universe had to have a beginning, or a non-deterministic one either for that

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread meekerdb
On 3/13/2013 3:51 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: The computer as a whole is not a computer at all, it is an animal, a being. In reality, it only looks like a computer on the lower levels because it is too distant from our personal experience to relate to personally. At last Craig admits that

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 2:00:27 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 3/13/2013 3:51 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: The computer as a whole is not a computer at all, it is an animal, a being. In reality, it only looks like a computer on the lower levels because it is too distant from our

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread meekerdb
On 3/13/2013 3:32 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 2:00:27 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 3/13/2013 3:51 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: The computer as a whole is not a computer at all, it is an animal, a being. In reality, it only looks like a computer

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 7:38:24 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 3/13/2013 3:32 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 2:00:27 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 3/13/2013 3:51 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: The computer as a whole is not a computer at all, it is an

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: If you can't demonstrate that one carbon atom is intelligent or conscious does that mean that trillions of them together can't be either? If your model of physics doesn't include intelligence then it can't

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 7:53:23 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: If you can't demonstrate that one carbon atom is intelligent or conscious does that mean that trillions of them together can't be

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread meekerdb
On 3/13/2013 4:47 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 7:38:24 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 3/13/2013 3:32 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 2:00:27 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 3/13/2013 3:51 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: The

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 8:59:04 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 3/13/2013 4:47 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 7:38:24 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 3/13/2013 3:32 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 2:00:27 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: So you have experiences which you can't deny, and which you can't explain as being necessary or sensible for a computer to have in any way. Why would you decide to infer that computers have superfluous phenomena

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 10:51:20 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: So you have experiences which you can't deny, and which you can't explain as being necessary or sensible for a computer to have in

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:53 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I may not be able to predict what your brain will do 30 days from now, but that does not necessarily mean your brain is not deterministic. And it certainly doesn't mean your brain is neither deterministic nor

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Who are you to say that natural phenomena are superfluous? Who are you to say that they aren't? The natural world is as it is. It's not my place to say the the Great Red Spot of Jupiter is superfluous, that the

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 14, 2013 12:13:47 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:53 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: I may not be able to predict what your brain will do 30 days from now, but that does not necessarily mean your brain is not

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread meekerdb
On 3/13/2013 10:09 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: The last one is especially cool. As you can see, the brain's behavior reflects massive, simultaneous, spontaneously formed patterns that have nothing whatsoever to do with physical laws. The same physical laws are in place whether the subject has

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 14, 2013 12:37:21 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Who are you to say that natural phenomena are superfluous? Who are you to say that they aren't? The natural world is as it is.

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 14, 2013 1:12:37 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 3/13/2013 10:09 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: The last one is especially cool. As you can see, the brain's behavior reflects massive, simultaneous, spontaneously formed patterns that have nothing whatsoever to do with physical

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: And it would be easy to show that physics was incomplete by demonstrating biological systems operate contrary to physics. If I pickup a basketball and throw it up in the air, that result is not contrary to

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Mar 2013, at 16:17, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2013 10:01:08 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Mar 2013, at 00:57, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2013 5:51:35 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 3/10/2013 1:08 PM, spudb...@aol.com wrote: Question- I also

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:56:58 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: And it would be easy to show that physics was incomplete by demonstrating biological systems operate contrary to physics. If I

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Mar 2013, at 18:48, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2013 1:27:57 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Mar 2013, at 14:30, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2013 8:43:03 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Mar 2013, at 15:14, Craig Weinberg wrote: On

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 9:20:02 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Mar 2013, at 18:48, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2013 1:27:57 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Mar 2013, at 14:30, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2013 8:43:03 AM UTC-4, Bruno

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Mar 2013, at 00:01, meekerdb wrote: On 3/11/2013 6:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Mar 2013, at 22:51, meekerdb wrote: On 3/10/2013 1:08 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Question- I also thought determinism mean't that you could predict where and when, a particle could move. But

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Mar 2013, at 14:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 9:20:02 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Mar 2013, at 18:48, Craig Weinberg wrote: What does it mean to contribute causally to a deterministic process though? What contribution does the stone make to its

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 4:08 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Question- I also thought determinism mean't that you could predict where and when, a particle could move. No, determinism and predictability are two different things. In adeterministic system its future state depends entirely on its

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: a deterministic universe always begins with a miracle that is never allowed to happen again. There is no reason to think that a deterministic universe universe had to have a beginning, or a non-deterministic one either for that

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Free will is not an illusion. It is real. Unless declared a integer. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 12:53:24 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 12 Mar 2013, at 14:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 9:20:02 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Mar 2013, at 18:48, Craig Weinberg wrote: What does it mean to contribute causally to a

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:41:05 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: a deterministic universe always begins with a miracle that is never allowed to happen again. There is no reason to think that a deterministic universe

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On 13/03/2013, at 4:53 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: We're talking about the basic principle of determinism though. We should use a basic example of it. What special ingredient does complexity add which changes the nature of determinism? One stone rolling or a trillion

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-12 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On 12/03/2013, at 12:30 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: No, it doesn't make sense to me that there would be a highly valued qualia of free will (and highly charged qualia of responsibility) if our participation did not actually contribute causally in determining the

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, March 10, 2013 11:01:34 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2013 10:39:50 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com

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