Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
Danny, The depressed people are the sane ones. My post is merely 'existential angst' caused by knowledge of the world and myself as I really am.With knowledge comes unhappiness and happiness is the happiness of ignorance. Ever read the short story of 'Green Magic'? That story is available on-line: http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/green.htm I am like 'Howard Fair' and I suffered the same fate in the story that he did. --- Where do you go? Fair asked in wonder and longing. May I go with you? The sprite, swirling a drape of bright green dust over its shoulders, shook his head. You would be less than comfortable. Other men have explored the worlds of magic! True: your uncle Gerald McIntyre, for instance. My uncle Gerald learned green magic? To the limit of his capabilities. He found no pleasure in his learning. You would do well to profit by his experience and modify your ambitions. The sprite turned and walked away. Jaadian assented. You have not accepted my advice. Fair shrugged. You asked me to remain ignorant, to accept my stupidity and ineptitude. And why should you not? asked Jaadian gently. You are a primitive in a primitive realm; nevertheless not one man in a thousand can match your achievements. Fair agreed, smiling faintly. But knowledge creates a craving for further knowledge. Where is the harm in knowledge? By stages so gradual he never realized them he learned green magic. But the new faculty gave him no pride: between his crude ineptitudes and the poetic elegance of the sprites remained a tremendous gap, and he felt his innate inferiority much more keenly than he ever had in his old state. Worse, his most earnest efforts failed to improve his technique, and sometimes, observing the singing joy of an improvised manifestation by one of the sprites, and contrasting it to his own labored constructions, he felt futility and shame. In one terrible bittersweet spasm, he gave up. He found Jaadian weaving tinkling fragments of various magics into a warp of shining long splines. With grave courtesy, Jaadian gave Fair his attention, and Fair laboriously set forth his meaning. Jaadian returned a message. I recognize your discomfort, and extend my sympathy. It is best that you now return to your native home. - Howard Fair sat in his apartment. His perceptions, augmented and sharpened by his sojourn in the green realm, took note of the surroundings. Only two hours before, by the clocks of Earth, he had found them both restful and stimulating; now they were neither. His books: superstition, spuriousness, earnest nonsense. His private journals and workbooks: a pathetic scrawl of infantilisms. Gravity tugged at his feet, held him rigid. The shoddy construction of the house, which heretofore he never had noticed, oppressed him. Everywhere he looked he saw slipshod disorder, primitive filth. The thought of the food he must now eat revolted him. ... Sometimes I wish I could abandon all my magic and return to my former innocence. I have toyed with the idea, McIntyre replied thoughtfully. In fact I have made all the necessary arrangements. It is really a simple matter. He led Fair to a small room behind the station. Although the door was open, the interior showed a thick darkness. McIntyre, standing well back, surveyed the darkness with a quizzical curl to his lip. You need only enter. All your magic, all your recollections of the green realm will depart. You will be no wiser than the next man you meet. And with your knowledge will go your boredom, your melancholy, your dissatisfaction. Fair contemplated the dark doorway. A single step would resolve his discomfort. He glanced at McIntyre; the two surveyed each other with sardonic amusement. They returned to the front of the building. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
On Oct 26, 8:30 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ever read the short story of 'Green Magic'? No I hadn't, but thanks for the link, marc - it's a neat little tale, delightfully told. I'm tempted to try a little more of Jack Vance after this - any suggestions? David On Oct 26, 8:30 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Danny, The depressed people are the sane ones. My post is merely 'existential angst' caused by knowledge of the world and myself as I really am.With knowledge comes unhappiness and happiness is the happiness of ignorance. Ever read the short story of 'Green Magic'? That story is available on-line:http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/green.htm I am like 'Howard Fair' and I suffered the same fate in the story that he did. --- Where do you go? Fair asked in wonder and longing. May I go with you? The sprite, swirling a drape of bright green dust over its shoulders, shook his head. You would be less than comfortable. Other men have explored the worlds of magic! True: your uncle Gerald McIntyre, for instance. My uncle Gerald learned green magic? To the limit of his capabilities. He found no pleasure in his learning. You would do well to profit by his experience and modify your ambitions. The sprite turned and walked away. Jaadian assented. You have not accepted my advice. Fair shrugged. You asked me to remain ignorant, to accept my stupidity and ineptitude. And why should you not? asked Jaadian gently. You are a primitive in a primitive realm; nevertheless not one man in a thousand can match your achievements. Fair agreed, smiling faintly. But knowledge creates a craving for further knowledge. Where is the harm in knowledge? By stages so gradual he never realized them he learned green magic. But the new faculty gave him no pride: between his crude ineptitudes and the poetic elegance of the sprites remained a tremendous gap, and he felt his innate inferiority much more keenly than he ever had in his old state. Worse, his most earnest efforts failed to improve his technique, and sometimes, observing the singing joy of an improvised manifestation by one of the sprites, and contrasting it to his own labored constructions, he felt futility and shame. In one terrible bittersweet spasm, he gave up. He found Jaadian weaving tinkling fragments of various magics into a warp of shining long splines. With grave courtesy, Jaadian gave Fair his attention, and Fair laboriously set forth his meaning. Jaadian returned a message. I recognize your discomfort, and extend my sympathy. It is best that you now return to your native home. - Howard Fair sat in his apartment. His perceptions, augmented and sharpened by his sojourn in the green realm, took note of the surroundings. Only two hours before, by the clocks of Earth, he had found them both restful and stimulating; now they were neither. His books: superstition, spuriousness, earnest nonsense. His private journals and workbooks: a pathetic scrawl of infantilisms. Gravity tugged at his feet, held him rigid. The shoddy construction of the house, which heretofore he never had noticed, oppressed him. Everywhere he looked he saw slipshod disorder, primitive filth. The thought of the food he must now eat revolted him. ... Sometimes I wish I could abandon all my magic and return to my former innocence. I have toyed with the idea, McIntyre replied thoughtfully. In fact I have made all the necessary arrangements. It is really a simple matter. He led Fair to a small room behind the station. Although the door was open, the interior showed a thick darkness. McIntyre, standing well back, surveyed the darkness with a quizzical curl to his lip. You need only enter. All your magic, all your recollections of the green realm will depart. You will be no wiser than the next man you meet. And with your knowledge will go your boredom, your melancholy, your dissatisfaction. Fair contemplated the dark doorway. A single step would resolve his discomfort. He glanced at McIntyre; the two surveyed each other with sardonic amusement. They returned to the front of the building. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 07:30:30AM -, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Danny, The depressed people are the sane ones. My post is merely 'existential angst' caused by knowledge of the world and myself as I really am.With knowledge comes unhappiness and happiness is the happiness of ignorance. I don't think it has to be that way at all. What people seem to find depressing in all of this, and go running to the gods of their parents to get away from, I tend to find fascinating. Is this the same story as Zaphod Beeblebrox and the Total Perspective Vortex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Perspective_Vortex)? Cheers -- A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Mathematics UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Australiahttp://www.hpcoders.com.au --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
Le 20-oct.-07, à 18:06, David Nyman a écrit : On Oct 19, 2:26 pm, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David, do you mind if I send next week your solution (which were correct) of the exercises I gave online once to the list? I am sure it could help some other. All that is needed to get Church's thesis eventually right. Recall that Church thesis is one half of COMP. Just saw this. Sure, no problem. Thanks. So I will answer the question below asap. I have a bit more time next week, so I think I will able to do it soon, For the other I recall that a good understanding of Cantor diagonalization (the point of those exercises) is needed to, not only grasp Church thesis (which is 1/2 of comp), but to grasp the impact of Church thesis in the science in general. Thanks again for your patience, Bruno On Oct 16, 11:37 pm, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it is ''a'-rtificial' I question the 'natural one' (following Bruno's fear of the (natural?) 'super stupidity'.) Yet I don't think Marc wants to let himself denature into an artifact. Not necessarily, but look at Saibal's recent answer! This raises a question for Mark. What if the future SAI, SI should we say, are computationalist? Marc, is it ok if those SI reincarnate you digitally? Could they decide without your consent (without being super-stupid?). Your points are well taken Bruno. We should be highly suspicious of any 'authority' that thinks to act without our consent. As for cryonics, Saibal , I think it's a good option. If necessary, I'm quite prepared to put myself in the freezer - I have no intention of getting any older than a biological age of 65 - if I live that long I might be the first guy in the world to volunteer for a 'live freeze' (I would probably have to move to a country where there are laws allowing for assisted suicide though!) Again, not necessarily. Buddhism, unlike Christianity, has always been very aware that religious truth, once institutionalized get wrong ... To kill the buddha, or sompetimes just the master, is a way to remind the monk that they have to find the truth in themsleves and never to take any master talk for granted. In our (definition-wise) lower mentality it is not likely that we can 'kill' the smarter. So the condition involves the un-possibility, even if we are capable to recognise them - what we are not likely to be. Agreed. It was just a parabola for driving attention against any use of authoritative argument in the field of fundamentals. Ah! But the lobian machine too can be shown allergic to such argument. It's a universal dissident. Unforunately, humans, like dog are still attracted to the practical philosophy according to which the boss is right (especially when wrong!) Bruno PS Perhaps this week I will got the time to send the next post in the observer-moment = Sigma_1 sentence. Well, I'm pleased to hear the lobian machine is a 'universal dissident'. I wouldn't want to imply that 'the boss is right'. All I was implying was that (in the case of super-intelligence) the boss would be *stronger*. Whether the boss is right or not, we little guys wouldn't have much power so our negotiating power would be seriously limited initally. The best that could be hoped for from such a hypothetical 'social contract' in the beginning is that the SI doesn't hurt us. OK. You know I am confident that real SI would not hurt you, except by accident. The problem is that we cannot distinguished real SI from real SI, er I mean real super-intelligent (Sintel) from real super-idiot (Sidiot). I guess that is why democracy, when it is normally functioning, is the best of the system, allowing to change your mind about the people we are delegating power to.(by democracy I mean mainly here: education + repeated well organized election). Note that normally real SIntell will never present themselves as SIntell, only real Sidiot would do that. So, although, there does not exist a way to test Super intelligence , there are some cases where we can be almost sure to be in front of Super-stupidity ... Good week-end Marc, and All,(please revise the notion of bijection. Are everybody convinced that N is in bijection with N X N, and with N X N X N X N X... ? David, do you mind if I send next week your solution (which were correct) of the exercises I gave online once to the list? I am sure it could help some other. All that is needed to get Church's thesis eventually right. Recall that Church thesis is one half of COMP. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
Heh. Bruno, I continue to analyse my current (human) condition to try to find a way out of this mess (I'm not a happy bloke). Still considering many possibilities. Maybe I am misreading you here, but you sound pretty depressed. If so, don't just wait around hoping for things to get better, get help. I have been amazed at the results I have seen in people who simply get on the right meds. Or if meds aren't your thing, find somebody to talk to; get a therapist. It really can make a big difference. Again Marc, if you were just being a little dramatic my apologies, but I have had many clients who have been severely depressed and the worst thing is to do nothing and just hope it gets better. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 1:17 AM To: Everything List Subject: Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI On Oct 14, 3:39 am, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Take care, trust yourself and kill all the SAI on the road, to paraphrase a well known Buddhist idea. Either you are sufficiently clever to understand the SAI arguments, showing you are already an SAI yourself, and your message is without purpose, or you are not, in which case, to keep soundness (by lobianity), you better be skeptical, (and not to abide so quick imo). Unless you want to loose your universality, and be a slave, a tool. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ Heh. Bruno, I continue to analyse my current (human) condition to try to find a way out of this mess (I'm not a happy bloke). Still considering many possibilities. Given the possibility that super- intelligences do already (or will in the future) exist, there's a chance that a non-interference policy is being/will be pursued, but that there's a way to get their attention - it could be a simple matter of indicating that you are aware of the possibility and requesting to 'sign' a 'social contract'. Get in early now! ;) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
On Oct 19, 2:26 pm, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David, do you mind if I send next week your solution (which were correct) of the exercises I gave online once to the list? I am sure it could help some other. All that is needed to get Church's thesis eventually right. Recall that Church thesis is one half of COMP. Just saw this. Sure, no problem. David Le 17-oct.-07, à 08:16, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : On Oct 16, 11:37 pm, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it is ''a'-rtificial' I question the 'natural one' (following Bruno's fear of the (natural?) 'super stupidity'.) Yet I don't think Marc wants to let himself denature into an artifact. Not necessarily, but look at Saibal's recent answer! This raises a question for Mark. What if the future SAI, SI should we say, are computationalist? Marc, is it ok if those SI reincarnate you digitally? Could they decide without your consent (without being super-stupid?). Your points are well taken Bruno. We should be highly suspicious of any 'authority' that thinks to act without our consent. As for cryonics, Saibal , I think it's a good option. If necessary, I'm quite prepared to put myself in the freezer - I have no intention of getting any older than a biological age of 65 - if I live that long I might be the first guy in the world to volunteer for a 'live freeze' (I would probably have to move to a country where there are laws allowing for assisted suicide though!) Again, not necessarily. Buddhism, unlike Christianity, has always been very aware that religious truth, once institutionalized get wrong ... To kill the buddha, or sompetimes just the master, is a way to remind the monk that they have to find the truth in themsleves and never to take any master talk for granted. In our (definition-wise) lower mentality it is not likely that we can 'kill' the smarter. So the condition involves the un-possibility, even if we are capable to recognise them - what we are not likely to be. Agreed. It was just a parabola for driving attention against any use of authoritative argument in the field of fundamentals. Ah! But the lobian machine too can be shown allergic to such argument. It's a universal dissident. Unforunately, humans, like dog are still attracted to the practical philosophy according to which the boss is right (especially when wrong!) Bruno PS Perhaps this week I will got the time to send the next post in the observer-moment = Sigma_1 sentence. Well, I'm pleased to hear the lobian machine is a 'universal dissident'. I wouldn't want to imply that 'the boss is right'. All I was implying was that (in the case of super-intelligence) the boss would be *stronger*. Whether the boss is right or not, we little guys wouldn't have much power so our negotiating power would be seriously limited initally. The best that could be hoped for from such a hypothetical 'social contract' in the beginning is that the SI doesn't hurt us. OK. You know I am confident that real SI would not hurt you, except by accident. The problem is that we cannot distinguished real SI from real SI, er I mean real super-intelligent (Sintel) from real super-idiot (Sidiot). I guess that is why democracy, when it is normally functioning, is the best of the system, allowing to change your mind about the people we are delegating power to.(by democracy I mean mainly here: education + repeated well organized election). Note that normally real SIntell will never present themselves as SIntell, only real Sidiot would do that. So, although, there does not exist a way to test Super intelligence , there are some cases where we can be almost sure to be in front of Super-stupidity ... Good week-end Marc, and All,(please revise the notion of bijection. Are everybody convinced that N is in bijection with N X N, and with N X N X N X N X... ? David, do you mind if I send next week your solution (which were correct) of the exercises I gave online once to the list? I am sure it could help some other. All that is needed to get Church's thesis eventually right. Recall that Church thesis is one half of COMP. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
Le 17-oct.-07, à 08:16, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : On Oct 16, 11:37 pm, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it is ''a'-rtificial' I question the 'natural one' (following Bruno's fear of the (natural?) 'super stupidity'.) Yet I don't think Marc wants to let himself denature into an artifact. Not necessarily, but look at Saibal's recent answer! This raises a question for Mark. What if the future SAI, SI should we say, are computationalist? Marc, is it ok if those SI reincarnate you digitally? Could they decide without your consent (without being super-stupid?). Your points are well taken Bruno. We should be highly suspicious of any 'authority' that thinks to act without our consent. As for cryonics, Saibal , I think it's a good option. If necessary, I'm quite prepared to put myself in the freezer - I have no intention of getting any older than a biological age of 65 - if I live that long I might be the first guy in the world to volunteer for a 'live freeze' (I would probably have to move to a country where there are laws allowing for assisted suicide though!) Again, not necessarily. Buddhism, unlike Christianity, has always been very aware that religious truth, once institutionalized get wrong ... To kill the buddha, or sompetimes just the master, is a way to remind the monk that they have to find the truth in themsleves and never to take any master talk for granted. In our (definition-wise) lower mentality it is not likely that we can 'kill' the smarter. So the condition involves the un-possibility, even if we are capable to recognise them - what we are not likely to be. Agreed. It was just a parabola for driving attention against any use of authoritative argument in the field of fundamentals. Ah! But the lobian machine too can be shown allergic to such argument. It's a universal dissident. Unforunately, humans, like dog are still attracted to the practical philosophy according to which the boss is right (especially when wrong!) Bruno PS Perhaps this week I will got the time to send the next post in the observer-moment = Sigma_1 sentence. Well, I'm pleased to hear the lobian machine is a 'universal dissident'. I wouldn't want to imply that 'the boss is right'. All I was implying was that (in the case of super-intelligence) the boss would be *stronger*. Whether the boss is right or not, we little guys wouldn't have much power so our negotiating power would be seriously limited initally. The best that could be hoped for from such a hypothetical 'social contract' in the beginning is that the SI doesn't hurt us. OK. You know I am confident that real SI would not hurt you, except by accident. The problem is that we cannot distinguished real SI from real SI, er I mean real super-intelligent (Sintel) from real super-idiot (Sidiot). I guess that is why democracy, when it is normally functioning, is the best of the system, allowing to change your mind about the people we are delegating power to.(by democracy I mean mainly here: education + repeated well organized election). Note that normally real SIntell will never present themselves as SIntell, only real Sidiot would do that. So, although, there does not exist a way to test Super intelligence , there are some cases where we can be almost sure to be in front of Super-stupidity ... Good week-end Marc, and All,(please revise the notion of bijection. Are everybody convinced that N is in bijection with N X N, and with N X N X N X N X... ? David, do you mind if I send next week your solution (which were correct) of the exercises I gave online once to the list? I am sure it could help some other. All that is needed to get Church's thesis eventually right. Recall that Church thesis is one half of COMP. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
On Oct 16, 11:37 pm, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it is ''a'-rtificial' I question the 'natural one' (following Bruno's fear of the (natural?) 'super stupidity'.) Yet I don't think Marc wants to let himself denature into an artifact. Not necessarily, but look at Saibal's recent answer! This raises a question for Mark. What if the future SAI, SI should we say, are computationalist? Marc, is it ok if those SI reincarnate you digitally? Could they decide without your consent (without being super-stupid?). Your points are well taken Bruno. We should be highly suspicious of any 'authority' that thinks to act without our consent. As for cryonics, Saibal , I think it's a good option. If necessary, I'm quite prepared to put myself in the freezer - I have no intention of getting any older than a biological age of 65 - if I live that long I might be the first guy in the world to volunteer for a 'live freeze' (I would probably have to move to a country where there are laws allowing for assisted suicide though!) Again, not necessarily. Buddhism, unlike Christianity, has always been very aware that religious truth, once institutionalized get wrong ... To kill the buddha, or sompetimes just the master, is a way to remind the monk that they have to find the truth in themsleves and never to take any master talk for granted. In our (definition-wise) lower mentality it is not likely that we can 'kill' the smarter. So the condition involves the un-possibility, even if we are capable to recognise them - what we are not likely to be. Agreed. It was just a parabola for driving attention against any use of authoritative argument in the field of fundamentals. Ah! But the lobian machine too can be shown allergic to such argument. It's a universal dissident. Unforunately, humans, like dog are still attracted to the practical philosophy according to which the boss is right (especially when wrong!) Bruno PS Perhaps this week I will got the time to send the next post in the observer-moment = Sigma_1 sentence. Well, I'm pleased to hear the lobian machine is a 'universal dissident'. I wouldn't want to imply that 'the boss is right'. All I was implying was that (in the case of super-intelligence) the boss would be *stronger*. Whether the boss is right or not, we little guys wouldn't have much power so our negotiating power would be seriously limited initally. The best that could be hoped for from such a hypothetical 'social contract' in the beginning is that the SI doesn't hurt us. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
Le 15-oct.-07, à 20:51, John Mikes a écrit : Marc: excellent. Even Statis responded - although I cannot understand why he wrote they and not us? My problem is the A pertinent to SAI: s u p e r i n t e l l i g e n c e dores not contain an A. Well seen! If it is ''a'-rtificial' I question the 'natural one' (following Bruno's fear of the (natural?) 'super stupidity'.) Yet I don't think Marc wants to let himself denature into an artifact. Not necessarily, but look at Saibal's recent answer! This raises a question for Mark. What if the future SAI, SI should we say, are computationalist? Marc, is it ok if those SI reincarnate you digitally? Could they decide without your consent (without being super-stupid?). So: what is the A standing for? I have a solution to the ID of superintelligence, I got it in a malicious discussion group of peers when I denigrated the 'exceedingly wealthy' as getting inevitably demoralised, I was asked whom I consider 'exceedingly wealthy'? One chap quipped: whoever is wealthier then himself. So I can find lots of 'superintelligents' in these terms. it is not a contractual belonging-to it is a quality. Unidefinable. But: smarter than me. It is some 'koanic' wisdom of the Budhist to kill all superintelligent on the road. It requires considerable 'intelligence' (whatever that may be) to recognise the more-'so' on the road. Again, not necessarily. Buddhism, unlike Christianity, has always been very aware that religious truth, once institutionalized get wrong ... To kill the buddha, or sompetimes just the master, is a way to remind the monk that they have to find the truth in themsleves and never to take any master talk for granted. In our (definition-wise) lower mentality it is not likely that we can 'kill' the smarter. So the condition involves the un-possibility, even if we are capable to recognise them - what we are not likely to be. Agreed. It was just a parabola for driving attention against any use of authoritative argument in the field of fundamentals. Ah! But the lobian machine too can be shown allergic to such argument. It's a universal dissident. Unforunately, humans, like dog are still attracted to the practical philosophy according to which the boss is right (especially when wrong!) Bruno PS Perhaps this week I will got the time to send the next post in the observer-moment = Sigma_1 sentence. On 10/15/07, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le 15-oct.-07, à 07:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : On Oct 14, 3:39 am, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Take care, trust yourself and kill all the SAI on the road, to paraphrase a well known Buddhist idea. Either you are sufficiently clever to understand the SAI arguments, showing you are already an SAI yourself, and your message is without purpose, or you are not, in which case, to keep soundness (by lobianity), you better be skeptical, (and not to abide so quick imo). Unless you want to loose your universality, and be a slave, a tool. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ Heh. Bruno, I continue to analyse my current (human) condition to try to find a way out of this mess (I'm not a happy bloke). Still considering many possibilities. Given the possibility that super- intelligences do already (or will in the future) exist, there's a chance that a non-interference policy is being/will be pursued, but that there's a way to get their attention - it could be a simple matter of indicating that you are aware of the possibility and requesting to 'sign' a 'social contract'. Get in early now! ;) The price of the existence of intelligence, is the existence of stupidity. I am afraid that the price of super-intelligence is super-stupidity, and if you are not super-intelligent yourself, then you cannot be sure of making the difference, and you are taking the risk of alerting the super-idiots of the universe ... So be careful when writing the social contract. What do *you* intend to put in the contract? Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
Le 16-oct.-07, à 12:37, I said, in a post to John Mikes, Agreed. It was just a parabola for driving attention against any use of authoritative argument in the field of fundamentals. Ah! But the lobian machine too can be shown allergic to such argument. It's a universal dissident. Unforunately, humans, like dog are still attracted to the practical philosophy according to which the boss is right (especially when wrong!) Please remind I talk as a platonist, having the long run in mind. Obviously, (sadly I think), the boss is right theory has some selective, darwinian, advantage in the short run. The poor self-moving carnivore, before asking itself to be or not to be goes through some long to eat or to be eated, forcing it to take quick decisions in presence of partial information, and here the boss can help, a lot, indeed. A little like in an army where orders are usual and natural, or in conventional or typed programming with its well-behaved subroutines. It is not yet completely clear (arithmetical) why and if it has to be so locally everywhere, for the (sound) lobian machine or lobian entity (cf S4Grz). But the fundamentals have to be coherent with the long run, and so, in the limit at least, the lobian entity has to demolish, indeed, all authoritative arguments. An hard (transfinite) task. Marc, I am just telling you what the self-referentially platonist machine suggest: invoking some entity (being it machine, human, god, or whatever) as smarter is akin to give a name to something unameable. You can reason about it, but you cannot identify them with anything. All, Recall just PA is a less rich lobian machine that ZF, also a lobian machine. Less rich means less rich the in size of their set of arithmetical sentences they can prove, I mean ZF proves more arithmetical sentences than PA). Then, it is like if PA , after having proved correctly that ZF can prove the consistency of PA; concludes in its own consistency. True: ZF proves the consistency of PA. True: PA can proves that! i.e: PA can prove that ZF proves the consistency of PA.(even RA can prove that for those who reminds the weak RA) True: PA cannot deduce from that that PA is consistent. True: PA cannot prove its own consistency (consistency of PA) true: ZF cannot prove its own consistency . Hmmm unless ZF is inconsistent. I am 100% confident in the consistency (and even soundness) of PA. I am 99,9998 % confident in the consistency of ZF (and even less in absence of coffee I'm afraid) Bruno PS Perhaps this week I will got the time to send the next post in the observer-moment = Sigma_1 sentence. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
Saibal: good idea, provided that our concept of 'freezing' works on ALL aspects beyond the assumed 'physical world' contraption. We have the deficiency of thinking in our material system concepts - space-time-physical motion-conventional 'science' limitations, like freezing etc. and consider them as all. Do freezable neuron-connections identify e.g. the validity of a legal opinion? (to keep my peace here, I did not include or numbers in my question) John M On 10/15/07, Saibal Mitra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The best thing you could do is to freeze your brain. I think that will preserve the connections between the neurons, although the cells will be destroyed. This will make it easier for a future civilization to regenerate you digitally - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Everything List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 07:17 AM Subject: Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI On Oct 14, 3:39 am, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Take care, trust yourself and kill all the SAI on the road, to paraphrase a well known Buddhist idea. Either you are sufficiently clever to understand the SAI arguments, showing you are already an SAI yourself, and your message is without purpose, or you are not, in which case, to keep soundness (by lobianity), you better be skeptical, (and not to abide so quick imo). Unless you want to loose your universality, and be a slave, a tool. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ Heh. Bruno, I continue to analyse my current (human) condition to try to find a way out of this mess (I'm not a happy bloke). Still considering many possibilities. Given the possibility that super- intelligences do already (or will in the future) exist, there's a chance that a non-interference policy is being/will be pursued, but that there's a way to get their attention - it could be a simple matter of indicating that you are aware of the possibility and requesting to 'sign' a 'social contract'. Get in early now! ;) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
On 15/10/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heh. Bruno, I continue to analyse my current (human) condition to try to find a way out of this mess (I'm not a happy bloke). Still considering many possibilities. Given the possibility that super- intelligences do already (or will in the future) exist, there's a chance that a non-interference policy is being/will be pursued, but that there's a way to get their attention - it could be a simple matter of indicating that you are aware of the possibility and requesting to 'sign' a 'social contract'. Get in early now! ;) Although if they're so far beyond us that we can't detect them I think we have to assume that their motives and psychology are completely unknown: there is no reason to favour the theory that they would reveal themselves to someone acknowledging their existence rather than that they would ignore him or wipe him out prematurely. The same criticism applies to Robin Hanson's paper on how we should behave if we're in a simulation: http://www.transhumanist.com/volume7/simulation.html -- Stathis Papaioannou --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
Le 15-oct.-07, à 07:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : On Oct 14, 3:39 am, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Take care, trust yourself and kill all the SAI on the road, to paraphrase a well known Buddhist idea. Either you are sufficiently clever to understand the SAI arguments, showing you are already an SAI yourself, and your message is without purpose, or you are not, in which case, to keep soundness (by lobianity), you better be skeptical, (and not to abide so quick imo). Unless you want to loose your universality, and be a slave, a tool. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ Heh. Bruno, I continue to analyse my current (human) condition to try to find a way out of this mess (I'm not a happy bloke). Still considering many possibilities. Given the possibility that super- intelligences do already (or will in the future) exist, there's a chance that a non-interference policy is being/will be pursued, but that there's a way to get their attention - it could be a simple matter of indicating that you are aware of the possibility and requesting to 'sign' a 'social contract'. Get in early now! ;) The price of the existence of intelligence, is the existence of stupidity. I am afraid that the price of super-intelligence is super-stupidity, and if you are not super-intelligent yourself, then you cannot be sure of making the difference, and you are taking the risk of alerting the super-idiots of the universe ... So be careful when writing the social contract. What do *you* intend to put in the contract? Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
Marc: excellent. Even Statis responded - although I cannot understand why he wrote they and not us? My problem is the A pertinent to SAI: s u p e r i n t e l l i g e n c e dores not contain an A. If it is ''a'-rtificial' I question the 'natural one' (following Bruno's fear of the (natural?) 'super stupidity'.) Yet I don't think Marc wants to let himself denature into an artifact. So: what is the A standing for? I have a solution to the ID of superintelligence, I got it in a malicious discussion group of peers when I denigrated the 'exceedingly wealthy' as getting inevitably demoralised, I was asked whom I consider 'exceedingly wealthy'? One chap quipped: whoever is wealthier then himself. So I can find lots of 'superintelligents' in these terms. it is not a contractual belonging-to it is a quality. Unidefinable. But: smarter than me. It is some 'koanic' wisdom of the Budhist to kill all superintelligent on the road. It requires considerable 'intelligence' (whatever that may be) to recognise the more-'so' on the road. In our (definition-wise) lower mentality it is not likely that we can 'kill' the smarter. So the condition involves the un-possibility, even if we are capable to recognise them - what we are not likely to be. On 10/15/07, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le 15-oct.-07, à 07:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : On Oct 14, 3:39 am, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Take care, trust yourself and kill all the SAI on the road, to paraphrase a well known Buddhist idea. Either you are sufficiently clever to understand the SAI arguments, showing you are already an SAI yourself, and your message is without purpose, or you are not, in which case, to keep soundness (by lobianity), you better be skeptical, (and not to abide so quick imo). Unless you want to loose your universality, and be a slave, a tool. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ Heh. Bruno, I continue to analyse my current (human) condition to try to find a way out of this mess (I'm not a happy bloke). Still considering many possibilities. Given the possibility that super- intelligences do already (or will in the future) exist, there's a chance that a non-interference policy is being/will be pursued, but that there's a way to get their attention - it could be a simple matter of indicating that you are aware of the possibility and requesting to 'sign' a 'social contract'. Get in early now! ;) The price of the existence of intelligence, is the existence of stupidity. I am afraid that the price of super-intelligence is super-stupidity, and if you are not super-intelligent yourself, then you cannot be sure of making the difference, and you are taking the risk of alerting the super-idiots of the universe ... So be careful when writing the social contract. What do *you* intend to put in the contract? Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
The best thing you could do is to freeze your brain. I think that will preserve the connections between the neurons, although the cells will be destroyed. This will make it easier for a future civilization to regenerate you digitally - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Everything List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 07:17 AM Subject: Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI On Oct 14, 3:39 am, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Take care, trust yourself and kill all the SAI on the road, to paraphrase a well known Buddhist idea. Either you are sufficiently clever to understand the SAI arguments, showing you are already an SAI yourself, and your message is without purpose, or you are not, in which case, to keep soundness (by lobianity), you better be skeptical, (and not to abide so quick imo). Unless you want to loose your universality, and be a slave, a tool. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ Heh. Bruno, I continue to analyse my current (human) condition to try to find a way out of this mess (I'm not a happy bloke). Still considering many possibilities. Given the possibility that super- intelligences do already (or will in the future) exist, there's a chance that a non-interference policy is being/will be pursued, but that there's a way to get their attention - it could be a simple matter of indicating that you are aware of the possibility and requesting to 'sign' a 'social contract'. Get in early now! ;) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
On 10/13/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 12th October, 2007 Marc Geddes Auckland New Zealand --- This is Marc Geddes , I am publically requesting to form a social contract with SAI (Super Intelligence).I am aware of the existence of SAI and SAI-space and am of sound mind and my own volition requesting to be removed from human space and uplifted to SAI space at the earliest possible opportunately. I agree to abide by all rules and boundaries set by SAI as per my responsibilities under the social contract. Thank you. How do you know you're not already part of a super intelligence which is exploring the potentialities of consciousness by implementing your mind via the appropriate computations, with the goal to later merge your memories with its mind? If all possible universes exist then an infinite number of you are instantied by such super intelligences, and after those copies of you experience death they will experience the supermind. Jason --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
On Oct 14, 3:39 am, Bruno Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Take care, trust yourself and kill all the SAI on the road, to paraphrase a well known Buddhist idea. Either you are sufficiently clever to understand the SAI arguments, showing you are already an SAI yourself, and your message is without purpose, or you are not, in which case, to keep soundness (by lobianity), you better be skeptical, (and not to abide so quick imo). Unless you want to loose your universality, and be a slave, a tool. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ Heh. Bruno, I continue to analyse my current (human) condition to try to find a way out of this mess (I'm not a happy bloke). Still considering many possibilities. Given the possibility that super- intelligences do already (or will in the future) exist, there's a chance that a non-interference policy is being/will be pursued, but that there's a way to get their attention - it could be a simple matter of indicating that you are aware of the possibility and requesting to 'sign' a 'social contract'. Get in early now! ;) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Request to form 'Social Contract' with SAI
Le 13-oct.-07, à 07:11, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : 12th October, 2007 Marc Geddes Auckland New Zealand --- This is Marc Geddes , I am publically requesting to form a social contract with SAI (Super Intelligence).I am aware of the existence of SAI and SAI-space and am of sound mind Do *you* know that? and my own volition requesting to be removed from human space (I can understand sometimes) and uplifted to SAI space at the earliest possible opportunately. I agree to abide by all rules and boundaries set by SAI Do *you* know them? Do you understand them? as per my responsibilities under the social contract. Thank you. Take care, trust yourself and kill all the SAI on the road, to paraphrase a well known Buddhist idea. Either you are sufficiently clever to understand the SAI arguments, showing you are already an SAI yourself, and your message is without purpose, or you are not, in which case, to keep soundness (by lobianity), you better be skeptical, (and not to abide so quick imo). Unless you want to loose your universality, and be a slave, a tool. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---