Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-20 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 11:07 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
 Telmo wrote:

 I agree. But sometimes we're lazy.
 My worry is always the same: the energy budget necessary to drill the
 holes and maintain the infrastructure compared to the yield. I'm not
 saying this isn't a good idea, just that this analysis in necessary to
 make it convincing. I would be glad to be convinced and then I would
 like to have enough money to invest in your company :) Best,
 Telmo.
 No plans, no company, with going 92.  BUT... there is my (agnostic)
 objection to the analysis you mention. I did a lot within polymer science
 and technology: always restricted to the already knownw factors and data.
 Then: new info shows up and the stock market goes belly up.
 Anticipation and analysis cannot invent the unknowable future.
 Take a risk and be lucky! (That's how I made my patents).

Oh I agree with this. I mention the analysis in the context of what
already exists, not as something that should discourage us from trying
new things.

Telmo.

 John M



 On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
 wrote:

 On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 11:41 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
  Dear Telmo, oil wells went down deeper than previously estimated as
  feasible. Techniques are evolving.
  If 2, 0r 5 pipes are inadequate in transport capacity, use more. Ask the
  engineers - I also claim ignorance.
  the geological temperature vertical map is varying according to a lot of
  factors.
  Ignorance is not a good argument for not considering (and asking).

 I agree. But sometimes we're lazy.
 My worry is always the same: the energy budget necessary to drill the
 holes and maintain the infrastructure compared to the yield. I'm not
 saying this isn't a good idea, just that this analysis in necessary to
 make it convincing. I would be glad to be convinced and then I would
 like to have enough money to invest in your company :)

 Best,
 Telmo.

  John
 
 
  On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
  wrote:
 
  Hi John,
 
  On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 9:33 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
   Telmo:
   unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it
   is
   a
   convoluted - I could say:
   inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface
   utilization.
   SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface?
   Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as
   needed
   TODAY and we
   will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell.
   So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his
   OWN
   pipe.
   Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down
   for
   OIL, similar - if a bit
   longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE
   for
   pumping DOWN the
   ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C
   environment,
   the
   OTHER to ascend
   the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in
   NZ.
 
  Sorry, I didn't comment out of ignorance. The idea sounds very
  attractive.
  What about depth? Is the necessary depth similar to oil extraction?
  And what about yield? How many of these pipes would we need to replace
  the energy output of a typical oil rig? Is it scalable?
 
  Cheers,
  Telmo.
 
   JOhn Mikes
  
  
   On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
  
   On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
  
   Telmo and other 'experts':
   why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available
   in
   huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial'
   usage.
   The
   high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the
   exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's
   needs, so
   it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing
   technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water
   becomes
   scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping
   politicians
   in
   asylum, etc.) .
  
  
   I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but
   doesn't
   provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.
  
   It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would
   say
   solar is more readily available overall.
  
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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-19 Thread John Mikes
Telmo wrote:







*I agree. But sometimes we're lazy.My worry is always the same: the energy
budget necessary to drill theholes and maintain the infrastructure compared
to the yield. I'm notsaying this isn't a good idea, just that this analysis
in necessary tomake it convincing. I would be glad to be convinced and then
I wouldlike to have enough money to invest in your company :) Best,Telmo.*
No plans, no company, with going 92.  BUT... there is my (agnostic)
objection to the analysis you mention. I did a lot within polymer science
and technology: always restricted to the already knownw factors and data.
Then: new info shows up and the stock market goes belly up.
Anticipation and analysis cannot invent the unknowable future.
Take a risk and be lucky! (That's how I made my patents).

John M



On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote:

 On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 11:41 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
  Dear Telmo, oil wells went down deeper than previously estimated as
  feasible. Techniques are evolving.
  If 2, 0r 5 pipes are inadequate in transport capacity, use more. Ask the
  engineers - I also claim ignorance.
  the geological temperature vertical map is varying according to a lot of
  factors.
  Ignorance is not a good argument for not considering (and asking).

 I agree. But sometimes we're lazy.
 My worry is always the same: the energy budget necessary to drill the
 holes and maintain the infrastructure compared to the yield. I'm not
 saying this isn't a good idea, just that this analysis in necessary to
 make it convincing. I would be glad to be convinced and then I would
 like to have enough money to invest in your company :)

 Best,
 Telmo.

  John
 
 
  On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
  wrote:
 
  Hi John,
 
  On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 9:33 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
   Telmo:
   unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it
 is
   a
   convoluted - I could say:
   inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface
   utilization.
   SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface?
   Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as
   needed
   TODAY and we
   will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell.
   So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his
 OWN
   pipe.
   Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down
   for
   OIL, similar - if a bit
   longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for
   pumping DOWN the
   ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment,
   the
   OTHER to ascend
   the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in
 NZ.
 
  Sorry, I didn't comment out of ignorance. The idea sounds very
 attractive.
  What about depth? Is the necessary depth similar to oil extraction?
  And what about yield? How many of these pipes would we need to replace
  the energy output of a typical oil rig? Is it scalable?
 
  Cheers,
  Telmo.
 
   JOhn Mikes
  
  
   On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
  
   On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
  
   Telmo and other 'experts':
   why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available
 in
   huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage.
   The
   high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the
   exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's
   needs, so
   it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing
   technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water
   becomes
   scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping
 politicians
   in
   asylum, etc.) .
  
  
   I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but
   doesn't
   provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.
  
   It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say
   solar is more readily available overall.
  
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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-18 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 11:41 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
 Dear Telmo, oil wells went down deeper than previously estimated as
 feasible. Techniques are evolving.
 If 2, 0r 5 pipes are inadequate in transport capacity, use more. Ask the
 engineers - I also claim ignorance.
 the geological temperature vertical map is varying according to a lot of
 factors.
 Ignorance is not a good argument for not considering (and asking).

I agree. But sometimes we're lazy.
My worry is always the same: the energy budget necessary to drill the
holes and maintain the infrastructure compared to the yield. I'm not
saying this isn't a good idea, just that this analysis in necessary to
make it convincing. I would be glad to be convinced and then I would
like to have enough money to invest in your company :)

Best,
Telmo.

 John


 On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
 wrote:

 Hi John,

 On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 9:33 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
  Telmo:
  unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is
  a
  convoluted - I could say:
  inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface
  utilization.
  SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface?
  Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as
  needed
  TODAY and we
  will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell.
  So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN
  pipe.
  Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down
  for
  OIL, similar - if a bit
  longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for
  pumping DOWN the
  ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment,
  the
  OTHER to ascend
  the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ.

 Sorry, I didn't comment out of ignorance. The idea sounds very attractive.
 What about depth? Is the necessary depth similar to oil extraction?
 And what about yield? How many of these pipes would we need to replace
 the energy output of a typical oil rig? Is it scalable?

 Cheers,
 Telmo.

  JOhn Mikes
 
 
  On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Telmo and other 'experts':
  why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in
  huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage.
  The
  high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the
  exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's
  needs, so
  it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing
  technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water
  becomes
  scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians
  in
  asylum, etc.) .
 
 
  I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but
  doesn't
  provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.
 
  It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say
  solar is more readily available overall.
 
  --
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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-17 Thread meekerdb

On 11/16/2013 12:51 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:
Dry rock geothermal certainly does have a big upside potential -- there is a whole lot 
of heat just a few miles below the ground, but it is not as easy or simple as you seem 
to think it is. For example in a lot of dry areas water supply becomes a gating factor 
that puts a limit on scalability -- this also applies to Canadian tar sands and shale 
gas plays -- water requirements will place a limit on how much it can scale; on the 
maximum annual rates of extraction that can be achieved. 


Water use is also, or should be, a limiting factor on fracking for oil 
extraction.

Brent

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RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-17 Thread Chris de Morsella
 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 11:43 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

On 11/16/2013 12:51 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:

Dry rock geothermal certainly does have a big upside potential - there is a
whole lot of heat just a few miles below the ground, but it is not as easy
or simple as you seem to think it is. For example in a lot of dry areas
water supply becomes a gating factor that puts a limit on scalability - this
also applies to Canadian tar sands and shale gas plays - water requirements
will place a limit on how much it can scale; on the maximum annual rates of
extraction that can be achieved. 


Water use is also, or should be, a limiting factor on fracking for oil
extraction.

 

Yes it is and it should be factored into the projections. Drillers are
discovering that the fracked reservoirs they engineer - by hydraulic
fracturing -- to extract the oil (or gas) need to be re-fracked in just a
few years because of buildup of salt and other deposits in the
micro-fissures. requiring yet more water.

Chris

Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-17 Thread John Mikes
Chris: you said it. I did not refer to hydraulic fracturing' or injecting
(anything) INTO THE ROCK. I am talking about
EXTRACTING  H E A T  only, in a CLOSED system. The carrying water must not
touch the surrounding 'reservoir', must stay
inside the well-system, in which it heats up for ascending to the surface.
There is NO 'second well, the process goes in ONE.
In and out.
Your last par explains exactly the difference. Accordingly the ascending
steam is NOT corrosive, the reason for using highly de-ionized (ultra-pure)
water to inject into the hot zone INSIDE THE DEVICE.


On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote:

 John – The term reservoir has a well understood usage, when speaking about
 hydraulic fracturing, to describe the engineered rock volume that is filled
 by micro-fissures, created by injecting water under immense pressure into
 the rock, at the well head.

 The injected slurry contains poppants. Poppants are either sand or
 engineered small ceramic beads. It is this gritty material that maintains
 the micro-fissures and allows for the creation of a three dimensional
 volume – i.e. the reservoir – in which water can be injected and absorb
 heat from the rock volume that has been exposed – a much vaster surface
 area – by the hydraulic fracking.

 I am using the term reservoir very correctly – in the terms that it is
 used when speaking of hydraulic fracturing. Eventually the engineered rock
 volume that has been created by this process of fracking begins to reseal
 (the overburden is immense and squeezes the micro-fissures shut over time).
 In addition the engineered reservoir – in the specific sense that this term
 is used when speaking about hydraulic fracturing – will over time become
 depleted as heat is removed from it. Eventually that volume of rock will
 get hot again, but by the time it does the engineered micro-fissures will
 have been squeezed shut and the reservoir will have to be re-fracked.

 Water is injected into this reservoir, where it is turned into hot high
 pressure steam that comes up the second well. This steam is far too
 corrosive laden with minerals to use directly and must instead be used to
 boil the actual water, whose high pressure steam will transfer energy into
 the spinning turbine. If you used the steam from the well head you would be
 replacing turbines every year or two.

 Chris



 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John Mikes
 *Sent:* Saturday, November 16, 2013 2:49 PM

 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World



 Chris: if you utter reservoir - you are on the wrong track. Nothing must
 COME OUT from the depth.

 Not even what YOU pumped in into open plenum. (My objection against the NZ
 plant).

 In Hungary in the 1950s a 'hot spring well' was tried to bring out 'heat'
 by its own pressure. By the time

 it reached the surface cooling a bit (and expanded(!) from the pressure)
 the  M U D  solidified into a hot mass. There was no private enterprise in
 commi Hungary at that time, so the idea was scrapped.

 John M



 On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
 wrote:





 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John Mikes
 *Sent:* Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:33 PM


 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World



 Telmo:

 unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a
 convoluted - I could say:

 inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface
 utilization.

 SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface?

 Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as
 needed TODAY and we

 will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell.

 So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN
 pipe.

 Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for
 OIL, similar - if a bit

 longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for
 pumping DOWN the

 ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the
 OTHER to ascend

 the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ.

 JOhn Mikes



 If it were that easy…. Dry rock geothermal requires amongst other things
 large amounts of fresh water for hydraulic fracturing of the reservoir.
 This process needs to be repeated periodically as the reservoirs reseal up
 over a period of years (as is being experienced by the shale oil fracked
 wells) and in the case of dry rock geothermal when the heat reservoir
 becomes drawn down. The hot steam that comes out of the wells is too laden
 with minerals and salts to be used directly and it thus requires a duel
 loop system in which the primary loop boils water in a boiler to produce
 clean steam that is passed through the generators

RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-17 Thread Chris de Morsella
How exactly then is the heat exchanged. Heat exchangers work by exposing a
large surface area in which to transfer heat from the source into the
working fluid or conversely from the  working fluid into the heat sink if
heat is being pumped in the opposite direction.

If you do not accomplish creating this vast surface area - which is required
in order to exchange heat - by fracking and filling the engineered fissures
with water that picks up heat and becomes steam. How do you do it?

You cannot just drill a well down into some hot rock then circulate water
through it and expect to pick up very much heat at all. Without fracking the
only way that this could be accomplished would be to physically drill a very
large network of capillary wells in order to engineer the required surface
area needed in order to have an effective heat exchanger.

All the dry hot rock geothermal I have ever heard about uses fracking in
order to engineer this volume of micro-fissures within a region of hot rock
to turn that into a heat exchanger. Without all these micro-fissures there
is no way to effectively transfer large amounts of heat into the working
fluid.

Drilling the thousands of miles of capillary heat exchange pipes - it sounds
like you are envisioning - would present an exorbitant cost. If this is not
what you are proposing then how do you propose the heat - on a massive scale
- will be transferred into the distilled water?

Chris

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 12:15 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

Chris: you said it. I did not refer to hydraulic fracturing' or injecting
(anything) INTO THE ROCK. I am talking about 

EXTRACTING  H E A T  only, in a CLOSED system. The carrying water must not
touch the surrounding 'reservoir', must stay

inside the well-system, in which it heats up for ascending to the surface.
There is NO 'second well, the process goes in ONE. 

In and out. 

Your last par explains exactly the difference. Accordingly the ascending
steam is NOT corrosive, the reason for using highly de-ionized (ultra-pure)
water to inject into the hot zone INSIDE THE DEVICE. 

 

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
wrote:

John - The term reservoir has a well understood usage, when speaking about
hydraulic fracturing, to describe the engineered rock volume that is filled
by micro-fissures, created by injecting water under immense pressure into
the rock, at the well head. 

The injected slurry contains poppants. Poppants are either sand or
engineered small ceramic beads. It is this gritty material that maintains
the micro-fissures and allows for the creation of a three dimensional volume
- i.e. the reservoir - in which water can be injected and absorb heat from
the rock volume that has been exposed - a much vaster surface area - by the
hydraulic fracking.

I am using the term reservoir very correctly - in the terms that it is used
when speaking of hydraulic fracturing. Eventually the engineered rock volume
that has been created by this process of fracking begins to reseal (the
overburden is immense and squeezes the micro-fissures shut over time). In
addition the engineered reservoir - in the specific sense that this term is
used when speaking about hydraulic fracturing - will over time become
depleted as heat is removed from it. Eventually that volume of rock will get
hot again, but by the time it does the engineered micro-fissures will have
been squeezed shut and the reservoir will have to be re-fracked.

Water is injected into this reservoir, where it is turned into hot high
pressure steam that comes up the second well. This steam is far too
corrosive laden with minerals to use directly and must instead be used to
boil the actual water, whose high pressure steam will transfer energy into
the spinning turbine. If you used the steam from the well head you would be
replacing turbines every year or two.

Chris

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 2:49 PM


To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

Chris: if you utter reservoir - you are on the wrong track. Nothing must
COME OUT from the depth.

Not even what YOU pumped in into open plenum. (My objection against the NZ
plant). 

In Hungary in the 1950s a 'hot spring well' was tried to bring out 'heat' by
its own pressure. By the time 

it reached the surface cooling a bit (and expanded(!) from the pressure) the
M U D  solidified into a hot mass. There was no private enterprise in commi
Hungary at that time, so the idea was scrapped. 

John M

 

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
wrote:

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes
Sent

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-17 Thread LizR
Well, those PV panels are of course using a handy fusion reactor.

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-16 Thread spudboy100

Ok, but I am not hostile at all to geothermal, especially if these quakes are 
very minor ones. This is also true, for me, with fracking nat gas. I am real ok 
with this. I would sign on the dotted line regarding solar, if I can be assured 
that Solar can and will power all of civilization's needs at the Terawatt 
level? I know that years ago, Freeman Dyson guessed that the Sun produced 33 
Trillion times, in one second, what human energy use produces in one year. I am 
not against anything that will save us. I am against empty promises whether 
they be nuclear, or solar. The clean must work, or its virtually, useless. If 
people insist on new, clean, energy, then they must produce the solutions. 
Hence, I say, faster, please.


-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Nov 15, 2013 9:21 pm
Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World



 
 
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 5:20 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
 

Please understand, that unless your geothermal is really good, people will 
successfully complain about earthquakes caused by geothermal energy, bath in 
Basel, and Bavaria, if I remember right? Plus, the replacement tech that are 
proposed, must provide terawatts of energy, to replace the dirty. Hot rock 
geothermal, really deep geothermal, might solve all this, and instead of 
water as a working fluid to provide super-heated steam to run turbines, a 
working fluid like propane or methane has been proposed, or even air. The 
carbon fuels are captured over and over again for re-use. How costly, this 
is, how environmental, how technically doable-I don't know. 
 
Funny how the very same type of earthquake, that is triggered by hydraulic 
fracking – which is what you are referring to in Basel (and similar events also 
shut down a dry rock geothermal pilot in northern California)  -- is now 
becoming widely used  in order to squeeze gas and kerogen from the shale rock. 
It still causes the 4 to 5 on the Reichter scale tremors, but this has not shut 
down that sector or even slowed things down. There is a kind of earthquake 
double standard going on. 
Dry rock geothermal – which is what you are referring to – is the creation of 
(or enhancement of existing fields) geothermal reservoirs in hot bedrock – 
miles down below – through the process of hydraulic fracking ( injecting water 
slurry mixed with poppants (sand or manufactured ceramic beads) – the gas/shale 
oil secotr adds a whole slew of chemicals to this slurry such as solvents and 
surficants in order to try to chemically separate the kerogen and get it 
flowing.
In theory dry rock geothermal could supply base load power in very large 
quantities in numerous locales on earth – the underlying geologies are quite 
common. However – except it seems when caused by the oil  gas sector – people 
react very poorly to man-made earthquakes, and this poses a real problem. I 
would suggest they pilot this technology in remotely populated areas first to 
see if they can find ways to release the underlying stresses in a more gradual 
manner for example by changing how the hydraulic fracking process is done. 
The potential for this is huge, but the technological problems are also huge. 
As the shale oil and gas drillers are finding out a fracked reservoir will 
begin to seal back up and the flows will gum up as salts and other deposits 
infill the micro-cracks, and I imagine as the sheer weight of the overburden 
re-compresses these fissures – slowly crushing the poppants holding them open.
For dry rock geothermal as well a fracked reservoir will get used up over time 
– eventually it will replenish as new heat flows in to the reservoir; after 
some years new reservoirs will need to be fracked.
Chris
 

-Original Message-
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 14, 2013 7:29 pm
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote:


On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:


Telmo and other 'experts': 

why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s 
and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure 
ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may 
provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving 
force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, 
agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free 
transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . 


 

I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't 
provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.

 

It's an option in some parts of the world

RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-16 Thread Chris de Morsella
 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 4:25 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

Ok, but I am not hostile at all to geothermal, especially if these quakes
are very minor ones. This is also true, for me, with fracking nat gas. I am
real ok with this. I would sign on the dotted line regarding solar, if I can
be assured that Solar can and will power all of civilization's needs at the
Terawatt level? I know that years ago, Freeman Dyson guessed that the Sun
produced 33 Trillion times, in one second, what human energy use produces in
one year. I am not against anything that will save us. I am against empty
promises whether they be nuclear, or solar. The clean must work, or its
virtually, useless. If people insist on new, clean, energy, then they must
produce the solutions. Hence, I say, faster, please.

 

Look at the moving average for the growth of solar PV over the last three
decades; it has more or less kept to a breakneck speed of growth and over
the last decade has increased by a factor of 20 times. The global solar PV
deployed capacity is nearing 50GW right now. Of course there is not a one to
one relationship of capacity to the actual ability to output onto the grid -
so applying a 20% factor to this capacity figure gives a more apples to
apples comparison to say a nuclear power plants capacity figure. Even doing
this kind of correction that means that the currently deployed solar PV
capacity is the equivalent of ten one GW thermal electric power plants. 

If the solar PV sector continues to grow at the pace it has historically
been growing at for the last thirty years then in another decade the
deployed capacity will start to close in on the TW scale - or an equivalent
continuous output of 200 one GW power plants (this is factoring all the
variability of solar and counting its capacity at just one fifth of its
rated value). In twenty years - if it holds to the historic growth factor
the global deployed capacity of solar PV will be 20TW. At some point this
growth has to peak - but every time in the past when it has been said that
it would bottleneck on this or that - critical supply or process -- and that
the growth rate would slow - this has failed to materialize and the growth
rate has proceeded apace. 

How big can solar PV scale? Some mention peak silicon, but lower grade
supplies are plentiful, and other non-silicon so called thin film PV
technologies also exist (some of which can scale, others - like the those
that rely on telluride -- not so much)

Does anyone see any fundamental reasons why the silicon PV sector cannot
scale out to the TW scale?

Chris

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Nov 15, 2013 9:21 pm
Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 5:20 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

Please understand, that unless your geothermal is really good, people will
successfully complain about earthquakes caused by geothermal energy, bath in
Basel, and Bavaria, if I remember right? Plus, the replacement tech that are
proposed, must provide terawatts of energy, to replace the dirty. Hot rock
geothermal, really deep geothermal, might solve all this, and instead of
water as a working fluid to provide super-heated steam to run turbines, a
working fluid like propane or methane has been proposed, or even air. The
carbon fuels are captured over and over again for re-use. How costly, this
is, how environmental, how technically doable-I don't know. 

 

Funny how the very same type of earthquake, that is triggered by hydraulic
fracking - which is what you are referring to in Basel (and similar events
also shut down a dry rock geothermal pilot in northern California)  -- is
now becoming widely used  in order to squeeze gas and kerogen from the shale
rock. It still causes the 4 to 5 on the Reichter scale tremors, but this has
not shut down that sector or even slowed things down. There is a kind of
earthquake double standard going on. 

Dry rock geothermal - which is what you are referring to - is the creation
of (or enhancement of existing fields) geothermal reservoirs in hot bedrock
- miles down below - through the process of hydraulic fracking ( injecting
water slurry mixed with poppants (sand or manufactured ceramic beads) - the
gas/shale oil secotr adds a whole slew of chemicals to this slurry such as
solvents and surficants in order to try to chemically separate the kerogen
and get it flowing.

In theory dry rock geothermal could supply base load power in very large
quantities in numerous locales on earth

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-16 Thread John Mikes
Telmo:
unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a
convoluted - I could say:
inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization.
SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface?
Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed
TODAY and we
will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell.
So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN
pipe.
Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for
OIL, similar - if a bit
longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for
pumping DOWN the
ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the
OTHER to ascend
the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ.
JOhn Mikes



On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 Telmo and other 'experts':
 why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in
 huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The
 high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the
 exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs,
 so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing
 technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes
 scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in
 asylum, etc.) .


 I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't
 provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.

 It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say
 solar is more readily available overall.

 --
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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-16 Thread John Mikes
Brent: that is a convoluted solution! I appreciate that you love sunshine,
but keep it for the beach.
Have you ever calculated how much surface of the present day efficiency is
required to collect -
say - 1000 times the energy we use today on the Globe? Think of energy
required for the missing
rainfall (agriculture) and snow-melt (hydroelectricity supply) not to
mention the 7-10b humans need
for potable water (desalinated from seawater). As much as I know you: you
know how to think BIG.
JM


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 7:29 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote:

 On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 Telmo and other 'experts':
 why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in
 huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The
 high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the
 exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs,
 so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing
 technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes
 scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in
 asylum, etc.) .


  I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but
 doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.

  It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say
 solar is more readily available overall.


 It might blend well with solar.  There have been proposals to store solar
 energy by heating underground reservoirs.

 Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-16 Thread Telmo Menezes
Hi John,

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 9:33 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
 Telmo:
 unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a
 convoluted - I could say:
 inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization.
 SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface?
 Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed
 TODAY and we
 will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell.
 So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN
 pipe.
 Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for
 OIL, similar - if a bit
 longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for
 pumping DOWN the
 ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the
 OTHER to ascend
 the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ.

Sorry, I didn't comment out of ignorance. The idea sounds very attractive.
What about depth? Is the necessary depth similar to oil extraction?
And what about yield? How many of these pipes would we need to replace
the energy output of a typical oil rig? Is it scalable?

Cheers,
Telmo.

 JOhn Mikes


 On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 Telmo and other 'experts':
 why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in
 huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The
 high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the
 exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so
 it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing
 technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes
 scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in
 asylum, etc.) .


 I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't
 provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.

 It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say
 solar is more readily available overall.

 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
 Everything List group.
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RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-16 Thread Chris de Morsella
 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:33 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

Telmo:

unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a
convoluted - I could say:

inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization. 

SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface? 

Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed
TODAY and we

will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell. 

So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN
pipe. 

Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for
OIL, similar - if a bit 

longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for
pumping DOWN the 

ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the
OTHER to ascend

the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ. 

JOhn Mikes

 

If it were that easy.. Dry rock geothermal requires amongst other things
large amounts of fresh water for hydraulic fracturing of the reservoir. This
process needs to be repeated periodically as the reservoirs reseal up over a
period of years (as is being experienced by the shale oil fracked wells) and
in the case of dry rock geothermal when the heat reservoir becomes drawn
down. The hot steam that comes out of the wells is too laden with minerals
and salts to be used directly and it thus requires a duel loop system in
which the primary loop boils water in a boiler to produce clean steam that
is passed through the generators.

Then there is the matter of earthquakes - including the I believe it was a
5.3 on the Richter scale tremors linked to it in Basel.

Dry rock geothermal certainly does have a big upside potential - there is a
whole lot of heat just a few miles below the ground, but it is not as easy
or simple as you seem to think it is. For example in a lot of dry areas
water supply becomes a gating factor that puts a limit on scalability - this
also applies to Canadian tar sands and shale gas plays - water requirements
will place a limit on how much it can scale; on the maximum annual rates of
extraction that can be achieved. 

Chris

 

 

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

Telmo and other 'experts':

why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge
Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high
pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil
wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could
serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g.
potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now -
pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . 

 

I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't
provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.

 

It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar
is more readily available overall.

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-16 Thread spudboy100

If you need to push this TW challenge back at me, I would advise using the 
techno emergence of Graphene for all this electrical because it has made the 
jump and is being researched world wide. Caveat. This does not guarantee that 
it will do the job at the TW level, and maybe silicon can? But my fear is that 
neither can, and rather then perish from AGW, we perish from energy starvation 
because the old tech is so dirty. 


-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Nov 16, 2013 1:47 pm
Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World



 
 
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 4:25 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
 

Ok, but I am not hostile at all to geothermal, especially if these quakes are 
very minor ones. This is also true, for me, with fracking nat gas. I am real ok 
with this. I would sign on the dotted line regarding solar, if I can be assured 
that Solar can and will power all of civilization's needs at the Terawatt 
level? I know that years ago, Freeman Dyson guessed that the Sun produced 33 
Trillion times, in one second, what human energy use produces in one year. I am 
not against anything that will save us. I am against empty promises whether 
they be nuclear, or solar. The clean must work, or its virtually, useless. If 
people insist on new, clean, energy, then they must produce the solutions. 
Hence, I say, faster, please.
 
Look at the moving average for the growth of solar PV over the last three 
decades; it has more or less kept to a breakneck speed of growth and over the 
last decade has increased by a factor of 20 times. The global solar PV deployed 
capacity is nearing 50GW right now. Of course there is not a one to one 
relationship of capacity to the actual ability to output onto the grid – so 
applying a 20% factor to this capacity figure gives a more apples to apples 
comparison to say a nuclear power plants capacity figure. Even doing this kind 
of correction that means that the currently deployed solar PV capacity is the 
equivalent of ten one GW thermal electric power plants. 
If the solar PV sector continues to grow at the pace it has historically been 
growing at for the last thirty years then in another decade the deployed 
capacity will start to close in on the TW scale – or an equivalent continuous 
output of 200 one GW power plants (this is factoring all the variability of 
solar and counting its capacity at just one fifth of its rated value). In 
twenty years – if it holds to the historic growth factor the global deployed 
capacity of solar PV will be 20TW. At some point this growth has to peak – but 
every time in the past when it has been said that it would bottleneck on this 
or that – critical supply or process -- and that the growth rate would slow – 
this has failed to materialize and the growth rate has proceeded apace. 
How big can solar PV scale? Some mention peak silicon, but lower grade supplies 
are plentiful, and other non-silicon so called thin film PV technologies also 
exist (some of which can scale, others – like the those that rely on telluride 
-- not so much)
Does anyone see any fundamental reasons why the silicon PV sector cannot scale 
out to the TW scale?
Chris
 
 
 

-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Nov 15, 2013 9:21 pm
Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World


 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 5:20 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 


Please understand, that unless your geothermal is really good, people will 
successfully complain about earthquakes caused by geothermal energy, bath in 
Basel, and Bavaria, if I remember right? Plus, the replacement tech that are 
proposed, must provide terawatts of energy, to replace the dirty. Hot rock 
geothermal, really deep geothermal, might solve all this, and instead of 
water as a working fluid to provide super-heated steam to run turbines, a 
working fluid like propane or methane has been proposed, or even air. The 
carbon fuels are captured over and over again for re-use. How costly, this 
is, how environmental, how technically doable-I don't know. 

 

Funny how the very same type of earthquake, that is triggered by hydraulic 
fracking – which is what you are referring to in Basel (and similar events also 
shut down a dry rock geothermal pilot in northern California)  -- is now 
becoming widely used  in order to squeeze gas and kerogen from the shale rock. 
It still causes the 4 to 5 on the Reichter scale tremors, but this has not shut 
down that sector or even slowed things down. There is a kind

RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-16 Thread Chris de Morsella
 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 1:20 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

If you need to push this TW challenge back at me, I would advise using the
techno emergence of Graphene for all this electrical because it has made the
jump and is being researched world wide. Caveat. This does not guarantee
that it will do the job at the TW level, and maybe silicon can? But my fear
is that neither can, and rather then perish from AGW, we perish from energy
starvation because the old tech is so dirty. 

 

If we continue to rely on fossil energy sources that raises the chances for
an accidental nuclear war arising out of a conventional energy war to secure
the control of diminishing reserves. 

Graphene is a very exciting material - for many applications. It has some
very interesting properties. But it is still very much a lab phenomenon and
I am not even certain that it can be produced in the scale that would be
required. There are other exotic photovoltaic materials that show promise as
well, including zinc oxide and carbon nano tubes as well as CIGS thin film
(and other thin film types). Silicon is very common in the earth's crust -
as silicates -- though it needs to be reduced and then purified. This
process of carbothermic reduction - to produce metallurgy grade silicon is
energy intensive, but the supply silicon feedstock to produce metallurgy
grade silicon is for practical purposes inexhaustible. Current refining
processes - that further refine the reduced metallurgy grade silicon  -- use
some fairly dirty chemistry (such as the hydrogen chloride refining
process), but silicon is also amenable to being re-cycled and there are
other refining processes in the works. So far I have not seen any
fundamental road blocks to scaling up the production of solar quality
silicon and hence to the scale of output of newly manufactured solar cells.
Other solar PV technologies cannot scale - such as the thin film technology
used by First Solar. Silicon instead - as far as I can tell - as the
potential to scale up to the multi-TW level.

Chris

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Nov 16, 2013 1:47 pm
Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 4:25 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

Ok, but I am not hostile at all to geothermal, especially if these quakes
are very minor ones. This is also true, for me, with fracking nat gas. I am
real ok with this. I would sign on the dotted line regarding solar, if I can
be assured that Solar can and will power all of civilization's needs at the
Terawatt level? I know that years ago, Freeman Dyson guessed that the Sun
produced 33 Trillion times, in one second, what human energy use produces in
one year. I am not against anything that will save us. I am against empty
promises whether they be nuclear, or solar. The clean must work, or its
virtually, useless. If people insist on new, clean, energy, then they must
produce the solutions. Hence, I say, faster, please.

 

Look at the moving average for the growth of solar PV over the last three
decades; it has more or less kept to a breakneck speed of growth and over
the last decade has increased by a factor of 20 times. The global solar PV
deployed capacity is nearing 50GW right now. Of course there is not a one to
one relationship of capacity to the actual ability to output onto the grid -
so applying a 20% factor to this capacity figure gives a more apples to
apples comparison to say a nuclear power plants capacity figure. Even doing
this kind of correction that means that the currently deployed solar PV
capacity is the equivalent of ten one GW thermal electric power plants. 

If the solar PV sector continues to grow at the pace it has historically
been growing at for the last thirty years then in another decade the
deployed capacity will start to close in on the TW scale - or an equivalent
continuous output of 200 one GW power plants (this is factoring all the
variability of solar and counting its capacity at just one fifth of its
rated value). In twenty years - if it holds to the historic growth factor
the global deployed capacity of solar PV will be 20TW. At some point this
growth has to peak - but every time in the past when it has been said that
it would bottleneck on this or that - critical supply or process -- and that
the growth rate would slow - this has failed to materialize and the growth
rate has proceeded apace. 

How big can solar PV scale? Some mention peak silicon, but lower grade
supplies are plentiful, and other non-silicon so

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-16 Thread John Mikes
Dear Telmo, oil wells went down deeper than previously estimated as
feasible. Techniques are evolving.
If 2, 0r 5 pipes are inadequate in transport capacity, use more. Ask the
engineers - I also claim ignorance.
the geological temperature vertical map is varying according to a lot of
factors.
Ignorance is not a good argument for not considering (and asking).
John


On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote:

 Hi John,

 On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 9:33 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
  Telmo:
  unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a
  convoluted - I could say:
  inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface
 utilization.
  SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface?
  Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as
 needed
  TODAY and we
  will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell.
  So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN
  pipe.
  Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for
  OIL, similar - if a bit
  longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for
  pumping DOWN the
  ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment,
 the
  OTHER to ascend
  the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ.

 Sorry, I didn't comment out of ignorance. The idea sounds very attractive.
 What about depth? Is the necessary depth similar to oil extraction?
 And what about yield? How many of these pipes would we need to replace
 the energy output of a typical oil rig? Is it scalable?

 Cheers,
 Telmo.

  JOhn Mikes
 
 
  On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Telmo and other 'experts':
  why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in
  huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage.
 The
  high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the
  exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's
 needs, so
  it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing
  technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water
 becomes
  scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians
 in
  asylum, etc.) .
 
 
  I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but
 doesn't
  provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.
 
  It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say
  solar is more readily available overall.
 
  --
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 Groups
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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-16 Thread John Mikes
Chris: if you utter reservoir - you are on the wrong track. Nothing must
COME OUT from the depth.
Not even what YOU pumped in into open plenum. (My objection against the NZ
plant).
In Hungary in the 1950s a 'hot spring well' was tried to bring out 'heat'
by its own pressure. By the time
it reached the surface cooling a bit (and expanded(!) from the pressure)
the  M U D  solidified into a hot mass. There was no private enterprise in
commi Hungary at that time, so the idea was scrapped.
John M


On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote:





 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John Mikes
 *Sent:* Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:33 PM

 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World



 Telmo:

 unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a
 convoluted - I could say:

 inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface
 utilization.

 SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface?

 Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as
 needed TODAY and we

 will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell.

 So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN
 pipe.

 Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for
 OIL, similar - if a bit

 longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for
 pumping DOWN the

 ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the
 OTHER to ascend

 the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ.

 JOhn Mikes



 If it were that easy…. Dry rock geothermal requires amongst other things
 large amounts of fresh water for hydraulic fracturing of the reservoir.
 This process needs to be repeated periodically as the reservoirs reseal up
 over a period of years (as is being experienced by the shale oil fracked
 wells) and in the case of dry rock geothermal when the heat reservoir
 becomes drawn down. The hot steam that comes out of the wells is too laden
 with minerals and salts to be used directly and it thus requires a duel
 loop system in which the primary loop boils water in a boiler to produce
 clean steam that is passed through the generators.

 Then there is the matter of earthquakes – including the I believe it was a
 5.3 on the Richter scale tremors linked to it in Basel.

 Dry rock geothermal certainly does have a big upside potential – there is
 a whole lot of heat just a few miles below the ground, but it is not as
 easy or simple as you seem to think it is. For example in a lot of dry
 areas water supply becomes a gating factor that puts a limit on scalability
 – this also applies to Canadian tar sands and shale gas plays – water
 requirements will place a limit on how much it can scale; on the maximum
 annual rates of extraction that can be achieved.

 Chris





 On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 Telmo and other 'experts':

 why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge
 Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high
 pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted
 oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could
 serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g.
 potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now
 - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) .



 I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't
 provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.



 It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say
 solar is more readily available overall.

 --
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RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-16 Thread Chris de Morsella
John - The term reservoir has a well understood usage, when speaking about
hydraulic fracturing, to describe the engineered rock volume that is filled
by micro-fissures, created by injecting water under immense pressure into
the rock, at the well head. 

The injected slurry contains poppants. Poppants are either sand or
engineered small ceramic beads. It is this gritty material that maintains
the micro-fissures and allows for the creation of a three dimensional volume
- i.e. the reservoir - in which water can be injected and absorb heat from
the rock volume that has been exposed - a much vaster surface area - by the
hydraulic fracking.

I am using the term reservoir very correctly - in the terms that it is used
when speaking of hydraulic fracturing. Eventually the engineered rock volume
that has been created by this process of fracking begins to reseal (the
overburden is immense and squeezes the micro-fissures shut over time). In
addition the engineered reservoir - in the specific sense that this term is
used when speaking about hydraulic fracturing - will over time become
depleted as heat is removed from it. Eventually that volume of rock will get
hot again, but by the time it does the engineered micro-fissures will have
been squeezed shut and the reservoir will have to be re-fracked.

Water is injected into this reservoir, where it is turned into hot high
pressure steam that comes up the second well. This steam is far too
corrosive laden with minerals to use directly and must instead be used to
boil the actual water, whose high pressure steam will transfer energy into
the spinning turbine. If you used the steam from the well head you would be
replacing turbines every year or two.

Chris

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 2:49 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

Chris: if you utter reservoir - you are on the wrong track. Nothing must
COME OUT from the depth.

Not even what YOU pumped in into open plenum. (My objection against the NZ
plant). 

In Hungary in the 1950s a 'hot spring well' was tried to bring out 'heat' by
its own pressure. By the time 

it reached the surface cooling a bit (and expanded(!) from the pressure) the
M U D  solidified into a hot mass. There was no private enterprise in commi
Hungary at that time, so the idea was scrapped. 

John M

 

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
wrote:

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:33 PM


To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

Telmo:

unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a
convoluted - I could say:

inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization. 

SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface? 

Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed
TODAY and we

will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell. 

So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN
pipe. 

Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for
OIL, similar - if a bit 

longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for
pumping DOWN the 

ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the
OTHER to ascend

the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ. 

JOhn Mikes

 

If it were that easy.. Dry rock geothermal requires amongst other things
large amounts of fresh water for hydraulic fracturing of the reservoir. This
process needs to be repeated periodically as the reservoirs reseal up over a
period of years (as is being experienced by the shale oil fracked wells) and
in the case of dry rock geothermal when the heat reservoir becomes drawn
down. The hot steam that comes out of the wells is too laden with minerals
and salts to be used directly and it thus requires a duel loop system in
which the primary loop boils water in a boiler to produce clean steam that
is passed through the generators.

Then there is the matter of earthquakes - including the I believe it was a
5.3 on the Richter scale tremors linked to it in Basel.

Dry rock geothermal certainly does have a big upside potential - there is a
whole lot of heat just a few miles below the ground, but it is not as easy
or simple as you seem to think it is. For example in a lot of dry areas
water supply becomes a gating factor that puts a limit on scalability - this
also applies to Canadian tar sands and shale gas plays - water requirements
will place a limit on how much it can scale; on the maximum annual rates of
extraction that can be achieved. 

Chris

 

 

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami

RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-15 Thread Chris de Morsella
 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:39 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

On 11/14/2013 6:28 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote:

On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

Telmo and other 'experts': 

why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge
Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high
pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil
wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could
serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g.
potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now -
pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . 

 

I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't
provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.

 

It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar
is more readily available overall.


 It might blend well with solar.  There have been proposals to store solar
energy by heating underground reservoirs.

 

Large scale CSPs (concentrating solar (thermal) power) such as the new GW
complex they have built in southern California use molten salt as their
energy carrier. This facility can keep generating electricity well after the
sun has gone down because it stores the hot molten salt (saltpeter I
believe) in insulated vats. This is one of the advantages of large scale
solar thermal has over PV; as soon as the sun is occulted solar PV output
drops precipitously (though newer PV cells that also have band-gaps tuned
for infrared energy would continue to produce some output even when clouds
came overhead, because of the infrared energy.) 

There is a lot of money and RD being thrown at the energy storage problem
and a fair number of utility scale battery types are on the RD pipeline as
well as some other interesting ideas for energy storage. CSP is unique in
that because it is harvesting heat it can store its energy with the same
energy carrier it uses to harvest the solar energy - i.e. the molten salt.
Wind, PV, etc. need to transform the electricity into another medium (unless
using supercapacitors) in order to store the energy and this invariably
(second law of thermodynamics) entails a process loss - and in both
directions.


I don't think there's any thermodynamic advantage though to a
solar/molten-salt system as compared to a PV.  When the sun is shining the
PV produces electricity (low entropy energy) directly while the solar/salt
system has to use a heat engine to get electricity.  If there is excess
energy the PV systems could also store in molten salt.  The disadvantage for
the PV system is then that it needs a heat engine too.  It then incurs the
same thermodynamic inefficiency when the heat engine runs off the molten
salt.

 

All valid points and with which I agree. PV systems have also been following
cost curves reminiscent of that other silicon technology. Already the other
system costs outweigh the cells themselves. Eventually I hope to see wide
scale distributed solar PV with some benign form of energy storage. I also
hope they can get the mass manufacturing costs down for multijunction cells
that can harvest electrons over a wider spectrum of wavelengths. 

CSP systems do have this inherent ability when paired with efficient thermal
reservoirs to time shift their generating capacity and deliver current onto
the grid many hours after the sun has gone down. They can behave in many
regards somewhat like baseload generation; not completely of course for they
are still subject to longer duration periods of bad weather, but they can
both smooth their output (compared to PV, which responds almost instantly to
variations in light levels) and have this inherent ability to store the
energy for a short duration - perhaps even several days if the tanks are
super insulated.

The lower efficiency of thermo-electric conversion I believe is partially
made up by the higher efficiency of thermal harvesting of incident solar
irradiance - I could be wrong about that though, but the best single
junction PV is around 20% so maybe not that hard to beat.

In the end I think large scale CSV is more of a niche supply that makes
sense in some desert areas that can scale in size to the sizes needed in
order to get scales of efficiency.






Most electricity storage - and by a huge margin - is accomplished by pumped
storage. Japan, in particular leads in this area. But traditional pumped
storage suffers from siting issues

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-15 Thread spudboy100

Please understand, that unless your geothermal is really good, people will 
successfully complain about earthquakes caused by geothermal energy, bath in 
Basel, and Bavaria, if I remember right? Plus, the replacement tech that are 
proposed, must provide terawatts of energy, to replace the dirty. Hot rock 
geothermal, really deep geothermal, might solve all this, and instead of water 
as a working fluid to provide super-heated steam to run turbines, a working 
fluid like propane or methane has been proposed, or even air. The carbon fuels 
are captured over and over again for re-use. How costly, this is, how 
environmental, how technically doable-I don't know. 


-Original Message-
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 14, 2013 7:29 pm
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


  

On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote:


  
On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.comwrote:

  

  
Telmo and other 'experts':
why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy  app - 
available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in  (literalily) 
'superficial' usage. The high pressure  ultra-clean steam from 
a deepened modification of the  exhausted oil wells may provide 
much much more energy  than today's needs, so it could serve as 
driving force  for more than we think by ongoing technology. 
(E.g.  potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water 
 becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free  
transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.)  . 
  

  
  


I assume you mean geothermal energy. It  is used in New Zealand but 
doesn't provide as much energy as  wind and hydro as far as I know.




It's an option in some parts of the  world, certainly, but I would say 
solar is more readily  available overall.

  


It might blend well with solar.  There have been proposals to store
solar energy by heating underground reservoirs.

Brent 
  

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-15 Thread meekerdb

On 11/15/2013 12:15 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote:


So the energy would be stored in the potential energy of the heavy piston and the water 
would just be a working medium?  Why not put the weight on a cable and use a purely 
mechanical system?  I'd think that could be more efficient that a water turbine.


Other engineering friends of mine have levelled the same criticism of that idea. I guess 
the only counter argument could be that the very heavy piston's weight would be born 
directly by the compressed water column,




Water doesn't compress.  You're just using it to move the weight up and down.  As far as 
energetics go, it's no different than a cable hoist.


and that for very large masses the cable systems could present serious problems with 
stresses from wear -- have you ever seen when an elevator cable is un-torqued; it 
literally whips around as the stresses are released. Wondering about the stresses that 
repeated winding and unwinding of the support cables would induce.




The main problem is just size.  I considered designing an energy storage system to be used 
with home, rooftop PVs.  I looked around for something heavy that could be lifted up to 
store energy.  My car.  It weighs about 2600lb.  Suppose I lifted it ten feet (high as the 
roof).  I've stored 26,000ft*lb = 10Wh  :-(


Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-15 Thread LizR
On 16 November 2013 07:01, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 The main problem is just size.  I considered designing an energy storage
 system to be used with home, rooftop PVs.  I looked around for something
 heavy that could be lifted up to store energy.  My car.  It weighs about
 2600lb.  Suppose I lifted it ten feet (high as the roof).  I've stored
 26,000ft*lb = 10Wh  :-(

 At last, a use for cars that doesn't involve carbon emissions!

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RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-15 Thread Chris de Morsella
 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 5:20 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

Please understand, that unless your geothermal is really good, people will
successfully complain about earthquakes caused by geothermal energy, bath in
Basel, and Bavaria, if I remember right? Plus, the replacement tech that are
proposed, must provide terawatts of energy, to replace the dirty. Hot rock
geothermal, really deep geothermal, might solve all this, and instead of
water as a working fluid to provide super-heated steam to run turbines, a
working fluid like propane or methane has been proposed, or even air. The
carbon fuels are captured over and over again for re-use. How costly, this
is, how environmental, how technically doable-I don't know. 

 

Funny how the very same type of earthquake, that is triggered by hydraulic
fracking - which is what you are referring to in Basel (and similar events
also shut down a dry rock geothermal pilot in northern California)  -- is
now becoming widely used  in order to squeeze gas and kerogen from the shale
rock. It still causes the 4 to 5 on the Reichter scale tremors, but this has
not shut down that sector or even slowed things down. There is a kind of
earthquake double standard going on. 

Dry rock geothermal - which is what you are referring to - is the creation
of (or enhancement of existing fields) geothermal reservoirs in hot bedrock
- miles down below - through the process of hydraulic fracking ( injecting
water slurry mixed with poppants (sand or manufactured ceramic beads) - the
gas/shale oil secotr adds a whole slew of chemicals to this slurry such as
solvents and surficants in order to try to chemically separate the kerogen
and get it flowing.

In theory dry rock geothermal could supply base load power in very large
quantities in numerous locales on earth - the underlying geologies are quite
common. However - except it seems when caused by the oil  gas sector -
people react very poorly to man-made earthquakes, and this poses a real
problem. I would suggest they pilot this technology in remotely populated
areas first to see if they can find ways to release the underlying stresses
in a more gradual manner for example by changing how the hydraulic fracking
process is done. 

The potential for this is huge, but the technological problems are also
huge. As the shale oil and gas drillers are finding out a fracked reservoir
will begin to seal back up and the flows will gum up as salts and other
deposits infill the micro-cracks, and I imagine as the sheer weight of the
overburden re-compresses these fissures - slowly crushing the poppants
holding them open.

For dry rock geothermal as well a fracked reservoir will get used up over
time - eventually it will replenish as new heat flows in to the reservoir;
after some years new reservoirs will need to be fracked.

Chris

 

-Original Message-
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 14, 2013 7:29 pm
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote:

On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

Telmo and other 'experts': 

why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge
Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high
pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil
wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could
serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g.
potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now -
pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . 

 

I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't
provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.

 

It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar
is more readily available overall.


It might blend well with solar.  There have been proposals to store solar
energy by heating underground reservoirs.

Brent 

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RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-15 Thread Chris de Morsella
 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 10:02 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

On 11/15/2013 12:15 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote:

So the energy would be stored in the potential energy of the heavy piston
and the water would just be a working medium?  Why not put the weight on a
cable and use a purely mechanical system?  I'd think that could be more
efficient that a water turbine.




Other engineering friends of mine have levelled the same criticism of that
idea. I guess the only counter argument could be that the very heavy
piston's weight would be born directly by the compressed water column, 


Water doesn't compress.  You're just using it to move the weight up and
down.  As far as energetics go, it's no different than a cable hoist.

 

I realize that - what I meant to say is that the water column bears the
weight - hence no need for a cabling system. Water that is put under
pressure will occupy the same volume, but will have a potential energy (as
long as that pressure is maintained) that a similar water column not under
pressure will not have.






and that for very large masses the cable systems could present serious
problems with stresses from wear - have you ever seen when an elevator cable
is un-torqued; it literally whips around as the stresses are released.
Wondering about the stresses that repeated winding and unwinding of the
support cables would induce.


The main problem is just size.  I considered designing an energy storage
system to be used with home, rooftop PVs.  I looked around for something
heavy that could be lifted up to store energy.  My car.  It weighs about
2600lb.  Suppose I lifted it ten feet (high as the roof).  I've stored
26,000ft*lb = 10Wh  :-(



 

Friends of mine and I have kicked similar ideas - rail cars loaded with low
grade (but quite dense) iron ore that are cable hoisted up an ridiculously
steep grade and turn a generator when they slowly travel back down. Again -
we have been disappointed by the capacity.. All of this for that? SO I hear
you.

Clearly the mass that is moved between the high reservoir and the low
reservoir has to be quite immense - probably why only pumped storage makes
sense for this kind of kinetic potential energy storage. Certainly thought
the full reservoir behind a damn has a huge potential energy. Japan -
approximate figures from memory - has a pumped storage capacity built out
that is somewhere around 10% of its total capacity, which is a pretty
impressive figure.

Chris


Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-14 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 13 Nov 2013, at 17:43, meekerdb wrote:


On 11/13/2013 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 12 Nov 2013, at 22:10, Alberto G. Corona wrote:






As human beings they were reluctant to provide hard earned data to  
those who had proved to mere critics - like you - with no interest  
but to spread doubt.


Can ever have been a more clear confession of sectarianism ? Doubt  
about what? about what yours affirm that is truth and must be  
taken as face value?  Is that the new conception of science  and  
the one that Popper et al teach to me is ourdated?


Global warning cannot be a question of science.


?? We only know it exists because of science.


Sorry, I was talking about the link between human's activity and  
global warming. But even the truth of it can't be science, and you  
should say we *believe* it exists because that is the way we  
interpret the data.






It is a question of mondial/global politics, and in this case I  
believe that even few evidence for some something irreversible and  
possibly fatal for a planet should be avoided when possible.


That's why science is of no direct use in politics. Science is  
doubt, and politics is decision. I use that argument to defend an  
ecological and economical precaution principle valid in global  
planetary decision which might be irreversible and possibly lethal,  
but also for positive decision like investing on asteroids and the  
means to deviate them.


When science is directly used in politics, it becomes pseudo- 
religious crap.
We *have to* take care of the planet, simply. It is not a question  
of surviving, but of quality of life.


(That's why also global warming is way out of topics ...: it is a  
matter of voting and politicians). As you said (I think) science  
must be separated from politics (in the two senses).



But both global warming and asteroid strikes are something we know  
about only through science.  You seems to imply that science should  
not inform political action?  Then how else can political action be  
informed?


I am not saying that political action should not be informed by  
science, quite the contrary, but science can only offer beliefs and  
degree of plausibility, and we know not much, and must act in absence  
of any certainty in the matter. In this case, what I say, is that  
politicians, by lying systematically for a long period on important  
domains (health/drug, now terror, etc.) seems to misuse science, and  
often use pseudo-science to develop fear selling technics, and  
control what people can think, disallowing the natural competition  
between possible products.


Bruno



http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-14 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 13 Nov 2013, at 23:27, meekerdb wrote:


On 11/13/2013 11:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

The catholic and the chihite,


This one: http://lordblumiere.deviantart.com/art/Chihite-Angelorum-61177983



Sorry, I was using the french terming. I was referring to those  
following Shi'a Islam, or Shi'it Islam. Like Catholic, they believe in  
sort of pope, (Ayatollah, expert on Allah (God)) who can act like  
selected authorities on civil or political matter, unlike the Sunni,  
or the protestant. Like Catholics, the Shi'it tend more easily to mix  
state and religion, by conferring to much divine authority to  
humans.  That is palpable in today's Iran (which is mainly shi'it).


Bruno



http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-14 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 13 Nov 2013, at 23:43, meekerdb wrote:


On 11/13/2013 12:38 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
What is legal? Guns, oil, car, tobacco, alcohol, those things kill  
a lot, and none are/were really necessary.


Killing people with guns (or otherwise) is generally illegal.


I think it is a good idea, except for legitimate self-defense of  
course. death penalty is still legally applied in some country, and  
it is a modern inhuman nonsense to me. Of course it makes room in  
jaill, so that we can put smokers in them ... :(






Very few things are necessary to live - but many things are desirable.


Sure. But many many things are made desirable by advertizing, some of  
which are just lies.






What is illegal? Hemp, Tabernanthe iboga, magic mushrooms, LSD, ...  
Without any argument that they lead to serious problem, when used  
with moderation and responsibility, following the user guide.


Legalize all of those stuff, and tax proportionally to the real  
troubles. People are not stupid, they will adapt convenably.


Hmm?  How shall we tax proportionately for polluting the atmosphere,  
the water table?


(the water table ?)

We do have tools. On some radio channel they give the day by day  
pollution state of of the main cities.

Carbon taxes already plays such a role.

But this done not make any sense if alternative are not allowed,  
because we cannot even measure the difference.


The energy/pollution problem is a tough problem, but it has been made  
unsolvable by purposeful mind pollution, through lies coming  
systematically from the top.


Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-14 Thread John Mikes
Telmo and other 'experts':
why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge
Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high
pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted
oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could
serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g.
potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now
- pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) .
JM




On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote:

 On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 5:51 PM, Chris de Morsella
 cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
  [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes
  Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:07 AM
  To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
  Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
 
  On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
  On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
 
  if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide
  a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please.
 
 
  The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need.
 
  Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given
  the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space
  race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week.
 
  I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent this. I
  also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse of human
  potential and that great things could be achieved instead.
 
  Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at
 the
  moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil fuels
  being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the scale of the
  problem and the limitations of current technology. We have a world
  population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I was born, in
 1976.
  It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and this is an important
 part of
  the equation. Ultimately, the world's energy budget is mostly spent on
  providing basic necessities to all of these people. Food, heating, health
  care, schools and so on. I'm not arguing that the resources are correctly
  distributed, but I am arguing that this is what we mostly use the energy
  for. A lot of energy. The large chunk of it currently comes from oil,
 coal
  and natural gas.
 
  So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar panels
 are
  based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of silicon
  available might not be enough for the total solar panel surface area
 that we
  would need to remove our dependency on fossil fuels. In fact, some people
  are suggesting that we already reached peak silicon.
 
  Another other issue is energy efficiency. Mining the raw materials and
 then
  transforming them into solar panels takes a certain energy budget. Then
  these panels last for some years. Then you have to build new ones. The
 more
  you remove fossil fuel from the equation, the more you have to rely on
 the
  solar panels energy to pay for the energy budget of the next generation.
  Notice that you also have to store a lot of energy because of seasonal
  effects, day an night and so on.
  This takes some sort of capacitor with its own energy budget. I don't
 think
  it's clear that all this could become self-sustainable with our current
  technology. Remember that we still have to provide for the 7 billion
 humans
  while paying these energy investments -- and I mean paying in terms of
  energy, doesn't matter if we're under cut-throat capitalism or a
 socialist
  utopia, this economic fact remains.
 
  In fact, defeating our dependency on fossil fuels and curbing our CO2
  emissions are antagonistic goals. To bootstrap the great solar panel
 farm we
  need a lot of energy upfront. The faster you want to do it, the more of
 this
  energy has to come from fossil fuels. Then you have two options: increase
  CO2 emissions or use energy that you would normally use to keep the 7
  billion people alive. The faster you do it and the more you rely on the
  second option, the more human suffering you will cause. We're mot talking
  about trivial inconveniences either, we're talking about millions and
  millions dying from starvation, cold and disease. It is tempting to
 assume
  that we can go back to a simpler lifestyle and make do with less, but
 this
  regards that the current carrying capacity was made possible by the
 energy
  budget provided by fossil fuels. Before the energy revolution there were
  orders of magnitude less human beings on earth, and the complexity of
 human
  society was much lower. Organising 7 billion people to live somewhat
  peacefully on a small planet is no trivial matter. You cannot disregard

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-14 Thread LizR
On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 Telmo and other 'experts':
 why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge
 Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high
 pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted
 oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could
 serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g.
 potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now
 - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) .


I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't
provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.

It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar
is more readily available overall.

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-14 Thread meekerdb

On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote:

On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com 
mailto:jami...@gmail.com wrote:

Telmo and other 'experts':
why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge 
Q-s and
so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure
ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells 
may
provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as 
driving force
for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, 
agri-irrigation,
when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, 
keeping
politicians in asylum, etc.) .


I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as 
much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.


It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more 
readily available overall.


It might blend well with solar.  There have been proposals to store solar energy by 
heating underground reservoirs.


Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-14 Thread LizR
On 15 November 2013 13:29, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote:

 On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 Telmo and other 'experts':
 why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in
 huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The
 high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the
 exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs,
 so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing
 technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes
 scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in
 asylum, etc.) .


  I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but
 doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.

  It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say
 solar is more readily available overall.


 It might blend well with solar.  There have been proposals to store solar
 energy by heating underground reservoirs.


That sounds good. The problem with it is of course night (and clouds) so
methods of storage (or a world-wide power grid?) are important.

(Although despite being intermittent, it could still take up some of the
load and reduce emissions.)

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RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-14 Thread Chris de Morsella
 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote:

On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

Telmo and other 'experts': 

why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge
Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high
pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil
wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could
serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g.
potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now -
pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . 

 

I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't
provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.

 

It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar
is more readily available overall.


 It might blend well with solar.  There have been proposals to store solar
energy by heating underground reservoirs.

 

Large scale CSPs (concentrating solar (thermal) power) such as the new GW
complex they have built in southern California use molten salt as their
energy carrier. This facility can keep generating electricity well after the
sun has gone down because it stores the hot molten salt (saltpeter I
believe) in insulated vats. This is one of the advantages of large scale
solar thermal has over PV; as soon as the sun is occulted solar PV output
drops precipitously (though newer PV cells that also have band-gaps tuned
for infrared energy would continue to produce some output even when clouds
came overhead, because of the infrared energy.) 

There is a lot of money and RD being thrown at the energy storage problem
and a fair number of utility scale battery types are on the RD pipeline as
well as some other interesting ideas for energy storage. CSP is unique in
that because it is harvesting heat it can store its energy with the same
energy carrier it uses to harvest the solar energy - i.e. the molten salt.
Wind, PV, etc. need to transform the electricity into another medium (unless
using supercapacitors) in order to store the energy and this invariably
(second law of thermodynamics) entails a process loss - and in both
directions.

Most electricity storage - and by a huge margin - is accomplished by pumped
storage. Japan, in particular leads in this area. But traditional pumped
storage suffers from siting issues. I have looked at some novel pumped
storage proposals that instead bore deep cylinders with a moving and very
massive (heavy) piston. The system would have a low pressure upper reservoir
and a high pressure lower reservoir below the piston. To draw energy down
water from the high pressure reservoir is run through a turbine to generate
electricity and flows into the spent reservoir above the piston (which
descends towards the bottom of the cylinder); to re-charge the battery
electricity is consumed to run the generator/turbine in reverse and pump the
water (or other working fluid) from the low pressure reservoir, back into
the high pressure one. Air pressure is also used (Alabama).

Chris



Brent 

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-14 Thread meekerdb

On 11/14/2013 6:28 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:


*From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On 
Behalf Of *meekerdb

*Sent:* Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM
*To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
*Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote:

On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com 
mailto:jami...@gmail.com
wrote:

Telmo and other 'experts':

why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in 
huge Q-s
and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high 
pressure
ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil 
wells may
provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as 
driving
force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water,
agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - 
pollution-free
transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) .

I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't 
provide
as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know.

It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar 
is more
readily available overall.


It might blend well with solar.  There have been proposals to store solar energy by 
heating underground reservoirs.


Large scale CSPs (concentrating solar (thermal) power) such as the new GW complex they 
have built in southern California use molten salt as their energy carrier. This facility 
can keep generating electricity well after the sun has gone down because it stores the 
hot molten salt (saltpeter I believe) in insulated vats. This is one of the advantages 
of large scale solar thermal has over PV; as soon as the sun is occulted solar PV output 
drops precipitously (though newer PV cells that also have band-gaps tuned for infrared 
energy would continue to produce some output even when clouds came overhead, because of 
the infrared energy.)


There is a lot of money and RD being thrown at the energy storage problem and a fair 
number of utility scale battery types are on the RD pipeline as well as some other 
interesting ideas for energy storage. CSP is unique in that because it is harvesting 
heat it can store its energy with the same energy carrier it uses to harvest the solar 
energy -- i.e. the molten salt. Wind, PV, etc. need to transform the electricity into 
another medium (unless using supercapacitors) in order to store the energy and this 
invariably (second law of thermodynamics) entails a process loss -- and in both directions.




I don't think there's any thermodynamic advantage though to a solar/molten-salt system as 
compared to a PV.  When the sun is shining the PV produces electricity (low entropy 
energy) directly while the solar/salt system has to use a heat engine to get electricity.  
If there is excess energy the PV systems could also store in molten salt.  The 
disadvantage for the PV system is then that it needs a heat engine too.  It then incurs 
the same thermodynamic inefficiency when the heat engine runs off the molten salt.


Most electricity storage -- and by a huge margin -- is accomplished by pumped storage. 
Japan, in particular leads in this area. But traditional pumped storage suffers from 
siting issues. I have looked at some novel pumped storage proposals that instead bore 
deep cylinders with a moving and very massive (heavy) piston. The system would have a 
low pressure upper reservoir and a high pressure lower reservoir below the piston. To 
draw energy down water from the high pressure reservoir is run through a turbine to 
generate electricity and flows into the spent reservoir above the piston (which descends 
towards the bottom of the cylinder); to re-charge the battery electricity is consumed 
to run the generator/turbine in reverse and pump the water (or other working fluid) from 
the low pressure reservoir, back into the high pressure one. Air pressure is also used 
(Alabama).




So the energy would be stored in the potential energy of the heavy piston and the water 
would just be a working medium?  Why not put the weight on a cable and use a purely 
mechanical system?  I'd think that could be more efficient that a water turbine.


Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Of course comrade.
Why don´t you translate to Europe? Here our party is not only in the
University, but in the media too. Here the truth is said: Every disaster is
a product of greedy American capitalism, or barbarious zionism. But better
though, We need you there in the Capitalist land.

Salam alecum.

This was sent from my Iphone


2013/11/13 LizR lizj...@gmail.com

 On 12 November 2013 22:56, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:


 This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was
 publised in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was
 perverted by the deniers? I have no option  but to think that you believe
 en evil deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming
 apocalypse.  And you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black
 magic, I will appear in your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me.


 Or you could look at TV advertising, with big expensive ads for cars, or
 at the paper with pull out sections which are trying to sell cars, or you
 could look at the TV news, which despite reporting virtually a new climate
 related disaster every week now, hardly ever mentions that it might be
 linked to global warming (unless it's to point out that no single storn
 can be directly linked to global warming - the only mention I've heard
 recently). Now add up how many people read science magazines and how many
 watch car adverts on TV.

 Now maybe you can see who is in charge of shaping our opinions.

 When car ads are banned, as cigarette ads are, there may be some tiny
 amount of truth in what you say. (Although by the time *that* happens,
 Auckland will probably be underwater.)

 But until then, the deniers are firmly in control.


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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 12 Nov 2013, at 22:10, Alberto G. Corona wrote:






As human beings they were reluctant to provide hard earned data to  
those who had proved to mere critics - like you - with no interest  
but to spread doubt.


Can ever have been a more clear confession of sectarianism ? Doubt  
about what? about what yours affirm that is truth and must be taken  
as face value?  Is that the new conception of science  and the one  
that Popper et al teach to me is ourdated?


Global warning cannot be a question of science. It is a question of  
mondial/global politics, and in this case I believe that even few  
evidence for some something irreversible and possibly fatal for a  
planet should be avoided when possible.


That's why science is of no direct use in politics. Science is doubt,  
and politics is decision. I use that argument to defend an ecological  
and economical precaution principle valid in global planetary decision  
which might be irreversible and possibly lethal, but also for positive  
decision like investing on asteroids and the means to deviate them.


When science is directly used in politics, it becomes pseudo-religious  
crap.
We *have to* take care of the planet, simply. It is not a question of  
surviving, but of quality of life.


(That's why also global warming is way out of topics ...: it is a  
matter of voting and politicians). As you said (I think) science must  
be separated from politics (in the two senses).


Bruno







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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a
 clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please.


 The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need.

 Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the
 sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or
 warfare we'd have this sorted by next week.

I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent
this. I also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse
of human potential and that great things could be achieved instead.

Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at
the moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil
fuels being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the
scale of the problem and the limitations of current technology. We
have a world population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I
was born, in 1976. It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and
this is an important part of the equation. Ultimately, the world's
energy budget is mostly spent on providing basic necessities to all of
these people. Food, heating, health care, schools and so on. I'm not
arguing that the resources are correctly distributed, but I am arguing
that this is what we mostly use the energy for. A lot of energy. The
large chunk of it currently comes from oil, coal and natural gas.

So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar
panels are based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of
silicon available might not be enough for the total solar panel
surface area that we would need to remove our dependency on fossil
fuels. In fact, some people are suggesting that we already reached
peak silicon.

Another other issue is energy efficiency. Mining the raw materials and
then transforming them into solar panels takes a certain energy
budget. Then these panels last for some years. Then you have to build
new ones. The more you remove fossil fuel from the equation, the more
you have to rely on the solar panels energy to pay for the energy
budget of the next generation. Notice that you also have to store a
lot of energy because of seasonal effects, day an night and so on.
This takes some sort of capacitor with its own energy budget. I don't
think it's clear that all this could become self-sustainable with our
current technology. Remember that we still have to provide for the 7
billion humans while paying these energy investments -- and I mean
paying in terms of energy, doesn't matter if we're under cut-throat
capitalism or a socialist utopia, this economic fact remains.

In fact, defeating our dependency on fossil fuels and curbing our CO2
emissions are antagonistic goals. To bootstrap the great solar panel
farm we need a lot of energy upfront. The faster you want to do it,
the more of this energy has to come from fossil fuels. Then you have
two options: increase CO2 emissions or use energy that you would
normally use to keep the 7 billion people alive. The faster you do it
and the more you rely on the second option, the more human suffering
you will cause. We're mot talking about trivial inconveniences either,
we're talking about millions and millions dying from starvation, cold
and disease. It is tempting to assume that we can go back to a simpler
lifestyle and make do with less, but this regards that the current
carrying capacity was made possible by the energy budget provided by
fossil fuels. Before the energy revolution there were orders of
magnitude less human beings on earth, and the complexity of human
society was much lower. Organising 7 billion people to live somewhat
peacefully on a small planet is no trivial matter. You cannot
disregard economic and social effects. We are not talking about some
tribe here. A bit of politics, sorry -- part of the reason I am for
less government is that I think that this level of complexity vastly
outgrown human intelligence. Nobody can manage this, it has to be
self-organising to a large degree. And it is. Where there is more
central control, there is also more human suffering, case in point:
China. They had to resort to enforcing a child birth budget to manage
both the energy budget and the complexity.

The same principles apply to wind power and all other renewable source
we know of. They have horrible efficiency compared to fossil --
efficiency as in energy investments required vs. total yield. A
technology breakthrough could change things, but then we're relying on
something that might not even be possible.

Here's an interesting report that analyses both energy budget issues
and complexity:
http://www.feasta.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Tipping-Point-Nov.pdf

Telmo.

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 12 Nov 2013, at 22:47, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Indeed. I look at things a bit different, perhaps. then yourself. I  
see it, us, as being set against obliteration versus existence.


It is never between obliteration and existence, it is always between  
good quality of life and bad quality of life.


I realize that the ASSA/RSSA discussion is, after all, related to the  
global warming politics, after all. But not a the decision theoretic  
level (which is 1p, making things complex there).


If people have to understand comp to have the right common sense  
politics, then we are doomed!


No worry, that's not entirely the case.

Ironically, those NOT understanding comp (like Brent) are correct on  
the political decision (manage better the CO2 emission). That's  
correct, for an invalid reason, ...


Bruno






Mitch
-Original Message-
From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

Thus said, because there are eternal laws, there are eternal truths.  
For the materialists, Konrad Lorenz said something extraordinarily  
profound that connect two universes of knowledge: The Kantian  
apriori of knowledge have been inserted in our brain/mind/soul by  
evolution in the form of intuitions, processing of the senses  and  
other instinctive elements without which not only knowledge but  
existence would be impossible.  They are US in a literal sense.


That means that the eternal truths are around us, but primarily  
also  in ourselves, in this instinctive knowledge gained trough  
evolution, about ourselves, about others and about the world. It  
includes from the very basic: the perception of space and time, that  
Roger talk about from time to time, to  the commons sense to the the  
highest truths about what is good and what is bad.



2013/11/12 spudboy...@aol.com
I agree and understand, Alberto, with your elegy.

Mitch
-Original Message-
From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:42 am
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

To spudboy:

Reason alone does`n move to anything, not even to knowledge. If you  
think that your passions are bad for looking for the truth, you are  
wrong. What you must say is that some passions are an obstacle for  
other higher passions, for example the passion of using the reason  
to reach the truth.


But truth is ever constitutionally instrumental, it is ever  
passional, because the ultimate arbiter  of truth in the most deep  
of our mind (brain if you like) is a switch that is activated by  
different stimulus that are unavoidably passional, because that is  
in our own nature, architecture of the mind, or whathever you may  
call it, in the light of experience, philosophy or evolutionary  
science, the ultimate legitimizer of truth is passional.


Or in physico-mathematical terms, truth is whathever that maintain  
us, and ours away from entropic obliteration,



2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote:




From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com 
] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal

Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


A Grand Council of Truth?


Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being  
able to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple,  
if they were not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that.


Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often  
driven by them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if  
we are honest with ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions  
(no shame  no blame) We are so wrapped up in all of this that it  
drives us to hotly deny that anything of the sort could possibly be  
so; we cannot even begin admitting to it. Naturally there is a  
whole range of personality types along the spectrum; perhaps some  
humans have transcended it all… they say Buddha did, but the rest  
of us to one degree or another suffer from our own blind failings.
It is a struggle within sometimes to not fall into these all too  
easy to fall into habits and their blind unthinking way of  
supplying the mind with readymade answers. This very quick, but  
unthinking mechanism makes sense in a field survival situation,  
where there is no time for thought to slow down response. Just some  
cardinal trigger and there is an immediate amplification of the  
signal in the brain and an immediate zoom to the fore of our minds.  
Often, especially in situations, such as can develop on internet  
discussion groups, primitive instincts take over – I have seen it,  
so have you, so has everyone here. Passion can drive instinctive  
behavioral modes to the fore. Re

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread LizR
On 13 November 2013 22:06, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote:

 On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
  On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
 
  if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a
  clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please.
 
 
  The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need.
 
  Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the
  sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or
  warfare we'd have this sorted by next week.

 I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent
 this. I also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse
 of human potential and that great things could be achieved instead.

 Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at
 the moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil
 fuels being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the
 scale of the problem and the limitations of current technology. We
 have a world population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I
 was born, in 1976. It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and
 this is an important part of the equation. Ultimately, the world's
 energy budget is mostly spent on providing basic necessities to all of
 these people. Food, heating, health care, schools and so on. I'm not
 arguing that the resources are correctly distributed, but I am arguing
 that this is what we mostly use the energy for. A lot of energy. The
 large chunk of it currently comes from oil, coal and natural gas.


Not just that. A lot of fertiliser is made from oil, apparently, so we are
literally eating the stuff too.


 So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar
 panels are based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of
 silicon available might not be enough for the total solar panel
 surface area that we would need to remove our dependency on fossil
 fuels. In fact, some people are suggesting that we already reached
 peak silicon.


There are already carbon based solar panels, plus silicon itself is cheap,
cheap, cheap - another name for it is sand! :)

The point is that technology can also go exponential. Solar panels have
been dropping in price and becoming easier to produce for the last couple
of decades. Cell phones are already revolutionising third world
agriculture, because they are now so cheap to produce. With any luck (or
rather tech) solar panels will continue to drop in price and become easier
to produce and use - panels you can put on your windows and run a wire
from, panels that can be put onto the sides of office buildings, etc. The
great thing is there is far more solar power available than we need.

(The next step is to use solar power to extract carbon from the air...)

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread LizR
Wikipedia on the price of solar panels. The last sentence shows the
Moore's law type trend which I hope will continue.

Average pricing information divides in three pricing categories: those
buying small quantities (modules of all sizes in the kilowatt range
annually), mid-range buyers (typically up to 10
MWphttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MWpannually), and large quantity
buyers (self-explanatory—and with access to
the lowest prices). Over the long term there is clearly a systematic
reduction in the price of cells and modules. For example in 2012 it was
estimated that the quantity cost per watt was about $0.60, which was 250
times lower than the cost in 1970 of
$150.[21]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_panels#cite_note-21
[22] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_panels#cite_note-22

Some sunny countries have already reached grid parity where solar power
is as cheap as mains power. If the downward price trend continues solar
will soon become the best option for everything except transport (assuming
it can be put into a grid and sent where needed, that is, otherwise it will
be the best option while the sun is shining or some has been stored).

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Bruno.
Thanks for your measured style and your gentle responses, as always.

But the prevention principle, that has been incorporated to the French
Constitution a few years ago, has disastrous consequences. We have only one
planet. But we have only one France. And we have only one life. And we have
many young people, but all and veryone are unique. By the principle of
prevention, the slightest hint that some activity can be dangerous for such
a long list of things and a lot more,  then this activity should be stopped
or severely regulated by adequately paid bureaucrats.

 Who decide what and how to regulate? Response: the enlightened ones.  Not
the scientists, but the ones aware of COMP 1p and 3p.

Comrades, the future is ours.
And meekerdb after a two days course about 1p-3p, could join the
avant-garde of the COMP manifesto. for the well being for all the planet!


2013/11/13 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be


 On 12 Nov 2013, at 22:47, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

  Indeed. I look at things a bit different, perhaps. then yourself. I see
 it, us, as being set against obliteration versus existence.


 It is never between obliteration and existence, it is always between good
 quality of life and bad quality of life.

 I realize that the ASSA/RSSA discussion is, after all, related to the
 global warming politics, after all. But not a the decision theoretic level
 (which is 1p, making things complex there).

 If people have to understand comp to have the right common sense politics,
 then we are doomed!

 No worry, that's not entirely the case.

 Ironically, those NOT understanding comp (like Brent) are correct on the
 political decision (manage better the CO2 emission). That's correct, for an
 invalid reason, ...

 Bruno





 Mitch
   -Original Message-
 From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:12 pm
 Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

  Thus said, because there are eternal laws, there are eternal truths. For
 the materialists, Konrad Lorenz said something extraordinarily profound
 that connect two universes of knowledge: The Kantian apriori of knowledge
 have been inserted in our brain/mind/soul by evolution in the form of
 intuitions, processing of the senses  and other instinctive elements
 without which not only knowledge but existence would be impossible.  They
 are US in a literal sense.

  That means that the eternal truths are around us, but primarily also  in
 ourselves, in this instinctive knowledge gained trough evolution, about
 ourselves, about others and about the world. It includes from the very
 basic: the perception of space and time, that Roger talk about from time to
 time, to  the commons sense to the the highest truths about what is good
 and what is bad.


 2013/11/12 spudboy...@aol.com

  I agree and understand, Alberto, with your elegy.

 Mitch
   -Original Message-
 From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:42 am
 Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

  To spudboy:

  Reason alone does`n move to anything, not even to knowledge. If you
 think that your passions are bad for looking for the truth, you are wrong.
 What you must say is that some passions are an obstacle for other higher
 passions, for example the passion of using the reason to reach the truth.

  But truth is ever constitutionally instrumental, it is ever passional,
 because the ultimate arbiter  of truth in the most deep of our mind (brain
 if you like) is a switch that is activated by different stimulus that are
 unavoidably passional, because that is in our own nature, architecture of
 the mind, or whathever you may call it, in the light of experience,
 philosophy or evolutionary science, the ultimate legitimizer of truth is
 passional.

  Or in physico-mathematical terms, truth is whathever that maintain us,
 and ours away from entropic obliteration,


 2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be


  On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote:



  *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [
 mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.comeverything-list@googlegroups.com
 ] *On Behalf Of *Bruno Marchal
 *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM
 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


   On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


  A Grand Council of Truth?


  Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able
 to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were
 not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that.

 Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often
 driven by them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if we are
 honest with ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no shame  no
 blame) We are so wrapped up in all of this that it drives us to hotly deny
 that anything of the sort could possibly be so

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 10:18 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 13 November 2013 22:06, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote:

 On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
  On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
 
  if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a
  clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please.
 
 
  The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need.
 
  Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the
  sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or
  warfare we'd have this sorted by next week.

 I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent
 this. I also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse
 of human potential and that great things could be achieved instead.

 Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at
 the moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil
 fuels being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the
 scale of the problem and the limitations of current technology. We
 have a world population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I
 was born, in 1976. It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and
 this is an important part of the equation. Ultimately, the world's
 energy budget is mostly spent on providing basic necessities to all of
 these people. Food, heating, health care, schools and so on. I'm not
 arguing that the resources are correctly distributed, but I am arguing
 that this is what we mostly use the energy for. A lot of energy. The
 large chunk of it currently comes from oil, coal and natural gas.


 Not just that. A lot of fertiliser is made from oil, apparently, so we are
 literally eating the stuff too.


 So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar
 panels are based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of
 silicon available might not be enough for the total solar panel
 surface area that we would need to remove our dependency on fossil
 fuels. In fact, some people are suggesting that we already reached
 peak silicon.


 There are already carbon based solar panels,

Cool.

 plus silicon itself is cheap,
 cheap, cheap - another name for it is sand! :)

Ok but you have to heat the sand in furnaces to more than 2,000°C. And
transport the sand and so on. It's the fossil fuels that make these
things cheap. I'm not saying that they cannot also be cheap with
sustainable energy sources, I'm arguing that it's not trivial to
bootstrap the transition, and that in fact it might be terribly hard.
I really want it to be possible, by the way. I'm not arguing against
the desirability of the goal.

 The point is that technology can also go exponential.

I agree. I tend to put more faith in technology than politics, but
recent events also made me more aware of the unintended consequences
of technology. I was an Internet utopian and now I'm a bit depressed,
for example :)

 Solar panels have been
 dropping in price and becoming easier to produce for the last couple of
 decades. Cell phones are already revolutionising third world agriculture,
 because they are now so cheap to produce. With any luck (or rather tech)
 solar panels will continue to drop in price and become easier to produce and
 use - panels you can put on your windows and run a wire from, panels that
 can be put onto the sides of office buildings, etc. The great thing is there
 is far more solar power available than we need.

This is all true, but it is also true that we currently run on fossil
fuels and this is the energy source we have available to bootstrap the
next stage, barring a catastrophic level of human suffering. Or there
could be a major technological breakthrough, as you say. I am
skeptical of idea that the fossil fuel feudal lords are hiding this
tech from us. Not because they are not sufficiently evil, but because
there would be too much money to be made by other feudal lords by
adopting it. In fact, if my understanding of geopolitics is correct,
the western elites would probably prefer to be less dependent on arab
countries for their energy needs.

I could be completely wrong, and am more than willing to be corrected.

Telmo.

 (The next step is to use solar power to extract carbon from the air...)

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 13 Nov 2013, at 10:32, Alberto G. Corona wrote:


Bruno.
Thanks for your measured style and your gentle responses, as always.

But the prevention principle, that has been incorporated to the  
French Constitution a few years ago, has disastrous consequences. We  
have only one planet. But we have only one France.


The planet is our home to all of us. France is not.
I have been very angry that a country put the precaution principle in  
the constitution.






And we have only one life.


(That's not obvious, and probably wrong, but not relevant in this  
issue).




And we have many young people, but all and veryone are unique. By  
the principle of prevention, the slightest hint that some activity  
can be dangerous for such a long list of things and a lot more,   
then this activity should be stopped or severely regulated by  
adequately paid bureaucrats.


I am just saying that if we can do something less GLOBALLY  
irreversible, then we should follow the alternative.






 Who decide what and how to regulate? Response: the enlightened  
ones.  Not the scientists, but the ones aware of COMP 1p and 3p.


Comrades, the future is ours.
And meekerdb after a two days course about 1p-3p, could join the  
avant-garde of the COMP manifesto. for the well being for all the  
planet!


Actually it is very complex, and very simple. I believe that the  
entire economical and possible ecological crisis is not due to  
capitalism, nor to democracies freedom, but is due to unscrupulous  
bandits.


The FDA approved genetically modified crops. Good news, why not if it  
can help us and our children, but the FDA lied about cannabis for many  
years, so how could I trust them?


It is a big problem because the value of money is based on two things:  
no duplication (that why virtual coin needs cryptography), and trust.


As long as cannabis is not made legal, with some apology, how could I  
trust politicians on *any* subject, beyond the obvious?


Also, I am against prohibition of any products, including oil, but  
prohibition of hemp has lead to making oil quasi obligatory.
So the problem is not oil (and fossil fuel),  the problem is the  
unfair competition brought by people having private interest, and the  
disinformation they have spread and are still spreading.


Bruno



http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Alberto G. Corona
I would be easy to make a joke of your comments about cannabis, but it
would not have been fair.

But If I take it seriously, I  can not figh both conspiranoic theories in
the same thread.  The deniers of global warming hell and the deniers of
cannabis heaven.  It´s too much for me.


2013/11/13 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be


 On 13 Nov 2013, at 10:32, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

  Bruno.
 Thanks for your measured style and your gentle responses, as always.

 But the prevention principle, that has been incorporated to the French
 Constitution a few years ago, has disastrous consequences. We have only one
 planet. But we have only one France.


 The planet is our home to all of us. France is not.
 I have been very angry that a country put the precaution principle in the
 constitution.





  And we have only one life.


 (That's not obvious, and probably wrong, but not relevant in this issue).




  And we have many young people, but all and veryone are unique. By the
 principle of prevention, the slightest hint that some activity can be
 dangerous for such a long list of things and a lot more,  then this
 activity should be stopped or severely regulated by adequately paid
 bureaucrats.


 I am just saying that if we can do something less GLOBALLY irreversible,
 then we should follow the alternative.





  Who decide what and how to regulate? Response: the enlightened ones.
  Not the scientists, but the ones aware of COMP 1p and 3p.

 Comrades, the future is ours.
 And meekerdb after a two days course about 1p-3p, could join the
 avant-garde of the COMP manifesto. for the well being for all the planet!


 Actually it is very complex, and very simple. I believe that the entire
 economical and possible ecological crisis is not due to capitalism, nor to
 democracies freedom, but is due to unscrupulous bandits.

 The FDA approved genetically modified crops. Good news, why not if it can
 help us and our children, but the FDA lied about cannabis for many years,
 so how could I trust them?

 It is a big problem because the value of money is based on two things: no
 duplication (that why virtual coin needs cryptography), and trust.

 As long as cannabis is not made legal, with some apology, how could I
 trust politicians on *any* subject, beyond the obvious?

 Also, I am against prohibition of any products, including oil, but
 prohibition of hemp has lead to making oil quasi obligatory.
 So the problem is not oil (and fossil fuel),  the problem is the unfair
 competition brought by people having private interest, and the
 disinformation they have spread and are still spreading.


 Bruno



 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread spudboy100

I get your point completely. The financial motivation, is, of course, always 
there. My point is, if this easily, doable,
somebody on Earth somewhere, would fling their middle finger to the oil 
companies direction, by building and supporting an example. My belief is that 
going solar is a very, hard, technical, problem to resolve. That somebody in 
Japan, China, Israel, Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia, India, Argentina, Australia, 
in Essex, in France, Switzerland, would have constructed such a system already. 
If it was easy problem, I wouldn't be so belligerent, on getting this right. I 
would concede that solar is on its way, so what am I bitching about? You are 
asking to shut off the dirty stuff quickly, and I am saying don't do it, unless 
we have replacement source, at the ready. 

Mitch



-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:49 pm
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


On 13 November 2013 10:55,  spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a clean, 
affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please. 







The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need.


Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the sort 
of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or warfare we'd 
have this sorted by next week.

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 2:39 PM,  spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
 I get your point completely. The financial motivation, is, of course, always
 there. My point is, if this easily, doable,
 somebody on Earth somewhere, would fling their middle finger to the oil
 companies direction, by building and supporting an example. My belief is
 that going solar is a very, hard, technical, problem to resolve. That
 somebody in Japan, China, Israel, Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia, India,
 Argentina, Australia, in Essex, in France, Switzerland, would have
 constructed such a system already. If it was easy problem, I wouldn't be so
 belligerent, on getting this right. I would concede that solar is on its
 way, so what am I bitching about? You are asking to shut off the dirty stuff
 quickly, and I am saying don't do it, unless we have replacement source, at
 the ready.

Exactly.

 Mitch

 -Original Message-
 From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:49 pm
 Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a
 clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please.


 The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need.

 Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the
 sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or
 warfare we'd have this sorted by next week.
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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread meekerdb

On 11/13/2013 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 12 Nov 2013, at 22:10, Alberto G. Corona wrote:






As human beings they were reluctant to provide hard earned data to those 
who had
proved to mere critics - like you - with no interest but to spread doubt.

Can ever have been a more clear confession of sectarianism ? Doubt about what? about 
what yours affirm that is truth and must be taken as face value?  Is that the new 
conception of science  and the one that Popper et al teach to me is ourdated?


Global warning cannot be a question of science.


?? We only know it exists because of science.

It is a question of mondial/global politics, and in this case I believe that even few 
evidence for some something irreversible and possibly fatal for a planet should be 
avoided when possible.


That's why science is of no direct use in politics. Science is doubt, and politics is 
decision. I use that argument to defend an ecological and economical precaution 
principle valid in global planetary decision which might be irreversible and possibly 
lethal, but also for positive decision like investing on asteroids and the means to 
deviate them.


When science is directly used in politics, it becomes pseudo-religious crap.
We *have to* take care of the planet, simply. It is not a question of surviving, but of 
quality of life.


(That's why also global warming is way out of topics ...: it is a matter of voting and 
politicians). As you said (I think) science must be separated from politics (in the two 
senses).



But both global warming and asteroid strikes are something we know about only through 
science.  You seems to imply that science should not inform political action?  Then how 
else can political action be informed?


Brent

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RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Chris de Morsella
Such nastiness – it only makes you come across as highly unpleasant, which
perhaps you, in fact are.

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 12:17 AM
To: everything-list
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

Of course comrade.

Why don´t you translate to Europe? Here our party is not only in the
University, but in the media too. Here the truth is said: Every disaster is
a product of greedy American capitalism, or barbarious zionism. But better
though, We need you there in the Capitalist land. 

 

Salam alecum. 

 

This was sent from my Iphone

 

2013/11/13 LizR lizj...@gmail.com

On 12 November 2013 22:56, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:

 

This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was publised
in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was perverted
by the deniers? I have no option  but to think that you believe en evil
deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming apocalypse.  And
you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black magic, I will appear in
your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me.

 

Or you could look at TV advertising, with big expensive ads for cars, or at
the paper with pull out sections which are trying to sell cars, or you could
look at the TV news, which despite reporting virtually a new climate related
disaster every week now, hardly ever mentions that it might be linked to
global warming (unless it's to point out that no single storn can be
directly linked to global warming - the only mention I've heard recently).
Now add up how many people read science magazines and how many watch car
adverts on TV.

 

Now maybe you can see who is in charge of shaping our opinions.

 

When car ads are banned, as cigarette ads are, there may be some tiny amount
of truth in what you say. (Although by the time that happens, Auckland will
probably be underwater.)

 

But until then, the deniers are firmly in control.

 

 

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RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Chris de Morsella


-Original Message-
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:07 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide 
 a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please.


 The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need.

 Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given 
 the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space 
 race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week.

I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent this. I
also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse of human
potential and that great things could be achieved instead.

Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at the
moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil fuels
being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the scale of the
problem and the limitations of current technology. We have a world
population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I was born, in 1976.
It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and this is an important part of
the equation. Ultimately, the world's energy budget is mostly spent on
providing basic necessities to all of these people. Food, heating, health
care, schools and so on. I'm not arguing that the resources are correctly
distributed, but I am arguing that this is what we mostly use the energy
for. A lot of energy. The large chunk of it currently comes from oil, coal
and natural gas.

So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar panels are
based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of silicon
available might not be enough for the total solar panel surface area that we
would need to remove our dependency on fossil fuels. In fact, some people
are suggesting that we already reached peak silicon.

Another other issue is energy efficiency. Mining the raw materials and then
transforming them into solar panels takes a certain energy budget. Then
these panels last for some years. Then you have to build new ones. The more
you remove fossil fuel from the equation, the more you have to rely on the
solar panels energy to pay for the energy budget of the next generation.
Notice that you also have to store a lot of energy because of seasonal
effects, day an night and so on.
This takes some sort of capacitor with its own energy budget. I don't think
it's clear that all this could become self-sustainable with our current
technology. Remember that we still have to provide for the 7 billion humans
while paying these energy investments -- and I mean paying in terms of
energy, doesn't matter if we're under cut-throat capitalism or a socialist
utopia, this economic fact remains.

In fact, defeating our dependency on fossil fuels and curbing our CO2
emissions are antagonistic goals. To bootstrap the great solar panel farm we
need a lot of energy upfront. The faster you want to do it, the more of this
energy has to come from fossil fuels. Then you have two options: increase
CO2 emissions or use energy that you would normally use to keep the 7
billion people alive. The faster you do it and the more you rely on the
second option, the more human suffering you will cause. We're mot talking
about trivial inconveniences either, we're talking about millions and
millions dying from starvation, cold and disease. It is tempting to assume
that we can go back to a simpler lifestyle and make do with less, but this
regards that the current carrying capacity was made possible by the energy
budget provided by fossil fuels. Before the energy revolution there were
orders of magnitude less human beings on earth, and the complexity of human
society was much lower. Organising 7 billion people to live somewhat
peacefully on a small planet is no trivial matter. You cannot disregard
economic and social effects. We are not talking about some tribe here. A bit
of politics, sorry -- part of the reason I am for less government is that I
think that this level of complexity vastly outgrown human intelligence.
Nobody can manage this, it has to be self-organising to a large degree. And
it is. Where there is more central control, there is also more human
suffering, case in point:
China. They had to resort to enforcing a child birth budget to manage both
the energy budget and the complexity.

The same principles apply to wind power and all other renewable source we
know of. They have horrible efficiency compared to fossil -- efficiency as
in energy investments required vs. total yield. A technology breakthrough
could change things, but then we're relying on something that might not even
be possible.

Well said, and I agree with everything

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2013/11/13 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com

 Such nastiness – it only makes you come across as highly unpleasant, which
 perhaps you, in fact are.



Come on...

You jumped of from your black helicopter and other than that you have
nothing smart to say.





*From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alberto G. Corona
 *Sent:* Wednesday, November 13, 2013 12:17 AM
 *To:* everything-list

 *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World



 Of course comrade.

 Why don´t you translate to Europe? Here our party is not only in the
 University, but in the media too. Here the truth is said: Every disaster is
 a product of greedy American capitalism, or barbarious zionism. But better
 though, We need you there in the Capitalist land.



 Salam alecum.



 This was sent from my Iphone



 2013/11/13 LizR lizj...@gmail.com

 On 12 November 2013 22:56, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:



 This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was publised
 in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was
 perverted by the deniers? I have no option  but to think that you believe
 en evil deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming
 apocalypse.  And you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black
 magic, I will appear in your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me.



 Or you could look at TV advertising, with big expensive ads for cars, or
 at the paper with pull out sections which are trying to sell cars, or you
 could look at the TV news, which despite reporting virtually a new climate
 related disaster every week now, hardly ever mentions that it might be
 linked to global warming (unless it's to point out that no single storn
 can be directly linked to global warming - the only mention I've heard
 recently). Now add up how many people read science magazines and how many
 watch car adverts on TV.



 Now maybe you can see who is in charge of shaping our opinions.



 When car ads are banned, as cigarette ads are, there may be some tiny
 amount of truth in what you say. (Although by the time *that* happens,
 Auckland will probably be underwater.)



 But until then, the deniers are firmly in control.





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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread meekerdb

On 11/13/2013 1:06 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at
the moment.


I don't know what you mean by this?  Are you implying that it is like teleportation or 
interstellar space flight?  Those are things that we don't know how to do.  But solar 
power is everywhere and we've known how to do it for a long time.  It's just not the 
common source of power because fossil fuel is cheaper (assuming you don't pay for the side 
effects) and more convenient.  As Liz says, if we put the effort into it that we've put 
into war we could replace all fossil fuel generation of electricity in a couple of decades.


Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread meekerdb

On 11/13/2013 2:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
That is not bad in principle, is what is it and is human nature. But in  anomial 
societies like the modern West, where the small comunities were  lost time ago, and the 
christian faith that created a big sense of comunity for all the West also has been 
lost, drive many desperate people, fundamentally ateistic or agnostic to coalesce around 
whatever crazy idea that a leader or group of authorities tell to him.


Crazy ideas like freedom of conscience, private enterprise, preserving the 
environment...instead of those great old theistic ideas like ignorance, faith, piety, and 
burning heretics.


Brent
True, secular values can turn a civilization inside out. In post-Christian Europe, entire 
nations have been plunged into endemic health, skyrocketing education and hopelessly low 
rates of violent crime.

--- Austin Dacey, NY Times 3 Feb 2006

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread meekerdb

On 11/13/2013 2:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Also, I am against prohibition of any products, including oil, but prohibition of hemp 
has lead to making oil quasi obligatory.
So the problem is not oil (and fossil fuel),  the problem is the unfair competition 
brought by people having private interest, and the disinformation they have spread and 
are still spreading. 


You think we could power modern society by burning hemp??  The fossil fuel industry is not 
run by bandits, just by people who want to make money by providing energy to people who 
will pay for it.  The problem is that there are global environmental side effects which 
were not appreciated before the development of a huge infrastructure based on fossil 
fuel...and the cost of mitigating these side effects has not been paid by the users.  It's 
a tragedy of the commons.


Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread spudboy100

Interesting paper, except the Limits to Growth hypothesis is likely remediated 
by changing economics and changing tech. There was a bet 30 years ago by Paul 
Erhlich of The Population Bomb fame, and the guy who wrote Infinite Resources. 
The later one, based on the coast of raw materials in 20 year. $1000.00 prize 
and Ehrlich paid up. The solar problem seems very hard, despite great advances 
in graphene solar cells. One problem is storage. One possible answer is oceanic 
hydro-electric, specifically pumped storage-or it may be a wash out? According 
to Gerard O'Neil, at Princeton, observed Scientists often over estimate the 
impact of breakthroughs and under estimate the impact of straight forward 
advances on what we already know. Maybe pumped storage at the sea side is one 
of these? We now know the impact of 3D printing, seemingly out of no where. 

Mitch


-Original Message-
From: Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 13, 2013 4:06 am
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a
 clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please.


 The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need.

 Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the
 sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or
 warfare we'd have this sorted by next week.

I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent
this. I also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse
of human potential and that great things could be achieved instead.

Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at
the moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil
fuels being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the
scale of the problem and the limitations of current technology. We
have a world population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I
was born, in 1976. It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and
this is an important part of the equation. Ultimately, the world's
energy budget is mostly spent on providing basic necessities to all of
these people. Food, heating, health care, schools and so on. I'm not
arguing that the resources are correctly distributed, but I am arguing
that this is what we mostly use the energy for. A lot of energy. The
large chunk of it currently comes from oil, coal and natural gas.

So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar
panels are based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of
silicon available might not be enough for the total solar panel
surface area that we would need to remove our dependency on fossil
fuels. In fact, some people are suggesting that we already reached
peak silicon.

Another other issue is energy efficiency. Mining the raw materials and
then transforming them into solar panels takes a certain energy
budget. Then these panels last for some years. Then you have to build
new ones. The more you remove fossil fuel from the equation, the more
you have to rely on the solar panels energy to pay for the energy
budget of the next generation. Notice that you also have to store a
lot of energy because of seasonal effects, day an night and so on.
This takes some sort of capacitor with its own energy budget. I don't
think it's clear that all this could become self-sustainable with our
current technology. Remember that we still have to provide for the 7
billion humans while paying these energy investments -- and I mean
paying in terms of energy, doesn't matter if we're under cut-throat
capitalism or a socialist utopia, this economic fact remains.

In fact, defeating our dependency on fossil fuels and curbing our CO2
emissions are antagonistic goals. To bootstrap the great solar panel
farm we need a lot of energy upfront. The faster you want to do it,
the more of this energy has to come from fossil fuels. Then you have
two options: increase CO2 emissions or use energy that you would
normally use to keep the 7 billion people alive. The faster you do it
and the more you rely on the second option, the more human suffering
you will cause. We're mot talking about trivial inconveniences either,
we're talking about millions and millions dying from starvation, cold
and disease. It is tempting to assume that we can go back to a simpler
lifestyle and make do with less, but this regards that the current
carrying capacity was made possible by the energy budget provided by
fossil fuels. Before the energy revolution there were orders of
magnitude less human beings on earth, and the complexity of human
society was much lower. Organising 7 billion people to live somewhat
peacefully on a small planet is no trivial matter. You cannot
disregard economic and social effects. We are not talking

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 13 Nov 2013, at 12:54, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

I would be easy to make a joke of your comments about cannabis, but  
it would not have been fair.


No problem.





But If I take it seriously, I  can not figh both conspiranoic  
theories in the same thread.


Thanks for not using the conspiracy theory label, which nowadays  
means crackpot.

(Conspirators can only be happy!)



The deniers of global warming hell and the deniers of cannabis  
heaven.  It´s too much for me.



No, it is that in both cases some evidences add up, and the people are  
more and more to share their views, and propose a different theory.


Concerning the plant, there are evidences that cannabis can cure about  
2000 diseases, and that its inebriation is well, infinitely less  
fatal, than aspirin, chocolate, alcohol or even water. There are  
evidences that all proofs of its danger contains (gross) misuses of  
logic and statistics.


Concerning the planet, I invite you to look at diverse crash  
investigation, especially when the pilot is in a tempest, and got  
contradictory informations. Some crash occurs because the pilot is too  
proud to believe the copilot, especially if the machine is on his side!


I am not an expert in climate. And given the existence of fear selling  
(war on drugs, perhaps the war on terror too, since the NDAA 12, signs  
grows in that direction), I am not so much for the prohibition of the  
free use of petrol, but we have to avoid to intoxicate ourself by  
negligence of addiction, be it oil, alcohol, or whatever.


I believe that by the legalization of all products, with better  
enforcement on traceability, origin, transparency, warning of the  
known and plausible secondary effects, education, ... would permit a  
more naturally regulated self-moderation leading to a big harm  
reduction. The planet and the individuals, suffer from the lies and  
propaganda of some special interests who corrupt power to develop  
unfair competition.


What is legal? Guns, oil, car, tobacco, alcohol, those things kill a  
lot, and none are/were really necessary.
What is illegal? Hemp, Tabernanthe iboga, magic mushrooms, LSD, ...  
Without any argument that they lead to serious problem, when used with  
moderation and responsibility, following the user guide.


Legalize all of those stuff, and tax proportionally to the real  
troubles. People are not stupid, they will adapt convenably.
(That's the fatal error of the bandits, they bet on the stupidity and  
invest a lot in it, but eventually that is unaffordable, and that is  
why I am optimistic in the long run, but still sad for all those who  
already suffer from the consequences of the lies).


Bruno












2013/11/13 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

On 13 Nov 2013, at 10:32, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

Bruno.
Thanks for your measured style and your gentle responses, as always.

But the prevention principle, that has been incorporated to the  
French Constitution a few years ago, has disastrous consequences. We  
have only one planet. But we have only one France.


The planet is our home to all of us. France is not.
I have been very angry that a country put the precaution principle  
in the constitution.






And we have only one life.

(That's not obvious, and probably wrong, but not relevant in this  
issue).





And we have many young people, but all and veryone are unique. By  
the principle of prevention, the slightest hint that some activity  
can be dangerous for such a long list of things and a lot more,   
then this activity should be stopped or severely regulated by  
adequately paid bureaucrats.


I am just saying that if we can do something less GLOBALLY  
irreversible, then we should follow the alternative.






 Who decide what and how to regulate? Response: the enlightened  
ones.  Not the scientists, but the ones aware of COMP 1p and 3p.


Comrades, the future is ours.
And meekerdb after a two days course about 1p-3p, could join the  
avant-garde of the COMP manifesto. for the well being for all the  
planet!


Actually it is very complex, and very simple. I believe that the  
entire economical and possible ecological crisis is not due to  
capitalism, nor to democracies freedom, but is due to unscrupulous  
bandits.


The FDA approved genetically modified crops. Good news, why not if  
it can help us and our children, but the FDA lied about cannabis for  
many years, so how could I trust them?


It is a big problem because the value of money is based on two  
things: no duplication (that why virtual coin needs cryptography),  
and trust.


As long as cannabis is not made legal, with some apology, how could  
I trust politicians on *any* subject, beyond the obvious?


Also, I am against prohibition of any products, including oil, but  
prohibition of hemp has lead to making oil quasi obligatory.
So the problem is not oil (and fossil fuel),  the problem is the  
unfair competition brought by people having private interest, and  
the 

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Alberto G. Corona
A few moments ago I though: For sure meekerdeb will attack with one of
their standard  two-line mini-rant snippets that cut and paste
everywhere

And here it is.

Chris at least spend a bit more effort before his final attack with his
black helicopters


2013/11/13 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

  On 11/13/2013 2:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

 That is not bad in principle, is what is it and is human nature. But in
  anomial societies like the modern West, where the small comunities were
  lost time ago, and the christian faith that created a big sense of
 comunity for all the West also has been lost, drive many desperate people,
 fundamentally ateistic or agnostic to coalesce around whatever crazy idea
 that a leader or group of authorities tell to him.


 Crazy ideas like freedom of conscience, private enterprise, preserving the
 environment...instead of those great old theistic ideas like ignorance,
 faith, piety, and burning heretics.

 Brent
 True, secular values can turn a civilization inside out. In
 post-Christian Europe, entire nations have been plunged into endemic
 health, skyrocketing education and hopelessly low rates of violent crime.
 --- Austin Dacey, NY Times 3 Feb 2006

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 5:51 PM, Chris de Morsella
cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote:


 -Original Message-
 From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes
 Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:07 AM
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide
 a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please.


 The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need.

 Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given
 the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space
 race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week.

 I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent this. I
 also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse of human
 potential and that great things could be achieved instead.

 Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at the
 moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil fuels
 being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the scale of the
 problem and the limitations of current technology. We have a world
 population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I was born, in 1976.
 It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and this is an important part of
 the equation. Ultimately, the world's energy budget is mostly spent on
 providing basic necessities to all of these people. Food, heating, health
 care, schools and so on. I'm not arguing that the resources are correctly
 distributed, but I am arguing that this is what we mostly use the energy
 for. A lot of energy. The large chunk of it currently comes from oil, coal
 and natural gas.

 So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar panels are
 based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of silicon
 available might not be enough for the total solar panel surface area that we
 would need to remove our dependency on fossil fuels. In fact, some people
 are suggesting that we already reached peak silicon.

 Another other issue is energy efficiency. Mining the raw materials and then
 transforming them into solar panels takes a certain energy budget. Then
 these panels last for some years. Then you have to build new ones. The more
 you remove fossil fuel from the equation, the more you have to rely on the
 solar panels energy to pay for the energy budget of the next generation.
 Notice that you also have to store a lot of energy because of seasonal
 effects, day an night and so on.
 This takes some sort of capacitor with its own energy budget. I don't think
 it's clear that all this could become self-sustainable with our current
 technology. Remember that we still have to provide for the 7 billion humans
 while paying these energy investments -- and I mean paying in terms of
 energy, doesn't matter if we're under cut-throat capitalism or a socialist
 utopia, this economic fact remains.

 In fact, defeating our dependency on fossil fuels and curbing our CO2
 emissions are antagonistic goals. To bootstrap the great solar panel farm we
 need a lot of energy upfront. The faster you want to do it, the more of this
 energy has to come from fossil fuels. Then you have two options: increase
 CO2 emissions or use energy that you would normally use to keep the 7
 billion people alive. The faster you do it and the more you rely on the
 second option, the more human suffering you will cause. We're mot talking
 about trivial inconveniences either, we're talking about millions and
 millions dying from starvation, cold and disease. It is tempting to assume
 that we can go back to a simpler lifestyle and make do with less, but this
 regards that the current carrying capacity was made possible by the energy
 budget provided by fossil fuels. Before the energy revolution there were
 orders of magnitude less human beings on earth, and the complexity of human
 society was much lower. Organising 7 billion people to live somewhat
 peacefully on a small planet is no trivial matter. You cannot disregard
 economic and social effects. We are not talking about some tribe here. A bit
 of politics, sorry -- part of the reason I am for less government is that I
 think that this level of complexity vastly outgrown human intelligence.
 Nobody can manage this, it has to be self-organising to a large degree. And
 it is. Where there is more central control, there is also more human
 suffering, case in point:
 China. They had to resort to enforcing a child birth budget to manage both
 the energy budget and the complexity.

The same principles apply to wind power and all other renewable source we
 know of. They have horrible efficiency compared to fossil -- efficiency as
 in energy investments required vs. total yield. A technology

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread meekerdb

On 11/13/2013 11:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

The catholic and the chihite,


This one: http://lordblumiere.deviantart.com/art/Chihite-Angelorum-61177983

Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-13 Thread meekerdb

On 11/13/2013 12:38 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
What is legal? Guns, oil, car, tobacco, alcohol, those things kill a lot, and none 
are/were really necessary.


Killing people with guns (or otherwise) is generally illegal.  Very few things are 
necessary to live - but many things are desirable.


What is illegal? Hemp, Tabernanthe iboga, magic mushrooms, LSD, ... Without any argument 
that they lead to serious problem, when used with moderation and responsibility, 
following the user guide.


Legalize all of those stuff, and tax proportionally to the real troubles. People are not 
stupid, they will adapt convenably.


Hmm?  How shall we tax proportionately for polluting the atmosphere, the water 
table?

Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 3:30 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 12 November 2013 14:04, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:

 Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk
 of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term
 Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that
 is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with all
 his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales of
 supposed sciences.


 Yes of course.


 If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the
 main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer
 reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of
 mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed
 magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms.

 The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It
 acts as an ideological filter  rather than as a quality filter in every
 discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation
 by interchanging money for ideological ammunition.


Hi Liz,

 So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to
 paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart
 from all the others we've tried.

I don't quite agree with the comparison. I agree with Churchill but I
assume that we will find something better than democracy eventually.
This has always been the case: in many moments in History people
thought that the perfect system was achieved, and then later we look
back and it doesn't look so great. In fact, it is possible that better
alternatives to our current system have already been found. I like the
idea of selecting a government randomly, like it was done in ancient
Athens. Interestingly enough, at that time they seemed to be already
aware of the pitfalls of populist manipulation of public opinion.

The scientific method seems more robust. Science may go through its
dark periods, but sanity can always be recovered later. I would say
that the imperfection of science stems from the fact that it is
carried by humans, and we are flawed. Some obvious things can be
fixed: publish or perish is the wrong incentive. It leads to spamming
of the literature. The fact that many important articles are behind
paywalls is another major problem. One of its most pernicious effects
is that it creates a kind of priesthood that has exclusive access to
knowledge and can develop its own bias and self-protection mechanisms.
This became obvious with the sad Aaron Schwartz incident, and the
violence with which the establishment went after a brilliant young guy
who just wanted to free knowledge, eventually driving him to suicide.
It is perhaps even more serious that we also don't have access to the
raw data used in many studies.

The Internet is already showing a glimpse of what can be achieved.
Many sacred cows have been falling the last few years. Nutrition and
sports is a great example: serious doubts are starting to arise
regarding ideas that were unquestionable not long ago: that
cholesterol is bad, that salt is bad and that stretching before
exercise is good. For example. Even that nicotine is bad in itself.

Telmo.

 You might like to consider that hurricanes and bush fires and rising seas
 and melting glaciers can't be influenced by political opinion, and it would
 take a huge effort to generate the evidence coming in from all over the
 world as part of some vast conspiracy. We're forever hearing about the
 wildest storms, the highest (and lowest) temperatures on record, the
 greatest floods and droughts and so on.

 Is it just possible that the overwhelming mountain of evidence indicates,
 maybe, something is really going on?

 (And by the way, supposing there is no global warming and we go ahead and
 develop sustainable power sources for no reason whatsoever before the oil
 runs out - won't that just be awful?)

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread LizR
Hi Telmo

There maye have been a hint of sarcasm in my comment, to be honest. I don't
think we will better the scientific method, although we may be able to
improve how we implement it, as it were - the human part of the equation.

But I'm glad I stimulated your interesting comments, anyway!

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2013/11/12 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

 On 11/11/2013 5:04 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

 Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk
 of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term
 Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that
 is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with
 all his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales
 of supposed sciences.

 If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the
 main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer
 reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of
 mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed
 magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms.


 Because they had already seen the process being manipulated by the well
 funded Deniers and their political allies.

 This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was publised
in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was
perverted by the deniers? I have no option  but to think that you believe
en evil deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming
apocalypse.  And you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black
magic, I will appear in your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me.



 The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It
 acts as an ideological filter  rather than as a quality filter in every
 discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation
 by interchanging money for ideological ammunition.


 Yes, some scientists might be biased - so we should assumed you deniers
 have the truth on the basis of no evidence except that in the past some
 scientists have been biased.


You have your WW apocalypse, to believe in. But because you will be sooner
or later ridiculed by reality, I recommend you to search for a
replacement.. What about the end of the ozone layer? no..that has been in
fashion time ago but it gains momentum every winter. What about the peak
oil? Nah, fracking ended it,although our ecoalarmist comrades are doing
whatever they can to stop this menace against our beloved apocalypse.  I
recommend you to study the chemtrails. They are the true menace.

End of transmission from Mars. bip bip


 Brent


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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2013/11/12 LizR lizj...@gmail.com

 On 12 November 2013 14:04, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:

 Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk
 of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term
 Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that
 is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with
 all his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales
 of supposed sciences.


 Yes of course.


 If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the
 main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer
 reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of
 mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed
 magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms.

 The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It
 acts as an ideological filter  rather than as a quality filter in every
 discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation
 by interchanging money for ideological ammunition.


 So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to
 paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart
 from all the others we've tried.

 You might like to consider that hurricanes and bush fires and rising seas
 and melting glaciers can't be influenced by political opinion, and it would
 take a huge effort to generate the evidence coming in from all over the
 world as part of some vast conspiracy. We're forever hearing about the
 wildest storms, the highest (and lowest) temperatures on record, the
 greatest floods and droughts and so on.

 Is it just possible that the overwhelming mountain of evidence indicates,
 maybe, something is really going on?

 (And by the way, supposing there is no global warming and we go ahead and
 develop sustainable power sources for no reason whatsoever before the oil
 runs out - won't that just be awful?)


You better read  the mails of the two climategate scandal and conform a
better opinion about the matter than with the bush fires and hurricanes
that the sanitary towell sellers tell you in your dumb box. You can see how
a conspiracy of interests push truth away and replace it with half truths.
That is happening since the human learn to talk and socialize. When the
whole science is perverted because all the laboratories are a single
virtual laboratory, all the model simulations talk together to to adjust
their parameters to reach the same conclussions (up to the decimal level) .
When the measures of tree growth is made by hungry russians that are
ansious to get his money and depend on western scientists that need their
next year grant from politicians that want to see reasons for giving them
millions of dollars, Then there is nothing that may resemble the scientific
method.  It is just bare humans doing whathever they can for their primary
concerns: their famillies, their personal careers and their ambitions as
ever in History. But in some other cases is even more: international crime

-- 

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-- 
Alberto.

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 10:36 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Telmo

 There maye have been a hint of sarcasm in my comment, to be honest.

I suspected as much, but wanted to babble anyway :)

 I don't
 think we will better the scientific method, although we may be able to
 improve how we implement it, as it were - the human part of the equation.

 But I'm glad I stimulated your interesting comments, anyway!

 --
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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Alberto G. Corona
So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to
paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart
from all the others we've tried.

Following your analogy. when the the media, and the politicians
of majority parties form a coalition to defend their own interests, then
you can not have access to the information. You are governed by a
collection of liars and simulators. There is no democracy.

When the science and their media is dominated by a single coalition united
in the mutual interest to increase their budget and they have the
communication means of internet to coordinate in this effort, then there is
no science.

I propose the separation of science and state.


2013/11/12 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com




 2013/11/12 LizR lizj...@gmail.com

 On 12 November 2013 14:04, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:

 Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk
 of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term
 Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that
 is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with
 all his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales
 of supposed sciences.


 Yes of course.


 If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the
 main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer
 reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of
 mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed
 magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms.

 The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It
 acts as an ideological filter  rather than as a quality filter in every
 discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation
 by interchanging money for ideological ammunition.


 So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to
 paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart
 from all the others we've tried.

 You might like to consider that hurricanes and bush fires and rising seas
 and melting glaciers can't be influenced by political opinion, and it would
 take a huge effort to generate the evidence coming in from all over the
 world as part of some vast conspiracy. We're forever hearing about the
 wildest storms, the highest (and lowest) temperatures on record, the
 greatest floods and droughts and so on.

 Is it just possible that the overwhelming mountain of evidence indicates,
 maybe, something is really going on?

 (And by the way, supposing there is no global warming and we go ahead and
 develop sustainable power sources for no reason whatsoever before the oil
 runs out - won't that just be awful?)


 You better read  the mails of the two climategate scandal and conform a
 better opinion about the matter than with the bush fires and hurricanes
 that the sanitary towell sellers tell you in your dumb box. You can see how
 a conspiracy of interests push truth away and replace it with half truths.
 That is happening since the human learn to talk and socialize. When the
 whole science is perverted because all the laboratories are a single
 virtual laboratory, all the model simulations talk together to to adjust
 their parameters to reach the same conclussions (up to the decimal level) .
 When the measures of tree growth is made by hungry russians that are
 ansious to get his money and depend on western scientists that need their
 next year grant from politicians that want to see reasons for giving them
 millions of dollars, Then there is nothing that may resemble the scientific
 method.  It is just bare humans doing whathever they can for their primary
 concerns: their famillies, their personal careers and their ambitions as
 ever in History. But in some other cases is even more: international crime

 --

 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
 Everything List group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
 email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
 Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.




 --
 Alberto.




-- 
Alberto.

-- 
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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote:




From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com 
] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal

Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


A Grand Council of Truth?


Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being  
able to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple,  
if they were not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that.


Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often  
driven by them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if  
we are honest with ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no  
shame  no blame) We are so wrapped up in all of this that it drives  
us to hotly deny that anything of the sort could possibly be so; we  
cannot even begin admitting to it. Naturally there is a whole range  
of personality types along the spectrum; perhaps some humans have  
transcended it all… they say Buddha did, but the rest of us to one  
degree or another suffer from our own blind failings.
It is a struggle within sometimes to not fall into these all too  
easy to fall into habits and their blind unthinking way of supplying  
the mind with readymade answers. This very quick, but unthinking  
mechanism makes sense in a field survival situation, where there is  
no time for thought to slow down response. Just some cardinal  
trigger and there is an immediate amplification of the signal in the  
brain and an immediate zoom to the fore of our minds. Often,  
especially in situations, such as can develop on internet discussion  
groups, primitive instincts take over – I have seen it, so have you,  
so has everyone here. Passion can drive instinctive behavioral modes  
to the fore. Re-learning the inner being living inside the mind is  
rather much a lifelong pursuit – for after all we are a moving  
target, and if we do not keep a certain vigilance we all risk  
falling into habitual modes of mind.


You are right. I think that biological evolution oscillates all the  
time between the selfishness (the self and his/her passions) and  
cooperation (long term sensible and reasonable action). This comes  
from the tension between the 1p and the 3p (Bp  p and Bp). It is very  
complex, and related to the paradox of theology: If everything is  
solved, we can as well kill ourself. There is no simple solution, and  
more than one life is not enough. The correct contemplation-level is  
hard to grasp. But Buddha got it ... allegedly.


Bruno









And, you already know where I am going with this. One night, while  
dining at a restaurant, a good one, the High Reasoner, meets with an  
old friend to discuss the new FIFA rules issued for the World Cup.  
The friend slides over a closed sports magazine. Have a look at  
this article in the middle, here. Inside the magazine is a rather  
thick envelope.

-Original Message-
From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:06 am
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it  
produces nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a  
complete failure.


It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is  
below some level of corruption, in which case you can be  
misinfoirmed, and by not knowing it and being honest, you spread the  
lies and this leads to problem soon or later. Problems comes from  
the liars, but also from the people who have been lied. It is very  
often hard to delineate them.


Bruno





-Original Message-
From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:49 pm
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


On 09 Nov 2013, at 19:09, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


I am emphasizing having governments print out (Keynes style)  
absolutely, colossal, amounts of cash, as a reward for coming up  
with excellent disease treatments and cures, human solar system  
tours, and clean energy solution, environmental remediation. If the  
banks won't fund researchers, then private equity will, if private  
equity won't then a million contributors-open source-will, provided  
they get a cut of the reward offered by a government prize. I  
wouldn't be shocked if you, Professor, Marchal, might summon up 25  
ECU's in exchange for receiving 3000 ECU's or Golden Yuans, in  
payment, 5 years later.



Only if this reflects some honest contracts.

Honesty is not just moral, it is something which elevates a lot  
the real value of money. It generates trust.


Be honest.
If you don't try to be honest for the calm of your conscience, do it  
for the wealth of your children.


Today big corporations are based on lies. That's

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Alberto G. Corona
To spudboy:

Reason alone does`n move to anything, not even to knowledge. If you think
that your passions are bad for looking for the truth, you are wrong. What
you must say is that some passions are an obstacle for other higher
passions, for example the passion of using the reason to reach the truth.

But truth is ever constitutionally instrumental, it is ever passional,
because the ultimate arbiter  of truth in the most deep of our mind (brain
if you like) is a switch that is activated by different stimulus that are
unavoidably passional, because that is in our own nature, architecture of
the mind, or whathever you may call it, in the light of experience,
philosophy or evolutionary science, the ultimate legitimizer of truth is
passional.

Or in physico-mathematical terms, truth is whathever that maintain us, and
ours away from entropic obliteration,


2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be


 On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote:



  *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [
 mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com
 ] *On Behalf Of *Bruno Marchal
 *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM
 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


 On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


 A Grand Council of Truth?


 Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to
 correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not
 jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that.

 Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often driven
 by them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if we are honest
 with ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no shame  no blame) We
 are so wrapped up in all of this that it drives us to hotly deny that
 anything of the sort could possibly be so; we cannot even begin admitting
 to it. Naturally there is a whole range of personality types along the
 spectrum; perhaps some humans have transcended it all… they say Buddha did,
 but the rest of us to one degree or another suffer from our own blind
 failings.
 It is a struggle within sometimes to not fall into these all too easy to
 fall into habits and their blind unthinking way of supplying the mind with
 readymade answers. This very quick, but unthinking mechanism makes sense in
 a field survival situation, where there is no time for thought to slow down
 response. Just some cardinal trigger and there is an immediate
 amplification of the signal in the brain and an immediate zoom to the fore
 of our minds. Often, especially in situations, such as can develop on
 internet discussion groups, primitive instincts take over – I have seen it,
 so have you, so has everyone here. Passion can drive instinctive behavioral
 modes to the fore. Re-learning the inner being living inside the mind is
 rather much a lifelong pursuit – for after all we are a moving target, and
 if we do not keep a certain vigilance we all risk falling into habitual
 modes of mind.


 You are right. I think that biological evolution oscillates all the time
 between the selfishness (the self and his/her passions) and cooperation
 (long term sensible and reasonable action). This comes from the tension
 between the 1p and the 3p (Bp  p and Bp). It is very complex, and related
 to the paradox of theology: If everything is solved, we can as well kill
 ourself. There is no simple solution, and more than one life is not enough.
 The correct contemplation-level is hard to grasp. But Buddha got it ...
 allegedly.

 Bruno








  And, you already know where I am going with this. One night, while
 dining at a restaurant, a good one, the High Reasoner, meets with an old
 friend to discuss the new FIFA rules issued for the World Cup. The friend
 slides over a closed sports magazine. Have a look at this article in the
 middle, here. Inside the magazine is a rather thick envelope.

 -Original Message-
 From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:06 am
 Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


  Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it
 produces nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a
 complete failure.

 It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is below
 some level of corruption, in which case you can be misinfoirmed, and by not
 knowing it and being honest, you spread the lies and this leads to problem
 soon or later. Problems comes from the liars, but also from the people who
 have been lied. It is very often hard to delineate them.

 Bruno





  -Original Message-
 From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:49 pm
 Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 On 09 Nov 2013, at 19:09, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


  I am emphasizing having

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:54, Alberto G. Corona wrote:



So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method  
is, to paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system  
we have apart from all the others we've tried.


Following your analogy. when the the media, and the politicians of  
majority parties form a coalition to defend their own interests,  
then you can not have access to the information. You are governed by  
a collection of liars and simulators. There is no democracy.


When the science and their media is dominated by a single coalition  
united in the mutual interest to increase their budget and they have  
the communication means of internet to coordinate in this effort,  
then there is no science.


I propose the separation of science and state.


Yes. And that is what is done normally in a democracy. When science is  
not separated from politics, you get pseudo-science at the top. In  
fact you get a religious state. Politicians can consult experts, but  
have to be careful not taking them too much seriously.


Now, about climate, my opinion, since always, is that we have accessed  
to only one planet, at least for some time, and so we must avoid any  
irreversible actions *when* possible.


Henry Ford in the early 1900 explained already that by using hemp in  
place of steel and oil to make car, we would allow a sustainable  
economy, while by using oil, we create a larger and larger imbalance.  
Given the Hemp alternative, we should not have even begun to use oil,  
or in a more reasonable proportion, and should have continue with  
Hemp, as we have done the preceding centuries. Of course the oil  
barons thought differently, and invented the myth that Hemp (cannabis)  
is a dangerous plant. A myth which has been debunked since the start.


Brent advocates democracy, and I go with him on this. But if their is  
a climate change, it might be due to the failure of democracy to  
prevent big corporatist lies.


Bruno






2013/11/12 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com



2013/11/12 LizR lizj...@gmail.com
On 12 November 2013 14:04, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com  
wrote:
Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high  
risk of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology  
to long term Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that  
does not realize that is poor fool who does not know how the world  
works and has replaced with all his innocent stupidity the fairy  
tales of the past with the fairy tales of supposed sciences.


Yes of course.

If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of  
the main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over  
the peer reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long  
interchanges of mails were devoted to talk about stablishing  
barriers in the peer reviewed magazines by perverting the PR  
mechanisms.


The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty.  
It acts as an ideological filter  rather than as a quality filter in  
every discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from  
mutual cooperation by interchanging money for ideological ammunition.


So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method  
is, to paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system  
we have apart from all the others we've tried.


You might like to consider that hurricanes and bush fires and rising  
seas and melting glaciers can't be influenced by political opinion,  
and it would take a huge effort to generate the evidence coming in  
from all over the world as part of some vast conspiracy. We're  
forever hearing about the wildest storms, the highest (and lowest)  
temperatures on record, the greatest floods and droughts and so on.


Is it just possible that the overwhelming mountain of evidence  
indicates, maybe, something is really going on?


(And by the way, supposing there is no global warming and we go  
ahead and develop sustainable power sources for no reason whatsoever  
before the oil runs out - won't that just be awful?)


You better read  the mails of the two climategate scandal and  
conform a better opinion about the matter than with the bush fires  
and hurricanes that the sanitary towell sellers tell you in your  
dumb box. You can see how a conspiracy of interests push truth away  
and replace it with half truths. That is happening since the human  
learn to talk and socialize. When the whole science is perverted  
because all the laboratories are a single virtual laboratory, all  
the model simulations talk together to to adjust their parameters to  
reach the same conclussions (up to the decimal level) . When the  
measures of tree growth is made by hungry russians that are ansious  
to get his money and depend on western scientists that need their  
next year grant from politicians that want to see reasons for giving  
them millions of dollars, Then there is nothing that may 

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be


 On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:54, Alberto G. Corona wrote:


 So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to
 paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart
 from all the others we've tried.

 Following your analogy. when the the media, and the politicians
 of majority parties form a coalition to defend their own interests, then
 you can not have access to the information. You are governed by a
 collection of liars and simulators. There is no democracy.

 When the science and their media is dominated by a single coalition united
 in the mutual interest to increase their budget and they have the
 communication means of internet to coordinate in this effort, then there is
 no science.

 I propose the separation of science and state.


 Yes. And that is what is done normally in a democracy. When science is not
 separated from politics, you get pseudo-science at the top. In fact you get
 a religious state. Politicians can consult experts, but have to be careful
 not taking them too much seriously.

 Now, about climate, my opinion, since always, is that we have accessed to
 only one planet, at least for some time, and so we must avoid any
 irreversible actions *when* possible.

 Henry Ford in the early 1900 explained already that by using hemp in place
 of steel and oil to make car, we would allow a sustainable economy, while
 by using oil, we create a larger and larger imbalance. Given the Hemp
 alternative, we should not have even begun to use oil, or in a more
 reasonable proportion, and should have continue with Hemp, as we have done
 the preceding centuries. Of course the oil barons thought differently, and
 invented the myth that Hemp (cannabis) is a dangerous plant. A myth which
 has been debunked since the start.

 Brent advocates democracy, and I go with him on this. But if their is a
 climate change, it might be due to the failure of democracy to prevent big
 corporatist lies.

 Bruno


 The planet saver crusade  evoke  in my mind the country savers of the past
that said the same to save their country, and in the process, gain power
and rob the people. Save the planet from your preferred  dirt paranoia with
your own money, Not mine. I have my own dirt to attend.

You ignore basic facts of production on biocombustibles and biomaterials.
The production of biocombustibles instead of food has been proved that lead
to disaster.

The obsessed with the idea that there are  only a limited  X for Y  .
Sooner or later reach their logical conclussion: some Y must be made
redundant. and these Y are people.

And the fact is that there are plenty  of energy and materials everywhere.
The only lacking resource is the inteligence and ingenuity of more people
to learn to use them.



 2013/11/12 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com




 2013/11/12 LizR lizj...@gmail.com

 On 12 November 2013 14:04, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote:

 Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high
 risk of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long
 term Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize
 that is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced
 with all his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy
 tales of supposed sciences.


 Yes of course.


 If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of
 the main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the
 peer reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges
 of mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer
 reviewed magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms.

 The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It
 acts as an ideological filter  rather than as a quality filter in every
 discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation
 by interchanging money for ideological ammunition.


 So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to
 paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart
 from all the others we've tried.

 You might like to consider that hurricanes and bush fires and rising
 seas and melting glaciers can't be influenced by political opinion, and it
 would take a huge effort to generate the evidence coming in from all over
 the world as part of some vast conspiracy. We're forever hearing about the
 wildest storms, the highest (and lowest) temperatures on record, the
 greatest floods and droughts and so on.

 Is it just possible that the overwhelming mountain of evidence
 indicates, maybe, something is really going on?

 (And by the way, supposing there is no global warming and we go ahead
 and develop sustainable power sources for no reason whatsoever before the
 oil runs out - won't that just be awful?)


 You better read  the mails of the two climategate scandal and conform a
 better 

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread spudboy100

I agree and understand, Alberto, with your elegy.

Mitch


-Original Message-
From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:42 am
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


To spudboy:


Reason alone does`n move to anything, not even to knowledge. If you think that 
your passions are bad for looking for the truth, you are wrong. What you must 
say is that some passions are an obstacle for other higher passions, for 
example the passion of using the reason to reach the truth.


But truth is ever constitutionally instrumental, it is ever passional, because 
the ultimate arbiter  of truth in the most deep of our mind (brain if you like) 
is a switch that is activated by different stimulus that are unavoidably 
passional, because that is in our own nature, architecture of the mind, or 
whathever you may call it, in the light of experience, philosophy or 
evolutionary science, the ultimate legitimizer of truth is passional. 


Or in physico-mathematical terms, truth is whathever that maintain us, and ours 
away from entropic obliteration,




2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be




On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote:



 
 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 
 

On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:





A Grand Council of Truth?

 

 

Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to 
correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not 
jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that.
 
Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often driven by 
them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if we are honest with 
ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no shame  no blame) We are so 
wrapped up in all of this that it drives us to hotly deny that anything of the 
sort could possibly be so; we cannot even begin admitting to it. Naturally 
there is a whole range of personality types along the spectrum; perhaps some 
humans have transcended it all… they say Buddha did, but the rest of us to one 
degree or another suffer from our own blind failings.
It is a struggle within sometimes to not fall into these all too easy to fall 
into habits and their blind unthinking way of supplying the mind with readymade 
answers. This very quick, but unthinking mechanism makes sense in a field 
survival situation, where there is no time for thought to slow down response. 
Just some cardinal trigger and there is an immediate amplification of the 
signal in the brain and an immediate zoom to the fore of our minds. Often, 
especially in situations, such as can develop on internet discussion groups, 
primitive instincts take over – I have seen it, so have you, so has everyone 
here. Passion can drive instinctive behavioral modes to the fore. Re-learning 
the inner being living inside the mind is rather much a lifelong pursuit – for 
after all we are a moving target, and if we do not keep a certain vigilance we 
all risk falling into habitual modes of mind.






You are right. I think that biological evolution oscillates all the time 
between the selfishness (the self and his/her passions) and cooperation (long 
term sensible and reasonable action). This comes from the tension between the 
1p and the 3p (Bp  p and Bp). It is very complex, and related to the paradox 
of theology: If everything is solved, we can as well kill ourself. There is no 
simple solution, and more than one life is not enough. The correct 
contemplation-level is hard to grasp. But Buddha got it ... allegedly.


Bruno













 

 





And, you already know where I am going with this. One night, while dining at a 
restaurant, a good one, the High Reasoner, meets with an old friend to discuss 
the new FIFA rules issued for the World Cup. The friend slides over a closed 
sports magazine. Have a look at this article in the middle, here. Inside the 
magazine is a rather thick envelope.

-Original Message-
From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:06 am
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:





Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it produces 
nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a complete failure.

 

It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is below some 
level of corruption, in which case you can be misinfoirmed, and by not knowing 
it and being honest, you spread the lies and this leads to problem soon or 
later. Problems comes from the liars, but also from the people who have been 
lied. It is very often hard to delineate them.

 

Bruno

 

 

 





-Original

RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Chris de Morsella
Climategate a Fox News generated tempest in a teacup. Much ado about stupid
human behavior in order to keep the focus off of the salient facts that
global mean temperatures have been rising (within the backdrop of natural
weather cycles, such as the El Nino oscillation); that global mean sea
levels have been rising; that both Antarctica and Greenland have been losing
ice mass balance, as established by satellite gravinometric measurements 
and independently by a European radar study of these ice masses. Glaciers
are disappearing at breakneck speed all over the world – Glacier National
Park (near where I live will soon have no more glaciers)!

Focus instead on the petty sniping emails of some bureaucrats – clearly a
much more important angle…. Only in the distorted universe of faux news.

There are literally trillions of dollars of future evaluations at stake in
this and the fossil carbon barons of the world will do everything in their
power to preserve this future evaluation, because their current wealth is
tied to what the market place thinks these coal, oil, gas (and oil-like
deposits of tar etc.) reserves will be worth. Any serious global shift off
of burning carbon fuels in order to mitigate global warming would slash the
value of these reserves and hence the current assets of these billionaires.
This is far more financial motive than the petty bureaucratic maneuvering
faux news has presented as the driving motive to manufacture this scary
story of global warming – go to sleep take the blue pill, and above all keep
burning coal…. Its just those crazed warmists… or so the often repeated
denier meme goes.

Besides isn’t climategate getting a little long on the tooth. Can’t you come
up with some more recent scandal – some nefarious example of evil warmists
inventing this scary movie in order to establish a totalitarian new world
order and force everyone into the chains of communism

Watch out for those black helicopters they are out to get you.

 

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:56 AM
To: everything-list
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

 

 

2013/11/12 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

On 11/11/2013 5:04 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk of
being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term
Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that
is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with all
his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales of
supposed sciences.

If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the
main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer
reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of
mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed
magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms.

 

Because they had already seen the process being manipulated by the well
funded Deniers and their political allies.

 

This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was publised
in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was perverted
by the deniers? I have no option  but to think that you believe en evil
deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming apocalypse.  And
you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black magic, I will appear in
your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me.

 


The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It acts
as an ideological filter  rather than as a quality filter in every
discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation
by interchanging money for ideological ammunition.

 

Yes, some scientists might be biased - so we should assumed you deniers have
the truth on the basis of no evidence except that in the past some
scientists have been biased.

 

You have your WW apocalypse, to believe in. But because you will be sooner
or later ridiculed by reality, I recommend you to search for a replacement..
What about the end of the ozone layer? no..that has been in fashion time ago
but it gains momentum every winter. What about the peak oil? Nah, fracking
ended it,although our ecoalarmist comrades are doing whatever they can to
stop this menace against our beloved apocalypse.  I recommend you to study
the chemtrails. They are the true menace. 

 

End of transmission from Mars. bip bip


Brent



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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread meekerdb

On 11/12/2013 4:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:54, Alberto G. Corona wrote:



So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to paraphrase 
Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart from all the others 
we've tried.


Following your analogy. when the the media, and the politicians of majority parties 
form a coalition to defend their own interests, then you can not have access to the 
information. You are governed by a collection of liars and simulators. There is no 
democracy.


When the science and their media is dominated by a single coalition united in the 
mutual interest to increase their budget and they have the communication means of 
internet to coordinate in this effort, then there is no science.


I propose the separation of science and state.


Yes. And that is what is done normally in a democracy. When science is not separated 
from politics, you get pseudo-science at the top. In fact you get a religious state. 
Politicians can consult experts, but have to be careful not taking them too much seriously.


Now, about climate, my opinion, since always, is that we have accessed to only one 
planet, at least for some time, and so we must avoid any irreversible actions *when* 
possible.


Henry Ford in the early 1900 explained already that by using hemp in place of steel and 
oil to make car,


Only the body panels were of a plastic made from plants, the chassis and engine were steel 
and iron:


The frame, made of tubular steel, had 14 plastic panels attached to it. The car weighed 
2000 lbs., 1000 lbs. lighter than a steel car. The exact ingredients of the plastic panels 
are unknown because no record of the formula exists today. One article claims that they 
were made from a chemical formula that, among many other ingredients, included soybeans, 
wheat, hemp, flax and ramie; while the man who was instrumental in creating the car, 
Lowell E. Overly, claims it was ...soybean fiber in a phenolic resin with formaldehyde 
used in the impregnation (Davis, 51).


we would allow a sustainable economy, while by using oil, we create a larger and larger 
imbalance. Given the Hemp alternative, we should not have even begun to use oil, or in a 
more reasonable proportion, and should have continue with Hemp, as we have done the 
preceding centuries. Of course the oil barons thought differently, and invented the myth 
that Hemp (cannabis) is a dangerous plant. A myth which has been debunked since the start.


Brent advocates democracy, and I go with him on this. But if their is a climate change, 
it might be due to the failure of democracy to prevent big corporatist lies.


Or the propensity of humans to live well today no matter what problems that may entail a 
generation or two in the future.  That's why the fossil fuel industry doesn't have to 
convince anyone that global warming isn't happening, they just have to create some doubt.  
And that's easy against scientists because scientists always doubt their own theories.  As 
Albert says, knowledge doesn't produce action.  To get large scale cooperative action is a 
political process.  It requires values, passions...like concern for ones grandchildren.  
If you say science must be separate from politics - how do propose that scientific 
knowledge about a problem, motivate action?


Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Alberto G. Corona
You said it: the calentological comunity, acting as a single entity, denied
their data. to scientists with different points of view. That is not
science. that is a sectarian organization that, because are working with
public funding are breaking not only the law and the decency, but the last
bit of legitimacy that may made them credible. In doing so, they stopped
the scientific inquiry beyond their own circle.

You choose to believe what that sect of propagandists are claiming. You
have all the right to spend your time and to talk about it. I´m in favour
of the freedom of religion. But that is not Science.


2013/11/12 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

  On 11/12/2013 2:54 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:


  When the science and their media is dominated by a single coalition
 united in the mutual interest to increase their budget and they have the
 communication means of internet to coordinate in this effort, then there is
 no science.


 Albert doesn't bother to read the scientific literature.  If he did he
 would see that every idea is repeatedly challenged - but with the aim of
 resolving questions, not just producing doubt.

 Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread meekerdb

On 11/12/2013 11:53 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
You said it: the calentological comunity, acting as a single entity, denied their data. 
to scientists with different points of view.


But they didn't.  They only discussed it and noted that some of the data didn't belong to 
them but had been shared with them by other organizations that colllected it.  All of 
their data was, and is, available, as is all the source code of the general circulation 
models used for predicition.


For someone who thinks they know the difference between science and religion, it is 
interesting that you never make an argument based on science.


Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Thus said, because there are eternal laws, there are eternal truths. For
the materialists, Konrad Lorenz said something extraordinarily profound
that connect two universes of knowledge: The Kantian apriori of knowledge
have been inserted in our brain/mind/soul by evolution in the form of
intuitions, processing of the senses  and other instinctive elements
without which not only knowledge but existence would be impossible.  They
are US in a literal sense.

That means that the eternal truths are around us, but primarily also  in
ourselves, in this instinctive knowledge gained trough evolution, about
ourselves, about others and about the world. It includes from the very
basic: the perception of space and time, that Roger talk about from time to
time, to  the commons sense to the the highest truths about what is good
and what is bad.


2013/11/12 spudboy...@aol.com

  I agree and understand, Alberto, with your elegy.

 Mitch
  -Original Message-
 From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:42 am
 Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

  To spudboy:

  Reason alone does`n move to anything, not even to knowledge. If you
 think that your passions are bad for looking for the truth, you are wrong.
 What you must say is that some passions are an obstacle for other higher
 passions, for example the passion of using the reason to reach the truth.

  But truth is ever constitutionally instrumental, it is ever passional,
 because the ultimate arbiter  of truth in the most deep of our mind (brain
 if you like) is a switch that is activated by different stimulus that are
 unavoidably passional, because that is in our own nature, architecture of
 the mind, or whathever you may call it, in the light of experience,
 philosophy or evolutionary science, the ultimate legitimizer of truth is
 passional.

  Or in physico-mathematical terms, truth is whathever that maintain us,
 and ours away from entropic obliteration,


 2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be


  On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote:



  *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [
 mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.comeverything-list@googlegroups.com
 ] *On Behalf Of *Bruno Marchal
 *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM
 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


   On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


  A Grand Council of Truth?


  Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able
 to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were
 not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that.

 Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often
 driven by them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if we are
 honest with ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no shame  no
 blame) We are so wrapped up in all of this that it drives us to hotly deny
 that anything of the sort could possibly be so; we cannot even begin
 admitting to it. Naturally there is a whole range of personality types
 along the spectrum; perhaps some humans have transcended it all… they say
 Buddha did, but the rest of us to one degree or another suffer from our own
 blind failings.
 It is a struggle within sometimes to not fall into these all too easy to
 fall into habits and their blind unthinking way of supplying the mind with
 readymade answers. This very quick, but unthinking mechanism makes sense in
 a field survival situation, where there is no time for thought to slow down
 response. Just some cardinal trigger and there is an immediate
 amplification of the signal in the brain and an immediate zoom to the fore
 of our minds. Often, especially in situations, such as can develop on
 internet discussion groups, primitive instincts take over – I have seen it,
 so have you, so has everyone here. Passion can drive instinctive behavioral
 modes to the fore. Re-learning the inner being living inside the mind is
 rather much a lifelong pursuit – for after all we are a moving target, and
 if we do not keep a certain vigilance we all risk falling into habitual
 modes of mind.


  You are right. I think that biological evolution oscillates all the
 time between the selfishness (the self and his/her passions) and
 cooperation (long term sensible and reasonable action). This comes from the
 tension between the 1p and the 3p (Bp  p and Bp). It is very complex, and
 related to the paradox of theology: If everything is solved, we can as well
 kill ourself. There is no simple solution, and more than one life is not
 enough. The correct contemplation-level is hard to grasp. But Buddha got it
 ... allegedly.

  Bruno








   And, you already know where I am going with this. One night, while
 dining at a restaurant, a good one, the High Reasoner, meets with an old
 friend to discuss the new FIFA rules issued for the World Cup. The friend
 slides over a closed sports

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Alberto G. Corona
So you say that because the data was finally available against their will,
they are good scientists that welcome the challenges and the scientific
method? : Their practices tell absolutely the contrary. And the fact that
their data leaked out is not in their merit, in the contrary. All what you
mention of your past mail above is a self-confession that they are acting
as a sect, not  as scientists. including their conspirationism the
we-against-the-bad-boys-outside, se sylencing of the exceptics inside, the
common interest  and all the marks of a corrupt collusion as never in
history.

But this is nothing but a little aspect of all  the Global Warming scam.
 But I will not waste my time with this shit.  I will laugh at you and will
buy your beach houses  that you for sure will shell for a bargain. Or not?


2013/11/12 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

  On 11/12/2013 11:53 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

 You said it: the calentological comunity, acting as a single entity,
 denied their data. to scientists with different points of view.


 But they didn't.  They only discussed it and noted that some of the data
 didn't belong to them but had been shared with them by other organizations
 that colllected it.  All of their data was, and is, available, as is all
 the source code of the general circulation models used for predicition.

 For someone who thinks they know the difference between science and
 religion, it is interesting that you never make an argument based on
 science.

 Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread meekerdb

On 11/12/2013 12:30 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
So you say that because the data was finally available against their will, they are good 
scientists that welcome the challenges and the scientific method?


They were not compelled, they agreed to provide the data after discussing whether there 
was an ethical way to deny it.


: Their practices tell absolutely the contrary. And the fact that their data leaked out 
is not in their merit, in the contrary. All what you mention of your past mail above is 
a self-confession that they are acting as a sect, not  as scientists. including their 
conspirationism the we-against-the-bad-boys-outside, se sylencing of the exceptics 
inside, the common interest  and all the marks of a corrupt collusion as never in history.


As human beings they were reluctant to provide hard earned data to those who had proved to 
mere critics - like you - with no interest but to spread doubt.




But this is nothing but a little aspect of all  the Global Warming scam.  But I will not 
waste my time with this shit.


Good that will save my time replying to shit.

I will laugh at you and will buy your beach houses  that you for sure will shell for a 
bargain. Or not?


My house is 120' above a coastal plain.  It will be a beach house if FUD 
prevails.

Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread LizR
On 13 November 2013 05:19, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:


 And the fact is that there are plenty  of energy and materials everywhere.
 The only lacking resource is the inteligence and ingenuity of more people
 to learn to use them.


That at least you have got right.

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread LizR
On 13 November 2013 06:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 I knew you didn't live on this planet or care for it's future.

 Quite clearly - I have my own dirt to attend to ignores the existence of
the commons we all share in. If Alberto wants to move to Mars then fine, he
is no longer invested in the Earth's environment. But until then he is, and
(like the fossil fuel industry) is apparently unwilling to pay the full
price of living here. The oil industry wants a free lunch with no comeback
from the hidden costs of their wealth-generation (now becoming less and
less hidden) - they act as though they have no idea of what economics
actually means, as though that they don't realise the price you don't pay
now is accumulating somewhere else and has to be paid in the end.
(Possibly, if they continue to ignore reality for long enough, with our
children's lives.)

Also, to claim that the IPCC etc can't be trusted because it's all just
scientists looking after themselves while believing that the propaganda
from the oil industry ISN'T ... is (to put it kindly) disingenuous.

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Alberto G. Corona
 As human beings they were reluctant to provide hard earned data to those
 who had proved to mere critics - like you - with no interest but to spread
 doubt.

 Can ever have been a more clear confession of sectarianism ? Doubt about
what? about what yours affirm that is truth and must be taken as face
value?  Is that the new conception of science  and the one that Popper et
al teach to me is ourdated?

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread spudboy100


Brent, try cruising Wikipedia. I don't know of any biologist or physician, that 
didn't approve of this nonsense. I am not aware of anyone speaking out 
authoritatively, as a scientist that opposed eugenics. Maybe you can, but I 
don't recall anyone on the hero side. Whether is was pro-birth control medical 
advocates, or public health administrators, I think nobody uttered a peep, 
anywhere until maybe the 1950's? 

-Original Message-
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:15 pm
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


  

On 11/11/2013 10:13 AM,  spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


Ah, but Brents' point is that smoking and cancer  are proven fact. 
However, at the time, Troifim Lysenko's views  on biology were proven. 

?? To nobody outside the Soviet Union - and only to a few there.


So were the Eugenicists that lead directly to  Dachau. 

That's like saying Mendel led directly to Dachau - for veryexpansive 
meanings of directly.


Almost 100% concurred (physicians,  anthropologists, geneticists, 
biologists) on this fact.  

And  your source for this is?

Brent
  

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread meekerdb

On 11/12/2013 1:36 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
Brent, try cruising Wikipedia. I don't know of any biologist or physician, that didn't 
approve of this nonsense. I am not aware of anyone speaking out authoritatively, as a 
scientist that opposed eugenics. Maybe you can, but I don't recall anyone on the hero 
side. Whether is was pro-birth control medical advocates, or public health 
administrators, I think nobody uttered a peep, anywhere until maybe the 1950's? 


A peep against propagating good genetics or a peep against Dachau.  Those are very 
different things and are only directly linked in a very expansive meaning of directly.


Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread spudboy100

Indeed. I look at things a bit different, perhaps. then yourself. I see it, us, 
as being set against obliteration versus existence. 

Mitch


-Original Message-
From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


Thus said, because there are eternal laws, there are eternal truths. For the 
materialists, Konrad Lorenz said something extraordinarily profound that 
connect two universes of knowledge: The Kantian apriori of knowledge have been 
inserted in our brain/mind/soul by evolution in the form of intuitions, 
processing of the senses  and other instinctive elements without which not only 
knowledge but existence would be impossible.  They are US in a literal sense.


That means that the eternal truths are around us, but primarily also  in 
ourselves, in this instinctive knowledge gained trough evolution, about 
ourselves, about others and about the world. It includes from the very basic: 
the perception of space and time, that Roger talk about from time to time, to  
the commons sense to the the highest truths about what is good and what is bad.




2013/11/12  spudboy...@aol.com

I agree and understand, Alberto, with your elegy.
 
Mitch



-Original Message-
From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:42 am
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


To spudboy:


Reason alone does`n move to anything, not even to knowledge. If you think that 
your passions are bad for looking for the truth, you are wrong. What you must 
say is that some passions are an obstacle for other higher passions, for 
example the passion of using the reason to reach the truth.


But truth is ever constitutionally instrumental, it is ever passional, because 
the ultimate arbiter  of truth in the most deep of our mind (brain if you like) 
is a switch that is activated by different stimulus that are unavoidably 
passional, because that is in our own nature, architecture of the mind, or 
whathever you may call it, in the light of experience, philosophy or 
evolutionary science, the ultimate legitimizer of truth is passional. 


Or in physico-mathematical terms, truth is whathever that maintain us, and ours 
away from entropic obliteration,




2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be




On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote:



 
 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 
 

On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:





A Grand Council of Truth?

 

 

Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to 
correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not 
jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that.
 
Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often driven by 
them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if we are honest with 
ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no shame  no blame) We are so 
wrapped up in all of this that it drives us to hotly deny that anything of the 
sort could possibly be so; we cannot even begin admitting to it. Naturally 
there is a whole range of personality types along the spectrum; perhaps some 
humans have transcended it all… they say Buddha did, but the rest of us to one 
degree or another suffer from our own blind failings.
It is a struggle within sometimes to not fall into these all too easy to fall 
into habits and their blind unthinking way of supplying the mind with readymade 
answers. This very quick, but unthinking mechanism makes sense in a field 
survival situation, where there is no time for thought to slow down response. 
Just some cardinal trigger and there is an immediate amplification of the 
signal in the brain and an immediate zoom to the fore of our minds. Often, 
especially in situations, such as can develop on internet discussion groups, 
primitive instincts take over – I have seen it, so have you, so has everyone 
here. Passion can drive instinctive behavioral modes to the fore. Re-learning 
the inner being living inside the mind is rather much a lifelong pursuit – for 
after all we are a moving target, and if we do not keep a certain vigilance we 
all risk falling into habitual modes of mind.






You are right. I think that biological evolution oscillates all the time 
between the selfishness (the self and his/her passions) and cooperation (long 
term sensible and reasonable action). This comes from the tension between the 
1p and the 3p (Bp  p and Bp). It is very complex, and related to the paradox 
of theology: If everything is solved, we can as well kill ourself. There is no 
simple solution, and more than one life is not enough. The correct 
contemplation-level is hard to grasp

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread spudboy100

Probably both, if my reading of history books about this time. Which I am using 
as a reminder that we need to be cautious about how to react to this, AGW might 
be completely true, but I am worried that world socialists, and a cadre of 
billionaire supporters want this for other reasons then to save the Earth. Call 
it paranoia, but many of these want wealth transference from the USA, 
Australia, Canada and Europe to the 3rd world. The billionaires can accrue 
power for money, in dealing with these Marxists. And, no its not a great plot, 
but a commonality of interests, tween governments, parties and billionaires. 
That's my best guess, but it doesn't exclude our responsibility in trying to 
save ourselves from AGW. Lastly, if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, 
power, then please provide a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, 
please. 


-Original Message-
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 4:42 pm
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


  

On 11/12/2013 1:36 PM,  spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


Brent, trycruising Wikipedia. I don't know of any biologist or 
physician,that didn't approve of this nonsense. I am not aware of 
anyonespeaking out authoritatively, as a scientist that opposed
eugenics. Maybe you can, but I don't recall anyone on the heroside. 
Whether is was pro-birth control medical advocates, orpublic health 
administrators, I think nobody uttered a peep,anywhere until maybe the 
1950's? 

A peep against  propagating good genetics or a peep against Dachau.  
Those are  very different things and are only directly linked in a very   
   expansive meaning of directly.
  
  Brent
  

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread LizR
On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a
 clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please.


The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need.

Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the
sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or
warfare we'd have this sorted by next week.

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread meekerdb

On 11/12/2013 3:49 PM, LizR wrote:

On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com mailto:spudboy...@aol.com 
wrote:

if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a 
clean,
affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please.


The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need.

Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the sort of effort 
ut into that that has been put into the space race or warfare we'd have this sorted by 
next week.



Look at David MacKay's book Without Hot Air, which is free online, to see an estimate of 
the scope of the effort required.  It's a lot, but as you say it's no more than some other 
big efforts.


The problem is that first we need to start.

Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2013/11/13 LizR lizj...@gmail.com

 On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

  if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a
 clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please.


 The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need.

 Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the
 sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or
 warfare we'd have this sorted by next week.


And the hunger  of the world in a week-end.  Brownies for desert

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread LizR
On 12 November 2013 22:56, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:


 This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was
 publised in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was
 perverted by the deniers? I have no option  but to think that you believe
 en evil deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming
 apocalypse.  And you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black
 magic, I will appear in your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me.


Or you could look at TV advertising, with big expensive ads for cars, or at
the paper with pull out sections which are trying to sell cars, or you
could look at the TV news, which despite reporting virtually a new climate
related disaster every week now, hardly ever mentions that it might be
linked to global warming (unless it's to point out that no single storn
can be directly linked to global warming - the only mention I've heard
recently). Now add up how many people read science magazines and how many
watch car adverts on TV.

Now maybe you can see who is in charge of shaping our opinions.

When car ads are banned, as cigarette ads are, there may be some tiny
amount of truth in what you say. (Although by the time *that* happens,
Auckland will probably be underwater.)

But until then, the deniers are firmly in control.

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-12 Thread Richard Ruquist
As I see it, the problem is connecting atmospheric disaster events to
global warming.
I have been looking for such a connection in the scientific literature and
even in AGW blogs w/o success.

Before going into physics I was an undergraduate student of mechanical
engineering.
In our fluid dynamic classes we learned that if you put more energy into a
turbulent system, such as the atmosphere,
then the turbulent fluctuations (read storms) vastly out pace the average
increase of energy (read global temp).

I recall some expressions of the relationship of fluctuations to averages,
but that was in the 1950s.
If any of you have read of such a relationship to explain the increased
intensity of storms
please let me know (with both barrels) and provide a link if possible.
Richard


On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 10:25 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 12 November 2013 22:56, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:


 This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was
 publised in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was
 perverted by the deniers? I have no option  but to think that you believe
 en evil deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming
 apocalypse.  And you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black
 magic, I will appear in your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me.


 Or you could look at TV advertising, with big expensive ads for cars, or
 at the paper with pull out sections which are trying to sell cars, or you
 could look at the TV news, which despite reporting virtually a new climate
 related disaster every week now, hardly ever mentions that it might be
 linked to global warming (unless it's to point out that no single storn
 can be directly linked to global warming - the only mention I've heard
 recently). Now add up how many people read science magazines and how many
 watch car adverts on TV.

 Now maybe you can see who is in charge of shaping our opinions.

 When car ads are banned, as cigarette ads are, there may be some tiny
 amount of truth in what you say. (Although by the time *that* happens,
 Auckland will probably be underwater.)

 But until then, the deniers are firmly in control.


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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-11 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 10 Nov 2013, at 22:06, John Mikes wrote:


Bruno and Brent:

Who are you to  T E L L  society what it needs?


I am only trying to tell society what I need, and what I think my  
children, my students, my friends,  and all people I care about can  
need.




(BTW: I agree perfectly with your position).

I had discussions on other lists in aspects of religion and gun- 
control and received similar offensive repercussions. No universal  
machine can tell any other universal machine how to think and what  
to aim at.


I absolutely agree with you.

But all universal machine have the right, for that very reason, to  
criticize and vote against those machines who want to impose their  
mode of thinking.





Voting is a lying hoax, democracy is nonetxistent. A handful people  
of goodwill will not change the malicious crowd.
When I abhor shooting to kill people, it does not prove wrong those  
crazies who like to do it - just marks a difference of opinions.

TELLING society what it needs is fascism, socialism, or religion.


OK. but the idea is not killing is bad. The idea is killing me or  
my children is bad, and so I might vote for someone who will help (or  
promise to help) to minimize the probability of that happening.


Bruno





Be careful with your words: they are mostly meaningless substitutes.

John M.


On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 11:50 AM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:
On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:25, meekerdb wrote:


On 11/6/2013 12:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


There is nothing wrong being rich, unless the money is stolen  
money, and that's the case today.


There's nothing morally wrong with being rich, but it creates an  
ethical problem.  Being much wealthier than others bestows a lot of  
power.  If there is no effective government (like parts of Somalia)  
then the rich hire a personal army to protect their property.   
Where there is government, the police protect their property and  
the rich attempt to control the government through propaganda and  
buying influence.  So long as the rich are not so rich as to live  
in a different 'world' than the middle class and they are  
relatively diverse this works OK.  But the system seems to be  
unstable in that the rich can and do use their wealth and power to  
get more wealth and power - and not necessarily productively.  So  
those who inherit wealth tend to gain even more wealth.  Society  
needs to do something to stabilize the system and prevent the  
increasing concentration of wealth.


I completely agree. The problem is that with money, you can produce  
more money in two ways, honestly or dishonestly


Bruno, before I touch the basics - could you explain what you  
would consider to produce M O R E  money HONESTLY?  Same question to  
Brent's text above: that the rich can and do use their wealth and  
power to get more wealth and power - and not necessarily productively.


I don't see a 'productive' way how 'the rich' get more wealth and  
power by using their wealth and power. It is exploitation, political  
scam, bribery, terrorism, etc. - all in the framework of accepted  
morals of the system (either capitalist, or fascist).


I recall some basics (I am no 'Socialist') from Marx:
NOBODY owns Nature so any natural products (mining, farming, or  
other) are valued 'honestly' as recompensation for the efforts  
invested into the natural process for getting money - honestly -  
productively, without exploitation. Does any mine-owner work on his  
product? Does any Farming conglomerated stockholder work honestly on  
the crop? I do not advocate the CEO to sweep the floor: there is  
tasks' - organization in which everyone has a role to perform, but  
are the roles proportionately paid for? Mao tried to switch 'roles'  
temporarily - he failed. Lenin realized that such just distribution  
is impossible in today's society and postulated FIRST the  
development of som COMMUINST MAN who lives up to such 'just  
distribution' of benefits - surely realizing the impossibility of  
such development. All other (Socialist?) countries suffered from  
the same malaise as the (democraticly?) capitalistic ones: the  
leadership and its power usurped wealth, acquired MONEY and POWER on  
the back of the 'not so fortunate' exploited majority.

Alas, I have no solution to remedy the situation.
Re-hire Dr. Guillotine is unrealistic.
JM





On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be  
wrote:


On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:25, meekerdb wrote:


On 11/6/2013 12:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


There is nothing wrong being rich, unless the money is stolen  
money, and that's the case today.


There's nothing morally wrong with being rich, but it creates an  
ethical problem.  Being much wealthier than others bestows a lot of  
power.  If there is no effective government (like parts of Somalia)  
then the rich hire a personal army to protect their property.   
Where there is government, the police protect their property and  
the rich 

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-11 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it  
produces nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a  
complete failure.


It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is  
below some level of corruption, in which case you can be misinfoirmed,  
and by not knowing it and being honest, you spread the lies and this  
leads to problem soon or later. Problems comes from the liars, but  
also from the people who have been lied. It is very often hard to  
delineate them.


Bruno





-Original Message-
From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:49 pm
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World


On 09 Nov 2013, at 19:09, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

I am emphasizing having governments print out (Keynes style)  
absolutely, colossal, amounts of cash, as a reward for coming up  
with excellent disease treatments and cures, human solar system  
tours, and clean energy solution, environmental remediation. If the  
banks won't fund researchers, then private equity will, if private  
equity won't then a million contributors-open source-will, provided  
they get a cut of the reward offered by a government prize. I  
wouldn't be shocked if you, Professor, Marchal, might summon up 25  
ECU's in exchange for receiving 3000 ECU's or Golden Yuans, in  
payment, 5 years later.



Only if this reflects some honest contracts.

Honesty is not just moral, it is something which elevates a lot  
the real value of money. It generates trust.


Be honest.
If you don't try to be honest for the calm of your conscience, do it  
for the wealth of your children.


Today big corporations are based on lies. That's the problem.

Bruno



http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-11 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 10 Nov 2013, at 08:42, LizR wrote:


On 10 November 2013 18:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 11/9/2013 6:13 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
Let me ask you Jesse do you suggest any substitute that we can turn  
to for transforming world civilization to clean power? The only  
significant thing I can think of, would be hiring Craig Venter to  
produce some methane or hydrogen maker, that can, if necessary  
convert sea water to fuel.


You seem ignorant that converting sea water to fuel takes more  
energy than you can get from burning the fuel (hydrogen).  So you  
still need a clean energy source to do the conversion.


This would be a possible way of creating fuel for easy transport.  
One of the big points about petrol is that it's very transportable.  
The best solution to the world's energy problems imho would be to  
find a method of extracting carbon dioxide from the air and  
converting it plus water into petrol using solar power. Carbon- 
neutral petrol and we don't have to rejig all our existing transport  
systems. If we can extract more carbon than we use we might even  
cool the earth too.


Is that not what the plants are doing, all the time?

Can we do better, I mean today?

Bruno






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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-11 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 10 Nov 2013, at 05:52, meekerdb wrote:



3. What do you recommend if the US refuses to comply?


?? You mean the U.S. government refuses to act in the best interests  
of it's citizens: Vote them out.


We could have meant that the US government fake to comply. Once a  
government lie, and the press is no more free, you might miss the data  
to vote them out.


In the health politics, many governments refuse to act in the  
interests of its citizens, since a long time, but very few citizens  
realize this, because they are kept uninformed.


Bruno




http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-11 Thread LizR
On 11 November 2013 21:07, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:


 On 10 Nov 2013, at 08:42, LizR wrote:

 On 10 November 2013 18:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 11/9/2013 6:13 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 Let me ask you Jesse do you suggest any substitute that we can turn to
 for transforming world civilization to clean power? The only significant
 thing I can think of, would be hiring Craig Venter to produce some methane
 or hydrogen maker, that can, if necessary convert sea water to fuel.


 You seem ignorant that converting sea water to fuel takes more energy
 than you can get from burning the fuel (hydrogen).  So you still need a
 clean energy source to do the conversion.

 This would be a possible way of creating fuel for easy transport. One of
 the big points about petrol is that it's very transportable. The best
 solution to the world's energy problems imho would be to find a method of
 extracting carbon dioxide from the air and converting it plus water into
 petrol using solar power. Carbon-neutral petrol and we don't have to rejig
 all our existing transport systems. If we can extract more carbon than we
 use we might even cool the earth too.


 Is that not what the plants are doing, all the time?


Yes, but unfortunately the whole process takes millions of years.


 Can we do better, I mean today?

 Not at carbon sequestration, but to achieve a reduction in CO2 by growing
plants we would have to stop using cars and power plants and so on. The
reason I gave the above suggestion is that if we can do it, it would enable
us to be carbon neutral without giving up our civilisation to do so.

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-11 Thread Alberto G. Corona
No.

In this case I´m not insulting,  just gently defending myself, since I´m a
Warmism infidel, I used to be a dangerous smoker , so may I have to pay for
it with my life if the next wave of human rights advocates take over.

And, I have to confess, I fart from time to time and no doubt this will be
severely punished, as a noisy and smelly violation of Human Rights, by the
state and the International institutions in a few years.


2013/11/11 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com

 When somebody doesn’t agree with you, do you then start insulting them?



 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alberto G. Corona
 *Sent:* Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:36 PM
 *To:* everything-list

 *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World



 I think that, since the forces of progress and human dignity lost Siberia
 as the location for stablishing psychiatrics to reconduct deviated enemies
 of the People, The North and South poles can well be used to make global
 warming negationist to reconsider is position against Humanity and human
 rights.



 Don´t you think so, comrade Meekerdb?



 2013/11/10 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

 On 11/9/2013 3:09 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

 On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 9:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 On 11/9/2013 9:37 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 Brent, my analogy, however badly its thought-up, is to force the idealists
 to produce. My idea was to force the idealist back to painful reality and
 hard choices, rather then mentally living in La La land. Saying  Oh
 they're
 working on solar and soon..

 How about forcing the libertarians to painful reality.  They're going
 through the six stages of denial:

 1. There is no global warming.
 2. The science is uncertain.
 3. There's global warming but it's just a natural cycle.
 4. Global warming will really be good for us.
 5. It's too costly to stop global warming.
 6. Nothing can be done.

 Most of them I know are stuck around 3 or 4 now.  They're hoping to delay
 any action so they can get to 6.  Why?  Because they'd rather face
 extinction than admit there are some things that you need government to do.

 Brent,

 Out of curiosity: why do you care so much about what libertarians
 think? They are a small minority. I believe most are very much aware
 that big government is here to stay. Most people in the western world
 vote for some variation of a conservative or liberal party, both
 statist.

 Surely if you are right, and global warming is an existential threat,
 and government intervention is the only way to solve it, what
 libertarians think should be quite low in your list of concerns no?


 Except that they have a disproportionate voice in the public debate
 because their message is amplified by monied interests who depend on fossil
 fuel (e.g. the Koch brothers).  There was only a small number of lawyers,
 publicists, and scientists who claimed that:

 1. Smoking has nothing to do with lung cancer.
 2. There may be a relation but the science is uncertain.
 3. Lung cancer just occurs naturally.
 4. There are new, healthier cigarettes.
 5. It will hurt the economy to limit cigarettes.
 6. People should be free to smoke if they want to.

 and they delayed any government action against smoking for forty years.
  In fact some of them are *exactly* the same people hired to spread doubt
 about global warming.  To undertake big government action in a democracy
 you need a solid majority in the populace.  As long as libertarians and oil
 companies can sow doubt that's enough to prevent any action.



 Brent

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-11 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 12:04 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
 On 11/10/2013 2:19 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

 On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 10:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 On 11/10/2013 12:29 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

 As I said before, I am agnostic on this issue for the following reasons:

 - I am not educated in climate science and I am sufficiently educated
 in science to understand that it would take years of full-time effort
 to get to a point where I could judge the merit of climate science
 research findings by myself -- even there I would probably have to
 become an insider, because I understand that a lot of key data is
 never made publicly available;
 - I am sufficiently knowledgable of complex systems to be skeptical of
 the predictive power of any complex systems model at our current level
 of sophistication;
 - The issue became so heavily politicised that it is basically not
 reasonable to trust news reporting on either side of it.

 I am aware of the 5th IPCC report and I am also aware of claims by
 reputable climate scientists that the models' predictions appear to be
 deviating increasingly from the observables:


 http://judithcurry.com/2013/10/30/implications-for-climate-models-of-their-disagreement-with-observations/


 Are you aware that Judith Curry was on the Berkley Earth team to resolve
 the
 question of whether the earth is actually warming.  She and Richard
 Muller
 had been critical of the analyses performed by NOAA, Hadley, CRU, and
 GISS.
 When the new analysis, which met all the past criticisms, confirmed all
 the
 previous conclusions, she quit the team and shifted her criticism from
 it's
 not happening to it's not predictable.  Notice that means it could be
 a
 lot worse than predicted too - but the Deniers and FUDers never mention
 that.

 I've been around long enough to know that she could possibly describe
 the same sequence of events in a way that makes her look good and her
 opponents bad. I am more interested in the graphs.


 Then look at these:

 http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/02/2012-updates-to-model-observation-comparions/

Ok so what's wrong with Judith's graphs?



 I am not invested in disproving global warming. I like to think I am
 scientifically-minded, so I accept reality whatever it is. I hope it
 is wrong. I suspect some people want it to be true.


 Yes, you're the perfect example of the success of the Deniers FUD
 campaign.

 Maybe, but I would be more confident that I was witnessing a serious
 scientific debate if people were not using terms like Deniers and
 FUD campaign.


 But that's exactly the point.  You are NOT witnessing a serious scientific
 debate.  There's ZERO serious science on the side of Deniers.

This is an extraordinary claim. Zero serious science?

 They are like
 anti-evolutionist.

You resort too much to ad hominem and arguments from authority. If
we're having a long conversation about this then use it to teach me
something instead. Explain me the models and explain why the deniers
are wrong.

 All they do is look for some small anomaly (like a
 prediction that was off) and say, What about THAT?.  You are witnessing a
 disinformation campaign - and the cui bono is pretty obvious.



 98% of all climate scientists agree that AGW is happening and it will
 have
 bad consequences.

 This is a badly disguised argument from authority. It's precisely
 phrases like 98% of all climate scientists... that triggered my BS
 alarms in this issue.


 Since you said you didn't feel up to understanding the science what are you
 going to rely on?

I didn't say I didn't feel like it or that I was unwilling to do it. I
said I believed it would not be possible, with a reasonable amount of
effort, to have an informed opinion. Are you a climatologist? If not,
you seem to believe otherwise beacuse you arrived at a strong
conclusion. In which case, feel free to tell me about the models and
why it's easier to be certain than I think.

 Talking heads on Faux News or the IPCC?

This is a false dichotomy, of course. I sent you a link from the blog
of an accredited climate scientist. Her credentials seem legit, from
what I can gather from the Internet. Your reply to that was to attack
her character, not her ideas or data. This worries me.
I assume Faux News means Fox News? I'm not an american so I must have
watched Fox News two or three times in my life, out of morbid
curiosity when travelling. Plus a few funny videos on youtube that
people share.

Telmo.



   But you're aware of skeptical scientists, like Judith
 Curry (who are given TV time on Faux News), so it's a toss-up.  It's been
 heavily politicized - by money from the fossil fuel companies - so no
 news
 can be trusted.  You're not expert enough to read the scientific
 literature
 - so you're agnostic.

 This may be the case.

 You *suspect* some people want it to be true???

 Well I'm almost sure.

 In other words you suspect
 some academics of wanting to trash 

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-11 Thread LizR
The effects of global warming are visible in quite a few places around the
world now. Glaciers have retreated worldwide, and the Arctic sea ice is
getting thinner and not extending so far. Measurements indicate average
temperatures have risen, and there are of course increased levels of
atmospheric CO2. Since I am not an expert I have to trust those who are,
such as the World Meteorological Organization. Their latest report says the
planet experienced unprecedented high-impact climate extremes in the ten
years from 2001 to 2010, the warmest decade since the start of modern
measurements in 1850.

Those ten years also continued an extended period of accelerating global
warming, with more national temperature records reported broken than in any
previous decade. Sea levels rose about twice as fast as the trend in the
last century.

A WMO report, The Global Climate 2001-2010, A Decade of Climate
Extremeshttp://library.wmo.int/opac/index.php?lvl=notice_displayid=15110,
analyses global and regional temperatures and precipitation, and extreme
weather such as the heat waves in Europe and Russia, Hurricane Katrina in
the US, tropical cyclone Nargis in Myanmar, droughts in the Amazon basin,
Australia and East Africa, and floods in Pakistan.

Obviously they could all be politically motivated or in the pay of
mysterious socialist organisations, and it's always possible that their
modelling is wildly inaccurate, but unless someone is actually making up
the data and the measurements then *something* is going on which is causing
the world to warm. It appears to be an observational fact, and it's one
which has potentially dire consequences for the human race, since it can
wipe out swathes of the easy argicultural life we've enjoyed since the
start of the last interglacial.

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RE: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-11 Thread Chris de Morsella
Watch out the black helicopters are coming for you

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 1:21 AM
To: everything-list
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

No. 

 

In this case I´m not insulting,  just gently defending myself, since I´m a
Warmism infidel, I used to be a dangerous smoker , so may I have to pay for
it with my life if the next wave of human rights advocates take over. 

 

And, I have to confess, I fart from time to time and no doubt this will be
severely punished, as a noisy and smelly violation of Human Rights, by the
state and the International institutions in a few years.

 

2013/11/11 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com

When somebody doesn’t agree with you, do you then start insulting them?

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:36 PM
To: everything-list


Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

I think that, since the forces of progress and human dignity lost Siberia as
the location for stablishing psychiatrics to reconduct deviated enemies of
the People, The North and South poles can well be used to make global
warming negationist to reconsider is position against Humanity and human
rights.

 

Don´t you think so, comrade Meekerdb?

 

2013/11/10 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

On 11/9/2013 3:09 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 9:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 11/9/2013 9:37 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Brent, my analogy, however badly its thought-up, is to force the idealists
to produce. My idea was to force the idealist back to painful reality and
hard choices, rather then mentally living in La La land. Saying  Oh they're
working on solar and soon..

How about forcing the libertarians to painful reality.  They're going
through the six stages of denial:

1. There is no global warming.
2. The science is uncertain.
3. There's global warming but it's just a natural cycle.
4. Global warming will really be good for us.
5. It's too costly to stop global warming.
6. Nothing can be done.

Most of them I know are stuck around 3 or 4 now.  They're hoping to delay
any action so they can get to 6.  Why?  Because they'd rather face
extinction than admit there are some things that you need government to do.

Brent,

Out of curiosity: why do you care so much about what libertarians
think? They are a small minority. I believe most are very much aware
that big government is here to stay. Most people in the western world
vote for some variation of a conservative or liberal party, both
statist.

Surely if you are right, and global warming is an existential threat,
and government intervention is the only way to solve it, what
libertarians think should be quite low in your list of concerns no?


Except that they have a disproportionate voice in the public debate because
their message is amplified by monied interests who depend on fossil fuel
(e.g. the Koch brothers).  There was only a small number of lawyers,
publicists, and scientists who claimed that:

1. Smoking has nothing to do with lung cancer.
2. There may be a relation but the science is uncertain.
3. Lung cancer just occurs naturally.
4. There are new, healthier cigarettes.
5. It will hurt the economy to limit cigarettes.
6. People should be free to smoke if they want to.

and they delayed any government action against smoking for forty years.  In
fact some of them are *exactly* the same people hired to spread doubt about
global warming.  To undertake big government action in a democracy you need
a solid majority in the populace.  As long as libertarians and oil companies
can sow doubt that's enough to prevent any action.



Brent

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-- 
Alberto. 

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Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-11 Thread Alberto G. Corona
I will reject them with a pack of snuff and a fan. They will run towards
their politicians crying for their human rights


2013/11/11 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com

 Watch out the black helicopters are coming for you



 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alberto G. Corona
 *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2013 1:21 AM

 *To:* everything-list
 *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World



 No.



 In this case I´m not insulting,  just gently defending myself, since I´m a
 Warmism infidel, I used to be a dangerous smoker , so may I have to pay for
 it with my life if the next wave of human rights advocates take over.



 And, I have to confess, I fart from time to time and no doubt this will be
 severely punished, as a noisy and smelly violation of Human Rights, by the
 state and the International institutions in a few years.



 2013/11/11 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com

 When somebody doesn’t agree with you, do you then start insulting them?



 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alberto G. Corona
 *Sent:* Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:36 PM
 *To:* everything-list


 *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World



 I think that, since the forces of progress and human dignity lost Siberia
 as the location for stablishing psychiatrics to reconduct deviated enemies
 of the People, The North and South poles can well be used to make global
 warming negationist to reconsider is position against Humanity and human
 rights.



 Don´t you think so, comrade Meekerdb?



 2013/11/10 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

 On 11/9/2013 3:09 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

 On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 9:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 On 11/9/2013 9:37 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 Brent, my analogy, however badly its thought-up, is to force the idealists
 to produce. My idea was to force the idealist back to painful reality and
 hard choices, rather then mentally living in La La land. Saying  Oh
 they're
 working on solar and soon..

 How about forcing the libertarians to painful reality.  They're going
 through the six stages of denial:

 1. There is no global warming.
 2. The science is uncertain.
 3. There's global warming but it's just a natural cycle.
 4. Global warming will really be good for us.
 5. It's too costly to stop global warming.
 6. Nothing can be done.

 Most of them I know are stuck around 3 or 4 now.  They're hoping to delay
 any action so they can get to 6.  Why?  Because they'd rather face
 extinction than admit there are some things that you need government to do.

 Brent,

 Out of curiosity: why do you care so much about what libertarians
 think? They are a small minority. I believe most are very much aware
 that big government is here to stay. Most people in the western world
 vote for some variation of a conservative or liberal party, both
 statist.

 Surely if you are right, and global warming is an existential threat,
 and government intervention is the only way to solve it, what
 libertarians think should be quite low in your list of concerns no?


 Except that they have a disproportionate voice in the public debate
 because their message is amplified by monied interests who depend on fossil
 fuel (e.g. the Koch brothers).  There was only a small number of lawyers,
 publicists, and scientists who claimed that:

 1. Smoking has nothing to do with lung cancer.
 2. There may be a relation but the science is uncertain.
 3. Lung cancer just occurs naturally.
 4. There are new, healthier cigarettes.
 5. It will hurt the economy to limit cigarettes.
 6. People should be free to smoke if they want to.

 and they delayed any government action against smoking for forty years.
  In fact some of them are *exactly* the same people hired to spread doubt
 about global warming.  To undertake big government action in a democracy
 you need a solid majority in the populace.  As long as libertarians and oil
 companies can sow doubt that's enough to prevent any action.



 Brent

 --
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 --
 Alberto.

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 --
 You

Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

2013-11-11 Thread spudboy100

A Grand Council of Truth? And, you already know where I am going with this. One 
night, while dining at a restaurant, a good one, the High Reasoner, meets with 
an old friend to discuss the new FIFA rules issued for the World Cup. The 
friend slides over a closed sports magazine. Have a look at this article in 
the middle, here. Inside the magazine is a rather thick envelope.

-Original Message-
From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:06 am
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World




On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


 
Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it produces 
nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a complete failure. 



It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is below some 
level of corruption, in which case you can be misinfoirmed, and by not knowing 
it and being honest, you spread the lies and this leads to problem soon or 
later. Problems comes from the liars, but also from the people who have been 
lied. It is very often hard to delineate them.


Bruno








 
 
 
-Original Message-
 From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:49 pm
 Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
 
 
 

 
 
On 09 Nov 2013, at 19:09, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
 

 
I am emphasizing having governments print out (Keynes style) absolutely, 
colossal, amounts of cash, as a reward for coming up with excellent disease 
treatments and cures, human solar system tours, and clean energy solution, 
environmental remediation. If the banks won't fund researchers, then private 
equity will, if private equity won't then a million contributors-open 
source-will, provided they get a cut of the reward offered by a government 
prize. I wouldn't be shocked if you, Professor, Marchal, might summon up 25 
ECU's in exchange for receiving 3000 ECU's or Golden Yuans, in payment, 5 years 
later.  
 
 

 
 

 
 
Only if this reflects some honest contracts.
 

 
 
Honesty is not just moral, it is something which elevates a lot the real 
value of money. It generates trust. 
 

 
 
Be honest. 
 
If you don't try to be honest for the calm of your conscience, do it for the 
wealth of your children.
 

 
 
Today big corporations are based on lies. That's the problem.
 

 
 
Bruno
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
 
  
 
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
 


 
 
 
 
 
 
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



 



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