Hi Bruno Marchal 1. Head= Mind or thought
Saying something doesn't make it true. But, true or not, it cannot be conveyed to others without expressing it in symbols or words. 2. Heart or feeling. Beauty is expressed in images and the like. 3. Body or action. Goodness is expressed in actions. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/31/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-31, 08:24:39 Subject: Re: A few definitions of the categories and two examples of theiruse(in perception) On 31 Dec 2012, at 14:13, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Cowboy, > > Reason and truth can only be expressed objectively in words, and > symbols. > They are public, communicable expressions. Reason only. Truth is public only in bet and inference. Public truth is always "truth?". Bruno > > Experience is subjective (1p) and so cannot be so expressed, at > least precisely. > The objective expression or description of an experience (3p) for > communcation purposes is therefore never exact. > > [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] > 12/31/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Bruno Marchal > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-12-30, 10:48:19 > Subject: Re: A few definitions of the categories and two examples of > their use(in perception) > > > > > On 29 Dec 2012, at 21:32, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: > > > Hi Bruno, > > > On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > > On 29 Dec 2012, at 16:07, Roger Clough wrote: > > > The classic example > > 3p= thirdness= is when I react to the pain > > > > Hmm.. this is the idea, except that with comp, this will be only > plural_1p. But no problem as, locally, first person plural behaves > like a 3p notion. That is indeed why we confuse them and believe the > mind comes from matter activity, when eventually matter activity is > a way mind articulate the information about its the most probable > computations. > > > > > > 2p = secondness = is when I feel the pain > > 1p = firstness = is when somebody stick me with a pin (Quale) > > > > Is not "I feel pain" a quale? > > > > > > > > > Also > > 3p is when I know and/or say that the coffee tastes bad (mind or > reason) > > > > ? If you can use reason to explain a taste, I will ask you the method. > > > > The method is specializing in summing magnitudes of local > infinities. With long enough computational history, you can thus > explain a taste, even with fuzzy linguistic markers. Like wine > tasters will agree that a vintage has a layer of "shoe leather". > > > > This means you can educate taste, not really explaining it. Here I > meant explaining taste to someone having no taste, or explaining > what is taste. > > > > > > > > Whether the receiver of the message "understands" is a different > question and is domain related. Say math, you cannot communicate > with me some funky tensor equation with words alone, unless I have > enough computational history with the concept in question. > > > > Here you are right, in the sense that I can't explain the natural > numbers, if you don't have some intuition of them already. Once you > agree on numbers, I can explain the tensor, even if it can take time. > > > > > > > > > > Music is deceptive, in that everybody has apparent access but I > don't think I have to make the case that some music is tasteless. > Therefore, not everybody has musical taste. > > > > Same for wine. > > > > > > Having said that, I'll grant, with sufficient computational history, > there are schools of taste that differ. Like the styles that > different architects come to prefer. But with such history, even a > romantic-school architect, will concede that a building is well > designed by a minimalist Bauhaus style architect and can get versed > in that style, or the magnitudes of those local infinities. > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > In french we say popularly that "about taste and color we don't > argue". (Des go?s et des couleurs on ne discute pas). > > > > That's because Francophones have no taste, they just try to sell the > notion that they do for marketing ;) > > In Germany this is more ambiguous, as we have the equivalent > statement but also its negation: a popular turn-of-phrase is "?er > Geschmack l?st sich bekanntlich streiten." Roughly translates "On > matters taste, we can argue/negotiate/dispute", which fits with the > fuzzy linguistic statement above. > > But alas, Germans are known for their lack of taste and world wars > and we don't market our wines and cheeses so well. It is still fact > however, that Germany exports more cheese to France than the > opposite. We just give it some Italian name, and the French buy it, > as anybody with culinary taste will not buy from the Krauts: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambozola > > Yup, that's German and the French buy more of that from the > supermarket shelves than Germans buy Roquefort and co. > > > > I like both culinary arts, but then my country is influenced by > both. I think we develop taste early in the childhood. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2p is when I am tasting something funny about the coffee. (feeling > or sensing) > > > > I will ask you for the coffee recipe. > > > Funny? > > > Cannabis, salvia or even alcohol, I can imagine. But Coffee!?! > > > > Same. I want that coffee :) > > PGC > > > > > > :) > > > Bruno > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1p is when I take a sip of coffee.(body-QUALE- input to sensing > nerves) > > > > > OK, I see why you say this. > > > Keep in mind in UDA 1p is just defined by the content of the diary > of the guy or girl annihilated and reconstituted, with their diary, > as opposed to the diary of an external observer (3p). In AUDA the 1p > is defined by "a correct belief" with respect to a probable situation. > > > Just to help you for other threads. > > > Bruno > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > A Few Definitions of the categories > > http://www.cspeirce.com/menu/library/bycsp/newlist/nl-frame.htm > > > The Categories as used in perception: > > I 1p--Quality (Reference to a Ground), > II 2p-- Relation (Reference to a Correlate), > II 3p--Representation (Reference to an Interpretant), > > I 1p-- Quale (that which refers to a ground), > II 2p--Relate (that which refers to a ground and correlate, ) > III 3p--Representamen (that which refers to ground, correlate, and > interpretant. ) > > > http://www.helsinki.fi/science/commens/terms/secondness.html > > "Careful analysis shows that to the three grades of valency of > indecomposable concepts correspond > three classes of characters or predicates. > > Firstly come " firstnesses," or positive internal characters of the > subject in itself; > > secondly come "secondnesses," or brute actions of one subject or > substance on another, > regardless of law or of any third subject; > > thirdly comes "thirdnesses," or the mental or quasi-mental influence > of one subject on > another relatively to a third." ('Pragmatism', CP 5.469, 1907) > > > > Firstness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is, > positively and without reference to anything else. > Secondness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is, with > respect to a second but regardless of any third. > Thirdness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is, in > bringing a second and third into relation to each other." > > > >>> >>> The following equivalences should hold >> > >>> 3p = Thirdness or III >>> 2p = Secondness or II >>> 1p = Firstness or I. >>> >>> Comp seems to only use analytic or deductive logic, >>> while Peirce's categories are epistemological (synthetic >>> logic) categories, in which secondness is an integral part. >>> So . >>> >>> Here's what Peirce has to say about his categorioes: >>> >>> http://www.helsinki.fi/science/commens/terms/secondness.html >>> >>> >>> "Firstness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is, >>> positively and without reference to anything else. >>> >>> Secondness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is, >>> with respect to a second but regardless of any third. >>> >>> Thirdness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is, >>> in bringing a second and third into relation to each other." >>> (A Letter to Lady Welby, CP 8.328, 1904)" >>> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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