Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-24 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/23/2011 7:02 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 4:32 PM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com mailto:peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 18, 3:06 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 6:15 AM, 1Z

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-23 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 4:32 PM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 18, 3:06 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 6:15 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 18, 5:30 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Peter, Correct me if I am

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-23 Thread benjayk
1Z wrote: On Feb 18, 3:07 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 8:52 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 6:14 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjayk

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-23 Thread benjayk
1Z wrote: On Feb 18, 4:00 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 10:38 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: Brent Meeker-2 wrote: On 2/17/2011 12:27 PM, benjayk wrote: Brent Meeker-2 wrote: On 2/17/2011 10:14 AM, benjayk

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-23 Thread 1Z
On Feb 23, 4:10 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 18, 3:07 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 8:52 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 6:14 pm, benjayk

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-23 Thread 1Z
On Feb 23, 4:10 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: Then God does not exist as an actor in the world, but God does still exists as an idea.   1Z wrote: 1Z wrote: something existing or simply existence exists, if it is meaningful to use the word not,

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-23 Thread 1Z
On Feb 23, 3:02 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 4:32 PM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 18, 3:06 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 6:15 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 18, 5:30 am, Jason Resch

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-22 Thread 1Z
On Feb 18, 3:06 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 6:15 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 18, 5:30 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Peter, Correct me if I am wrong but I think we have established some things we agree on:

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-22 Thread 1Z
On Feb 18, 3:07 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 8:52 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 6:14 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjayk

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-22 Thread 1Z
On Feb 18, 4:00 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 10:38 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: Brent Meeker-2 wrote: On 2/17/2011 12:27 PM, benjayk wrote: Brent Meeker-2 wrote: On 2/17/2011 10:14 AM, benjayk wrote: 1Z wrote:

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-18 Thread 1Z
On Feb 17, 8:52 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 6:14 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: Comp will imply that such a primary matter

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-18 Thread 1Z
On Feb 18, 5:30 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Peter, Correct me if I am wrong but I think we have established some things we agree on: Consciousness is informational No There are more ways to have disorder than order Yes Bayesian reasoning is a good approach in matters

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-18 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 6:15 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 18, 5:30 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Peter, Correct me if I am wrong but I think we have established some things we agree on: Consciousness is informational No There are more ways to have

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-18 Thread benjayk
1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 8:52 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 6:14 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: Comp will imply that such a

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-18 Thread benjayk
1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 10:38 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: Brent Meeker-2 wrote: On 2/17/2011 12:27 PM, benjayk wrote: Brent Meeker-2 wrote: On 2/17/2011 10:14 AM, benjayk wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjaykbenjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com  

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-18 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/18/2011 7:06 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 6:15 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com mailto:peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 18, 5:30 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Peter, Correct me if I am wrong but I think

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-18 Thread Russell Standish
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 04:34:40PM -0800, 1Z wrote: I am quite entitled to reject MUH until is has been found. How will you know when it is found? Bruno or Tegmrark or somebody will announce it. I have already found it, announced it more than 10 years ago, and published it in a peer

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Feb 2011, at 22:36, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/16/2011 12:33 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: hat matter adds to a bundle of properties is existence. A non- existent bundle of properties is a mere concept, a mere possibility. Thus the concept of matter is very much tied to the idea of contingency

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread 1Z
On Feb 16, 10:58 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:41 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 16, 3:40 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 9:04 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 16, 8:27 am, Jason Resch

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread benjayk
1Z wrote: Comp will imply that such a primary matter cannnot interfer at all with your consciousness, so that IF comp is correct physics has to be reduced to number theory, and such a primary matter is an invisible epiphenomena. Physics cannot be eliminated in favour of non existent

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread 1Z
On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: Comp will imply that such a primary matter cannnot interfer at all with your consciousness, so that IF comp is correct physics has to be reduced to number theory, and such a primary matter is an invisible

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread benjayk
1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: Comp will imply that such a primary matter cannnot interfer at all with your consciousness, so that IF comp is correct physics has to be reduced to number theory, and such a primary matter

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/17/2011 10:14 AM, benjayk wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjaykbenjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: Comp will imply that such a primary matter cannnot interfer at all with your consciousness, so that IF comp is correct physics has to

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread 1Z
On Feb 17, 6:14 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: Comp will imply that such a primary matter cannnot interfer at all with your consciousness, so that IF comp is correct physics

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread benjayk
Brent Meeker-2 wrote: On 2/17/2011 10:14 AM, benjayk wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjaykbenjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: Comp will imply that such a primary matter cannnot interfer at all with your consciousness, so that IF comp is

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread benjayk
1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 6:14 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: Comp will imply that such a primary matter cannnot interfer at all with your consciousness, so that IF comp is

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/17/2011 12:27 PM, benjayk wrote: Brent Meeker-2 wrote: On 2/17/2011 10:14 AM, benjayk wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjaykbenjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: Comp will imply that such a primary matter cannnot interfer

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 9:06 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 16, 10:58 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:41 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 16, 3:40 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 9:04

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread benjayk
Brent Meeker-2 wrote: On 2/17/2011 12:27 PM, benjayk wrote: Brent Meeker-2 wrote: On 2/17/2011 10:14 AM, benjayk wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjaykbenjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: 1Z wrote: Comp will imply that such a

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread 1Z
On Feb 17, 10:25 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 9:06 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 16, 10:58 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:41 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 16, 3:40 pm, Jason Resch

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread 1Z
On Feb 17, 10:38 pm, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: Brent Meeker-2 wrote: On 2/17/2011 12:27 PM, benjayk wrote: Brent Meeker-2 wrote: On 2/17/2011 10:14 AM, benjayk wrote: 1Z wrote: On Feb 17, 3:10 pm, benjaykbenjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com   wrote: 1Z wrote:

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-17 Thread Jason Resch
Peter, Correct me if I am wrong but I think we have established some things we agree on: Consciousness is informational There are more ways to have disorder than order Bayesian reasoning is a good approach in matters of truth The universe could be a second old, and we would have no way of

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:19 PM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 15, 10:12 pm, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/15/2011 1:48 PM, 1Z wrote: I agree. Although it's interesting that some people with synasthesia apparently perceive numbers as having various

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Feb 2011, at 20:22, 1Z wrote: I want to say number aren't real, so I'm not really a number All your talk about numbers which are not real seems to me nonsensical. Also you seems to know what is real and what is not real, Sure. Horses are real and unicorns aren't. Didn't you know

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Feb 2011, at 20:25, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 6:13 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 18:16, 1Z wrote: In science we never know if our premisses and conclusions are true or not. I can still resist the conclusion by *believing* Platonism to be false, while

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-16 Thread 1Z
On Feb 16, 8:27 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:19 PM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 15, 10:12 pm, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/15/2011 1:48 PM, 1Z wrote: I agree.  Although it's interesting that some people with

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-16 Thread 1Z
On Feb 16, 8:46 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 20:22, 1Z wrote: I want to say number aren't real, so I'm not really a number All your talk about numbers which are not real seems to me nonsensical. Also you seems to know what is real and what is not

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 9:04 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 16, 8:27 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:19 PM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 15, 10:12 pm, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/15/2011 1:48 PM, 1Z

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Feb 2011, at 16:17, 1Z wrote: On Feb 16, 8:46 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 20:22, 1Z wrote: I want to say number aren't real, so I'm not really a number All your talk about numbers which are not real seems to me nonsensical. Also you seems to

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-16 Thread 1Z
On Feb 16, 3:40 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 9:04 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 16, 8:27 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:19 PM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 15, 10:12 pm, Brent Meeker

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-16 Thread 1Z
On Feb 16, 5:10 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Feb 2011, at 16:17, 1Z wrote: On Feb 16, 8:46 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 20:22, 1Z wrote: I want to say number aren't real, so I'm not really a number All your talk about numbers

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Feb 2011, at 18:41, 1Z wrote: On Feb 16, 3:40 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 9:04 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 16, 8:27 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:19 PM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote:

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-16 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/16/2011 12:33 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: hat matter adds to a bundle of properties is existence. A non- existent bundle of properties is a mere concept, a mere possibility. Thus the concept of matter is very much tied to the idea of contingency or somethingism -- the idea that only certain

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:41 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 16, 3:40 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 9:04 AM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 16, 8:27 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:19 PM,

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-16 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/14/2011 4:12 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/13/2011 11:24 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Feb 2011, at 18:46, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/14/2011 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 07:13, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/13/2011 5:21 AM, 1Z wrote: On Feb 12, 3:18 am, Brent

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread David Nyman
On 15 February 2011 00:42, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: I've tried to argue before that the causal closure of physics is a very strong claim that is also very restrictive if applied consistently.  Trouble is, in my view, it very rarely is so applied. The Hard Problem, and the corresponding

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Feb 2011, at 19:53, 1Z wrote: CT needs arithmetical platonism/realism. No it doesn't. It may need bivalence, which is not the same thing (me, passim) Reread the definition of AR. I define AR by bivalence. If you believe the contrary, could you give me a form of CT which does not

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Feb 2011, at 20:05, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 2:52 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 13:35, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 8:47 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do you believe that Goldbach conjecture is either true or false? If you agree with this, then

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread David Nyman
On 15 February 2011 13:27, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I am  not a realist about maths. You must be because you exist and you think you are a  number I start from the assumption that I can survive through a digital backup. So locally I am a number, in that sense. But this concerns

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread 1Z
On Feb 15, 12:56 pm, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 15 February 2011 00:42, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: I've tried to argue before that the causal closure of physics is a very strong claim that is also very restrictive if applied consistently.  Trouble is, in my view, it

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread 1Z
On Feb 15, 1:16 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 19:53, 1Z wrote: CT needs arithmetical platonism/realism. No it doesn't. It may need bivalence, which is not the same thing (me, passim) Reread the definition of AR. I define AR by bivalence. Fine. Then it

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread 1Z
On Feb 15, 1:27 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 20:05, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 2:52 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 13:35, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 8:47 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do you believe that Goldbach

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread 1Z
On Feb 15, 1:54 pm, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 15 February 2011 13:27, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I am  not a realist about maths. You must be because you exist and you think you are a  number I start from the assumption that I can survive through a digital

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Feb 2011, at 01:42, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/14/2011 11:36 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Programs are not written with physical instantiation in mind... even if eventually you run it. Really? Did people write programs before computers were invented? If you abstract from Babbage

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Feb 2011, at 16:09, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 1:16 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 19:53, 1Z wrote: CT needs arithmetical platonism/realism. No it doesn't. It may need bivalence, which is not the same thing (me, passim) Reread the definition of AR. I

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Feb 2011, at 16:23, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 1:27 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 20:05, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 2:52 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 13:35, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 8:47 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread 1Z
On Feb 15, 4:51 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 16:23, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 1:27 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 20:05, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 2:52 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 13:35, 1Z

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Feb 2011, at 18:16, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 4:51 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 16:23, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 1:27 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 20:05, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 2:52 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread 1Z
On Feb 15, 6:13 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 18:16, 1Z wrote: In science we never know if our premisses and conclusions are   true or not. I can still resist the conclusion by *believing* Platonism to be false, while believing comp to be true.

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2011/2/15 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com On Feb 15, 6:13 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 18:16, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 4:51 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 16:23, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 1:27 pm, Bruno Marchal

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread 1Z
On Feb 15, 6:13 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 18:16, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 4:51 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 16:23, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 1:27 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 20:05, 1Z

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/15/2011 11:28 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2011/2/15 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com mailto:peterdjo...@yahoo.com On Feb 15, 6:13 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 18:16, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 4:51

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2011/2/15 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com On 2/15/2011 11:28 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2011/2/15 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com On Feb 15, 6:13 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 18:16, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 4:51 pm, Bruno Marchal

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/15/2011 12:28 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2011/2/15 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com On 2/15/2011 11:28 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2011/2/15 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com mailto:peterdjo...@yahoo.com On Feb 15, 6:13 pm, Bruno Marchal

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread 1Z
On Feb 15, 8:39 pm, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/15/2011 12:28 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2011/2/15 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com     On 2/15/2011 11:28 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:     2011/2/15 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread 1Z
On Feb 15, 7:28 pm, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/2/15 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com On Feb 15, 6:13 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 18:16, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 4:51 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Feb 2011, at 16:23,

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/15/2011 1:01 PM, 1Z wrote: The difference is I can choose what are/who are/the behavior of... Sherlock holmes/pink unicorn/whatever... not the numbers once an axiomatic system is chosen. No, it's only a difference of degree. You can't choose Sherlock Holmes to be an

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread 1Z
On Feb 15, 9:22 pm, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote:  Whatever question you can ask about a number has a factual answer, although you may not know it or how to find it...numbers are wholly defined by a set of axioms, it seems that they are more real than fictional characters.

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/15/2011 1:48 PM, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 9:22 pm, Brent Meekermeeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: Whatever question you can ask about a number has a factual answer, although you may not know it or how to find it...numbers are wholly defined by a set of axioms, it seems that

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-15 Thread 1Z
On Feb 15, 10:12 pm, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/15/2011 1:48 PM, 1Z wrote: On Feb 15, 9:22 pm, Brent Meekermeeke...@dslextreme.com  wrote:     Whatever question you can ask about a number has a factual answer, although you may not know it or how to find

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Feb 2011, at 07:13, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/13/2011 5:21 AM, 1Z wrote: On Feb 12, 3:18 am, Brent Meekermeeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: What do you think the chances are that any random object in Plato's

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Feb 2011, at 19:10, 1Z wrote: On Feb 10, 1:24 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Feb 2011, at 16:49, 1Z wrote: On Feb 8, 6:17 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 Feb 2011, at 23:58, 1Z wrote: On Feb 7, 6:29 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 6:50 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote:  Perhaps humans are merely severely disabled when it comes to seeing and feeling the mathematical reality and our deficit in seeing this reality is much the same as an ant's poor vision prevents it from making out a mountain vista.  

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 7:24 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote:  On 2/13/2011 10:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote: On 2/13/2011 5:21 AM, 1Z

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 8:47 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do you believe that Goldbach conjecture is either true or false? If you agree with this, then you accept arithmetical realism, which is enough for the comp consequences., Nope. Bivalence can be accepted as a formal rule and therefore

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Feb 2011, at 13:35, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 8:47 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do you believe that Goldbach conjecture is either true or false? If you agree with this, then you accept arithmetical realism, which is enough for the comp consequences., Nope. Bivalence can be

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Feb 2011, at 12:13, 1Z wrote: Thing that aren't real can't have real properties, but hypothetical things have hypothetical properties You talk like if you knew what is real. Do you agree that the existence of primary matter can only be an hypothesis? A useful simplifying

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/13/2011 11:24 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/13/2011 10:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/14/2011 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 07:13, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/13/2011 5:21 AM, 1Z wrote: On Feb 12, 3:18 am, Brent

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread David Nyman
On 14 February 2011 12:35, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: Oh come on. How can you say that after I just told you 7 doesn't exist. Wouldn't this then imply that computation also doesn't exist, in an analogous sense? And that consequently any computational characterisation of the mental is in

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 10:16 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 11 Feb 2011, at 19:10, 1Z wrote: On Feb 10, 1:24 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Feb 2011, at 16:49, 1Z wrote: On Feb 8, 6:17 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 Feb 2011, at 23:58, 1Z

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 2:52 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 13:35, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 8:47 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do you believe that Goldbach conjecture is either true or false? If you agree with this, then you accept arithmetical realism, which

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 2:56 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 12:13, 1Z wrote: Thing that aren't real can't have  real properties, but hypothetical things have hypothetical properties You talk like if you knew what is real. I only have to know what real means. Do you

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2011/2/14 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com On Feb 14, 2:52 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 13:35, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 8:47 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do you believe that Goldbach conjecture is either true or false? If you agree with this,

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 6:21 pm, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 14 February 2011 12:35, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: Oh come on. How can you say that after I just told you 7 doesn't exist. Wouldn't this then imply that computation also doesn't exist, in an analogous sense? I can

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2011/2/14 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com On Feb 14, 6:21 pm, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 14 February 2011 12:35, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: Oh come on. How can you say that after I just told you 7 doesn't exist. Wouldn't this then imply that computation also doesn't

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread David Nyman
On 14 February 2011 19:32, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: If you have a physical token running a computation, you have a computation. What is eliminated? But such talk is all a posteriori and hence merely circular. A priori, if you claim that reality can be reduced to (i.e. actually

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread John Mikes
David, I was laughing all the way from the computer that '7 does not exist'. And yes, it does not. Do qualia exist without the substrate they serve for as qualia? It goes into our deeper thought to identify 'existing' - I am willing to go as far as if our mind handles it, 'it' DOES exist so the

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread David Nyman
On 14 February 2011 20:46, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: I asked several times: what are numbers? without getting a reasonable reply. Sometimes I really like 1Z's twists. That may be, but I would also like to see if we can get things untwisted. I'm not peddling any theory of my own

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Jason Resch
On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote: On 2/13/2011 11:24 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote: On 2/13/2011 10:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 8:07 pm, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 14 February 2011 19:32, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: If you have a physical token running a computation, you have a computation. What is eliminated? But such talk is all a posteriori and hence merely circular. That the

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 11:08 pm, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 14 February 2011 20:46, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: I asked several times: what are numbers? without getting a reasonable reply. Sometimes I really like 1Z's twists. That may be, but I would also like to see if we

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/14/2011 11:36 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Programs are not written with physical instantiation in mind... even if eventually you run it. Really? Did people write programs before computers were invented? What is important is the computation which doesn't care about the physical

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 15, 12:12 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote:  On 2/13/2011 11:24 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote:  On 2/13/2011 10:13 PM,

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-13 Thread 1Z
On Feb 12, 3:18 am, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: What do you think the chances are that any random object in Plato's heaven, or any random Turing machine will support intelligent life? 1 in 10, 1 in 1000, 1 in a billion? Zero. Does that allow us to argue: 1) A

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-13 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/13/2011 5:21 AM, 1Z wrote: On Feb 12, 3:18 am, Brent Meekermeeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: What do you think the chances are that any random object in Plato's heaven, or any random Turing machine will support intelligent life? 1 in 10, 1 in 1000, 1 in a billion? Zero.

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-13 Thread Jason Resch
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote: On 2/13/2011 5:21 AM, 1Z wrote: On Feb 12, 3:18 am, Brent Meekermeeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: What do you think the chances are that any random object in Plato's heaven, or any random Turing machine will

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-13 Thread Jason Resch
On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 7:46 PM, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Feb 12, 9:05 am, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/2/12 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com On Feb 11, 11:50 pm, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/2/11 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com On Feb

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-13 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/13/2011 10:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/13/2011 5:21 AM, 1Z wrote: On Feb 12, 3:18 am, Brent Meekermeeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com

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