Re: Re: Re: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion
Hi Russell Standish Intelligence is nothing. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 11/17/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Russell Standish Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-16, 19:10:02 Subject: Re: Re: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 05:40:10AM -0600, Roger Clough wrote: > > The more interesting question is how the physical universe could have > been created out of the nonphysical, which I take to be intelligence. > There are many accounts of how something (the universe) could have arisen from nothing without the need of a prior intelligence. See some of Vic Stenger's book, or my book "Theory of Nothing". Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion
On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 05:40:10AM -0600, Roger Clough wrote: > > The more interesting question is how the physical universe could have > been created out of the nonphysical, which I take to be intelligence. > There are many accounts of how something (the universe) could have arisen from nothing without the need of a prior intelligence. See some of Vic Stenger's book, or my book "Theory of Nothing". Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion
Hi Stephen, Hogan appears to be a total skeptic. What can I say ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 11/16/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Roger Clough Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-15, 10:45:18 Subject: Re: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion Hi Stephen P. King He's got his work cut out for him, not so much as casting doubt on other's theories, but in explaining all of the data obtained with alternate theorie. In which case, the Big Bang simply happened another way than that taught. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 11/15/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-15, 06:41:21 Subject: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion On 11/15/2012 6:20 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno and Russell, The evidence of a Big Bang is enormous. See, for example: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html Hi Roger, I invite you to read James P. Hogan's Kicking the Sacred Cow. It discusses the BB (among other things) in a different light. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion
Hi Russell Standish OK. So something happened and the physical universe expanded out of that. Or there were even a series of such explosions, which is Penrose's contention. Fine, as long as they explain the facts. The more interesting question is how the physical universe could have been created out of the nonphysical, which I take to be intelligence. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 11/16/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Russell Standish Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-15, 15:55:10 Subject: Re: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 05:20:14AM -0600, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Bruno and Russell, > > The evidence of a Big Bang is enormous. See, for example: > Of course, but the big bang is not the same thing as the beginning of the universe. Also, the cosmic microwave background, which is the direct observational evidence of the big bang comes from the last scattering, when electrons and nuclei combined for the last time into atomic matter and stayed that way. Red shift surveys can only give information about the age of the last scattering, and even then, interpreting it as a certain number of years can only occur within a specific model of the universe - the Friedmann model is often used because of its simplicity - even though we now know the universe evolved quite differently from the Friedmann model due to things like dark energy, which introduces far too much uncertainty to claim that the inverse of an accurate Hubble constant is "the age of the universe" The big bang theory gives an account of the evolution of the universe from a quark-gluon soup to the last scattering, and gives quite a good account of the 300,000 years before the last scattering. Accounts of what happened prior to the quark-gluon plasma are highly speculative, including inflation theory, and are likely to be revised as science progresses. In some of those speculations, the actual beginning of the universe occurred much earlier, or in the infinite past. Actually, according to Wikipedia: Though the universe might in theory have a longer history, the International Astronomical Union [4] presently use "age of the universe" to mean the duration of the Lambda-CDM expansion, or equivalently the elapsed time since the Big Bang in the current observable universe. Lambda-CDM is apparently the most widely accepted model of how the universe expanded since the big bang. I didn't realise the IAU has defined an "age of the universe", but its anything but. Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion
On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 08:55:10AM +1100, Russell Standish wrote: > > Actually, according to Wikipedia: > > Though the universe might in theory have a longer history, the > International Astronomical Union [4] presently use "age of the > universe" to mean the duration of the Lambda-CDM expansion, or > equivalently the elapsed time since the Big Bang in the current > observable universe. > > > Lambda-CDM is apparently the most widely accepted model of how the > universe expanded since the big bang. I didn't realise the IAU has > defined an "age of the universe", but its anything but. > > Hence I retract my crack about journalists -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 05:20:14AM -0600, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Bruno and Russell, > > The evidence of a Big Bang is enormous. See, for example: > Of course, but the big bang is not the same thing as the beginning of the universe. Also, the cosmic microwave background, which is the direct observational evidence of the big bang comes from the last scattering, when electrons and nuclei combined for the last time into atomic matter and stayed that way. Red shift surveys can only give information about the age of the last scattering, and even then, interpreting it as a certain number of years can only occur within a specific model of the universe - the Friedmann model is often used because of its simplicity - even though we now know the universe evolved quite differently from the Friedmann model due to things like dark energy, which introduces far too much uncertainty to claim that the inverse of an accurate Hubble constant is "the age of the universe" The big bang theory gives an account of the evolution of the universe from a quark-gluon soup to the last scattering, and gives quite a good account of the 300,000 years before the last scattering. Accounts of what happened prior to the quark-gluon plasma are highly speculative, including inflation theory, and are likely to be revised as science progresses. In some of those speculations, the actual beginning of the universe occurred much earlier, or in the infinite past. Actually, according to Wikipedia: Though the universe might in theory have a longer history, the International Astronomical Union [4] presently use "age of the universe" to mean the duration of the Lambda-CDM expansion, or equivalently the elapsed time since the Big Bang in the current observable universe. Lambda-CDM is apparently the most widely accepted model of how the universe expanded since the big bang. I didn't realise the IAU has defined an "age of the universe", but its anything but. Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion
Hi Stephen P. King He's got his work cut out for him, not so much as casting doubt on other's theories, but in explaining all of the data obtained with alternate theorie. In which case, the Big Bang simply happened another way than that taught. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 11/15/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-15, 06:41:21 Subject: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion On 11/15/2012 6:20 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno and Russell, The evidence of a Big Bang is enormous. See, for example: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html Hi Roger, I invite you to read James P. Hogan's Kicking the Sacred Cow. It discusses the BB (among other things) in a different light. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion
Rubbish, it not a measurement of the age of the universe, but rather of the Hubble constant. It only corresponds to the age of the universe in the context of a specific theory, usually the Friedmann universe, which is one of the simplests solutions to Einstein's theory of general relativity. Journalists tend to oversimplify things, and get it so wrong. Cheers On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 08:01:46AM -0500, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Russell Standish > > It's not theory, it's measurement to 4 figures, with an error of plus or > minus 0.87 %: > > http://www.universetoday.com/13371/1373-billion-years-the-most-accurate-measurement-of-the-age-of-the-universe-yet/ > > "13.73 Billion Years -- The Most Precise Measurement of the Age of the > Universe Yet > by Ian O'Neill on March 28, 2008 > Want to stay on top of all the space news? Follow @universetoday on Twitter > > NASA? Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) has taken the best > measurement of the age of the Universe to date. > According to highlyprecise observations of microwave radiation observed all > over the cosmos, WMAP scientists now have the > best estimate yet on the age of the Universe: > 13.73 billion years, plus or minus 120 million years (that's an error margin > of only 0.87% ! not bad really). > > The WMAP mission was sent to the Sun-Earth second Lagrangian point (L2), > located approximately 1.5 million km > from the surface of the Earth on the night-side (i.e. WMAP is constantly in > the shadow of the Earth) in 2001. > > The reason for this location is the nature of the gravitational stability in > the region and the lack of > electromagnetic interference from the Sun. Constantly looking out into > space, WMAP scans the > cosmos with its ultra sensitive microwave receiver, mapping any small > variations in the background temperature (anisotropy) of the universe. It can > detect microwave radiation in the wavelength range of 3.3-13.6 mm > (with a corresponding frequency of 90-22 GHz). Warm and cool regions of space > are therefore mapped, including the radiation polarity. > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > 11/11/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > - Receiving the following content - > From: Russell Standish > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-11-10, 17:39:09 > Subject: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion > > > Not quite. It has measured that the universe 14 billion year ago was > very different from now, ie very hot and dense. All else is theory - > some theories have a beginning, others don't. > > Cheers > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 05:50:38AM -0500, Roger Clough wrote: > > Hi Stephen, > > > > Science has meaured the beginning of the universe > > to have occured about 14 billion years ago. > > So it has a beginning. > > > > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > > 11/10/2012 > > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > > > > - Receiving the following content - > > From: Hal Ruhl > > Receiver: everything-list > > Time: 2012-11-09, 12:26:47 > > Subject: RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum > > > > > > Hi Stepen: > > > > Interesting post. > > > > I indicated in the initiating posts that life should rapidly appear where > > the conditions supporting it are found. > > > > I suspect that in most cases the sphere of influence for a particular > > instance of a biosphere is small when compared to the size of the universe. > > > > Therefore I propose to change "heat death" to "operative heat death" re > > your > > "finite resolving power" for observers. This should allow for the > > possibility of an "open" universe. > > > > I am also considering changing "purpose of life" to "function of life". > > > > Thanks > > > > Hal > > > > > > Dear Hal, > > > > What consequences would there be is the Universe (all that exists) is > > truly infinite and eternal (no absolute beginning or end) and what we > > observe as a finite (spatially and temporally) universe is just the result > > of our finite ability to compute the contents of our observations? It is > > helpful to remember that thermodynamic arguments, such as the heat engine > > concept, apply only to closed systems. It is better to assume open systems > > and finite resolving power (or equivalently finite computational abilities) > > > > for observers. > > > > -- > > Onward! > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > > > --
Re: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion
Hi Russell Standish It's not theory, it's measurement to 4 figures, with an error of plus or minus 0.87 %: http://www.universetoday.com/13371/1373-billion-years-the-most-accurate-measurement-of-the-age-of-the-universe-yet/ "13.73 Billion Years -- The Most Precise Measurement of the Age of the Universe Yet by Ian O'Neill on March 28, 2008 Want to stay on top of all the space news? Follow @universetoday on Twitter NASA? Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) has taken the best measurement of the age of the Universe to date. According to highlyprecise observations of microwave radiation observed all over the cosmos, WMAP scientists now have the best estimate yet on the age of the Universe: 13.73 billion years, plus or minus 120 million years (that's an error margin of only 0.87% ! not bad really). The WMAP mission was sent to the Sun-Earth second Lagrangian point (L2), located approximately 1.5 million km from the surface of the Earth on the night-side (i.e. WMAP is constantly in the shadow of the Earth) in 2001. The reason for this location is the nature of the gravitational stability in the region and the lack of electromagnetic interference from the Sun. Constantly looking out into space, WMAP scans the cosmos with its ultra sensitive microwave receiver, mapping any small variations in the background temperature (anisotropy) of the universe. It can detect microwave radiation in the wavelength range of 3.3-13.6 mm (with a corresponding frequency of 90-22 GHz). Warm and cool regions of space are therefore mapped, including the radiation polarity. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/11/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Russell Standish Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-10, 17:39:09 Subject: Re: 14 billion years ago there was a huge explosion Not quite. It has measured that the universe 14 billion year ago was very different from now, ie very hot and dense. All else is theory - some theories have a beginning, others don't. Cheers On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 05:50:38AM -0500, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Stephen, > > Science has meaured the beginning of the universe > to have occured about 14 billion years ago. > So it has a beginning. > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > 11/10/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > - Receiving the following content - > From: Hal Ruhl > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-11-09, 12:26:47 > Subject: RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum > > > Hi Stepen: > > Interesting post. > > I indicated in the initiating posts that life should rapidly appear where > the conditions supporting it are found. > > I suspect that in most cases the sphere of influence for a particular > instance of a biosphere is small when compared to the size of the universe. > Therefore I propose to change "heat death" to "operative heat death" re your > "finite resolving power" for observers. This should allow for the > possibility of an "open" universe. > > I am also considering changing "purpose of life" to "function of life". > > Thanks > > Hal > > > Dear Hal, > > What consequences would there be is the Universe (all that exists) is > truly infinite and eternal (no absolute beginning or end) and what we > observe as a finite (spatially and temporally) universe is just the result > of our finite ability to compute the contents of our observations? It is > helpful to remember that thermodynamic arguments, such as the heat engine > concept, apply only to closed systems. It is better to assume open systems > and finite resolving power (or equivalently finite computational abilities) > for observers. > > -- > Onward! > > Stephen > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---
