Hi Russell Standish
1) It is a cruelty of nature to make the two IMHO most powerful thinkers
(Peirce and Leibniz) to be the two most difficult to understand.
I would not throw them out just yet.
2) If somebody can make something useful out of autopoesis,
more power to them. At first, it looked like the solution
to everything, but then I just couldn't find anything to grasp.
With the exception of Peirce, I found semiotics to be similar.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/16/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Russell Standish
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-15, 18:05:59
Subject: Re: Computational Secondness 1 (formerly Computational Autopoetics 1)
I'm more than happy for you to explore this, and report back when you
can explain it in terms other than the Peircean trinity. I never found
the Peircean classification to shed light or insight into
anything. YMMV though, of course!
I'm curious to know why you think autopoetic is misleading. My
criticism of it was more along the lines that it has never shown
itself to be useful in practice, not that the concept itself is confused.
Cheers
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 09:22:12AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Russell Standish
A self-organizing system is not what I proposed because
in such a system it is the output (Thirdness) that organizes
itself. And autopoetics is also apparently a misleading term.
I was seduced by its academic associations.
Instead, I see now that what I am proposing is
Computational Secondness. This would be a
Peirce-type epistemological machine, where
Firstness = the raw input = perception, consciousness
Secondness= that which creates order out of the Firstness (the living,
intelligent part)
Thirdness = the structured or ordered output, which may be alive or not be
alive.
Intelligence in my machine is pure Secondness.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/15/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Russell Standish
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-14, 17:27:50
Subject: Re: Computational Autopoetics 1
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 04:44:11PM -0400, Roger Clough wrote:
Computational Autopoetics is a term I just coined to denote applying
basic concepts
of autopoetics to the field of comp. You mathematicians are free to do it
more justice
than I can. I cannot guarantee that the idea hasn't already been exploited,
but I have
seen no indication of that.
The idea is this: that we borrow a basic characteristic of autopoetics,
namely that life is
essentially not a thing but the act of creation. This means that we define
life as the creative act of generating structure from some input data. By
this
pramatic definition, it is not necessarily the structure that is produced
that is alive, but
life consists of the act of creating structure from assumedly structureless
input data.
Life is not a creation, but instead is the act of creation.
So any self-organised system should be called alive then? Sand dunes,
huricanes, stars, galaxies. Hey, we've just found ET!
Actually, I was just reading an interview with my old mate Charley
Lineweaver in New Scientist, and he was saying the same thing :).
If life is such a creative act rather than a creation, then it seems to fit
what
I have been postulating as the basic inseparable ingredients of life:
intelligence
and free will.
I don't believe intelligence is required for creativity. Biological
evolution is undeniably creative.
... Rest deleted, because I cannot follow you there.
--
Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au
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Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/15/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Russell Standish
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-14, 17:27:50
Subject: Re: Computational Autopoetics 1
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 04:44:11PM -0400, Roger Clough wrote:
Computational Autopoetics is a term I
