Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-02-24 Thread ghibbsa
On Thursday, February 20, 2014 6:56:39 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi ghibbsa, On 20 Feb 2014, at 16:19, ghi...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: On Thursday, February 20, 2014 2:59:50 PM UTC, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Bruno, You've said somewhere in this thread that by logic comp

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-02-24 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 7:42 AM, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, February 20, 2014 6:56:39 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi ghibbsa, On 20 Feb 2014, at 16:19, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, February 20, 2014 2:59:50 PM UTC, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Bruno, You've said

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-02-24 Thread LizR
On 25 February 2014 01:57, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: MWI cannot be falsified in the Popperian sense because all scientific experiments are necessarily limited to one world. Yet MWI is central to asking the doctor. But there is no scientific experiment that verifies MWI.

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-02-20 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 19 Feb 2014, at 21:53, John Mikes wrote: Another silly question: Bruno and List: how on Earth can we talk aboput TOE? (unless we restrict it to the presently knowable inventory of physically identified E). Why should we restrict ourselves to the knowable inventory of physically

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-02-20 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi ghibbsa, On 20 Feb 2014, at 16:19, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, February 20, 2014 2:59:50 PM UTC, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Bruno, You've said somewhere in this thread that by logic comp cannot be incomplete because it's a religious position. Hmm... OK. No doubt

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-02-19 Thread John Mikes
Another silly question: Bruno and List: how on Earth can we talk aboput TOE? (unless we restrict it to the presently knowable inventory of physically identified E).- TOE was so different in the past and assumably: will be so diffeent later on. Your *mind* (or: being conscious?) begs the question

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-02-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Feb 2014, at 20:08, meekerdb wrote: On 2/2/2014 2:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Dear John, On 01 Feb 2014, at 23:29, John Mikes wrote: Dear Bruno, allow me NOT to repeat the entire shabang with only 'interjecing' some remarks. My main problem is the theorem (theory, hypothesis or

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-02-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Feb 2014, at 00:19, John Mikes wrote: Bruno wrote (among many others) on Feb 1 in replying to my post of Jan 31: ...mathematical truth is not substituted for reality. i show that the machine's epistemology is already richer than the mathematical truth. Then, yes, for the

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-02-02 Thread meekerdb
On 2/2/2014 2:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Dear John, On 01 Feb 2014, at 23:29, John Mikes wrote: Dear Bruno, allow me NOT to repeat the entire shabang with only 'interjecing' some remarks. My main problem is the theorem (theory, hypothesis or call it anyway you wish) of which - in my

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-02-02 Thread John Mikes
Bruno wrote (among many others) on Feb 1 in replying to my post of Jan 31: *...mathematical truth is not substituted for reality. i show that the machine's epistemology is already richer than the mathematical truth. * *Then, yes, for the ontology, IF we assume comp, then the mathematical, even

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-02-02 Thread John Mikes
Brent, lt me skip my frequently written argument about 'mishaps' that happen in our 'correct' predictions (like falling off airplanes from the sky, striking sicknesses with no known reason, failed economical predictions etc. etc..) Allow me to quote an old Hungarian proverb (they are smart in many

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi John, For some reason I cannot interleave comments/ I answer here. JM:Then again your ref. to the MW duplication is irrelevant for me: I do not duplicate. It goes with my answer NO to the doctor). I am more than knowable within today's inventory. Bruno: You are right. That is why you

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
Thanks for the explanation, Richard. Bruno On 26 Jan 2014, at 23:23, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 25 Jan 2014, at 14:05, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Jan 2014, at 23:26, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear LizR, You and Bruno have often complained that my postings lack rigor... For a nice formal representation of Heraclitean streams click here and read the bit about hypersets. BTW, this is a concept almost identical to what Lou

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 01:36, Stephen Paul King wrote: Like I have written previously, I am past the point of buying the idea that there is a Reality out there independent of us that we passively come to experience. I am tired of explanations that ask us to believe that change is an

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 02:55, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear LizR, On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 8:37 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 January 2014 13:39, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear LizR, By that standard we would still be living in caves Teehee. Have

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 03:25, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear LizR, George Spencer-Brown's Laws of Form are the place to start... I am not sure. I can appreciate what he did, and what Kauffman did from it, but my experience is that to begin with Spencer Brown makes the study of logic more

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 05:49, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 7:22 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 15:25, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear LizR, George Spencer-Brown's Laws of Form are the place to start... I'll add that to my reading list. But on which end? :-)

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, I think that where we differ is in how we think of numbers: I see them as merely representational, Parmenidean, you see them as more. The Heraclitean aspect is far more than p for me. On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 26 Jan 2014, at

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, No, time is observer dependent as well as observers supply the measures. Recall that I see time as a local measure of change. Change itself is not observer dependent, it flows eternally as the potential to Be of Becoming. On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 5:00 AM, Bruno Marchal

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 13:21, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, I think that where we differ is in how we think of numbers: I see them as merely representational, Parmenidean, you see them as more. But numbers can be used to represent things, like an address, but they are not

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 13:24, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, No, time is observer dependent as well as observers supply the measures. Sorry, I don't understand. Recall that I see time as a local measure of change. As long as you don't give me what you assume and what you

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Bruno, No, time is observer dependent as well as observers supply the measures. Recall that I see time as a local measure of change. Change itself is not observer dependent, it flows eternally as

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/26/2014 2:14 PM, LizR wrote: Watching Memento gives some idea of what's really going on, by showing what life would be like after a partial breakdown of how the brain fools us into thinking we have continuous existence. It isn't too much of a stretch from imagining living in 5 minute

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 23:56, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 05:49, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 7:22 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 15:25, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, George Spencer-Brown's Laws of

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 01:21, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear Bruno, I think that where we differ is in how we think of numbers: I see them as merely representational What do they represent? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 2:14 PM, LizR wrote: Watching Memento gives some idea of what's really going on, by showing what life would be like after a partial breakdown of how the brain fools us into thinking we have continuous existence. It

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/27/2014 2:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 2:14 PM, LizR wrote: Watching Memento gives some idea of what's really going on, by showing what life would be like after a partial breakdown

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Jan 2014, at 14:05, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 24 Jan 2014, at 23:12, meekerdb wrote: On 1/24/2014 12:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In your aristotelian theology. But when working on the mind-body problem, it

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Jan 2014, at 17:51, meekerdb wrote: On 1/25/2014 3:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And even if they did, why would that cause me to say no to the doctor. By the UDA. If you say yes to the doctor, physics emerges from all computations, and even plausibly from those who do not stop,

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Jan 2014, at 14:15, David Nyman wrote: On 25 January 2014 09:21, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Maybe the difference in intuition is because she doesn't think about it in Hoyle's universalist way, although ISTM this is implicit in the heuristic (i.e. the guy is the unique

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread John Mikes
On 19 Jan 2014, at 23:54, John Mikes wrote: *Bruno*, let me use simple words (you seem to overcomplicate my input). *JM: What IS the 'mind' you PRESERVE?* *BM:* My consciousness. - It means that I can surivive in the usal clinical sense, the brain

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Folks, I agree with John's most resent remark and his recommendation of the books. Here is a nice review of Collapse of Chaos: http://www.thenewhumanities.net/books/Book%20Reviews44.html On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 4:43 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 Jan 2014, at 23:54,

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Stephen Paul King
Also see: http://files.meetup.com/1819750/%2313%20-%20Ian%20Stewart%20-%20Figments%20of%20Reality.pdf On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Folks, I agree with John's most resent remark and his recommendation of the books. Here is a

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread LizR
On 26 January 2014 23:03, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 25 Jan 2014, at 14:15, David Nyman wrote: On 25 January 2014 09:21, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Maybe the difference in intuition is because she doesn't think about it in Hoyle's universalist way, although ISTM

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 5:14 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 January 2014 23:03, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 25 Jan 2014, at 14:15, David Nyman wrote: On 25 January 2014 09:21, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Maybe the difference in intuition is

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 25 Jan 2014, at 14:05, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 24 Jan 2014, at 23:12, meekerdb wrote: On 1/24/2014 12:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, You and Bruno have often complained that my postings lack rigor... For a nice formal representation of Heraclitean streams click

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread John Mikes
Stephen: thanks for your consent and the book review. I have the oher one. John On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Folks, I agree with John's most resent remark and his recommendation of the books. Here is a nice review of Collapse

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear John, LOL your most welcome. :-) Those books where part of my (on-going)education. It is great to see them mentioned. On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 5:36 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Stephen: thanks for your consent and the book review. I have the oher one. John On Sun, Jan 26,

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 11:20, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: 'Because, like all of us in our daily lives, you're stuck with a grotesque and absurd illusion.' 'How's that?' 'The idea of time as an ever-rolling stream. The thing which is supposed to bear all its sons away.

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 11:26, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, You and Bruno have often complained that my postings lack rigor... For a nice formal representation of Heraclitean streams click

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, : the idea of time as a steady progression from past to future is wrong. I know very well we feel this way about it subjectively. But we're the victims of a confidence trick... What other implication does Hoyle's phrasing have? His entire discussion of the pigeon holes is to point

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, Keep going! Don't stop there, hear out the fellow's definition and think about it. On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 6:42 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 January 2014 11:26, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, You and Bruno have often complained that

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 12:48, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, : the idea of time as a steady progression from past to future is wrong. I know very well we feel this way about it subjectively. But we're the victims of a confidence trick... What other implication

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 12:49, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, Keep going! Don't stop there, hear out the fellow's definition and think about it. It's far too complicated for my little brain. You must have noticed me (slowly and painfully) working out the answers

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, Very good points that you make, but they are peripheral What I am trying to draw attention is: How did the order and the relating come to pass? (in the last sentence you wrote.) Is is just sitting there, in eternity, and our consciousness somehow is a reflection of this order

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, By that standard we would still be living in caves Sorry, knowledge does not come cheaply. :_( It has taken me countless hours of reading to get to where I am.. What is one to do, when trying to explain an idea that is unconventional? I can't seem to just shut up... On Sun,

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 13:36, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, Very good points that you make, but they are peripheral What I am trying to draw attention is: How did the order and the relating come to pass? (in the last sentence you wrote.) This is the

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 13:39, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, By that standard we would still be living in caves Teehee. Have you been reading Camille Paglia... Personally I think this should be a touchstone for all people with unconventional ideas. Once you

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, I will let Kevin Knuth answer for me: http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1831 On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 8:33 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 January 2014 13:36, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, Very good points that you make, but they

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 8:37 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 January 2014 13:39, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, By that standard we would still be living in caves Teehee. Have you been reading Camille Paglia... No... good to

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 14:55, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: I just wish I could figure out how to get him (and you!) to acknowledge that there is a distinction that makes a difference between a thing and its representation. There are rules and principles of distinctions

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 14:50, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, I will let Kevin Knuth answer for me: http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1831 Thanks, I will add that to my reading list. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear LizR, George Spencer-Brown's Laws of Form http://www.lawsofform.org/lof.htmlare the place to start... On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 9:22 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 January 2014 14:55, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: I just wish I could figure out how to

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 15:25, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, George Spencer-Brown's Laws of Formhttp://www.lawsofform.org/lof.htmlare the place to start... I'll add that to my reading list. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread meekerdb
On 1/26/2014 7:22 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 15:25, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com mailto:stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear LizR, George Spencer-Brown's Laws of Form http://www.lawsofform.org/lof.html are the place to start... I'll add that to my

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-26 Thread LizR
My reading list is endless... On 27 January 2014 17:49, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 7:22 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 15:25, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, George Spencer-Brown's Laws of

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 24 Jan 2014, at 22:26, meekerdb wrote: On 1/23/2014 11:59 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Only the idealized computations of Turing. Computations in my computer always stop. Because you assume that it exists in some ontological sense. That might be possible. My point is that if this was

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 24 Jan 2014, at 23:12, meekerdb wrote: On 1/24/2014 12:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In your aristotelian theology. But when working on the mind-body problem, it is better to abandon all prejudices on this. Indeed with comp, it is the concrete laptop which appears as an (unconscious

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-25 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 24 Jan 2014, at 23:12, meekerdb wrote: On 1/24/2014 12:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In your aristotelian theology. But when working on the mind-body problem, it is better to abandon all prejudices on this. Indeed

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-25 Thread David Nyman
On 25 January 2014 09:21, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Maybe the difference in intuition is because she doesn't think about it in Hoyle's universalist way, although ISTM this is implicit in the heuristic (i.e. the guy is the unique and non-simultaneous owner of the experiences in

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-25 Thread meekerdb
On 1/25/2014 3:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And even if they did, why would that cause me to say no to the doctor. By the UDA. If you say yes to the doctor, physics emerges from all computations, and even plausibly from those who do not stop, which have a higher measure than those which

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-25 Thread LizR
AFAIK that is the first known statement of quantum suicide (or quantum immortality). If Hoyle wasn't aware of Everett he certainly had similar ideas. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-24 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 Jan 2014, at 19:42, meekerdb wrote: On 1/23/2014 1:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Jan 2014, at 00:34, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2014 1:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Jan 2014, at 21:33, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 2:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Only to make the UDA non valid.

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-24 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 Jan 2014, at 19:50, meekerdb wrote: On 1/23/2014 2:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Jan 2014, at 00:45, meekerdb wrote: snip What makes you sure that the idea that all programs terminates is not also an idealisation (about a finite universal reality)? Also, if all programs

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-24 Thread David Nyman
On 23 January 2014 21:18, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The question then arises: Could the intuition of such a multiplex of random momentary filterings possibly give an adequate account of the myriad, ordered experiential trajectories of each and every one of us? I can't see how

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-24 Thread meekerdb
On 1/23/2014 11:59 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Only the idealized computations of Turing. Computations in my computer always stop. Because you assume that it exists in some ontological sense. That might be possible. My point is that if this was really the case, you can't say yes to the doctor

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-24 Thread meekerdb
On 1/24/2014 12:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In your aristotelian theology. But when working on the mind-body problem, it is better to abandon all prejudices on this. Indeed with comp, it is the concrete laptop which appears as an (unconscious preprogrammed) idealization. Of course I'd say

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-24 Thread Russell Standish
On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 02:12:57PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: You mention that you think octonion Hilbert space will be found to be more fundamental than complex Hilbert space. Of course many people have speculated that quaternions or octonions will be more fundamental, but nothing definite has

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-24 Thread meekerdb
On 1/24/2014 2:58 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 02:12:57PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: You mention that you think octonion Hilbert space will be found to be more fundamental than complex Hilbert space. Of course many people have speculated that quaternions or octonions will be

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-24 Thread Russell Standish
On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 06:35:16PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: On 1/24/2014 2:58 PM, Russell Standish wrote: Indeed - with my derivation of QM, octonions, or more general measure are preferred over the complex. Which naturally leads to the question of why complex. Either octonions make no empirical

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread LizR
On 23 January 2014 19:39, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:33 PM, LizR wrote: On 23 January 2014 08:22, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: We need the Becoming that is implicit in the moving flashlight, at least to give us a window of finite

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread LizR
On 23 January 2014 19:45, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, With quantum field theory we are still using the idea of a single space-time manifold to glue it all together but this itself could be one of the problems that we have in physics. Yes, that's true.

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread LizR
On 23 January 2014 19:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:38 PM, LizR wrote: On 23 January 2014 19:35, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:21 PM, LizR wrote: The real world doesn't add raindrops, or most other things we think of as entities - adding

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 22 Jan 2014, at 19:06, David Nyman wrote: On 22 January 2014 09:45, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I think I said the fl;ashlight wasn't needed, so it isn't there, and so nothing moves it around. The pigeonholes stand for states of consciousness, so they perceive what it would

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 Jan 2014, at 00:34, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2014 1:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Jan 2014, at 21:33, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 2:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Only to make the UDA non valid. It works, if Brent meant a mathematical ultrafinitism. But this change comp, like it

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 Jan 2014, at 00:45, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2014 1:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Jan 2014, at 01:02, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 3:30 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 3:30 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/21/2014 8:13 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Why

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 Jan 2014, at 07:35, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:21 PM, LizR wrote: The real world doesn't add raindrops, or most other things we think of as entities - adding raindrops isn't 1+1, nature is really adding something like 10^25 atoms to another 10^25. But it _does_ add bosons in a

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 Jan 2014, at 07:39, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:33 PM, LizR wrote: On 23 January 2014 08:22, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: We need the Becoming that is implicit in the moving flashlight, at least to give us a window of finiteduration

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 Jan 2014, at 07:42, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:38 PM, LizR wrote: On 23 January 2014 19:35, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:21 PM, LizR wrote: The real world doesn't add raindrops, or most other things we think of as entities - adding raindrops

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread David Nyman
On 23 January 2014 08:39, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Let us take the WM-duplication. Suppose that the guy in Helsinki is told that the randomly chosen unique flaslight sequence will illuminate W just after the duplication (if this makes sense). Should he decide that P(W) = 1 and

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread meekerdb
On 1/23/2014 1:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Jan 2014, at 00:34, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2014 1:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Jan 2014, at 21:33, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 2:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Only to make the UDA non valid. It works, if Brent meant a mathematical

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread meekerdb
On 1/23/2014 2:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Jan 2014, at 00:45, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2014 1:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Jan 2014, at 01:02, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 3:30 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 3:30 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread meekerdb
On 1/23/2014 2:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Jan 2014, at 07:42, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:38 PM, LizR wrote: On 23 January 2014 19:35, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:21 PM, LizR wrote: The real world doesn't add

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 Jan 2014, at 17:05, David Nyman wrote: On 23 January 2014 08:39, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Let us take the WM-duplication. Suppose that the guy in Helsinki is told that the randomly chosen unique flaslight sequence will illuminate W just after the duplication (if this

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread LizR
On 23 January 2014 23:47, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 23 Jan 2014, at 07:42, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:38 PM, LizR wrote: On 23 January 2014 19:35, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/22/2014 10:21 PM, LizR wrote: The real world doesn't add raindrops, or most

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread meekerdb
On 1/23/2014 2:40 PM, LizR wrote: This appears to be the fundamental bone of contention between you and Brent. He appears to believe arithmetic is a human invention which relates to reality because, well, (waves hands, and cunningly slips AR hat on) ... it just does, somehow. It relates to

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread LizR
On 24 January 2014 11:51, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/23/2014 2:40 PM, LizR wrote: This appears to be the fundamental bone of contention between you and Brent. He appears to believe arithmetic is a human invention which relates to reality because, well, (waves hands, and

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread meekerdb
On 1/23/2014 3:42 PM, LizR wrote: On 24 January 2014 11:51, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/23/2014 2:40 PM, LizR wrote: This appears to be the fundamental bone of contention between you and Brent. He appears to believe arithmetic is a human

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread LizR
On 24 January 2014 14:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I'd say a finitist form of arithmetic is a good description of some aspects of reality - but don't try to add raindrops or build Hilbert's Hotel. OK. So are there some fundamental aspects of reality that can't be described by

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread meekerdb
On 1/23/2014 5:46 PM, LizR wrote: On 24 January 2014 14:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I'd say a finitist form of arithmetic is a good description of some aspects of reality - but don't try to add raindrops or build Hilbert's Hotel. OK. So are

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread LizR
On 24 January 2014 16:08, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/23/2014 5:46 PM, LizR wrote: On 24 January 2014 14:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I'd say a finitist form of arithmetic is a good description of some aspects of reality - but don't try to add raindrops or build

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread meekerdb
On 1/23/2014 7:33 PM, LizR wrote: On 24 January 2014 16:08, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/23/2014 5:46 PM, LizR wrote: On 24 January 2014 14:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I'd say a finitist

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-23 Thread LizR
Oh well, I will remove my AR hat for now and put on my poet's hat. It's much more becoming in any case. On 24 January 2014 16:46, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/23/2014 7:33 PM, LizR wrote: On 24 January 2014 16:08, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/23/2014 5:46 PM,

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 21 Jan 2014, at 21:16, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 2:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Jan 2014, at 18:36, meekerdb wrote: On 1/20/2014 12:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 19 Jan 2014, at 22:31, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 9:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But why should that imply

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 21 Jan 2014, at 21:25, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 2:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Jan 2014, at 21:19, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, Is it possible for a Computation to be a Model also? What is the obstruction? ? Is it possible for an apple to be an orange?

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 21 Jan 2014, at 21:30, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 2:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Jan 2014, at 02:25, meekerdb wrote: On 1/20/2014 5:00 PM, LizR wrote: On 21 January 2014 06:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/20/2014 1:11 AM, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 18:51,

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 21 Jan 2014, at 21:33, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 2:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Only to make the UDA non valid. It works, if Brent meant a mathematical ultrafinitism. But this change comp, like it changes elementary arithmetic (which suppose at least that 0 ≠ s(x), and x ≠ y implies

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 22 Jan 2014, at 01:02, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2014 3:30 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 3:30 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/21/2014 8:13 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Why would you want to do that? It seems like an unnecessary extra axiom that doesn't have

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