Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?
Hi Bruno Marchal I feel exactly as you do. I would never have Nietzsche's books burned, there is much of value in them. Or at least some value. His criticism of reason's being used by Christianity, for example, parallels to an appreciable extent Luther's criticism of the Catholic church, three centuries previously, which held reason and action over faith (Luther held faith over everything). That was the breaking point for the Reformation. Luther in fact said that Reason is the Devil's whore. He later softened that view but just a little. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 05:39:11 Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? On 06 Nov 2012, at 17:45, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: Hi Roger, If you want to read him that trivially, go ahead. The constant, eternal revaluation of all values. This is just implied by asking what's going on?. And yes, this is gently consistent with never ending platonic questioning + a popper style negation, even humor, on his own statements, that they are wrong, that they not be overly concretized. Nietzsche never taught his own ideas, although he was active academically very early. If you'd open a single page, you'd see how conflicted he was about the transmission of fruits of introspection. But I wouldn't want to offend you with any of that, or that I think he anticipated the computer + its consequences more than once, as you already have made up your mind in a rather discriminatory fashion without reading the man/machine in his native language, so... I am not merely a platonist: also guitar cowboy and dance and jam in every realm I can and keep my platonism in check with my sense of groove and swing + good steak, now and then. I have a taste for the Dionysian joys, for colors, and richness, variety as much as I love Platonia. But Platonia, in this abstract technical sense you imply, is pretty joyless and dull. Nietzsche is good antidote for that. On Kant he mused once: What kind of a soul must build such an unassailable fortress of thought? What is it distracting itself from, building these labyrinths of descriptive power for a group of disciples it will never admit to itself, that it vainly wants to have? For why else build such fortresses? For these reason I'd suggest for you to not read him, especially not in German. Right on with garbage he taught, would be the first thing he'd admit and laugh. It does look we agree that Nietzsche was a poet with a deep talent. I read Also Sprach Zarathustra, in german and in french, and I love it, but, later, rereading it, I got a feeling of uneasiness. I got it also with many people idolatring Nietzche, or taking granted what he said, I dunno. It might be, correct me if I am wrong, a sort of remanent atheism in the work, or perhaps it is, like with art, just a question of taste. May be I have unconsciously rely his uber mensh with what happened in WW II. I certainly do appreciare Richard Strauss Also Sprach Zarathustra, but that's thanks to 2001 Space Odyssey, plausibly! Bruno PGC On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy So what ? I have no stomach for the revaluation of all values and the other garbage Nietzsche taught. If you are truly a platonist, you would agree with me. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/6/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 10:35:15 Subject: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? Hi Roger, So what? On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy By poet, I suspect that Bruno was attesting to Nietzsche's ability to think in terms of metaphors (such as Apollo and Dionysius in his Genealogy of Morals. ) Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/6/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 07:48:01 Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Bruno Marchal ?rote: On 05 Nov 2012, at 13:43, Roger Clough wrote: Shades of Nietzsche ! Tell me it isn't so ! No, it is not so. No worry to have. I am glad we share some uneasiness with Nietzche. I take it for a great poet, but a bad philosopher. ? Then your German is better than mine, as a native speaker. Having enough distance and humor for one's own statements doesn't come through much in the translations. I don't think he ever took himself seriously as a philosopher, and he often pokes subtly fun
Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?
: Re: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? Hi Roger, If you want to read him that trivially, go ahead. The constant, eternal revaluation of all values. This is just implied by asking what's going on?. And yes, this is gently consistent with never ending platonic questioning + a popper style negation, even humor, on his own statements, that they are wrong, that they not be overly concretized. Nietzsche never taught his own ideas, although he was active academically very early. If you'd open a single page, you'd see how conflicted he was about the transmission of fruits of introspection. But I wouldn't want to offend you with any of that, or that I think he anticipated the computer + its consequences more than once, as you already have made up your mind in a rather discriminatory fashion without reading the man/machine in his native language, so... I am not merely a platonist: also guitar cowboy and dance and jam in every realm I can and keep my platonism in check with my sense of groove and swing +? good steak, now and then. I have a taste for the Dionysian joys, for colors, and richness, variety as much as I love Platonia. But Platonia, in this abstract technical sense you imply, is pretty joyless and dull. Nietzsche is good antidote for that. On Kant he mused once: What kind of a soul must build such an unassailable fortress of thought? What is it distracting itself from, building these labyrinths of descriptive power for a group of disciples it will never admit to itself, that it vainly wants to have? For why else build such fortresses? For these reason I'd suggest for you to not read him, especially not in German. Right on with garbage he taught, would be the first thing he'd admit and laugh. PGC On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy So what ? I have no stomach for the revaluation of all values and the other garbage Nietzsche taught. If you are truly a platonist, you would agree with me. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/6/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 10:35:15 Subject: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? Hi Roger, So what? On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Roger Clough ?rote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy By poet, I suspect that Bruno was attesting to Nietzsche's ability to think in terms of metaphors (such as Apollo and Dionysius in his Genealogy of Morals. ) Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/6/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 07:48:01 Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Bruno Marchal ?rote: On 05 Nov 2012, at 13:43, Roger Clough wrote: Shades of Nietzsche ! Tell me it isn't so ! No, it is not so. No worry to have. I am glad we share some uneasiness with Nietzche. I take it for a great poet, but a bad philosopher. ? Then your German is better than mine, as a native speaker. Having enough distance and humor for one's own statements doesn't come through much in the translations. I don't think he ever took himself seriously as a philosopher, and he often pokes subtly fun at the notion. Ok, I'll get back to the herd then :) Cowboy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy That fellow seemingly accepted all of Neitzche's views, as you seem to. I didn't say that one shouldn't endorse Nietzsche's views, that's your business, not mine. I don't, but that's my prerogative. I just just said that they are obviously incompatible with those of Plato. Note that also, later on in The Republic, Plato banned all poets, which was a strong suit of Nietzche's, he was masterly with metaphors. Overall, I doubt if Nietzsche and Plato would get along. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 10:43:52 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? Hi Roger, If you have to quote Nietzsche enemies to make your ideological point, go ahead. This tells its own story, I don't have to comment further on. The Slave/Master thing boils down to something simpler than all this: do we want to rule ourselves or be ruled? Platonism he attacks insofar, as he points out that too many, the herd, want to apparently be ruled and do not want to step up to empower themselves genuinely, or fear doing so. This should not stop the affirmative spirit from reaching for more positive notion of ethics and politics. But if we don't fight for this affirmation, stand up to tyrannical ideas in an unbounded way, then we shouldn't scratch our heads at why we will remain slaves. Trivially, he speaks of honesty as recognizing power as the main currency of human: let us not kid ourselves here, the people that run things will continue to shape society's identity. To be able to affirm, we have to struggle to reach the child's holy yes, but to do so, he thinks it inevitable that we've got to become Lions first. Whereby the Lion's No! is but means to the child's eternal unbounded yes as an end, and in no shape or form primary to him as your copied quote suggests. That's just plain wrong. The Yes remains primary throughout, but we have dirty work to do, is more accurate. And this grates with Platonism, in that he fears it lacks lion, to achieve the affirmation it pertains to stand for. A Yes-Person without power is a slave to him. This makes people uncomfortable even today, I guess. This is no contradiction for me with Platonism; rather he updates its affirmative quality and relativizes its we don't know, so we won't move aspect; the donkey aspect of Platonism for him. Yes, he announces the Dionysian affirmation that no negation can defile BUT in less primary terms he denounces the affirmation of the platonist donkey who doesn't know how to say No!. Nietzsche doesn't attack human reason in itself as your quote unwittingly states, he attacks blind faith in the reasoner: go out and dance a little, loose yourself, get a bit high, make some sweet love, will ya, before you take yourself too seriously? seems more accurate to me, than this platitude of attacking reason, like some highschool punk, via argument in transparent trivial contradiction. If the writer of the quote makes Nietzsche out to be that stupid, I rest my case, that your quote is ideological concerning Nietzsche, never having understood the kind of reasoning I am pointing towards. Cowboy, Jamaican Lion Style :) On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy You're welcome to endorse Nietszche's attack on reason, but I can't see how anybody could be a platonist at the same time. Consider this (apparently by somebody else sympathetic to Nietzsche's views): http://groups.able2know.org/philforum/topic/1803-1 In his book The Geneology of Morals Nietzsche attacks what he calls slave morality and advances what he calls master morality. Platonism, to Nietzsche is a version of slave morality and Nietzsche goes on to call Christianity Platonism for the people. Slave morality is a morality which holds the good to be the highest point that humans could reach for and master morality is a morality that is created by the elite, aristocratic group within society and this master group holds the masses of the people under its inevitably oppressive rule. The masters of master morality make the rules because they alone have the capacity to be responsible. Nietzsche goes on to say that slavery in some sense or another must exist if any society is to approach greatness. The 'good' for Nietzsche lays in the hierarchical structure which gives absolute power only to those few who are capable of wielding it: the top most tier of the aristocratic hierarchy are the people who give meaning and value to the society, they are identical with the society's inner identity. But there is more to the story. Nietzsche also attacks the modern philosophical systems such as Kant's. He accuses philosophical system builders as being purveyors of slave
Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?
Hi Roger, You make me smile, without sarcasm. Usually he is accused of being too right in asserting will to power and his views on slave morality are usually used to justify this. If you do read him, note that his bombastic style, physical and naturalist metaphors and claims are where his insecurities reside: he doesn't hide this. Genealogy of Morals is sub-titled a Polemic, after all. He likes to stir things up. But once you get passed this unease, you'll just find another wrong lover of love, with an astonishing ability to dream and predict our chaos. But thank god the conservatives are NOT in power now: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/07/colorado-washington-pot-legalization-_n_2086023.html Good news for Nietzsche and Dionysian affirmation, this. :) Cowboy On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Cowboy, Without meaning to make any judgement, or mean any insult, sociologically Nietzsche is representative of the far left. Those people used to puzzle me (I am a conservative) since they were essentially hostile to all authority, which of course includes the establishment: religion, patriotism, the military, marriage, the family, the rich, capitalism, morality, the paintings of Norman Rockwell, and so forth. Being a conservative, I hold the opposite views. But these people are necessary if change is ever to be made. Nothing would change if we conservatives were always in power. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 10:55:39 Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? Hi CowBoy, On 07 Nov 2012, at 15:55, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: As I read it, the ?ermensch is the being that is aware of the limits of Mensch ideology and values. Of course this can be hijacked to support discrimination against groups, but only if you want to be dishonest. But he emphasizes that abandoning the humanist conception of values is only a destruction insofar as it is paired with the sovereign power of affirmation and the ability, to reach a place, where we can say yes to the world, without guilt or dishonesty in conscience. To Zarathustra, negation has come to dominate human thought, it has become constitutive of human self-image: with this human, the whole world sinks and sickens, the whole of life is depreciated, everything known slides into its own nothingness. Zarathustra says Yes and Amen in a tremendous and unbounded way (see Chapter six of Thus spoke Zarathustra, if you're interested) and so does the ?ermensch. This paints for me joyful agnostic with human entity questioned as ontological primitive. And again, Zarathustra makes fun of the followers that take him seriously. But I don't want to sell Nietzsche here as he wouldn't want to be sold; just to point out that the revaluation of all values and your unease, as they appear framed to me here, are not warranted by anything I've read. All right. You convince me. I might need to reread him. I was very young when reading it, and I was still living some WAR II consequences (I am born in Germany). A joyful agnostic is certainly better than a fundamentalist atheist, sure. Bruno On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Nov 2012, at 17:45, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: Hi Roger, If you want to read him that trivially, go ahead. The constant, eternal revaluation of all values. This is just implied by asking what's going on?. And yes, this is gently consistent with never ending platonic questioning + a popper style negation, even humor, on his own statements, that they are wrong, that they not be overly concretized. Nietzsche never taught his own ideas, although he was active academically very early. If you'd open a single page, you'd see how conflicted he was about the transmission of fruits of introspection. But I wouldn't want to offend you with any of that, or that I think he anticipated the computer + its consequences more than once, as you already have made up your mind in a rather discriminatory fashion without reading the man/machine in his native language, so... I am not merely a platonist: also guitar cowboy and dance and jam in every realm I can and keep my platonism in check with my sense of groove and swing + good steak, now and then. I have a taste for the Dionysian joys, for colors, and richness, variety as much as I love Platonia. But Platonia, in this abstract technical sense you imply, is pretty joyless and dull. Nietzsche is good antidote for that. On Kant he mused once: What kind of a soul must build such an unassailable fortress of thought? What is it distracting itself from, building these labyrinths of descriptive power for a group of disciples it will never admit to itself, that it vainly
Re: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy The far right and the far left have many things in common. Or similar. The occupy folks are essentially anarchists, while we conservatives, although not wanting to do away with govt entirely, prefer to keep it small and less over-bearing. And although adding another kind of dope to the market doesn't seem like a good idea to me, just because I know of what an addiction can do to you (technically speakling, I am a recovering alcoholic) pragmatically speaking, the legalization of pot makes sense. I think Paraguay has or will legislate that the government sell the pot to improve its budget. It would help california's bottom line. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 11:57:09 Subject: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? Hi Roger, You make me smile, without sarcasm. Usually he is accused of being too right in asserting will to power and his views on slave morality are usually used to justify this. If you do read him, note that his bombastic style, physical and naturalist metaphors and claims are where his insecurities reside: he doesn't hide this. Genealogy of Morals is sub-titled a Polemic, after all. He likes to stir things up. But once you get passed this unease, you'll just find another wrong lover of love, with an astonishing ability to dream and predict our chaos. But thank god the conservatives are NOT in power now: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/07/colorado-washington-pot-legalization-_n_2086023.html Good news for Nietzsche and Dionysian affirmation, this. :) Cowboy On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Cowboy, Without meaning to make any judgement, or mean any insult, sociologically Nietzsche is representative of the far left. Those people used to puzzle me (I am a conservative) since they were essentially hostile to all authority, which of course includes the establishment: religion, patriotism, the military, marriage, the family, the rich, capitalism, morality, the paintings of Norman Rockwell, and so forth. Being a conservative, I hold the opposite views. But these people are necessary if change is ever to be made. Nothing would change if we conservatives were always in power. ?oger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 10:55:39 Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? Hi CowBoy, On 07 Nov 2012, at 15:55, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: As I read it, the ?ermensch is the being that is aware of the limits of Mensch ideology and values. Of course this can be hijacked to support discrimination against groups, but only if you want to be dishonest. But he emphasizes that abandoning the humanist conception of values is only a destruction insofar as it is paired with the sovereign power of affirmation and the ability, to reach a place, where we can say yes to the world, without guilt or dishonesty in conscience. To Zarathustra, negation has come to dominate human thought, it has become constitutive of human self-image: with this human, the whole world sinks and sickens, the whole of life is depreciated, everything known slides into its own nothingness. Zarathustra says Yes and Amen in a tremendous and unbounded way (see Chapter six of Thus spoke Zarathustra, if you're interested) and so does the ?ermensch. This paints for me joyful agnostic with human entity questioned as ontological primitive. And again, Zarathustra makes fun of the followers that take him seriously. But I don't want to sell Nietzsche here as he wouldn't want to be sold; just to point out that the revaluation of all values and your unease, as they appear framed to me here, are not warranted by anything I've read. All right. You convince me. I might need to reread him. I was very young when reading it, and I was still living some WAR II consequences (I am born in Germany). A joyful agnostic is certainly better than a fundamentalist atheist, sure. Bruno On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Bruno Marchal ?rote: On 06 Nov 2012, at 17:45, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: Hi Roger, If you want to read him that trivially, go ahead. The constant, eternal revaluation of all values. This is just implied by asking what's going on?. And yes, this is gently consistent with never ending platonic questioning + a popper style negation, even humor, on his own statements, that they are wrong, that they not be overly concretized. Nietzsche never taught his own ideas, although he was active academically very early. If you'd open a single page, you'd see how conflicted he was about
Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?
Hi Bruno Marchal A later Lutheran by the name of Kierkegaard said that God, being infinite, is an absurdity to finite man's brain. Being an absurdity, reason cannot apprehend God. K said instead that God can only be experienced subjectively, and that that experience of God was simply one of trust, as a child trusts its parents, its mother especially. Lutherans call that trust faith. This lead K to conclude (and I agree) that truth is subjective (1p). Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 12:17:50 Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? On 07 Nov 2012, at 15:44, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I feel exactly as you do. I would never have Nietzsche's books burned, there is much of value in them. Or at least some value. His criticism of reason's being used by Christianity, for example, parallels to an appreciable extent Luther's criticism of the Catholic church, three centuries previously, which held reason and action over faith (Luther held faith over everything). That was the breaking point for the Reformation. Luther in fact said that Reason is the Devil's whore. He later softened that view but just a little. It is a difficult subject, as the aristotelian conception of platonism is different from a platonist conception of platonism. Through Augustin we can only say that a *part* of Platonism has gone through, in christianism, but usually it concerns the mystics teaching, which is usually ignored when lived and recuperate and distorted after. The same with Judaism and Islam, although later, whose mainstream will fall in the aristotelian metaphysical trap, with exception, again among the mystics, or the occultists (Sufi, Cabbala). And it is hard to separate the occultism and secrecy due to oppression, from the literal misunderstanding leading to the superstitions, all this in complex historical evolution. The idea that reason is the Devil is a constant in all religion which lack faith in God, as if you needed to lie or to hide anything to protect God! There is no conflict between reason and faith, as truth extends reason. In practice we are often wrong so this needs an ability to revise opinions, and changing one's mind, even if it is harder on the fundamentals. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 05:39:11 Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? On 06 Nov 2012, at 17:45, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: Hi Roger, If you want to read him that trivially, go ahead. The constant, eternal revaluation of all values. This is just implied by asking what's going on?. And yes, this is gently consistent with never ending platonic questioning + a popper style negation, even humor, on his own statements, that they are wrong, that they not be overly concretized. Nietzsche never taught his own ideas, although he was active academically very early. If you'd open a single page, you'd see how conflicted he was about the transmission of fruits of introspection. But I wouldn't want to offend you with any of that, or that I think he anticipated the computer + its consequences more than once, as you already have made up your mind in a rather discriminatory fashion without reading the man/machine in his native language, so... I am not merely a platonist: also guitar cowboy and dance and jam in every realm I can and keep my platonism in check with my sense of groove and swing + good steak, now and then. I have a taste for the Dionysian joys, for colors, and richness, variety as much as I love Platonia. But Platonia, in this abstract technical sense you imply, is pretty joyless and dull. Nietzsche is good antidote for that. On Kant he mused once: What kind of a soul must build such an unassailable fortress of thought? What is it distracting itself from, building these labyrinths of descriptive power for a group of disciples it will never admit to itself, that it vainly wants to have? For why else build such fortresses? For these reason I'd suggest for you to not read him, especially not in German. Right on with garbage he taught, would be the first thing he'd admit and laugh. It does look we agree that Nietzsche was a poet with a deep talent. I read Also Sprach Zarathustra, in german and in french, and I love it, but, later, rereading it, I got a feeling of uneasiness. I got it also with many people idolatring Nietzche, or taking granted what he said, I dunno. It might be, correct me if I am wrong, a sort of remanent atheism in the work, or perhaps it is, like with art
Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy By poet, I suspect that Bruno was attesting to Nietzsche's ability to think in terms of metaphors (such as Apollo and Dionysius in his Genealogy of Morals. ) Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/6/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 07:48:01 Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Nov 2012, at 13:43, Roger Clough wrote: Shades of Nietzsche ! Tell me it isn't so ! No, it is not so. No worry to have. I am glad we share some uneasiness with Nietzche. I take it for a great poet, but a bad philosopher. ? Then your German is better than mine, as a native speaker. Having enough distance and humor for one's own statements doesn't come through much in the translations. I don't think he ever took himself seriously as a philosopher, and he often pokes subtly fun at the notion. Ok, I'll get back to the herd then :) Cowboy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy So what ? I have no stomach for the revaluation of all values and the other garbage Nietzsche taught. If you are truly a platonist, you would agree with me. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/6/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 10:35:15 Subject: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? Hi Roger, So what? On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy By poet, I suspect that Bruno was attesting to Nietzsche's ability to think in terms of metaphors (such as Apollo and Dionysius in his Genealogy of Morals. ) Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/6/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 07:48:01 Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Bruno Marchal ?rote: On 05 Nov 2012, at 13:43, Roger Clough wrote: Shades of Nietzsche ! Tell me it isn't so ! No, it is not so. No worry to have. I am glad we share some uneasiness with Nietzche. I take it for a great poet, but a bad philosopher. ? Then your German is better than mine, as a native speaker. Having enough distance and humor for one's own statements doesn't come through much in the translations. I don't think he ever took himself seriously as a philosopher, and he often pokes subtly fun at the notion. Ok, I'll get back to the herd then :) Cowboy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?
Hi Roger, If you want to read him that trivially, go ahead. The constant, eternal revaluation of all values. This is just implied by asking what's going on?. And yes, this is gently consistent with never ending platonic questioning + a popper style negation, even humor, on his own statements, that they are wrong, that they not be overly concretized. Nietzsche never taught his own ideas, although he was active academically very early. If you'd open a single page, you'd see how conflicted he was about the transmission of fruits of introspection. But I wouldn't want to offend you with any of that, or that I think he anticipated the computer + its consequences more than once, as you already have made up your mind in a rather discriminatory fashion without reading the man/machine in his native language, so... I am not merely a platonist: also guitar cowboy and dance and jam in every realm I can and keep my platonism in check with my sense of groove and swing + good steak, now and then. I have a taste for the Dionysian joys, for colors, and richness, variety as much as I love Platonia. But Platonia, in this abstract technical sense you imply, is pretty joyless and dull. Nietzsche is good antidote for that. On Kant he mused once: What kind of a soul must build such an unassailable fortress of thought? What is it distracting itself from, building these labyrinths of descriptive power for a group of disciples it will never admit to itself, that it vainly wants to have? For why else build such fortresses? For these reason I'd suggest for you to not read him, especially not in German. Right on with garbage he taught, would be the first thing he'd admit and laugh. PGC On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy So what ? I have no stomach for the revaluation of all values and the other garbage Nietzsche taught. If you are truly a platonist, you would agree with me. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/6/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 10:35:15 Subject: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? Hi Roger, So what? On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy By poet, I suspect that Bruno was attesting to Nietzsche's ability to think in terms of metaphors (such as Apollo and Dionysius in his Genealogy of Morals. ) Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/6/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 07:48:01 Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Bruno Marchal ?rote: On 05 Nov 2012, at 13:43, Roger Clough wrote: Shades of Nietzsche ! Tell me it isn't so ! No, it is not so. No worry to have. I am glad we share some uneasiness with Nietzche. I take it for a great poet, but a bad philosopher. ? Then your German is better than mine, as a native speaker. Having enough distance and humor for one's own statements doesn't come through much in the translations. I don't think he ever took himself seriously as a philosopher, and he often pokes subtly fun at the notion. Ok, I'll get back to the herd then :) Cowboy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed
Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?
Hi Stephen P. King That might be what I think Bruno referred to as 6 sigma truth, namely truth that has a probability within std dev of 6 sigma of being true. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-05, 09:08:03 Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? On 11/5/2012 7:43 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal OK, you say propositions might have a contradiction but you might not yet have found the contradictions. That's a profound point. In other words, one can't ever be sure if a proposition is necessarily true, because, as Woody Allen says, forever is a long time. And the variety and number of possible copntradictions is possibly vast. Shades of Nietzsche ! Tell me it isn't so ! I guess that's the same as saying that you can never be sure of contingency either. I need to lie down for a while. This is beginning to look like existentialism. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen Hi Roger, Great question! If we are allowed to take forever to pay back a debt, then we have an effective free lunch! What you are thinking about with the concept of propositions might have a contradiction but you might not yet have found the contradictions is what is known as omega-inconsistent logical systems. ;-) Theories that are consistent right up until they produce a statement that is not consistent. By the way, the usual rules of logical inference in math assumes that truth theories are never inconsistent. What about theories that are only 'almost' never inconsistent? This might help us think about the shade of Nietzche a bit more. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
