Hi Russell Standish and Bruno, Nobody else gets
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/13/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Russell Standish Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-12, 19:37:37 Subject: Re: Re: The sin of NDAA He means copies. I get two copies from you too. On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 08:48:27AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Bruno Marchal > > > mail exemplars ? what are they ? > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > 9/12/2012 > Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him > so that everything could function." > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Bruno Marchal > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-09-12, 06:37:18 > Subject: Re: The sin of NDAA > > > > > On 12 Sep 2012, at 12:16, Roger Clough wrote: > > > Hi Bruno Marchal > > Amen. > > > What do you mean? If you can reassure me on Obama, or have some link to that > purpose, I would be delighted, but as Russell suggests, it might be > out-of-topic on this list, and there are already many posts. > > > BTW I get most of your posts in two exemplars. Am I the only one? You might > need to relaunch your mail application, perhaps. > > > Bruno > > > > > > > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > 9/12/2012 > Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him > so that everything could function." > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Bruno Marchal > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-09-11, 12:58:10 > Subject: Re: The sin of NDAA > > > > > On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:20, Roger Clough wrote: > > > Hi Bruno Marchal > > It is ironic that Obama followed Bush policy economically (more spending) > and also much like Bush in warfare, although a bit more timidly. > > > Timidly? I read that Obama used more drones than anyone before, and, well I > am not sure, I think he beats Bush in all directions. > > > I have been very much disappointed by him. By signing the NDAA bill, vetoing > all suggested precautions of language, counter-signing it by a promise of > never using it (sic), (and btw violating his promise to never countersign > such bill), violatig his promise on health politics, ... he gives me the > chill. > > > The human rights, by definition, applies to *all* humans. You cannot create a > fuzzy class (suspect of threat) and decide that they have no human rights. > Only dictatorships do that. > > > It is a bit of a mystery. In one night, Obama has put on the war on terror a > look very similar to the war on drugs. > I knew the war on drugs is only fear selling business since long, but I was > still naive on the "war on terror". > I can't help myself to doubt about the 9/11 now. > > > Obama try do legalize at home indefinitely what we could still hope to be > war-exceptional under Bush. > In Europa the media makes the headline with the monstrosity of Bush, and the > same media remains mute on the fact that Obama attempted to implement legally > (!) those monstrosity at home (the 31 december 2011). > > > The supreme court has judged the note anti-constitutional, so some hope > remains, but for how long? > > > Bruno > > > > > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > 9/11/2012 > Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him > so that everything could function." > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Bruno Marchal > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-09-10, 10:55:34 > Subject: Re: The sin of NDAA > > > > > On 09 Sep 2012, at 13:08, Roger Clough wrote: > > > Hi Bruno Marchal > > My feeling at the moment is to compare the sin of NDAA with > that of collateral damage, and war itself, and fall back on the > doctrine of just warfare. > > > I would have still be open to that idea one year ago. But Obama did not kept > his promise to decriminalize pot, to not let the feds interfere with the > state on this, to at least try to refrain the war on drug, and to finish the > war on terror. > > > Not only Obama did not do that, but he has tried, through the NDAA, to make > into an indefinite law what Bush succeeds to justify as warfare. > > > I could have thought it was just a typo mistake, but Obama's administration > has refuse any change to the language in the NDAA(*). > > > So, it looks to me more as the events leading to the third reich in Germany, > where the worst get power through democracy. > > > Obama has convinced me in one night that the war on terror is as fake as the > war on drugs. Now I think it is just the usual fear selling business, and > they are planning the catastrophes selling. > > > Although I have mocked the idea that 9/11 is an inside job, despite building > seven, I dod not expect Obama signing a text which contains the usual > dictator trick, which consists in abandoning the human right for a fuzzy > category of the population, and allowing the military to overturn the laws > and the constitution, and this after the war. > > > That is not the "sin of collateral damage", that is the sin of terrorism, > simply. Obama could have said more simply that the terrorist have won. > Al Qaeda looks more and more like a CIA construct, as frightening that might > seem. > > > The human right have to be applied to every one, or they are no more human > rights. If suspects of whatever have no more rights, you are no more living > in a democracy but in a tyranny. > > > If the media were able to do their job, Obama would already be detained in a > jail for attempt of coup d'etat. > > > I have supported him, but I do think now that both the republicans and > democrats have just zero power, and are the puppets of international mafia. 5 > years of alcohol prohibition has given Al Capone, and I'm afraid we are > seeing the result of 75 years of prohibition of cannabis. It was a Trojan > Horse for the international criminality and terrorism. > > > I am less terrorized by bombs than by laws allowing detention without trial > for people being only suspected. > > > If you abandon an atom of liberty for an atom of security, you lose both. > > > Bruno > > > > > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > 9/9/2012 > Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him > so that everything could function." > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Bruno Marchal > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-09-08, 14:16:31 > Subject: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ? > > > On 08 Sep 2012, at 15:33, Roger Clough wrote: > > > Hi Bruno Marchal > > > > OK, I see, you think I judge the abilities of people > > by the color of their skin. So you call me a racist. > > > I was thinking only you might judge someone by the constitution of its > body. > > You don't answer the question: "can your daughter marry a man which > body is 100% machine?" > > > > > > You might be a liberal, because ironically and > > paradoxically they see the world in terms of race. > > Conservatives attempt to live by facts. I never > > saw racism in what what I wrote until you brought > > the subject up. > > > > I don't mean to offend you with this talk of politics. > > Conservatives are not perfect either. > > Sure. I tend to be rather conservative, in principle. > > I think that today the liberal/conservative division makes no sense. > The division is more bastards/ victim of bastards, like Romney and > Obama against Ron Paul, Gary Johnson or Norman Solomon, or those who > understand that the human rights apply to everybody and those who does > not, or between the fear sellers and the constitutionalists. > > The republicans betrayed themselves by not attacking Obama on the NDAA > notes. Thanks to the existence of a many years long drug and food > prohibition I am hardly astonished. > > As long as prohibition continue, there are no politics, only well- > disguised form of mafias, which are succeeding to get the whole > financial system into hostage. The individual human is in danger. > > Bruno > > > > > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > > 9/8/2012 > > Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him > > so that everything could function." > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > > From: Bruno Marchal > > Receiver: everything-list > > Time: 2012-09-08, 04:46:38 > > Subject: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ? > > > > > > > > > > On 07 Sep 2012, at 15:00, Roger Clough wrote: > > > > > > Hi Bruno Marchal > > > > Racism ? How's that implied ? > > > > > > Do you accept that your daughter marry a man who has undergone an > > artificial brain transplant? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I do agree that perception and Cs are > > not understandable with materialistic concepts > > at least as they are commonly used. > > Instead they are what the mind can sense, > > > > > > OK. > > > > > > > > > > as a sixth sense. > > > > > > Hmm... > > > > > > > > > > > > The mind is similar to driving a car through > > Platoville and watching the static events > > in passing. > > > > > > OK. > > > > > > Bruno > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > > 9/7/2012 > > Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him > > so that everything could function." > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > > From: Bruno Marchal > > Receiver: everything-list > > Time: 2012-09-06, 14:12:37 > > Subject: Re: Sane2004 Step One > > > > > > > > > > On 05 Sep 2012, at 18:12, Roger Clough wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't think that life or mind or intelligence > > can be teleported. Especially since nobody knows what > > they are. > > > > I also don't believe that you can download > > the contents of somebody's brain. > > > > > > > > > > This is just restating that you don't believe in comp. > > > > > > OK, develop your theory, and predict something testable, and we will > > better understand what you mean. > > If not it looks just like a form of racism based on magic. > > > > > > Bruno > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > > 9/5/2012 > > Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him > > so that everything could function." > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > > From: Bruno Marchal > > Receiver: everything-list > > Time: 2012-09-05, 11:04:53 > > Subject: Re: Sane2004 Step One > > > > > > On 05 Sep 2012, at 06:14, meekerdb wrote: > > > >> On 9/4/2012 7:19 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > >>> On Tue, Sep 04, 2012 at 06:48:58PM -0700, Craig Weinberg wrote: > >>>> I have problems with all three of the comp assumptions: > >>>> > >>>> *yes, doctor*: This is really the sleight of hand that props up > >>>> the entire > >>>> thought experiment. If you agree that you are nothing but your > >>>> brain > >>>> function and that your brain function can be replaced by the > >>>> functioning of > >>>> non-brain devices, then you have already agreed that human > >>>> individuality is > >>>> a universal commodity. > >>> Calling it a sleight of hand is a bit rough. It is the meat of the > >>> comp assumption, and spelling it out this way makes it very > >>> explicit. Either you agree you can be copied (without feeling a > >>> thing), or you don't. If you do, you must face up to the > >>> consequences > >>> of the argument, if you don't, then you do not accept > >>> computationalism, and the consequences of the UDA do not apply to > >>> your > >>> worldview. > >> > >> I suppose I can be copied. But does it follow that I am just the > >> computations in my brain. It seems likely that I also require an > >> outside environment/world with which I interact in order to remain > >> conscious. Bruno passes this off by saying it's just a matter of > >> the level of substitution, perhaps your local environment or even > >> the whole galaxy must be replaced by a digital representation in > >> order to maintain your consciousness unchanged. But this bothers > >> me. Suppose it is the whole galaxy, or the whole observed > >> universe. Does it really mean anything then to say your brain has > >> been replaced ALONG WITH EVERYTHING ELSE? It's just the assertion > >> that everything is computable. > > > > That's a good argument for saying that the level of substitution is > > not that low. But the reasoning would still go through, and we would > > lead to a unique computable universe. That is the only way to make a > > digital physics consistent (as I forget to say sometimes). Then you > > get a more complex "other mind problem", and something like David > > Nyman- Hoyle beam would be needed, and would need to be separate from > > the physical reality, making the big physical whole incomplete, etc. > > yes this bothers me too. Needless to say, I tend to believe that if > > comp is true, the level is much higher. > > > > > > > >> > >>> > >>>> *Church thesis*: Views computation in isolation, irrespective of > >>>> resources, > >>>> supervenience on object-formed computing elements, etc. This is a > >>>> theoretical theory of computation, completely divorced from > >>>> realism from > >>>> the start. What is it that does the computing? How and why does > >>>> data enter > >>>> or exit a computation? > >>> It is necessarily an abstract mathematical thesis. The latter two > >>> questions simply are relevant. > >>> > >>>> *Arithmetical Realism*: The idea that truth values are self > >>>> justifying > >>>> independently of subjectivity or physics is literally a shot in > >>>> the dark. > >>>> Like yes, doctor, this is really swallowing the cow whole from the > >>>> beginning and saying that the internal consistency of arithmetic > >>>> constitutes universal supremacy without any real indication of > >>>> that. > >>> AR is not just about internal consistency of mathematics, it is an > >>> ontological commitment about the natural numbers. Whatever primitive > >>> reality is, AR implies that the primitive reality models the natural > >>> numbers. > >> > >> ISTM that Bruno rejects any reality behind the natural numbers (or > >> other system of computation). If often argues that the natural > >> numbers exist, because they satisfy true propositions: There exists > >> a prime number between 1 and 3, therefore 2 exists. This assumes a > >> Platonist view of mathematical objects, which Peter D. Jones has > >> argued against. > > > > ? I would say that the contrary is true. It is because natural numbers > > exists, and seems to obeys laws like addition and multiplication that > > true propositions can be made on them. 2 exists, and only 1 and 2 > > divides 2, so 2 is prime, and thus prime numbers exists. 2 itself > > exists just because Ex(x = s(s(0))) is true. Indeed take x = s(s(0)), > > and the proposition follows from s(s(0)) = s(s(0)). > > > > Bruno > > > > > > > >> > >> Brent > >> > >>> > >>> In fact, for COMP, and the UDA, Turing completeness of primitive > >>> reality is > >>> sufficient, but Bruno chose the natural numbers as his base reality > >>> because it is more familiar to his correspondents. > >>> > >>>> Wouldn't computers tend to be self-correcting by virtue of the > >>>> pull toward > >>>> arithmetic truth within each logic circuit? Where do errors come > >>>> from? > >>>> > >>> Again, these two questions seem irrelevant. > >>> > >>>> Craig > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. > >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit > >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/Pc173EEJR4IJ > >>>> . > >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com > >>>> . > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > >>>> . > >>>> For more options, visit this group at > >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > >>>> . > >>>> > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> Groups "Everything List" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to everything- > >> l...@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > >> . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > >> . > >> > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Everything List" group. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > > . > > > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Everything List" group. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > > . > > > > > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Everything List" group. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > > . > > > > > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Everything List" group. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > > . > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message 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> -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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