Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Jun 2013, at 20:49, meekerdb wrote: On 6/12/2013 1:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Arithmetic is large, and I do not know of any theorem in math which is not a theorem in arithmetic, except in mathematical logic, and universal algebra, which are typically meta-mathematics. What about

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Jun 2013, at 20:57, Jason Resch wrote: On Jun 12, 2013, at 1:52 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/12/2013 2:20 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 11 Jun 2013, at 23:18, John Mikes wrote: Laughing

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Jun 2013, at 23:57, Jason Resch wrote: On Jun 12, 2013, at 3:23 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/12/2013 11:57 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jun 12, 2013, at 1:52 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/12/2013 2:20 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Jun 2013, at 18:28, meekerdb wrote: On 6/11/2013 12:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Jun 2013, at 20:04, meekerdb wrote: Not one you can prove from arithmetic or logic. But the point was that true propositions, like Flying pink elephants are pink don't imply the existence

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Jun 2013, at 18:32, meekerdb wrote: On 6/11/2013 1:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Jun 2013, at 22:49, meekerdb wrote: On 6/10/2013 1:06 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: So numbers do not exist? They don't exist like elephants do. They may exist like Christmas or Sherlock Homes

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Jun 2013, at 19:04, Jason Resch wrote: From the video: What we do is we use the story of math, which is very good and very complete I think that summarizes the error of fictionalism. To believe math is a human created invention requires believing that everything we can ever know

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Jun 2013, at 23:18, John Mikes wrote: Laughing stock: how can so many excellently educted and smart(est) scientists SERIOUSLY debate on farces like flying pink elephants? Those are test cases, extreme case, to argue more easily on the question of existence, which is not obvious. Of

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 11 Jun 2013, at 23:18, John Mikes wrote: Laughing stock: how can so many excellently educted and smart(est) scientists SERIOUSLY debate on farces like flying pink elephants? Those are test cases, extreme case, to

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 11 Jun 2013, at 23:18, John Mikes wrote: Laughing stock: how can so many excellently educted and smart(est) scientists SERIOUSLY debate on farces like flying pink

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 12 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 11 Jun 2013, at 23:18, John Mikes wrote: Laughing stock: how can so many excellently educted

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread Alberto G. Corona
This is the documentary mentioned Flying wales at 1:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLRijkhDqRU my pleasure 2013/6/12 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 12 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote: On

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread Alberto G. Corona
This one more informative and without annoying music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p3m32AUwUM 2013/6/12 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com This is the documentary mentioned Flying wales at 1:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLRijkhDqRU my pleasure 2013/6/12 Telmo Menezes

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Jun 2013, at 14:15, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 12 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 11 Jun 2013, at 23:18, John Mikes wrote:

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread meekerdb
On 6/12/2013 1:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Arithmetic is large, and I do not know of any theorem in math which is not a theorem in arithmetic, except in mathematical logic, and universal algebra, which are typically meta-mathematics. What about theorems in calculus and topology? Brent --

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread meekerdb
On 6/12/2013 2:20 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Bruno Marchalmarc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 11 Jun 2013, at 23:18, John Mikes wrote: Laughing stock: how can so many excellently educted and smart(est) scientists SERIOUSLY debate on farces like flying pink elephants?

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread Jason Resch
On Jun 12, 2013, at 1:52 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/12/2013 2:20 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 11 Jun 2013, at 23:18, John Mikes wrote: Laughing stock: how can so many excellently educted and

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread meekerdb
On 6/12/2013 11:57 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jun 12, 2013, at 1:52 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/12/2013 2:20 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Bruno Marchalmarc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 11 Jun

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread Jason Resch
On Jun 12, 2013, at 3:23 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/12/2013 11:57 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jun 12, 2013, at 1:52 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/12/2013 2:20 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-12 Thread meekerdb
On 6/12/2013 2:57 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jun 12, 2013, at 3:23 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/12/2013 11:57 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jun 12, 2013, at 1:52 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/12/2013

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Jun 2013, at 20:04, meekerdb wrote: On 6/10/2013 10:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Jun 2013, at 18:25, meekerdb wrote: On 6/10/2013 12:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Jun 2013, at 22:06, Stephen Paul King wrote: So numbers do not exist? Why? In most elementary (first order) theory of arithmetic, you can prove the following: Ex(x = 0) Ex(x = s(0)) Ex(x = s(s(0))) etc. Bruno On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Jun 2013, at 22:49, meekerdb wrote: On 6/10/2013 1:06 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: So numbers do not exist? They don't exist like elephants do. They may exist like Christmas or Sherlock Homes do. Is Sherlock Holmes a human? Please give us your theory of human, so that we can

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-11 Thread meekerdb
On 6/11/2013 12:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Jun 2013, at 20:04, meekerdb wrote: On 6/10/2013 10:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Jun 2013, at 18:25, meekerdb wrote: On 6/10/2013 12:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-11 Thread meekerdb
On 6/11/2013 1:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Jun 2013, at 22:49, meekerdb wrote: On 6/10/2013 1:06 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: So numbers do not exist? They don't exist like elephants do. They may exist like Christmas or Sherlock Homes do. Is Sherlock Holmes a human? Please give

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-11 Thread Jason Resch
From the video: What we do is we use the story of math, which is very good and very complete I think that summarizes the error of fictionalism. To believe math is a human created invention requires believing that everything we can ever know about math comes from the starting assumptions we

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-11 Thread John Mikes
Laughing stock: how can so many excellently educted and smart(est) scientists SERIOUSLY debate on farces like flying pink elephants? JM On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 12:28 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/11/2013 12:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Jun 2013, at 20:04, meekerdb wrote:

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-11 Thread Stephen Paul King
Sadly, John, many people don't get the existence question! On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 5:18 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Laughing stock: how can so many excellently educted and smart(est) scientists SERIOUSLY debate on farces like flying pink elephants? JM On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-10 Thread meekerdb
On 6/7/2013 10:41 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: If you believe that a flying pink elephant is pink, must you believe a flying pink elephant exists? Yes, at least for the chap that holds the belief and the belief is true (ala Bruno). The belief a flying pink elephant is pink is

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-10 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 17:55, meekerdb wrote: On 6/8/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Jun

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jun 2013, at 20:48, meekerdb wrote: On 6/9/2013 12:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 17:55, meekerdb wrote: On 6/8/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 05:15, meekerdb wrote: On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Yes, if there was a text of

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jun 2013, at 20:58, meekerdb wrote: On 6/9/2013 5:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Then fictionalism can make sense only if we assume some basic physical existence, or reality, as the not explicit contrary of fiction. Yes. Fictionalism is probably right about mathematics - but it's

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-10 Thread meekerdb
On 6/10/2013 12:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 17:55, meekerdb wrote: On 6/8/2013

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Jun 2013, at 18:25, meekerdb wrote: On 6/10/2013 12:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 Jun

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-10 Thread meekerdb
On 6/10/2013 10:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Jun 2013, at 18:25, meekerdb wrote: On 6/10/2013 12:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Bruno

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-10 Thread Stephen Paul King
So numbers do not exist? On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 10 Jun 2013, at 18:25, meekerdb wrote: On 6/10/2013 12:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-10 Thread meekerdb
On 6/10/2013 1:06 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: So numbers do not exist? They don't exist like elephants do. They may exist like Christmas or Sherlock Homes do. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Jun 2013, at 14:23, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even within conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed recently on this list. In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that is not strictly forbidden by

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Jun 2013, at 15:56, Stephen Paul King wrote: Wrong Bruno, Flying pink elephants could be 'off mass shell', virtual elephants. Their color is a superposition of pink and not pink, which makes them, on average, colorless unless we look *very* carefully. Your test for 'reality' is

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Jun 2013, at 17:55, meekerdb wrote: On 6/8/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 05:15, meekerdb wrote: On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found this:

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jun 2013, at 03:12, Stephen Paul King wrote: My complaint is that there doesn't seem to be a consistent definition of existence! Because it does not make sense. That's why we treat existence through quantification. Bruno On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Stephen Paul King

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jun 2013, at 02:37, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: But if such a real physical pink elephant can't exist, that means that it is not a logically consistent concept to begin with. Assuming that everything consistent exist, but that depends on other assumptions. In arithmetic, it is

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 17:55, meekerdb wrote: On 6/8/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 05:15, meekerdb wrote: On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Yes, if there was a text of this it would be

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 17:55, meekerdb wrote: On 6/8/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 05:15, meekerdb wrote: On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 17:55, meekerdb wrote: On 6/8/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 05:15, meekerdb wrote: On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread Stephen Paul King
Wrong Bruno, Flying pink elephants could be 'off mass shell', virtual elephants. Their color is a superposition of pink and not pink, which makes them, on average, colorless unless we look *very* carefully. Your test for 'reality' is unphysical because it assumes that *infinite computations that

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
Stephen, there is a problem with the format. Could you please to reformat it as it is impossible to reply to it. Thanks. I will answer asap, but probably not today. best, Bruno On 09 Jun 2013, at 17:53, Stephen Paul King wrote: Wrong Bruno, Flying pink elephants could be 'off mass shell',

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread Stephen Paul King
[SPKold] Wrong Bruno, Flying pink elephants could be 'off mass shell', virtual elephants. Their color is a superposition of pink and not pink, which makes them, on average, colorless unless we look *very* carefully. [BM]Your test for 'reality' is unphysical because it assumes that *infinite

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread meekerdb
On 6/9/2013 12:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 17:55, meekerdb wrote: On 6/8/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 05:15, meekerdb wrote: On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found this:

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread meekerdb
On 6/9/2013 5:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Then fictionalism can make sense only if we assume some basic physical existence, or reality, as the not explicit contrary of fiction. Yes. Fictionalism is probably right about mathematics - but it's also right about physics. Elementary arithmetic

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-09 Thread John Mikes
Brent: thanx for the text, I downloaded it and still read it. Interesting. Fun: it says about math objects that they are abstract. (e.g. No 3) In Hungary children are taught that an abstract means:non tangible, e.i. not touchable by bare hands (Hungarian has a better such expression). Jokingly:

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Jun 2013, at 05:15, meekerdb wrote: On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found this: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/ A fictionalist account holds that some things are fictional, i.e. don't

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Jun 2013, at 07:41, Stephen Paul King wrote: If you believe that a flying pink elephant is pink, must you believe a flying pink elephant exists? Yes, at least for the chap that holds the belief and the belief is true (ala Bruno). Right, but like I said, I believe also that flying

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread smitra
They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even within conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed recently on this list. In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that is not strictly forbidden by the conservation laws will happen. Flying pink

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King
Wrong Bruno, Flying pink elephants could be 'off mass shell', virtual elephants. Their color is a superposition of pink and not pink, which makes them, on average, colorless unless we look *very* carefully. Your test for 'reality' is unphysical because it assumes that *infinite computations that

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King
I agree, Saibal, but we don't really need to have an actual creature living and breathing creature; any simulation of an 'elephant' will do. All that matters is that the resources that support the 'creature' are verifiable in multiple independent ways. On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 8:23 AM,

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King
And so I can easily prove that flying pink elephant does not exist, as far as I am consistent. Ah, Dear Bruno, you are not the only one that must agree that the elephant does not exist (unless you embrace that you are a consistent solipsist!) On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 4:28 AM, Bruno Marchal

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread meekerdb
On 6/8/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Jun 2013, at 05:15, meekerdb wrote: On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found this: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/ A fictionalist account holds that

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread meekerdb
On 6/8/2013 5:23 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: They exist if there is a consistent description of them. Even within conventional physics there is room for that, as discussed recently on this list. In the MWI or in eternal inflation models, everything that is not strictly forbidden by the

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread John Mikes
You are mixing conventional physicalist-materialist apples with imaginary oranges. Anything 'could be'. Question: would such anything be topic for this physicalist-based conventional EVERYTHING List? Q-2: are OUR colors defined for different physical circumstances as well? BTW - IMO flying is not

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread meekerdb
On 6/8/2013 12:03 PM, John Mikes wrote: You are mixing conventional physicalist-materialist apples with imaginary oranges. Anything 'could be'. That's my point. Anything 'could be' if the only constraint is logical consistency (not self contradictory). But in the sense of 'be' that requires

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King
Hi Brent, So what would a computer generated simulation of a Pink Elephant in a simulated world be? Would it exist? On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 4:39 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/8/2013 12:03 PM, John Mikes wrote: You are mixing conventional physicalist-materialist apples with

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread meekerdb
On 6/8/2013 4:38 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Brent, So what would a computer generated simulation of a Pink Elephant in a simulated world be? Would it exist? It would exist in the computer simulation. But would it be a Pink Elephant - that seems like a question of semantics. We look

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King
I am trying to make a point about existence... On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 7:49 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/8/2013 4:38 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Brent, So what would a computer generated simulation of a Pink Elephant in a simulated world be? Would it exist? It

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread smitra
But if such a real physical pink elephant can't exist, that means that it is not a logically consistent concept to begin with. If one starts from a logically consistent system, then one can always find a physical system whose equations of motion realize it, it will then exist in a generic

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King
smi...@zonnet.nl viahttp://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=enctx=mailanswer=1311182 googlegroups.com 8:37 PM (31 minutes ago) to everything-list But if such a real physical pink elephant can't exist, that means that it is not a logically consistent concept to begin with. If one starts

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Stephen Paul King
My complaint is that there doesn't seem to be a consistent definition of existence! On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Stephen Paul King kingstephenp...@gmail.com wrote: smi...@zonnet.nl viahttp://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=enctx=mailanswer=1311182 googlegroups.com 8:37 PM

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
In my view, mathematics refers to two things: 1) A private experience of imagined sensory figures or symbols which represent quantitative values and linear reasoning. 2) When applied to public objects, math provides a logic which is derived from the common sense of spatial extension: fixed

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-08 Thread meekerdb
On 6/8/2013 5:37 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: But if such a real physical pink elephant can't exist, that means that it is not a logically consistent concept to begin with. That's your metaphysical assumption. It doesn't follow from QM. If one starts from a logically consistent system, then

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-07 Thread John Mikes
Stephen: I tried. I have difficulty in following fast talking videos in general, wouold appreciate to have it as URL somewhere. John Mikes On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@charter.netwrote: For your entertainment:

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-07 Thread Stephen Paul King
Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found this: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/ On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 6:33 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Stephen: I tried. I have difficulty in following fast talking videos in general, wouold

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-07 Thread meekerdb
On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found this: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/ A fictionalist account holds that some things are fictional, i.e. don't exist even though their complete description is

Re: Fictionalism!

2013-06-07 Thread Stephen Paul King
If you believe that a flying pink elephant is pink, must you believe a flying pink elephant exists? Yes, at least for the chap that holds the belief and the belief is true (ala Bruno). On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:15 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul