Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
not be just machines. Man-made machines may be just machines. Craig wrb From: everyth...@googlegroups.com [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 5:24 AM To: everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Mar 2013, at 00:03, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/5/2013 3:03 PM, William R. Buckley wrote: Craig, You build an automaton, place it and turn it on, and from that point in time forward the automaton reacts to acceptable information all on its own. You contradict yourself – - I

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
machines. Craig wrb *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg *Sent:* Tuesday, March 05, 2013 5:24 AM *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 2

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
. Craig wrb *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg *Sent:* Tuesday, March 05, 2013 7:34 PM *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:48:19 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: Craig: The mistake you make is clearly stated in your words: “…doesn’t mean that they communicated with judgment.” You

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 7, 2013 1:39:25 AM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: I have before claimed that the computer is a good example of the power of semiosis. It is simple enough to see that the mere construction of a Turing machine confers upon that machine the ability to recognise all

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread William R. Buckley
: Thursday, March 07, 2013 8:05 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Thursday, March 7, 2013 6:55:25 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Mar 2013, at 19:14, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 12:03:28 PM UTC-5, William R

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread William R. Buckley
, March 07, 2013 8:10 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 10:55:31 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: The falling tree makes sound, the wind make sound, the . makes sound regardless of your presence (or the presence

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread William R. Buckley
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 12:09:28 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: Now we are getting some place. Exactly. There is simply action. Contexts react to sign. They react to their interpretations

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
: [mailto: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg *Sent:* Thursday, March 07, 2013 8:05 AM *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Thursday, March 7, 2013 6:55:25 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread William R. Buckley
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 8:33 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Thursday, March 7, 2013 1:39:25 AM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: I have before claimed that the computer is a good example of the power of semiosis. It is simple

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread William R. Buckley
: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Thursday, March 7, 2013 12:21:57 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: Craig: When you say that interpretation is consciousness you contradict your prior statements regarding semiosis, that acceptance and action are not value. I'm not sure

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
*From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg *Sent:* Thursday, March 07, 2013 8:17 AM *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Wednesday, March 6

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread William R. Buckley
The context takes all action, to include the action of doing nothing at all. Once the signal is given by the transmitter, then sure it is up to the receiver of the signal to interpret it. How the transmitter formats the signal will influence the receiver's reception and interpretation

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 7, 2013 12:56:01 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: The context takes all action, to include the action of doing nothing at all. Once the signal is given by the transmitter, then sure it is up to the receiver of the signal to interpret it. How the transmitter

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-06 Thread Craig Weinberg
...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:07:00 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: The fact that a machine can act in a discriminatory based upon some signal (sign, information) input is demonstration of value

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-06 Thread William R. Buckley
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 4:12 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:48:19 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: Craig: The mistake you make is clearly stated in your words: “…doesn’t mean

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-06 Thread William R. Buckley
@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 4:12 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:48:19 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: Craig

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-06 Thread William R. Buckley
I have before claimed that the computer is a good example of the power of semiosis. It is simple enough to see that the mere construction of a Turing machine confers upon that machine the ability to recognise all computations; to generate the yield of such computations. In this sense, a

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Let´s say that what we call information is an extended form of sensory input. What makes this input information is the usability of this input for reducing the internal entropy of the receiver or increase the internal order. The receiver can be a machine, a cell, a person or a society for example.

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 2:06:20 AM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: There is information (I take information to be a manifestation of entropy) and it is always represented in the form of a pattern (a distribution) of the units of mass/energy of which the Universe is composed. I can

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread William R. Buckley
@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 5:24 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 2:06:20 AM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: There is information (I

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
: *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 2:06:20 AM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: There is information (I take information to be a manifestation of entropy) and it is always represented in the form of a pattern (a distribution) of the units of mass

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:53:31 AM UTC-5, Alberto G.Corona wrote: Let´s say that what we call information is an extended form of sensory input. What makes this input information is the usability of this input for reducing the internal entropy of the receiver or increase the internal

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread William R. Buckley
-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:14 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 12:03:28 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: Craig

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread William R. Buckley
forms in certain proscribed ways. You cannot demonstrate otherwise. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:37 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
as a machine in many ways. Craig wrb *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg *Sent:* Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:14 AM *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread John Mikes
Dear Bil B. you probably have thought in these lines during similar long periods as I did. It was ~2 decades ago when I defined i n f o r m a t i o n as something with (at least) 2 ends: 1. the notion (in whatever format it shows up) - and 2. the acceptor (adjusting the notion in whatever

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread William R. Buckley
PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:03:31 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: Craig, You build an automaton, place it and turn it on, and from that point in time forward the automaton reacts to acceptable

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
javascript: [mailto: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg *Sent:* Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:37 AM *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:53:31 AM UTC-5, Alberto G.Corona

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 4:19:31 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: The machine is informed. Trivially, yes, but information is all about multiple levels. My mailbox could be informed when it receives mail - but that's just a figure of speech. No machine is ever literally or richly

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread William R. Buckley
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 1:27 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:07:00 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: The fact that a machine can act

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread William R. Buckley
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 1:13 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information Dear Bil B. you probably have thought in these lines during similar

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/5/2013 3:03 PM, William R. Buckley wrote: Craig, You build an automaton, place it and turn it on, and from that point in time forward the automaton reacts to acceptable information all on its own. You contradict yourself -- - I don't think it has to be human -- machines only help

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
javascript: *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information Dear Bil B. you probably have thought in these lines during similar long periods as I did. It was ~2 decades ago when I defined i n f o r m a t i o n as something with (at least) 2 ends: 1. the notion (in whatever format

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-05 Thread William R. Buckley
Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 7:34 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:52:32 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: I do not hold that the acceptor must exist, for then I am making a value judgment

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-04 Thread William R. Buckley
There is information (I take information to be a manifestation of entropy) and it is always represented in the form of a pattern (a distribution) of the units of mass/energy of which the Universe is composed. I think that semiotic signs are simply specific bits of information; I will use the

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-02 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 1, 2013 8:27:54 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: Thinking about how information content of a message Big mistake. Information is never contained with but exactly one exception, an envelope. I was intentionally starting out from the common assumption that messages

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-02 Thread Craig Weinberg
javascript: Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On 3/1/2013 5:27 PM, William R. Buckley wrote: Thinking about how information content of a message Big mistake. Information is never contained with but exactly one exception, an envelope. I made this point

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-02 Thread William R. Buckley
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 6:02 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Saturday, March 2, 2013 12:37:15 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-02 Thread Craig Weinberg
: Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Saturday, March 2, 2013 12:37:15 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/1/2013 8:39 PM, William R. Buckley wrote: And therein do you see the arbitrariness of either choice. The universe is subjective, not objective. Is that just your opinion

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-02 Thread William R. Buckley
snip I can use a phonetic transliteration to recite an Arabic prayer without even knowing what words are being spoken, let alone the meaning of those words. If your argument is that you have no knowledge of what you are doing, of the sounds you make in recitation, then you have

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-02 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, March 2, 2013 3:59:14 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: snip I can use a phonetic transliteration to recite an Arabic prayer without even knowing what words are being spoken, let alone the meaning of those words. If your argument is that you have no knowledge of

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-02 Thread William R. Buckley
of that transmission. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 1:50 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Saturday, March 2, 2013 3:59:14 PM UTC

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-02 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, March 2, 2013 6:40:44 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: Craig: The truth of your statement is no reply to my claim, that how another receiver of signs responds is irrelevant to your knowledge, save the one case of conveyance of knowledge between semiotic units; where

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-02 Thread William R. Buckley
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 4:48 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Saturday, March 2, 2013 6:40:44 PM UTC-5, William R

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-01 Thread William R. Buckley
Thinking about how information content of a message Big mistake. Information is never contained with but exactly one exception, an envelope. I made this point with Jesper Hoffmeyer regarding a statement in his book Biosemiotics, that information is represented but not contained in that

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
On 3/1/2013 5:27 PM, William R. Buckley wrote: Thinking about how information content of a message Big mistake. Information is never contained with but exactly one exception, an envelope. I made this point with Jesper Hoffmeyer regarding a statement in his book Biosemiotics, that information

RE: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-01 Thread William R. Buckley
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On 3/1/2013 5:27 PM, William R. Buckley wrote: Thinking about how information content of a message Big mistake. Information is never contained with but exactly one exception, an envelope. I made

Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

2013-03-01 Thread meekerdb
as a 'geological specimen'. Brent wrb -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything- l...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 7:11 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On 3/1