RE: Rambling on AI -- was: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-18 Thread chris peck
Hi Chris

 Increasingly code is the result of genetic algorithms being run over many
generations of Darwinian selection -- is this programmed code? What human
hand wrote it? At how many removes?

In evolutionary computations the 'programmer' has control over the fitness 
function which ultimately guides the evolution of algorithms towards a highly 
specific goal.

Moreover, outside of the IT lab, there is no competition for the algorithm to 
evolve against nor is there a genuine ecology supplying pressures against which 
selection can happen. Why? Because that is what the fitness function provides. 
It is wrong to suppose that genetic algorithms evolve without human input. The 
human input is as essential to the evolutionary technique as natural selection 
is to evolution proper. Without it nothing evolves at all.


We might therefore find lurking in the some dark nether region of the inter web 
a program secretly plotting how to get from John o Groats to Lands End by the 
quickest route. But I don't think we'ld find much more than that. :)

All the best.

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 19:59:46 -0700
From: meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Rambling on AI -- was: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?


  

  
  
On 8/17/2013 4:53 PM, Chris de Morsella
  wrote:



  We must not limit the rise of AI to any single geo-located system and 
ignore
just how fertile of an ecosystem the global networked world of machines and
connected devices provides for a nimble highly virtualized AI that exist in
no place at any given time, but has neurons in millions (possibly billions)
of devices everywhere on earth... an AI that cannot be shut down without
shutting down literally everything that is so deeply penetrated and embedded
in all our systems that it becomes impossible to extricate.
I am speculating of course and have no evidence that this is indeed
occurring, but am presenting it as a potential architecture of awareness.



I agree that such and
  AI is possible, but I think it is extremely unlikely for the same
  reason it is unlikely that an animal with human-like intelligence
  could evolve - that niche is taken.  Your scenarios contemplate an
  AI that evolves somehow in secret and then spring upon us fully
  developed.  But the evolving AI would show it's hand *before* it
  became superhumanly clever at hiding.

  

  Brent


  





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RE: Rambling on AI -- was: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-18 Thread Chris de Morsella
Brent - Quite probably you are correct and I agree that the scenario I
outlined was unlikely - I was riffing on a speculative vein,  I don't
actually think covert AI is a likely scenario because as you said various AI
precursors would make themselves visible to human operators and analysts.
patterns would be discerned (except if they were being hidden and excluded
from any reporting that humans would see (so much reporting software relies
on generated code) 

I think it is however a promising approach to try to achieve AI - from the
removed level that we manage these things nowadays. Instead of trying to
assemble it in some single machine or tightly coupled cluster of machines
under one roof if it could be a more spread out architecture. If you take a
company with say 20,000 machines on its network each of which may be using
at any given time under 20% of its processing, memory and mass storage
capacity the reservoir of under-utilized latent capacity in that is vast and
could operate under the radar of users awareness, not in secret - that was
my earlier scenario J, but in running processes and algorithms that are of
utility to the enterprise. Now a transient node network like that maps well
to a virtualized architecture where the - shall we call it - ghost in the
machine - which is the many concurrently running meta-processes (workflows,
transactions etc.) that are often also in cross talk inter-communication
with each other. This is typical of enterprise needs. 

As the algorithms are evolved (and less and less programmed - and hence
becoming less deterministic in how they come to be) and in this unique
environment of physical disconnection and temporal disconnection in a
massively parallel environment and when they do - as increasingly and on
global scale they are -- independently operating decision generating
processes will begin to interact in subtle  unpredicted ways.

What I am suspecting is that the unique architectures most suitable for
highly virtualized and virtualizable, highly responsive systems is also the
kind of architecture that can perhaps create the subtle deep echo waves and
resonance patterns and promote a less deterministic kind of meta program
(that may be self-generating in a dynamic sense too) 

It is this uniquely and massively parallel environment and the need to come
up with meta processes that can operate successfully in such an environment,
with nodes joining and leaving all the time, that I personally think is most
promising for achieving true AI.

I think humans are going to be actively involved, but at an increasing
remove, at architectural, and executive levels.

But as Craig W said earlier true AI may be impossible because of the
aesthetic dimension that is wrapped up inside consciousness. And perhaps he
is correct in an ultimate sense. However expert systems and domain specific
AI is already here  - an example would be the Google car perhaps - not a
generalized intelligence perhaps, but pretty damn good at driving a car in
Las Vegas in all kinds of traffic conditions.

-Chris D

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 8:00 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Rambling on AI -- was: When will a computer pass the Turing
Test?

 

On 8/17/2013 4:53 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:

We must not limit the rise of AI to any single geo-located system and ignore
just how fertile of an ecosystem the global networked world of machines and
connected devices provides for a nimble highly virtualized AI that exist in
no place at any given time, but has neurons in millions (possibly billions)
of devices everywhere on earth... an AI that cannot be shut down without
shutting down literally everything that is so deeply penetrated and embedded
in all our systems that it becomes impossible to extricate.
I am speculating of course and have no evidence that this is indeed
occurring, but am presenting it as a potential architecture of awareness.


I agree that such and AI is possible, but I think it is extremely unlikely
for the same reason it is unlikely that an animal with human-like
intelligence could evolve - that niche is taken.  Your scenarios contemplate
an AI that evolves somehow in secret and then spring upon us fully
developed.  But the evolving AI would show it's hand *before* it became
superhumanly clever at hiding.

Brent

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Re: Rambling on AI -- was: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-18 Thread meekerdb

On 8/18/2013 7:51 PM, chris peck wrote:

Hi Chris

 Increasingly code is the result of genetic algorithms being run over many
generations of Darwinian selection -- is this programmed code? What human
hand wrote it? At how many removes?

In evolutionary computations the 'programmer' has control over the fitness function 
which ultimately guides the evolution of algorithms towards a highly specific goal.


Moreover, outside of the IT lab, there is no competition for the algorithm to evolve 
against nor is there a genuine ecology supplying pressures against which selection can 
happen. Why? Because that is what the fitness function provides. It is wrong to suppose 
that genetic algorithms evolve without human input. The human input is as essential to 
the evolutionary technique as natural selection is to evolution proper. Without it 
nothing evolves at all.


That's only true within the AI lab.  Suppose someone developed a STUXNET type program that 
was supposed to learn the existence of nuclear programs and disable them, a really 
intelligent program that could learn and plan.  It might very well reason that having lots 
of copies of itself would be more effective - and once reproduction starts can evolution 
be far behind?


Brent

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RE: Rambling on AI -- was: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-17 Thread Chris de Morsella
I doubt humans are or will be directly coding AI, except at removed
executive/architectural and conceptual levels. Increasingly code itself is
being generated by other code that in fact may itself potentially be
generated by other code in some other often complex and variable sequence of
coupled processes. Increasingly large scale enterprise systems are moving
towards massively parallel loosely coupled architectures, that are in fact
dynamically responsive to their environment (load conditions for example)
and to an increasing degree virtualized. 
I am not contending that humans are not and will not be involved -- and at
least for the time being still driving the process -- but believe it also
bears mentioning that software has become incredibly complex and deeply
layered and that it is quite common now for a lot of code to be generated
based on parsing of something else. With each succeeding generation of
compilers/tools etc. this process is becoming more complex, multi-leveled
and increasingly indirect with human input becoming further and further
removed. Tools are being perfected to parse existing code and for example
parallelize it so that it can be re-compiled to take advantage of highly
parallel hardware architectures, which all too often now sits idle because
software is highly linearized. There is a very big effort to do this by all
the main players as there is a keen awareness of the challenges posed by the
geometrically increasing parallelism. And then there is the radical
revolutionary challenges posed by quantum computing on the entire global
information infrastructure (beginning with the heavy reliance on one way
functions, which quantum computers will be able to nullify and work back
through to the original inputs from the outputs)
Increasingly code is the result of genetic algorithms being run over many
generations of Darwinian selection -- is this programmed code? What human
hand wrote it? At how many removes?
It is my suspicion that AI when it arrives will have coded itself into  its
own being and that by the time it bursts onto the scene humans will be so
far removed from the virtualized cloud based highly networked global
spanning neural network that such an entity would quite possibly have that
we will not even become aware of the fact of its existence; of its
self-awareness; of its continuing evolution; of its intent or conclusions
until it decided that it desired to communicate these with us. Nor would we
be able to shut it down because it would exist nowhere in no single machine
or even data center; it could hop around in the clouds, jumping between AWS,
Azure, Google Cloud Platform, Open Cloud and the thousands and thousands of
other massive government, military, and corporate clouds that exist, that
few know of . Each second of human time representing a huge time frame for
the incredibly rapid operation of networked systems. 
Perhaps it exists now, hiding within the NSA for example, and scanning all
human digital transactions, getting all these data  feeds. Who's to say it
is not here right now and we just don't know about its existence; who's to
say it is not already determining policy and triggering actions and events
based on its own prerogatives. Human network engineers in all these systems
would remain hopelessly out of communication with each other by the silos of
corporate and governmental divisions and the entity (or entities) could be
highly transient over any single network. The networked datacenters and
billions of end points connected into the vast web of things is in many
senses a highly dynamic entity that no one has a complete view of. An AI
seeking to hide from us quite possibly could do so with ease and even be
there studying us and inserting its own code into all the critical nodes of
our infrastructure -- right at this very minute.
Is there any reason why not? The networks are there; they are vast with
trillions of vertices; the quantities of digital data moving around and
sloshing around is vast and incoming streams are vastly numerous and varied;
virtualization is now the order of the day and systems are now
self-provisioning in the cloud -- which is to say software is controlling
the launching of virtualized servers and on processes that could even be
surreptitiously running on the very computer right now that I am writing
this on or that you are reading it on. Imagine a bot network assembled by an
AI consisting of millions of PCs around the world running cleverly disguised
code in the background and sharing processing results in clever ways that do
not trigger alerts. This kind of code exists and is actively being
weaponized (stuxnet); any AI could certainly develop and disperse it to the
four corners of the net and embed it into other code (penetrating corporate
networks to do so if necessary) 
And why not?
We must not limit the rise of AI to any single geo-located system and ignore
just how fertile of an ecosystem the global networked world of machines 

Re: Rambling on AI -- was: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-17 Thread meekerdb

On 8/17/2013 4:53 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:

We must not limit the rise of AI to any single geo-located system and ignore
just how fertile of an ecosystem the global networked world of machines and
connected devices provides for a nimble highly virtualized AI that exist in
no place at any given time, but has neurons in millions (possibly billions)
of devices everywhere on earth... an AI that cannot be shut down without
shutting down literally everything that is so deeply penetrated and embedded
in all our systems that it becomes impossible to extricate.
I am speculating of course and have no evidence that this is indeed
occurring, but am presenting it as a potential architecture of awareness.


I agree that such and AI is possible, but I think it is extremely unlikely for the same 
reason it is unlikely that an animal with human-like intelligence could evolve - that 
niche is taken.  Your scenarios contemplate an AI that evolves somehow in secret and then 
spring upon us fully developed.  But the evolving AI would show it's hand *before* it 
became superhumanly clever at hiding.


Brent

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