Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-11-01 Thread John Mikes
liz wrote (Oct. 24) to Craig: *What are inorganic atoms? Or rather (since I suspect all atoms are inorganic), what are organic atoms?* * * What are 'atoms'? (IMO models of our ignorance (oops: knowledge) about a portion of the unknowable infinite explained during the latest some centuries of human

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-11-01 Thread meekerdb
On 11/1/2013 1:20 PM, John Mikes wrote: liz wrote (Oct. 24) to Craig: */What are inorganic atoms? Or rather (since I suspect all atoms are inorganic), what are organic atoms?/* */ /* What are 'atoms'? (IMO models of our ignorance (oops: knowledge) about a portion of the unknowable infinite

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-11-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, November 1, 2013 4:20:45 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote: liz wrote (Oct. 24) to Craig: *What are inorganic atoms? Or rather (since I suspect all atoms are inorganic), what are organic atoms?* * * What are 'atoms'? (IMO models of our ignorance (oops: knowledge) about a portion of the

RE: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-11-01 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:45 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On Friday, November 1, 2013 4:20:45 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-11-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
: *Subject:* Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On Friday, November 1, 2013 4:20:45 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote: liz wrote (Oct. 24) to Craig: *What are inorganic atoms? Or rather (since I suspect all atoms are inorganic), what are organic atoms?* What are 'atoms'? (IMO models of our

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 10:49 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes Sent: Friday, October 25

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-31 Thread Telmo Menezes
@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 5:34 AM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2

RE: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-30 Thread Chris de Morsella
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 8:50 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 5:34 AM, Chris de

RE: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-29 Thread Chris de Morsella
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:32 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 10:49 PM, Chris de

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-28 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 4:45 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I have been under the impression that violence has been decreasing, on average, over historical time, that is to say the proportion of people dying violently and being injured by violence has tended to decrease over time. I believe

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-28 Thread LizR
I would like to see a phase transition. But the buildup to reach the tipping point would still be incremental, which is what we are (apparently) seeing at present. Hopefully this is a sigmoidal curve... [image: Inline images 1] Once some bioterrorist creates a highly infectious retrovirus that

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-28 Thread meekerdb
On 10/28/2013 3:44 PM, LizR wrote: I would like to see a phase transition. But the buildup to reach the tipping point would still be incremental, which is what we are (apparently) seeing at present. Hopefully this is a sigmoidal curve... Inline images 1 Once some bioterrorist creates a

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-28 Thread LizR
You mean too nice, I assume :) That's debatable. For example, research shows that countries with negative population growth are ones that have taken equal rights for women seriously. So being nice to the female half of the population leads to less babies being born. Also, a lot of religious

RE: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-28 Thread Chris de Morsella
But we are also perfecting our tools of violence as well. From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2013 5:07 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On 10/27/2013

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-28 Thread LizR
] *On Behalf Of *meekerdb *Sent:* Sunday, October 27, 2013 5:07 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article ** ** On 10/27/2013 2:49 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: I have some hope that violence diminishes at higher levels of intellectual

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-28 Thread meekerdb
@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *meekerdb *Sent:* Sunday, October 27, 2013 5:07 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On 10/27/2013 2:49 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: I have some hope that violence diminishes

RE: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-27 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 2:08 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On Friday, October 25, 2013 4:30:34 PM UTC-4, cdemorsella

RE: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-27 Thread Chris de Morsella
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 2:38 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 10:30 PM, Chris de

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-27 Thread Craig Weinberg
Yes… I can see how one could assume that. But not exactly what I assume though. Who knows if there is a real world? All I know (and even that is open to question) is I experience my existence as occurring within this (shared) high fidelity environment that in my experience – for me as

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-27 Thread meekerdb
On 10/27/2013 2:49 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: I have some hope that violence diminishes at higher levels of intellectual development. I share your hope, but my heart is saddened by how we do not seem to as a species be fulfilling this hope of yours, which I share in. Steven Pinker just

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-27 Thread LizR
I have been under the impression that violence has been decreasing, on average, over historical time, that is to say the proportion of people dying violently and being injured by violence has tended to decrease over time. I believe the number of wars has decreased over historical time, and

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-27 Thread meekerdb
On 10/27/2013 8:45 PM, LizR wrote: I have been under the impression that violence has been decreasing, on average, over historical time, that is to say the proportion of people dying violently and being injured by violence has tended to decrease over time. I believe the number of wars has

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Oct 2013, at 19:33, meekerdb wrote: On 10/25/2013 3:08 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Now take the game of go: human beings can still easily beat machines, even the most powerful computer currently available. Go is much more combinatorially explosive than chess, so it breaks the search tree

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:36:59 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Oct 2013, at 19:33, meekerdb wrote: On 10/25/2013 3:08 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Now take the game of go: human beings can still easily beat machines, even the most powerful computer currently available. Go is

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Oct 2013, at 10:41, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:36:59 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Oct 2013, at 19:33, meekerdb wrote: On 10/25/2013 3:08 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Now take the game of go: human beings can still easily beat machines, even the most

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-26 Thread Telmo Menezes
Couldn't there just be a routine that traps the error of believing they are intelligent? In parallel to Bruno's reply, one problem I see with naif AI is one that you may sympathise with: it is mostly built with symbols that are directly imported from humans. So if there is some

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 26, 2013 5:18:14 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Oct 2013, at 10:41, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:36:59 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Oct 2013, at 19:33, meekerdb wrote: On 10/25/2013 3:08 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Now

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 26, 2013 5:29:46 AM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: Couldn't there just be a routine that traps the error of believing they are intelligent? In parallel to Bruno's reply, one problem I see with naif AI is one that you may sympathise with: it is mostly built with

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Oct 2013, at 11:54, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, October 26, 2013 5:18:14 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Oct 2013, at 10:41, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:36:59 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Oct 2013, at 19:33, meekerdb wrote: On

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-26 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, October 26, 2013 5:29:46 AM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: Couldn't there just be a routine that traps the error of believing they are intelligent? In parallel to Bruno's reply, one problem I see

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:27:40 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Oct 2013, at 11:54, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, October 26, 2013 5:18:14 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Oct 2013, at 10:41, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:36:59 AM UTC-4,

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:34:04 AM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: On Saturday, October 26, 2013 5:29:46 AM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: Couldn't there just be a routine that traps the

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/24/2013 12:08 PM, John Mikes wrote: Craig and Telmo: Is anticipation involved at all? Deep Blue anticipated hundreds of steps in advance (and evaluated a potential outcome before accepting, or rejecting). What else

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/24/2013 12:08 PM, John Mikes wrote: Craig and Telmo: Is anticipation involved at all? Deep Blue anticipated hundreds of steps in advance

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Stephen Lin
So this remembering nowhow about science till win every battle, but religion wan the way before it even began. Wold you agree MATT DAMON? DONT BLOW THE MEET WITH MATSUI) :) On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 3:10 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Telmo

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 1:11 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:29 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:43:49

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 24, 2013 9:46:54 PM UTC-4, Liz R wrote: On 25 October 2013 14:31, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: Looking at natural presences, like atoms or galaxies, the scope of their persistence is well beyond any human relation so they do deserve the

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
:46:54 +1300 Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article From: liz...@gmail.com javascript: To: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: On 25 October 2013 14:31, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: Looking at natural presences, like atoms or galaxies, the scope

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:11:47 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On 25 October 2013 12:31, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: You could say that human chess players just take in visual data, process it in a series of biological relays, then send electrical signals

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
for virtual isolation and alienation from the Absolute. Thanks, Craig Regards From: stat...@gmail.com javascript: Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 13:11:47 +1100 Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article To: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: On 25 October 2013 12:31, Craig Weinberg whats

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 1:11 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:29 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:02 PM,

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
: stat...@gmail.com Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 13:11:47 +1100 Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article To: everyth...@googlegroups.com On 25 October 2013 12:31, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: You could say that human chess players just take in visual data, process it in a series

RE: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Chris de Morsella
@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Lin Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 3:12 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article So this remembering nowhow about science till win every battle, but religion wan the way before it even began. Wold you agree MATT DAMON? DONT BLOW

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
...@gmail.com Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 13:11:47 +1100 Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article To: everyth...@googlegroups.com On 25 October 2013 12:31, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: You could say that human chess players just take in visual data, process it in a series

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread meekerdb
On 10/25/2013 3:08 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Now take the game of go: human beings can still easily beat machines, even the most powerful computer currently available. Go is much more combinatorially explosive than chess, so it breaks the search tree approach. This is strong empirical evidence

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, October 25, 2013 1:33:02 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/25/2013 3:08 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Now take the game of go: human beings can still easily beat machines, even the most powerful computer currently available. Go is much more combinatorially explosive than chess, so it

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread meekerdb
On 10/25/2013 3:24 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: My high-level objection is very simple: chess was an excuse to pursue AI. In an era of much lower computational power, people figured that for a computer to beat a GM at chess, some meaningful AI would have to be developed along the way. I don' thing

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread meekerdb
On 10/25/2013 8:29 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Is this Stephen Lin a bot? certainly sounds machine generated Could also be a methamphetamine soaked brain as well in which random neural mental zombies become convinced they can touch the voice of god... one of the two. The best way to deal

RE: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Chris de Morsella
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 10:46 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On 10/25/2013 3:24 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: My

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread LizR
become convinced they can touch the voice of god… one of the two. ** ** *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Lin *Sent:* Friday, October 25, 2013 3:12 AM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Douglas

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
javascript: Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On 10/25/2013 3:24 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: My high-level objection is very simple: chess was an excuse to pursue AI. In an era of much lower computational power, people figured that for a computer to beat a GM at chess, some meaningful

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 7:33 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/25/2013 3:08 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Now take the game of go: human beings can still easily beat machines, even the most powerful computer currently available. Go is much more combinatorially explosive than chess, so

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 7:46 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/25/2013 3:24 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: My high-level objection is very simple: chess was an excuse to pursue AI. In an era of much lower computational power, people figured that for a computer to beat a GM at chess,

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread meekerdb
On 10/25/2013 2:09 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I'm not sure intelligence is a binary property. I would rather ask the question when computers win at GO, will AI have advanced? The answer is: it depends. I agree. Deep Blue didn't advance AI significantly - but the early research in chess playing

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Telmo Menezes
Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On 10/25/2013 3:24 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: My high-level objection is very simple: chess was an excuse to pursue AI. In an era of much lower computational power, people figured that for a computer to beat a GM at chess, some meaningful AI would have

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread meekerdb
On 10/25/2013 2:28 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 7:46 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/25/2013 3:24 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: My high-level objection is very simple: chess was an excuse to pursue AI. In an era of much lower computational power, people figured

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-25 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 11:39 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/25/2013 2:28 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 7:46 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/25/2013 3:24 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: My high-level objection is very simple: chess was an excuse to

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/11/the-man-who-would-teach-machines-to-think/309529/ The Man Who Would Teach Machines to Think ...Take Deep Blue, the IBM supercomputer that bested the chess

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:43:49 PM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/11/the-man-who-would-teach-machines-to-think/309529/ The Man Who Would

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread John Mikes
Craig and Telmo: Is anticipation involved at all? Deep Blue anticipated hundreds of steps in advance (and evaluated a potential outcome before accepting, or rejecting). What else is in thinking involved? I would like to know, because I have no idea. John Mikes On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM,

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 24, 2013 3:08:26 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote: Craig and Telmo: Is anticipation involved at all? Deep Blue anticipated hundreds of steps in advance (and evaluated a potential outcome before accepting, or rejecting). What else is in thinking involved? I would like to know,

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread Telmo Menezes
Hi John, On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:08 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Craig and Telmo: Is anticipation involved at all? Deep Blue anticipated hundreds of steps in advance (and evaluated a potential outcome before accepting, or rejecting). Sure. This issue though is that Deep Blue

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread LizR
I think what Deep Blue does is similar to what *parts *of the brain do, and it probably does *that* better (some human computers seem to use this facility in a more direct way than most of us can). However obviously something is missing - possibly the system that integrates all these little

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 24, 2013 4:47:15 PM UTC-4, Liz R wrote: I think what Deep Blue does is similar to what *parts *of the brain do, and it probably does *that* better (some human computers seem to use this facility in a more direct way than most of us can). However obviously something

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread meekerdb
On 10/24/2013 12:08 PM, John Mikes wrote: Craig and Telmo: Is anticipation involved at all? Deep Blue anticipated hundreds of steps in advance (and evaluated a potential outcome before accepting, or rejecting). What else is in thinking involved? I would like to know, because I have no idea.

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:43:49 PM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:29 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:43:49 PM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Craig Weinberg

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread LizR
I want a computer that can play poker. And Bridge. And Go. On 25 October 2013 12:11, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 11:29 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On 25 October 2013 03:39, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/11/the-man-who-would-teach-machines-to-think/309529/ The Man Who Would Teach Machines to Think ...Take Deep Blue, the IBM supercomputer that bested the chess grandmaster

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread LizR
On 25 October 2013 12:16, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: You could say that human chess players just take in visual data, process it in a series of biological relays, then send electrical signals to muscles that move the pieces around. This is what an alien scientist would

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 24, 2013 7:16:55 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On 25 October 2013 03:39, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/11/the-man-who-would-teach-machines-to-think/309529/ The Man Who Would Teach Machines

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread LizR
On 25 October 2013 14:31, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Looking at natural presences, like atoms or galaxies, the scope of their persistence is well beyond any human relation so they do deserve the benefit of the doubt. We have no reason to believe that they were assembled by

RE: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread chris peck
yep. organity is emergent. Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 14:46:54 +1300 Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article From: lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com On 25 October 2013 14:31, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Looking at natural presences, like atoms or galaxies

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On 25 October 2013 12:31, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: You could say that human chess players just take in visual data, process it in a series of biological relays, then send electrical signals to muscles that move the pieces around. This is what an alien scientist would

RE: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread chris peck
broaden the definition of thought and braininess to encompass it if you like, but that is just philosophical bias. They do not do what we do. Regards From: stath...@gmail.com Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 13:11:47 +1100 Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article To: everything-list@googlegroups.com

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread meekerdb
On 10/24/2013 8:09 PM, chris peck wrote: At this juncture then it becomes moot whether the computer is learning or thinking about grammar. It is a matter of philosophical taste. It certainly isn't learning or thinking as we learnt or thought when learning grammar. The way we cognate is the only

RE: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread chris peck
these mistakes. Thats all we need to know to say that the two systems are not the same. All we need to know to say the computer was not doing what children do. Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 20:35:05 -0700 From: meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread meekerdb
2013 20:35:05 -0700 From: meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On 10/24/2013 8:09 PM, chris peck wrote: At this juncture then it becomes moot whether the computer is learning or thinking about grammar. It is a matter

RE: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-24 Thread chris peck
by changing its definition. Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 20:52:39 -0700 From: meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On 10/24/2013 8:41 PM, chris peck wrote: Unfortunately we don't even have