Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 9:19 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/25/2013 8:54 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 6:45 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/23/2013 3:00 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 12:11 AM, John Mikesjami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo: would you have (by any chance...) a brief identification of something that comes to your mind when speaking about l i f e ? (And please, forget about thebio of this Earthbound Terrestrial Biosphere). (To identify live is a bit easier I think.) Hi John, If I understand your question, I think I do have a general idea of what I, informally, associate with life. I always tend to imagine some self-contained system that is capable of procuring sources of energy in its environment and use that energy to, more or less, maintain it's structure. For 'life', in contrast to 'being alive', I'd add reproduction. That's the real defining characteristic of life. I tend to agree, but maybe we're on the verge of transcending that. If we clone some organism is it still reproduction? What if we tweak the DNA? Sure. It doesn't even have to involve DNA. As Bruno pointed out cigarettes reproduce too. Ok! None of the robots that I've seen so far fit this ideal. Even if they can look for an outlet and recharge their batteries, they are not capable of deeply fixing themselves. They cannot use that energy to rebuild some part of themselves that is damaged. And your ability to do that is quite limited. So if a robot could replace a damaged limb with one from a supply cabinet it'd be one up on us. Sure, but I feel there's something to the deep mechanisms of living organisms, as I stated in my reply to John. I'm waxing poetic a bit here, sorry! What's 'deep' is that there's a whole complex interdependent system of life. You couldn't maintain your body if there were not all those plants and animals from which you can get pre-built proteins. Just like cigarettes couldn't reproduce without tobacco farmers. Also ok :) Telmo. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 9:16 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo, thanks for your effort of replying. However... (there is always one): You haven't seen ALL and the BEST robots, have you? I admit my ignorance, of course. Batteries are some primitive gadgets for a starting line of development. What is deeply? It's akin to fractal in the sense I'm thinking. Organs, tissues, cells, mitochondria -- or whatever the equivalent of these things are. And what is that 'energy' you invoke? (And: YES, they CAN rebuild damaged parts from their environment (Rosen's MR) if they have the tools. (Just arrived Brent's similar remark to the list). Sure, but life is organised in a way that is almost recursive. It rebuilds across scales. I'm not being very rigorous here, but I get the sense you're asking about what I feel life to be. Why do you hold 'computational resources' as fundamental to being alive? Some limited resource, otherwise there's no creative tension. No adaptive niches, for example. Computation is a human mental peculiarity - an 'evolved resource' by 'being alive' (whatever that means). How 'bout Bruno's Universal Machine? I like Bruno's Universal Machine. If he's right, I think this machine is at a meta level in relation to what we're discussing. But are you asking perhaps if I think this machine is alive? There are so many misconceptions about 'life' (mainly HUMAN) floating around. Religious ones e.g. fix the beginning of it at conception of an egg and a sperm, (my question to that: show me a dead sperm and a dead egg the combining of which will START a human life - consequently those ingredients have to be 'alive' = having that darn 'life' in them to go on with it). Not sure I agree here, but they are seeds for sure. And seed are very interesting things. So I do not see an answer to my question in your reply. Try again? I can keep trying. Best, Telmo. John M On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 6:00 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 12:11 AM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo: would you have (by any chance...) a brief identification of something that comes to your mind when speaking about l i f e ? (And please, forget about thebio of this Earthbound Terrestrial Biosphere). (To identify live is a bit easier I think.) Hi John, If I understand your question, I think I do have a general idea of what I, informally, associate with life. I always tend to imagine some self-contained system that is capable of procuring sources of energy in its environment and use that energy to, more or less, maintain it's structure. None of the robots that I've seen so far fit this ideal. Even if they can look for an outlet and recharge their batteries, they are not capable of deeply fixing themselves. They cannot use that energy to rebuild some part of themselves that is damaged. Simulation environments don't convince me either (and I've built a few myself), because there's not real energy at stake. Now, if someone created a program that was capable of programming itself in an effort to try to maximise it's ability to achieve it goals by making the best possible use of the available computational resources, then I might eventually see it as being alive. If you meant something else, please tell me. Best, Telmo. John M On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Unfortunately this appears to be bs: http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/09/20/136220/alien-life-story-of-dubious-provenance-goes-viral (but what do I know!) Best, Telmo. On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: Seems like the Pangea hypothesis might have gotten some evidence... wouldn't say this is conclusive though, but it is intriguing. -Chris Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space Scientists from the University of Sheffield believe they have found life arriving to Earth from space after sending a balloon to the stratosphere.’ After it landed, scientists discovered that they had captured a diatom fragment and some unusual biological entities from the stratosphere, all of which are too large to have come from Earth. Other scientists disagree, as noted here: New Alien Life Claim Far from Convincing, Scientists Say The team, led by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham Universities) Milton Wainwright, from the University’s Department of Molecular Biology and Biotechnology found small organisms that could have come from space after sending a specially designed balloon to 27km into the stratosphere during the recent Perseid meteor shower. Professor Wainwright said: “Most people will assume that these biological particles must have just drifted up to the stratosphere from Earth, but it is generally accepted that a
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 9:43 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/23/2013 12:16 PM, John Mikes wrote: Why do you hold 'computational resources' as fundamental to being alive? Computation is a human mental peculiarity - an 'evolved resource' by 'being alive' (whatever that means). In the sense of writing equations and numbers down or doing arithmetic. But in the more general sense of information processing, then computation is an essential part of metabolism. It means taking stuff that's not you, and using code that describes your stuff, transform it into stuff that is you. Nice. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 6:45 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/23/2013 3:00 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 12:11 AM, John Mikesjami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo: would you have (by any chance...) a brief identification of something that comes to your mind when speaking about l i f e ? (And please, forget about thebio of this Earthbound Terrestrial Biosphere). (To identify live is a bit easier I think.) Hi John, If I understand your question, I think I do have a general idea of what I, informally, associate with life. I always tend to imagine some self-contained system that is capable of procuring sources of energy in its environment and use that energy to, more or less, maintain it's structure. For 'life', in contrast to 'being alive', I'd add reproduction. That's the real defining characteristic of life. I tend to agree, but maybe we're on the verge of transcending that. If we clone some organism is it still reproduction? What if we tweak the DNA? None of the robots that I've seen so far fit this ideal. Even if they can look for an outlet and recharge their batteries, they are not capable of deeply fixing themselves. They cannot use that energy to rebuild some part of themselves that is damaged. And your ability to do that is quite limited. So if a robot could replace a damaged limb with one from a supply cabinet it'd be one up on us. Sure, but I feel there's something to the deep mechanisms of living organisms, as I stated in my reply to John. I'm waxing poetic a bit here, sorry! Brent Simulation environments don't convince me either (and I've built a few myself), because there's not real energy at stake. Now, if someone created a program that was capable of programming itself in an effort to try to maximise it's ability to achieve it goals by making the best possible use of the available computational resources, then I might eventually see it as being alive. If you meant something else, please tell me. Best, Telmo. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
A cell's ribosome computes. it receives input sets of mRNA and uses these to assemble specific amino acid chains. Change the input mRNA and you get a different folded protein chain as the product. From: Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:46 AM Subject: Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 9:43 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/23/2013 12:16 PM, John Mikes wrote: Why do you hold 'computational resources' as fundamental to being alive? Computation is a human mental peculiarity - an 'evolved resource' by 'being alive' (whatever that means). In the sense of writing equations and numbers down or doing arithmetic. But in the more general sense of information processing, then computation is an essential part of metabolism. It means taking stuff that's not you, and using code that describes your stuff, transform it into stuff that is you. Nice. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 12:11 AM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo: would you have (by any chance...) a brief identification of something that comes to your mind when speaking about l i f e ? (And please, forget about thebio of this Earthbound Terrestrial Biosphere). (To identify live is a bit easier I think.) Hi John, If I understand your question, I think I do have a general idea of what I, informally, associate with life. I always tend to imagine some self-contained system that is capable of procuring sources of energy in its environment and use that energy to, more or less, maintain it's structure. None of the robots that I've seen so far fit this ideal. Even if they can look for an outlet and recharge their batteries, they are not capable of deeply fixing themselves. They cannot use that energy to rebuild some part of themselves that is damaged. Simulation environments don't convince me either (and I've built a few myself), because there's not real energy at stake. Now, if someone created a program that was capable of programming itself in an effort to try to maximise it's ability to achieve it goals by making the best possible use of the available computational resources, then I might eventually see it as being alive. If you meant something else, please tell me. Best, Telmo. John M On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Unfortunately this appears to be bs: http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/09/20/136220/alien-life-story-of-dubious-provenance-goes-viral (but what do I know!) Best, Telmo. On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: Seems like the Pangea hypothesis might have gotten some evidence... wouldn't say this is conclusive though, but it is intriguing. -Chris Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space Scientists from the University of Sheffield believe they have found life arriving to Earth from space after sending a balloon to the stratosphere.’ After it landed, scientists discovered that they had captured a diatom fragment and some unusual biological entities from the stratosphere, all of which are too large to have come from Earth. Other scientists disagree, as noted here: New Alien Life Claim Far from Convincing, Scientists Say The team, led by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham Universities) Milton Wainwright, from the University’s Department of Molecular Biology and Biotechnology found small organisms that could have come from space after sending a specially designed balloon to 27km into the stratosphere during the recent Perseid meteor shower. Professor Wainwright said: “Most people will assume that these biological particles must have just drifted up to the stratosphere from Earth, but it is generally accepted that a particle of the size found cannot be lifted from Earth to heights of, for example, 27km. The only known exception is by a violent volcanic eruption, none of which occurred within three years of the sampling trip. “In the absence of a mechanism by which large particles like these can be transported to the stratosphere we can only conclude that the biological entities originated from space. Our conclusion then is that life is continually arriving to Earth from space, life is not restricted to this planet and it almost certainly did not originate here.” Professor Wainwright said the results could be revolutionary: “If life does continue to arrive from space then we have to completely change our view of biology and evolution,” he added. “New textbooks will have to be written!” Professor Wainwright said stringent precautions had been taken against the possibility of contamination during sampling and processing, and said the group was confident that the biological organisms could only have come from the stratosphere. The group’s findings have been published in the Journal of Cosmology (open access) and updated versions will appear in the same journal, a new version of which will be published in the near future. Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe of the Buckingham, University Center for Astrobiology (of which Professor Wainwright is an Honorary Fellow) also gave a presentation of the group’s findings at a meeting of astronomers and astrobiologists in San Diego last month. Professor Wainwright added: “Of course it will be argued that there must be an, as yet, unknown mechanism for transferring large particles from Earth to the high stratosphere, but we stand by our conclusions. The absolutely crucial experiment will come when we do what is called ‘isotope fractionation’. We will take some of the samples which we have isolated from the stratosphere and introduce them into a complex machine – a button will be pressed. If the ratio of certain isotopes gives one number then our organisms are from
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
On Monday, September 23, 2013 12:45:00 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: For 'life', in contrast to 'being alive', I'd add reproduction. That's the real defining characteristic of life. You don't have to reproduce to be alive though, and any chain reaction can be considered reproduction. To me, life is more about a quality of sensitivity which can produce intentionally sustained action against entropy. Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
On 9/23/2013 11:49 AM, John Mikes wrote: Brent - REPRODUCTION - in our 'biology' there is only one strain that reproduces: the prokaryotes by mitosis. In most(?) heterosex procreation you take TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES and by combining some products of them you CREATE a third one, not identical to any of the procreating parents. Biologist friends were surprised, but finally agreed. Dawkins would point out that it's genes that get reproduced. There was ONE smartAlec who changed my topic to 'reproduction of the SPECIES' - which is fine, as long as we know much enough of the details of that 'specie' - what we usually don't. (Cf: drug-resistence of microbes). For an alien all humans are identical, even many animal kinds included. I would not deny the Robert Rosen characteristics-cryterion: his M R the Metabolism and Repair. I don't find it a definitive description, but in most cases it works fine as main attribute. Reproduction? no way. A mule is alive. Did you miss that I was making a distinction between 'life' (as in 'Is there life on Mars?') and 'being alive'. Sure a mule is alive. But mules don't constitute life. Brent JohnM On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, September 23, 2013 12:45:00 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: For 'life', in contrast to 'being alive', I'd add reproduction. That's the real defining characteristic of life. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
Telmo, thanks for your effort of replying. However... (there is always one): You haven't seen ALL and the BEST robots, have you? Batteries are some primitive gadgets for a starting line of development. What is deeply? And what is that 'energy' you invoke? (And: YES, they CAN rebuild damaged parts from their environment (Rosen's MR) if they have the tools. (Just arrived Brent's similar remark to the list). Why do you hold 'computational resources' as fundamental to being alive? Computation is a human mental peculiarity - an 'evolved resource' by '*being * alive' (whatever that means). How 'bout Bruno's Universal Machine? There are so many misconceptions about 'life' (mainly HUMAN) floating around. Religious ones e.g. fix the beginning of it at conception of an egg and a sperm, (my question to that: show me a dead sperm and a dead egg the combining of which will START a human life - consequently those ingredients have to be 'alive' = having that darn 'life' in them to go on with it). So I do not see an answer to my question in your reply. Try again? John M On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 6:00 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 12:11 AM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo: would you have (by any chance...) a brief identification of something that comes to your mind when speaking about l i f e ? (And please, forget about thebio of this Earthbound Terrestrial Biosphere). (To identify live is a bit easier I think.) Hi John, If I understand your question, I think I do have a general idea of what I, informally, associate with life. I always tend to imagine some self-contained system that is capable of procuring sources of energy in its environment and use that energy to, more or less, maintain it's structure. None of the robots that I've seen so far fit this ideal. Even if they can look for an outlet and recharge their batteries, they are not capable of deeply fixing themselves. They cannot use that energy to rebuild some part of themselves that is damaged. Simulation environments don't convince me either (and I've built a few myself), because there's not real energy at stake. Now, if someone created a program that was capable of programming itself in an effort to try to maximise it's ability to achieve it goals by making the best possible use of the available computational resources, then I might eventually see it as being alive. If you meant something else, please tell me. Best, Telmo. John M On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Unfortunately this appears to be bs: http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/09/20/136220/alien-life-story-of-dubious-provenance-goes-viral (but what do I know!) Best, Telmo. On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: Seems like the Pangea hypothesis might have gotten some evidence... wouldn't say this is conclusive though, but it is intriguing. -Chris Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space Scientists from the University of Sheffield believe they have found life arriving to Earth from space after sending a balloon to the stratosphere.’ After it landed, scientists discovered that they had captured a diatom fragment and some unusual biological entities from the stratosphere, all of which are too large to have come from Earth. Other scientists disagree, as noted here: New Alien Life Claim Far from Convincing, Scientists Say The team, led by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham Universities) Milton Wainwright, from the University’s Department of Molecular Biology and Biotechnology found small organisms that could have come from space after sending a specially designed balloon to 27km into the stratosphere during the recent Perseid meteor shower. Professor Wainwright said: “Most people will assume that these biological particles must have just drifted up to the stratosphere from Earth, but it is generally accepted that a particle of the size found cannot be lifted from Earth to heights of, for example, 27km. The only known exception is by a violent volcanic eruption, none of which occurred within three years of the sampling trip. “In the absence of a mechanism by which large particles like these can be transported to the stratosphere we can only conclude that the biological entities originated from space. Our conclusion then is that life is continually arriving to Earth from space, life is not restricted to this planet and it almost certainly did not originate here.” Professor Wainwright said the results could be revolutionary: “If life does continue to arrive from space then we have to completely change our view of biology and evolution,” he added. “New textbooks will have to be written!” Professor Wainwright said stringent
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
Brent - REPRODUCTION - in our 'biology' there is only one strain that reproduces: the prokaryotes by mitosis. In most(?) heterosex procreation you take TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES and by combining some products of them you CREATE a third one, not identical to any of the procreating parents. Biologist friends were surprised, but finally agreed. There was ONE smartAlec who changed my topic to 'reproduction of the SPECIES' - which is fine, as long as we know much enough of the details of that 'specie' - what we usually don't. (Cf: drug-resistence of microbes). For an alien all humans are identical, even many animal kinds included. I would not deny the Robert Rosen characteristics-cryterion: his M R the Metabolism and Repair. I don't find it a definitive description, but in most cases it works fine as main attribute. Reproduction? no way. A mule is alive. JohnM On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: On Monday, September 23, 2013 12:45:00 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: For 'life', in contrast to 'being alive', I'd add reproduction. That's the real defining characteristic of life. You don't have to reproduce to be alive though, and any chain reaction can be considered reproduction. To me, life is more about a quality of sensitivity which can produce intentionally sustained action against entropy. Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
I have a profound respect to Dawkins, but why should I believe him? Why would you restrict the 'genes' to those (physical worldly - conventional scientific) measurements that show a 'match' to the 'parents' similarly superficially mapped genes? All 'networks' go infinite with branching further and further into more and more aspects (the genes not exempted) - it is a likely (human?) vision of the infinite complexity we have only a small glimpse of. Your distinction: can something be alive without life? Then my question stands. Could you describe 'being alive' without the concept of 'life'? Mules don't constitute life - no, mules constitute animals - a transition between a horse and an ass. Both rife with life - except for the progeny? JM On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 2:57 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/23/2013 11:49 AM, John Mikes wrote: Brent - REPRODUCTION - in our 'biology' there is only one strain that reproduces: the prokaryotes by mitosis. In most(?) heterosex procreation you take TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES and by combining some products of them you CREATE a third one, not identical to any of the procreating parents. Biologist friends were surprised, but finally agreed. Dawkins would point out that it's genes that get reproduced. There was ONE smartAlec who changed my topic to 'reproduction of the SPECIES' - which is fine, as long as we know much enough of the details of that 'specie' - what we usually don't. (Cf: drug-resistence of microbes). For an alien all humans are identical, even many animal kinds included. I would not deny the Robert Rosen characteristics-cryterion: his M R the Metabolism and Repair. I don't find it a definitive description, but in most cases it works fine as main attribute. Reproduction? no way. A mule is alive. Did you miss that I was making a distinction between 'life' (as in 'Is there life on Mars?') and 'being alive'. Sure a mule is alive. But mules don't constitute life. Brent JohnM On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: On Monday, September 23, 2013 12:45:00 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: For 'life', in contrast to 'being alive', I'd add reproduction. That's the real defining characteristic of life. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
On 9/23/2013 12:32 PM, John Mikes wrote: I have a profound respect to Dawkins, but why should I believe him? Why would you restrict the 'genes' to those (physical worldly - conventional scientific) measurements that show a 'match' to the 'parents' similarly superficially mapped genes? That's an outdated conception of genes. Genes are coding sequences in DNA. They are not 'superficially mapped' measurements. They can be moved from one animal to another - c.f. rabbits that glow in the dark. All 'networks' go infinite with branching further and further into more and more aspects (the genes not exempted) - it is a likely (human?) vision of the infinite complexity we have only a small glimpse of. So what? We don't know a lot, but we know somethings. Your distinction: can something be alive without life? Then my question stands. Could you describe 'being alive' without the concept of 'life'? Being alive is well described by metabolism for maintenance and homeostasis. So mules are definitely alive. But there's no sharp distinction. A robot that can recharge itself is a little bit alive too. And a virus that can only metabolize by hijacking the mechanism of a cell is a little bit alive too. But to have life you need reproduction - which is just maintenance at a species level. Mules don't constitute life - no, mules constitute animals - a transition between a horse and an ass. Between a jackass and a mare. But they're not a transition, they're a hybrid. Brent Both rife with life - except for the progeny? JM On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 2:57 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/23/2013 11:49 AM, John Mikes wrote: Brent - REPRODUCTION - in our 'biology' there is only one strain that reproduces: the prokaryotes by mitosis. In most(?) heterosex procreation you take TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES and by combining some products of them you CREATE a third one, not identical to any of the procreating parents. Biologist friends were surprised, but finally agreed. Dawkins would point out that it's genes that get reproduced. There was ONE smartAlec who changed my topic to 'reproduction of the SPECIES' - which is fine, as long as we know much enough of the details of that 'specie' - what we usually don't. (Cf: drug-resistence of microbes). For an alien all humans are identical, even many animal kinds included. I would not deny the Robert Rosen characteristics-cryterion: his M R the Metabolism and Repair. I don't find it a definitive description, but in most cases it works fine as main attribute. Reproduction? no way. A mule is alive. Did you miss that I was making a distinction between 'life' (as in 'Is there life on Mars?') and 'being alive'. Sure a mule is alive. But mules don't constitute life. Brent JohnM On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, September 23, 2013 12:45:00 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: For 'life', in contrast to 'being alive', I'd add reproduction. That's the real defining characteristic of life. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
On 9/23/2013 12:16 PM, John Mikes wrote: Why do you hold 'computational resources' as fundamental to being alive? Computation is a human mental peculiarity - an 'evolved resource' by '_being_ alive' (whatever that means). In the sense of writing equations and numbers down or doing arithmetic. But in the more general sense of information processing, then computation is an essential part of metabolism. It means taking stuff that's not you, and using code that describes your stuff, transform it into stuff that is you. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
On 9/23/2013 3:00 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 12:11 AM, John Mikesjami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo: would you have (by any chance...) a brief identification of something that comes to your mind when speaking about l i f e ? (And please, forget about thebio of this Earthbound Terrestrial Biosphere). (To identify live is a bit easier I think.) Hi John, If I understand your question, I think I do have a general idea of what I, informally, associate with life. I always tend to imagine some self-contained system that is capable of procuring sources of energy in its environment and use that energy to, more or less, maintain it's structure. For 'life', in contrast to 'being alive', I'd add reproduction. That's the real defining characteristic of life. None of the robots that I've seen so far fit this ideal. Even if they can look for an outlet and recharge their batteries, they are not capable of deeply fixing themselves. They cannot use that energy to rebuild some part of themselves that is damaged. And your ability to do that is quite limited. So if a robot could replace a damaged limb with one from a supply cabinet it'd be one up on us. Brent Simulation environments don't convince me either (and I've built a few myself), because there's not real energy at stake. Now, if someone created a program that was capable of programming itself in an effort to try to maximise it's ability to achieve it goals by making the best possible use of the available computational resources, then I might eventually see it as being alive. If you meant something else, please tell me. Best, Telmo. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
Lol, of course thanks for catching that. -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 7:30 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 10:52:41AM -0700, Chris de Morsella wrote: Damn there goes pangea lol Just to be persnickety, Pangaea is the name given to the last supercontinent, ca 300Mya. What you are thinking of is panspermia, the idea that life was seeded from space. Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
Unfortunately this appears to be bs: http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/09/20/136220/alien-life-story-of-dubious-provenance-goes-viral (but what do I know!) Best, Telmo. On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: Seems like the Pangea hypothesis might have gotten some evidence... wouldn't say this is conclusive though, but it is intriguing. -Chris Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space Scientists from the University of Sheffield believe they have found life arriving to Earth from space after sending a balloon to the stratosphere.’ After it landed, scientists discovered that they had captured a diatom fragment and some unusual biological entities from the stratosphere, all of which are too large to have come from Earth. Other scientists disagree, as noted here: New Alien Life Claim Far from Convincing, Scientists Say The team, led by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham Universities) Milton Wainwright, from the University’s Department of Molecular Biology and Biotechnology found small organisms that could have come from space after sending a specially designed balloon to 27km into the stratosphere during the recent Perseid meteor shower. Professor Wainwright said: “Most people will assume that these biological particles must have just drifted up to the stratosphere from Earth, but it is generally accepted that a particle of the size found cannot be lifted from Earth to heights of, for example, 27km. The only known exception is by a violent volcanic eruption, none of which occurred within three years of the sampling trip. “In the absence of a mechanism by which large particles like these can be transported to the stratosphere we can only conclude that the biological entities originated from space. Our conclusion then is that life is continually arriving to Earth from space, life is not restricted to this planet and it almost certainly did not originate here.” Professor Wainwright said the results could be revolutionary: “If life does continue to arrive from space then we have to completely change our view of biology and evolution,” he added. “New textbooks will have to be written!” Professor Wainwright said stringent precautions had been taken against the possibility of contamination during sampling and processing, and said the group was confident that the biological organisms could only have come from the stratosphere. The group’s findings have been published in the Journal of Cosmology (open access) and updated versions will appear in the same journal, a new version of which will be published in the near future. Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe of the Buckingham, University Center for Astrobiology (of which Professor Wainwright is an Honorary Fellow) also gave a presentation of the group’s findings at a meeting of astronomers and astrobiologists in San Diego last month. Professor Wainwright added: “Of course it will be argued that there must be an, as yet, unknown mechanism for transferring large particles from Earth to the high stratosphere, but we stand by our conclusions. The absolutely crucial experiment will come when we do what is called ‘isotope fractionation’. We will take some of the samples which we have isolated from the stratosphere and introduce them into a complex machine – a button will be pressed. If the ratio of certain isotopes gives one number then our organisms are from Earth, if it gives another, then they are from space. The tension will obviously be almost impossible to live with!” The research was conducted by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham Universities) Milton Wainwright from the University of Sheffield, Chris Rose and Alex Baker from the University of Sheffield’s Leonardo Centre for Tribology and Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe Director of the Centre for Astrobiology, University of Buckingham. http://www.kurzweilai.net/scientists-claim-discovery-of-life-coming-to-earth-from-space?utm_source=KurzweilAI+Daily+Newsletterutm_campaign=60630eb1c2-UA-946742-1utm_medium=emailutm_term=0_6de721fb33-60630eb1c2-281942553 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit
RE: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
Damn there goes pangea lol I saw this yesterday on Kurzweil's blog and went back to the post to check it and saw they had put out this UPDATE to the original, which I am pasting below. -Chris UPDATE Sept. 21, 2013 1:00 EDT In a blog post on KurzweilAI, theoretical biologist Dr. Richard Gordon called these conclusions into question, noting that just one broken diatom shell was found (not statistically impressive), no controlled experiment was reported in a dusty environment, collection methods and lab conditions were unspecified, and the study failed to provide data on the condition of the balloon-borne equipment. He also noted that there is literature on how hurricanes and storms move diatoms through the atmosphere, and that there have been several mechanisms suggested for the transfer of particles to the upper atmosphere. For example, bacteria and other biological materials are common components of cloud condensation nuclei. Professor Wainwright said: Most people will assume that these biological particles must have just drifted up to the stratosphere from Earth, but it is generally accepted that a particle of the size found cannot be lifted from Earth to heights of, for example, 27km. The only known exception is by a violent volcanic eruption, none of which occurred within three years of the sampling trip. In the absence of a mechanism by which large particles like these can be transported to the stratosphere we can only conclude that the biological entities originated from space. Our conclusion then is that life is continually arriving to Earth from space, life is not restricted to this planet and it almost certainly did not originate here. Professor Wainwright said the results could be revolutionary: If life does continue to arrive from space then we have to completely change our view of biology and evolution, he added. New textbooks will have to be written! Professor Wainwright said stringent precautions had been taken against the possibility of contamination during sampling and processing, and said the group was confident that the biological organisms could only have come from the stratosphere. The group's findings have been published in the Journal of Cosmology (open access) and updated versions will appear in the same journal, a new version of which will be published in the near future. Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe of the Buckingham, University Center for Astrobiology (of which Professor Wainwright is an Honorary Fellow) also gave a presentation of the group's findings at a meeting of astronomers and astrobiologists in San Diego last month. Professor Wainwright added: Of course it will be argued that there must be an, as yet, unknown mechanism for transferring large particles from Earth to the high stratosphere, but we stand by our conclusions. The absolutely crucial experiment will come when we do what is called 'isotope fractionation'. We will take some of the samples which we have isolated from the stratosphere and introduce them into a complex machine - a button will be pressed. If the ratio of certain isotopes gives one number then our organisms are from Earth, if it gives another, then they are from space. The tension will obviously be almost impossible to live with! The research was conducted by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham Universities) Milton Wainwright from the University of Sheffield, Chris Rose and Alex Baker from the University of Sheffield's Leonardo Centre for Tribology and Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe Director of the Centre for Astrobiology, University of Buckingham. -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 5:47 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space Unfortunately this appears to be bs: http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/09/20/136220/alien-life-story-of-dubiou s-provenance-goes-viral (but what do I know!) Best, Telmo. On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: Seems like the Pangea hypothesis might have gotten some evidence... wouldn't say this is conclusive though, but it is intriguing. -Chris Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space Scientists from the University of Sheffield believe they have found life arriving to Earth from space after sending a balloon to the stratosphere.' After it landed, scientists discovered that they had captured a diatom fragment and some unusual biological entities from the stratosphere, all of which are too large to have come from Earth. Other scientists disagree, as noted here: New Alien Life Claim Far from Convincing, Scientists Say The team, led by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham Universities) Milton Wainwright, from the University's Department of Molecular Biology and Biotechnology found small organisms that could
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
Telmo: would you have (by any chance...) a brief identification of something that comes to your mind when speaking about l i f e ? (And please, forget about thebio of this Earthbound Terrestrial Biosphere). (To identify live is a bit easier I think.) John M On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: Unfortunately this appears to be bs: http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/09/20/136220/alien-life-story-of-dubious-provenance-goes-viral (but what do I know!) Best, Telmo. On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: Seems like the Pangea hypothesis might have gotten some evidence... wouldn't say this is conclusive though, but it is intriguing. -Chris Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space Scientists from the University of Sheffield believe they have found life arriving to Earth from space after sending a balloon to the stratosphere.’ After it landed, scientists discovered that they had captured a diatom fragment and some unusual biological entities from the stratosphere, all of which are too large to have come from Earth. Other scientists disagree, as noted here: New Alien Life Claim Far from Convincing, Scientists Say The team, led by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham Universities) Milton Wainwright, from the University’s Department of Molecular Biology and Biotechnology found small organisms that could have come from space after sending a specially designed balloon to 27km into the stratosphere during the recent Perseid meteor shower. Professor Wainwright said: “Most people will assume that these biological particles must have just drifted up to the stratosphere from Earth, but it is generally accepted that a particle of the size found cannot be lifted from Earth to heights of, for example, 27km. The only known exception is by a violent volcanic eruption, none of which occurred within three years of the sampling trip. “In the absence of a mechanism by which large particles like these can be transported to the stratosphere we can only conclude that the biological entities originated from space. Our conclusion then is that life is continually arriving to Earth from space, life is not restricted to this planet and it almost certainly did not originate here.” Professor Wainwright said the results could be revolutionary: “If life does continue to arrive from space then we have to completely change our view of biology and evolution,” he added. “New textbooks will have to be written!” Professor Wainwright said stringent precautions had been taken against the possibility of contamination during sampling and processing, and said the group was confident that the biological organisms could only have come from the stratosphere. The group’s findings have been published in the Journal of Cosmology (open access) and updated versions will appear in the same journal, a new version of which will be published in the near future. Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe of the Buckingham, University Center for Astrobiology (of which Professor Wainwright is an Honorary Fellow) also gave a presentation of the group’s findings at a meeting of astronomers and astrobiologists in San Diego last month. Professor Wainwright added: “Of course it will be argued that there must be an, as yet, unknown mechanism for transferring large particles from Earth to the high stratosphere, but we stand by our conclusions. The absolutely crucial experiment will come when we do what is called ‘isotope fractionation’. We will take some of the samples which we have isolated from the stratosphere and introduce them into a complex machine – a button will be pressed. If the ratio of certain isotopes gives one number then our organisms are from Earth, if it gives another, then they are from space. The tension will obviously be almost impossible to live with!” The research was conducted by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham Universities) Milton Wainwright from the University of Sheffield, Chris Rose and Alex Baker from the University of Sheffield’s Leonardo Centre for Tribology and Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe Director of the Centre for Astrobiology, University of Buckingham. http://www.kurzweilai.net/scientists-claim-discovery-of-life-coming-to-earth-from-space?utm_source=KurzweilAI+Daily+Newsletterutm_campaign=60630eb1c2-UA-946742-1utm_medium=emailutm_term=0_6de721fb33-60630eb1c2-281942553 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 10:52:41AM -0700, Chris de Morsella wrote: Damn there goes pangea lol Just to be persnickety, Pangaea is the name given to the last supercontinent, ca 300Mya. What you are thinking of is panspermia, the idea that life was seeded from space. Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
Seems like the Pangea hypothesis might have gotten some evidence... wouldn't say this is conclusive though, but it is intriguing. -Chris Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space Scientists from the University of Sheffield believe they have found life arriving to Earth from space after sending a balloon to the stratosphere.’ After it landed, scientists discovered that they had captured a diatom fragment and some unusual biological entities from the stratosphere, all of which are too large to have come from Earth. Other scientists disagree, as noted here: New Alien Life Claim Far from Convincing, Scientists Say The team, led by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham Universities) Milton Wainwright, from the University’s Department of Molecular Biology and Biotechnology found small organisms that could have come from space after sending a specially designed balloon to 27km into the stratosphere during the recent Perseid meteor shower. Professor Wainwright said: “Most people will assume that these biological particles must have just drifted up to the stratosphere from Earth, but it is generally accepted that a particle of the size found cannot be lifted from Earth to heights of, for example, 27km. The only known exception is by a violent volcanic eruption, none of which occurred within three years of the sampling trip. “In the absence of a mechanism by which large particles like these can be transported to the stratosphere we can only conclude that the biological entities originated from space. Our conclusion then is that life is continually arriving to Earth from space, life is not restricted to this planet and it almost certainly did not originate here.” Professor Wainwright said the results could be revolutionary: “If life does continue to arrive from space then we have to completely change our view of biology and evolution,” he added. “New textbooks will have to be written!” Professor Wainwright said stringent precautions had been taken against the possibility of contamination during sampling and processing, and said the group was confident that the biological organisms could only have come from the stratosphere. The group’s findings have been published in the Journal of Cosmology (open access) and updated versions will appear in the same journal, a new version of which will be published in the near future. Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe of the Buckingham, University Center for Astrobiology (of which Professor Wainwright is an Honorary Fellow) also gave a presentation of the group’s findings at a meeting of astronomers and astrobiologists in San Diego last month. Professor Wainwright added: “Of course it will be argued that there must be an, as yet, unknown mechanism for transferring large particles from Earth to the high stratosphere, but we stand by our conclusions. The absolutely crucial experiment will come when we do what is called ‘isotope fractionation’. We will take some of the samples which we have isolated from the stratosphere and introduce them into a complex machine – a button will be pressed. If the ratio of certain isotopes gives one number then our organisms are from Earth, if it gives another, then they are from space. The tension will obviously be almost impossible to live with!” The research was conducted by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham Universities) Milton Wainwright from the University of Sheffield, Chris Rose and Alex Baker from the University of Sheffield’s Leonardo Centre for Tribology and Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe Director of the Centre for Astrobiology, University of Buckingham. http://www.kurzweilai.net/scientists-claim-discovery-of-life-coming-to-earth-from-space?utm_source=KurzweilAI+Daily+Newsletterutm_campaign=60630eb1c2-UA-946742-1utm_medium=emailutm_term=0_6de721fb33-60630eb1c2-281942553 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
