Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 12 Mar 2018, at 02:37, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/11/2018 10:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> That's false. You implicitly and without proof or ever evidence assume >>> that mathematics, computation, and abstractions like numbers exist, >> I have to assume

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 12 Mar 2018, at 02:22, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/11/2018 9:53 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 10 Mar 2018, at 22:11, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/10/2018 12:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 8 Mar 2018, at 17:10, Telmo

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-11 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/11/2018 10:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That's false. You implicitly and without proof or ever evidence assume that mathematics, computation, and abstractions like numbers exist, I have to assume them because the notion of computation needs them to be defined mathematically. Now if

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-11 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/11/2018 9:53 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Mar 2018, at 22:11, Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/10/2018 12:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 8 Mar 2018, at 17:10, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:57 PM, Bruno Marchal

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 10 Mar 2018, at 22:24, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/10/2018 12:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 21:11, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/8/2018 7:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 7 Mar 2018, at 15:24, Telmo

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 10 Mar 2018, at 22:11, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/10/2018 12:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 17:10, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:57 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 7 Mar

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-10 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/10/2018 12:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 8 Mar 2018, at 21:11, Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/8/2018 7:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 7 Mar 2018, at 15:24, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Brent Meeker

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-10 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/10/2018 12:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 8 Mar 2018, at 17:10, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:57 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 7 Mar 2018, at 15:24, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 1:27 AM,

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 8 Mar 2018, at 21:11, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/8/2018 7:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 7 Mar 2018, at 15:24, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: On

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 8 Mar 2018, at 17:10, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:57 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 7 Mar 2018, at 15:24, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Brent Meeker

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-08 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/8/2018 7:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 7 Mar 2018, at 15:24, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/5/2018 11:49 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:37 AM, Brent Meeker

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-08 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:57 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 7 Mar 2018, at 15:24, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 3/5/2018 11:49 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> On

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 7 Mar 2018, at 15:24, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: >> >> >> On 3/5/2018 11:49 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:37 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: >> >>

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 7 Mar 2018, at 02:16, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/6/2018 5:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 6 Mar 2018, at 01:37, Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/5/2018 9:14 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-07 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 3/5/2018 11:49 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:37 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > On 3/5/2018 9:14 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > "Could" implies a question about

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-06 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/6/2018 5:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 6 Mar 2018, at 01:37, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 3/5/2018 9:14 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: "Could" implies a question about possibilities. It's certainly logically possible that there not be such

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-06 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/5/2018 11:49 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:37 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/5/2018 9:14 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: "Could" implies a question about possibilities. It's certainly logically possible that there not be such a disease as leukemia.

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-06 Thread PGC
On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 2:20:37 PM UTC+1, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > > On 6 Mar 2018, at 00:50, Brent Meeker > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 3/5/2018 6:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >>> On 4 Mar 2018, at 23:00, Brent Meeker > wrote: > >>> >

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-06 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 6 Mar 2018, at 01:37, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/5/2018 9:14 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> "Could" implies a question about possibilities. It's certainly logically >>> possible that there not be such a disease as leukemia. Is it nomologically >>>

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-06 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 6 Mar 2018, at 00:50, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/5/2018 6:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 4 Mar 2018, at 23:00, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/3/2018 11:48 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 7:43 AM,

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-05 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:37 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 3/5/2018 9:14 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > "Could" implies a question about possibilities. It's certainly logically > possible that there not be such a disease as leukemia. Is it nomologically > possible?...not

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-05 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/5/2018 9:14 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: "Could" implies a question about possibilities. It's certainly logically possible that there not be such a disease as leukemia. Is it nomologically possible?...not as far as we know. Well I'm not sure it's logically possible, for the reasons that

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-05 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/5/2018 6:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 4 Mar 2018, at 23:00, Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/3/2018 11:48 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 7:43 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/3/2018 1:47 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Mar 3,

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-05 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 11:00 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 3/3/2018 11:48 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 7:43 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 3/3/2018 1:47 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:41

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 4 Mar 2018, at 23:00, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/3/2018 11:48 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 7:43 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> On 3/3/2018 1:47 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:41 PM, Telmo

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-04 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/3/2018 11:48 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 7:43 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/3/2018 1:47 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:41 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:51 PM, Brent Meeker

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-03 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 7:43 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 3/3/2018 1:47 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:41 PM, Telmo Menezes >> wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:51 PM, Brent Meeker >>> wrote:

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-03 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/3/2018 1:47 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:41 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:51 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/28/2018 3:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: So what do you find more convincing: An axiomatic

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-03 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:41 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:51 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: >> >> >> On 2/28/2018 3:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> So what do you find more convincing: An axiomatic proof that God exists, >> e.g.

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-03 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:51 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 2/28/2018 3:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > So what do you find more convincing: An axiomatic proof that God exists, > e.g. St Anslem's or Goedel's. or The mere empirical absence of evidence. > > In these

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 2 Mar 2018, at 23:24, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/2/2018 11:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> It doesn't miss it anymore than your theory. You just postulate that >>> consciousness corresponds to some theorems about self-reference. >> >> Not at all. I

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 2 Mar 2018, at 23:14, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/2/2018 11:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> But you're now confounding provable and true and using "existence" in the >>> sense of satisfying axioms as though it mean the same as in common >>> discourse. >> >>

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-02 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/2/2018 11:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It doesn't miss it anymore than your theory.  You just postulate that consciousness corresponds to some theorems about self-reference. Not at all. I postulate only that consciousness is true for the machine I will be after the transplant made at

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-02 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/2/2018 11:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But you're now confounding provable and true and using "existence" in the sense of satisfying axioms as though it mean the same as in common discourse. The UD exist and is emulated in the same sense that the prime numbers are distributed in some

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 1 Mar 2018, at 21:37, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/1/2018 2:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 1 Mar 2018, at 00:19, Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/28/2018 7:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-01 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/1/2018 2:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 1 Mar 2018, at 00:19, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 2/28/2018 7:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Feb 2018, at 19:09, Brent Meeker > wrote:

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 1 Mar 2018, at 00:19, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/28/2018 7:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 26 Feb 2018, at 19:09, Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/26/2018 2:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-28 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/28/2018 7:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Feb 2018, at 19:09, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 2/26/2018 2:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Feb 2018, at 20:37, Brent Meeker > wrote:

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-28 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/28/2018 3:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: So what do you find more convincing: An axiomatic proof that God exists, e.g. St Anslem's or Goedel's. or The mere empirical absence of evidence. In these proves, God = Totality / Ultimate Reality / The Whole Shebang. They don't mention

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 27 Feb 2018, at 11:42, Telmo Menezes wrote: > >> Depends on what you mean by "proof", we sentence people to prison based on >> proof of their crime. Not all proof is mathematical. And mathematical >> proof is only relative to the axioms. > > I think that this is

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 26 Feb 2018, at 19:09, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/26/2018 2:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 23 Feb 2018, at 20:37, Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/23/2018 12:46 AM, Bruno Marchal

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-28 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 7:20 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 2/27/2018 2:42 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Depends on what you mean by "proof", we sentence people to prison based on > proof of their crime. Not all proof is mathematical. And mathematical > proof is only

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-27 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/27/2018 2:42 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Depends on what you mean by "proof", we sentence people to prison based on proof of their crime. Not all proof is mathematical. And mathematical proof is only relative to the axioms. I think that this is one of those cases where the term is

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-27 Thread Telmo Menezes
> Depends on what you mean by "proof", we sentence people to prison based on > proof of their crime. Not all proof is mathematical. And mathematical > proof is only relative to the axioms. I think that this is one of those cases where the term is overloaded. I would argue that, for most people,

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-26 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/26/2018 2:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Feb 2018, at 20:37, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 2/23/2018 12:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Feb 2018, at 23:17, Brent Meeker > wrote:

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 23 Feb 2018, at 20:37, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/23/2018 12:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 22 Feb 2018, at 23:17, Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/22/2018 1:09 AM, Bruno Marchal

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-23 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/23/2018 12:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Feb 2018, at 23:17, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 2/22/2018 1:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Feb 2018, at 00:48, Brent Meeker > wrote:

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 22 Feb 2018, at 23:17, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/22/2018 1:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 21 Feb 2018, at 00:48, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/18/2018 10:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If consciousness is invariant

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-22 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/22/2018 1:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Feb 2018, at 00:48, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/18/2018 10:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If consciousness is invariant for a digital transplant, it is not much a matter of choice. But that's simply assuming what is to be

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 21 Feb 2018, at 00:48, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/18/2018 10:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> If consciousness is invariant for a digital transplant, it is not much a >> matter of choice. > > But that's simply assuming what is to be argued. ? It is the

Re: INDEXICAL Computationalism

2018-02-20 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/18/2018 10:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If consciousness is invariant for a digital transplant, it is not much a matter of choice. But that's simply assuming what is to be argued.  The argument must be that the doctor has done this before (maybe to humans, maybe to mice) and there was