Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2014-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 20 Aug 2013, at 14:13, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:


Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing,


That's gross.


albeit it would have been better if Bin Laden had focusses only on  
legitimate military targets like the White House, the US Congress,  
the Senate and the Pentagon.


My bag of evidences that 9/11 is a false flag has grown bigger than  
the bag of evidences that Bin Laden is the responsible one. The main  
evidence for the false flag is the total lack of seriousness of the  
NIST official report. I am afraid the war on terror is as much fear  
selling than the war on drugs.


Bruno






Citeren Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net:



The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y

Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
See my Leibniz site at
http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-09-04 Thread Alberto G. Corona
For a pure economic study of the crises of the middle ages, I recommend

The rise of the western world

http://www.amazon.com/The-Rise-Western-World-Economic/dp/0521290996

It is plenty of insights about why happened what.

It is a bit hard for non economists but it worth the pain.




2013/8/29 spudboy...@aol.com

 So very true. During that time we had the Black Plague (1st of 4) and even
 before this we had the start of the Little Ice Age, which caused
 starvation, and weakend the populations of Asia, Africa, and Europe (hunger
 produces children with weaker immune systems) and again a high death rate.
 Perhaps 25%-33% of the continent. It was a time of calamities-human and
 otherwise.

  And yet the greatest mass murderer of all history remains Genghis Khan…
 lest we forget. The Mongol hordes of Genghis Khan murdered so many people
 that there was a corresponding measurable drop in humanities global carbon
 footprint, because so many people were wiped out that huge areas reverted
 back to forest because there was no one to farm the land. Human brutality
 to other humans (and our planet) has a long and bloody history, and the
 champion genocidalist (if I may coin the word) of all time committed his
 crimes more than 800 years ago, and without modern technology.
 -Chris




 -Original Message-
 From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Aug 27, 2013 12:34 pm
 Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

   And yet the greatest mass murderer of all history remains Genghis Khan…
 lest we forget. The Mongol hordes of Genghis Khan murdered so many people
 that there was a corresponding measurable drop in humanities global carbon
 footprint, because so many people were wiped out that huge areas reverted
 back to forest because there was no one to farm the land. Human brutality
 to other humans (and our planet) has a long and bloody history, and the
 champion genocidalist (if I may coin the word) of all time committed his
 crimes more than 800 years ago, and without modern technology.
 -Chris

 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [
 mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.comeverything-list@googlegroups.com?]
 *On Behalf Of *spudboy...@aol.com
 *Sent:* Tuesday, August 27, 2013 4:29 AM
 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Subject:* Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

  As someone who voted for Al Gore in 2000 (he liked hydrogen cars, what
 can I say?) I don't believe it was corruption that won Bush jr. his
 election, but the idiocies of the electoral process. Hanging chads or
 accusations of Deibold voting machines not withstanding. Democracy, is not
 a thing most Muslims seem to like, or like the communists and the Nazis,
 appear to see it as a stepping stone to power and what they wanted in its
 ultimate form. What most governments today are not Republics-although the
 voting methods still are, we are corporatist governments. Corporatism is
 not just corporations, but something else. Please view Wikipedia's
 corporatism article its splendid because its informative.

  What is lacking from this forum/thread is the awareness of the perfidies
 of socialism, as well as capitalism-a one way street. If we want to lambast
 capitalists for mass murder (and you guys do!) the look no further than
 Belgium's rubber plantations in central Africa. (sorry Bruno!) where 8
 million Africans were worked to death, because of incentives offered by the
 Belgian government at the time-an incredible history there. Finally, the
 Nazis couldn't have gained power without the German communists cooperation
 with the SA, where as they began to stage street battles SA v. the Red
 Scarves in order to undermine Weimar, as being ineffective to make the
 streets safe.

  For an intense look at the Nazi-Soviet ear, please consider reading Tim
 Snyder's The Bloodlands-Between Stalin and Hitler. Siding with totalitarian
 Al Qaeda, is also foolish, as their goals are Sharia Law worldwide.
 Secondly even is Saibal's   view is accurate (attack the military only) it
 wound up have the US push the Taleban from power, and the wars in the
 middle east gather so many fanatical jihadists there that it was a magnet
 for their destruction (unintentionally) because the US and Nato forces
 turned many of them into non-combative corpses-reducing the jihadist
 troops. Under Obama, with his policies-their fortunes have reversed. I am
 guessing they are planning some nasty surprises for the US, which will no
 doubt make Smitra all jolly.
  -Original Message-
 From: chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 8:22 pm
 Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
   corruption in politics (US elections 2000) is good in hind sight
 because it led to democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq.

 or one more up Saibal's street:

 In hind sight the end of the Raj was a bad thing

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-29 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 28 Aug 2013, at 17:24, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:


Hi Chris,

...


This is why physics and not philosophy is the best way to describe  
the world.


But that's a philosophical point. And it is technically (quasi)  
refuted by comp (+ some amount of occam).


Physics is the best way to describe one aspect of reality, but it is  
an emergent structure from the (highly redundant and structured) set  
of all computations (in Turing sense and thus pure arithmetical  
objects).


Bruno








Citeren chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com:


Hi Saibal

No I don't need to invoke morality, the price I pay for that is  
to have

to explain explicity what I mean by a good outcome, what measure I
choose here to determine this, etc.

Saibal, by using the terms 'good'/'bad' and 'right'/'wrong' you can  
not help but invoke morality because that is the language of  
morality. And we are able to see what standard of morality you are  
invoking by examining your justifications.


You are a consequentialist. You assess the rightness/wrongness of  
supporting Nazis by balancing outcomes. You judge 9/11 to have been  
good or bad because of the outcomes it had for x,y,z. This is  
consequentialism and it is a moral perspective. You don't escape  
that fact by also claiming you have no time for morality, all that  
does is reveal you to be inconsistent.


9/11 was a good thing to have happened, despite the perpetrators not
having good intentions, i.e. the perpetrators of 9/11 wanted to
achieve something that I would not have preferred. You are invoking  
the

concept of moral quality of an act, not me.

No, Saibal you invoke the moral quality of the act by describing it  
as a good thing. What else do you think your doing by describing  
something as a 'good'? Having a cup of tea? The fact that the  
intentions of the perpetrators plays no role in your judgement is  
paradigmatic of the teleological nature of consequentialism. One of  
the many reasons so many people find that kind of reasoning  
unconvincing and shallow.



Moral philosophy???. Well, I consider philosophy to be  
pseudoscience,
I already told you what I think about morality, so I don't have to  
tell

you what I think about moral philosophy.


I'm assuming that you are using 'pseudoscience' pejoratively here  
which is  silly coming from someone who believes in multiple  
realities which amount to a bunch of subjectively calculated sums.


But the truth is that philosophy isn't even close to being a  
pseudoscience. Philosophy is all very 'meta' and exists to draw out  
the flaws in reasoning we all engage in. I'm going to ignore your  
disdain for philosophy, mate, because it is too embarrassing to  
watch people who engage in little else besides pseudoscience and  
metaphysics shoot themselves in the foot. :)


Morality in previous centuries has been invoked to justify the  
burning

of people at the Stake for blasphemy, no one at the time argued that
this was immoral based on a reading of all those philosophers. 

Rubbish. Take slavery : for a long time justified by teleological  
claims that the suffering of the few was outweighed by the benefits  
for the many it was eventually over thrown by deontological  
concerns about the sanctity of self determination. And of course  
people did argue that slavery was immoral. Of course people did  
argue that burning people at the stake was immoral. And it was  
precisely because people did engage in moral philosophy and those  
ideas dissipated into society that we are now at a point where we  
can argue about the morality of eating a cow and can take it as  
given that torture is wrong.



John is a good example, he doesn't read past the first sentence  
when I

wrote hat 9/11 was a good thing to have happend,

Well I did read past the first sentence, but I needn't have. Look,  
if the gears in your brain are grinding away and delivering up  
moral statements like '9/11 was a good thing' then its time to  
visit the brain mechanic for a moral m.o.t. Maybe, if you really  
fancy yourself as a moral nihilist, then change the gaskets and  
abandon the use of moral terminology. Compare:


Supporting the Nazis was useful for the Arabs way back when

with

Supporting the Nazis was the right thing to do way back when

Do you see the difference?

I think having a go at people for taking you at your word is foolish.

All the best.


Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2013 03:07:46 +0200
From: smi...@zonnet.nl
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

Chris,

No I don't need to invoke morality, the price I pay for that is to  
have

to explain explicity what I mean by a good outcome, what measure I
choose here to determine this, etc.

9/11 was a good thing to have happened, despite the perpetrators not
having good intentions, i.e. the perpetrators of 9/11 wanted to
achieve something that I would not have preferred. You are  
invoking the

concept of moral quality of an act, not me

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-29 Thread John Clark
Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I am just asking you to acknowledge you were incorrect in characterizing
 the popular and democratically elected leaders of sovereign states as two
 bit leaders.


Would you prefer a Banana Republic Leaders? In Iran in 1953 women, half
the human race, were not allowed to hold office or even vote, but today the
elected officials accurately carry out the wishes of the majority of their
superstitious constituents. And that is why Iran is such a hellhole,
imprisoning people for naming their Teddy Bear Mohamed, forcing young
girls to undergo genital mutilation, and making woman wear the equivalent
of a hazmat suit 24/7.

How about this, in the future I promise to give such democratically elected
leaders all the respect they deserve.

 You have acknowledged that you were in fact incorrect


Where the hell did I do that??


  I am going to have to disagree with your peonage to the fascist regime
 of the Pavlavi family dynasty; don't think it was a good thing to install
 that brutal fascist regime and associate our country with all the
 repression, torture and killing that the Savak  - the Sha's secret police
 -- engaged in.


Oh the Shah was a brutal monster no doubt about it, but he didn't murder
significantly more of his own people than the typical leader of a Islamic
country, and he was a pussycat compared to the leaders of Iraq or Syria or
Indonesia. Most important of all from the CIA's point of view he didn't try
to push the rest of the world back into the ninth century.


  The 1979 revolution in Iran has roots that can be convincingly traced
 back to that earlier CIA backed coup


It was a very bad thing that in 1979 a bunch of loonies took over Iran who
were so stupid that they actually took the imbecilic teachings of the
Islamic religion seriously, but it would have been even worse if they
became boss in 1953; at least from 1953 to 1979 the human misery caused by
that mind virus was largely confined to the borders of Iran. But is the
world really a better place because of the CIA's action 60 years ago, would
the Islamic revolution really have happened in 1953 not 1979 without their
intervention? I think it probable that it would have but I could be wrong
and reasonable men can disagree about this. But I do not think a reasonable
person can say that the world is a better place because of 911, nor that
the world is a better place because the Arabs supported Hitler, in fact I
think such a person, and anybody who fails to denounce him (and I'm looking
at you Chris) has all the morality and intelligence of a baboon in heat.


 To my mind if something is democratic that does not automatically mean
 it occupies the moral high ground. Hitler gained power legally, and a
 recent opinion poll showed that 64% of the Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan
 think the death penalty should be invoked for anyone who leaves Islam, and
 in Afghanistan 78% think so.  And in Iraq andAfghanistan 60% think that
 the killing of female family members by men should be legal if the women
 sully the family honor. Would you really be upset if somebody prevented
 these democratic practices from being implemented? I wouldn't be.


  Are you trying to say that it was the correct and moral course of action
 to overthrow these two democratically elected leaders and then to support
 the fascist regimes that we installed in their place?


I'm saying that being democratic and being moral are not the same thing,
I'm saying that replacing a evil democratic regime which exports grief
worldwide with a evil fascist regime that just torments its own people is
probably a very good idea, or at least a better idea than doing nothing. It
worked pretty well in Iran for 26 years, and may have been the best worst
decision.

  John K Clark









   *
 *




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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-29 Thread spudboy100
So very true. During that time we had the Black Plague (1st of 4) and even 
before this we had the start of the Little Ice Age, which caused starvation, 
and weakend the populations of Asia, Africa, and Europe (hunger produces 
children with weaker immune systems) and again a high death rate. Perhaps 
25%-33% of the continent. It was a time of calamities-human and otherwise.


And yet the greatest mass murderer of all history remains Genghis Khan… lest we 
forget. The Mongol hordes of Genghis Khan murdered so many people that there 
was a corresponding measurable drop in humanities global carbon footprint, 
because so many people were wiped out that huge areas reverted back to forest 
because there was no one to farm the land. Human brutality to other humans (and 
our planet) has a long and bloody history, and the champion genocidalist (if I 
may coin the word) of all time committed his crimes more than 800 years ago, 
and without modern technology. 
-Chris





-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Aug 27, 2013 12:34 pm
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood



And yet the greatest mass murderer of all history remains Genghis Khan… lest we 
forget. The Mongol hordes of Genghis Khan murdered so many people that there 
was a corresponding measurable drop in humanities global carbon footprint, 
because so many people were wiped out that huge areas reverted back to forest 
because there was no one to farm the land. Human brutality to other humans (and 
our planet) has a long and bloody history, and the champion genocidalist (if I 
may coin the word) of all time committed his crimes more than 800 years ago, 
and without modern technology. 
-Chris
 
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 4:29 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
 

As someone who voted for Al Gore in 2000 (he liked hydrogen cars, what can I 
say?) I don't believe it was corruption that won Bush jr. his election, but the 
idiocies of the electoral process. Hanging chads or accusations of Deibold 
voting machines not withstanding. Democracy, is not a thing most Muslims seem 
to like, or like the communists and the Nazis, appear to see it as a stepping 
stone to power and what they wanted in its ultimate form. What most governments 
today are not Republics-although the voting methods still are, we are 
corporatist governments. Corporatism is not just corporations, but something 
else. Please view Wikipedia's corporatism article its splendid because its 
informative. 

 

What is lacking from this forum/thread is the awareness of the perfidies of 
socialism, as well as capitalism-a one way street. If we want to lambast 
capitalists for mass murder (and you guys do!) the look no further than 
Belgium's rubber plantations in central Africa. (sorry Bruno!) where 8 million 
Africans were worked to death, because of incentives offered by the Belgian 
government at the time-an incredible history there. Finally, the Nazis couldn't 
have gained power without the German communists cooperation with the SA, where 
as they began to stage street battles SA v. the Red Scarves in order to 
undermine Weimar, as being ineffective to make the streets safe.

 

For an intense look at the Nazi-Soviet ear, please consider reading Tim 
Snyder's The Bloodlands-Between Stalin and Hitler. Siding with totalitarian Al 
Qaeda, is also foolish, as their goals are Sharia Law worldwide. Secondly even 
is Saibal's   view is accurate (attack the military only) it wound up have the 
US push the Taleban from power, and the wars in the middle east gather so many 
fanatical jihadists there that it was a magnet for their destruction 
(unintentionally) because the US and Nato forces turned many of them into 
non-combative corpses-reducing the jihadist troops. Under Obama, with his 
policies-their fortunes have reversed. I am guessing they are planning some 
nasty surprises for the US, which will no doubt make Smitra all jolly.  

-Original Message-
From: chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 8:22 pm
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood


corruption in politics (US elections 2000) is good in hind sight because it led 
to democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq.

or one more up Saibal's street:

In hind sight the end of the Raj was a bad thing because it led to the 
partition of India and Pakistan, wars over Kashmir and nuclear friction.

There must be loads of counter-intuitive and flame worthy comments that can be 
rendered using Saibal's hokey logic.

We should give some monkeys typewriters and throw a banana to the ape that 
generates the best one.

all the best.


Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 15:01:27 -0700
From

RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-28 Thread smitra
From: smi...@zonnet.nl
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

Chris,

No I don't need to invoke morality, the price I pay for that is to have
to explain explicity what I mean by a good outcome, what measure I
choose here to determine this, etc.

9/11 was a good thing to have happened, despite the perpetrators not
having good intentions, i.e. the perpetrators of 9/11 wanted to
achieve something that I would not have preferred. You are invoking the
concept of moral quality of an act, not me.


Moral philosophy???. Well, I consider philosophy to be pseudoscience,
I already told you what I think about morality, so I don't have to tell
you what I think about moral philosophy.

Morality in previous centuries has been invoked to justify the burning
of people at the Stake for blasphemy, no one at the time argued that
this was immoral based on a reading of all those philosophers. So,
it's of no use other than to condemn people we don't like. Not invoking
morality will force you to use rational arguments.

John is a good example, he doesn't read past the first sentence when I
wrote hat 9/11 was a good thing to have happend, because he has
programmed a concept of morality in his brain to create a mental
block in such a case. Whatever explanation I give has to be wrong
because his sense of morality (which he can't expand on), tells him
so.

Saibal


Citeren chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com:

 Hi Saibal

 When you say something is good you have some concept of morality in
 mind whether you like it or not. Otherwise comments like 'this is
 good' or 'that is good' are meaningless gibberish. In your case it is
 very obviously consequentialism you have in mind because you are
 attempting to balance outcomes in order to quantify the moral quality
 of an act. Typically the fact an event like 9/11 can, through some
 specious reasoning, be equated to a 'good' has been regarded as a
 reason to abandon  the kind of reasoning you are fumbling with. But I
 suspect you are too stubborn to acknowledge a few thousand years of
 moral philosophy and rather than stand on the shoulders of giants
 prefer to swill around in the gutter. This is why John is right to
 call you an ass. Your 'arguments' show no more moral wit than a
 donkey.

 --- Original Message ---

 From: smi...@zonnet.nl
 Sent: 28 August 2013 6:14 AM
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 Morality is an ill defined concept, you can just as well invoke
 religion. I never appeal to any notion of morality, when I say that
 something is good, then I have some specific outcome in mind. I think
 I did explain that.


 An alien visiting the Earth may well conclude that the right thing to
 do is to exterminate all humans from the face of the Earth, citing the
 damage we do to the environment and the fact that we are not going to
 be persuaded to change our ways. From an animal life conservation point
 of view that decision can be argued to be the right decision.



 Citeren John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 A professional ass who goes by the pseudonym smi...@zonnet.nl because
 he's understandably too embarrassed to give his real name wrote:

 The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the
 U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of [blah blah]


 Dear Mr. Ass

 Once somebody knows that you said supporting the Nazis was the 
right thing
 for the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a good 
thing, why on
 earth would anybody who was not drooling and locked inside a 
rubber room be

 interested in your opinion of the morality of ANYTHING?

  John K Clark


 **

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-28 Thread chris peck
Hi Saibal

This is why physics and not philosophy is the best way to 
describe the world.

For sure, I couldn't agree with you more. Philosophy is rubbish at describing 
the world. You should check out Plato and Plontinus if you really want a laugh. 
Wierdly though, their ideas were really sticky and even now there are some 
academics who argue reality is all just forms, sums and numbers. What a bunch 
of wackos, right?

But Physics is also crap at describing the world. Its always been wrong. Even 
now its wrong, none of it fits together properly. But get this... rather than 
go back to first principles, some physicists run with it.  So that you get 
these physicists publishing papers claiming that rather than this happening 
or that happening in fact everything happens in separate subjective branches of 
the arithmetic multi-bubble or whatever. 

I can already hear you shouting: 'What a load of unfalsifiable pseudo 
scientific hogwash!', right?

All the best.

 Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:24:27 +0200
 From: smi...@zonnet.nl
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
 
 Hi Chris,
 
 you are saying that:
 
 No, Saibal you invoke the moral quality of the act by describing it as 
 a good thing
 
 But this is exactly why I want to avoid this whole morality thing, it 
 comes with a baggage that then implies things that I don't support. I 
 can think that 9/11 was a good thing to have happened while at the same 
 time think that 99/11 was motivated by people with very bad motives. A 
 horrible event can also later turn out to have been a very good thing 
 to have happened.
 
 It seems to me that framing things in terms of morality, arguing that I 
 support consequentialism is all besides the point. I don't support 
 consequentialism it only looks that way because you are considering 
 what I'm saying in terms of morality when that concept doesn't apply.
 
 Look there may well be something useful in philosophy, like what you 
 write about preventing flawed reasoning. But philosophy has been pretty 
 bad at preventing ill defined baggage being inntroduced and made part 
 of arguments. This is why physics and not philosophy is the best way to 
 describe the world.
 
 Saibal
 
 
 
 Citeren chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com:
 
  Hi Saibal
 
  No I don't need to invoke morality, the price I pay for that is to have
  to explain explicity what I mean by a good outcome, what measure I
  choose here to determine this, etc.
 
  Saibal, by using the terms 'good'/'bad' and 'right'/'wrong' you can 
  not help but invoke morality because that is the language of 
  morality. And we are able to see what standard of morality you are 
  invoking by examining your justifications.
 
  You are a consequentialist. You assess the rightness/wrongness of 
  supporting Nazis by balancing outcomes. You judge 9/11 to have been 
  good or bad because of the outcomes it had for x,y,z. This is 
  consequentialism and it is a moral perspective. You don't escape that 
  fact by also claiming you have no time for morality, all that does is 
  reveal you to be inconsistent.
 
  9/11 was a good thing to have happened, despite the perpetrators not
  having good intentions, i.e. the perpetrators of 9/11 wanted to
  achieve something that I would not have preferred. You are invoking the
  concept of moral quality of an act, not me.
 
  No, Saibal you invoke the moral quality of the act by describing it 
  as a good thing. What else do you think your doing by describing 
  something as a 'good'? Having a cup of tea? The fact that the 
  intentions of the perpetrators plays no role in your judgement is 
  paradigmatic of the teleological nature of consequentialism. One of 
  the many reasons so many people find that kind of reasoning 
  unconvincing and shallow.
 
 
  Moral philosophy???. Well, I consider philosophy to be pseudoscience,
  I already told you what I think about morality, so I don't have to tell
  you what I think about moral philosophy.
 
 
  I'm assuming that you are using 'pseudoscience' pejoratively here 
  which is  silly coming from someone who believes in multiple 
  realities which amount to a bunch of subjectively calculated sums.
 
  But the truth is that philosophy isn't even close to being a 
  pseudoscience. Philosophy is all very 'meta' and exists to draw out 
  the flaws in reasoning we all engage in. I'm going to ignore your 
  disdain for philosophy, mate, because it is too embarrassing to watch 
  people who engage in little else besides pseudoscience and 
  metaphysics shoot themselves in the foot. :)
 
  Morality in previous centuries has been invoked to justify the burning
  of people at the Stake for blasphemy, no one at the time argued that
  this was immoral based on a reading of all those philosophers. 
 
  Rubbish. Take slavery : for a long time justified by teleological 
  claims that the suffering of the few was outweighed by the benefits 
  for the many

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-27 Thread spudboy100

As someone who voted for Al Gore in 2000 (he liked hydrogen cars, what can I 
say?) I don't believe it was corruption that won Bush jr. his election, but the 
idiocies of the electoral process. Hanging chads or accusations of Deibold 
voting machines not withstanding. Democracy, is not a thing most Muslims seem 
to like, or like the communists and the Nazis, appear to see it as a stepping 
stone to power and what they wanted in its ultimate form. What most governments 
today are not Republics-although the voting methods still are, we are 
corporatist governments. Corporatism is not just corporations, but something 
else. Please view Wikipedia's corporatism article its splendid because its 
informative. 

What is lacking from this forum/thread is the awareness of the perfidies of 
socialism, as well as capitalism-a one way street. If we want to lambast 
capitalists for mass murder (and you guys do!) the look no further than 
Belgium's rubber plantations in central Africa. (sorry Bruno!) where 8 million 
Africans were worked to death, because of incentives offered by the Belgian 
government at the time-an incredible history there. Finally, the Nazis couldn't 
have gained power without the German communists cooperation with the SA, where 
as they began to stage street battles SA v. the Red Scarves in order to 
undermine Weimar, as being ineffective to make the streets safe.

For an intense look at the Nazi-Soviet ear, please consider reading Tim 
Snyder's The Bloodlands-Between Stalin and Hitler. Siding with totalitarian Al 
Qaeda, is also foolish, as their goals are Sharia Law worldwide. Secondly even 
is Saibal's   view is accurate (attack the military only) it wound up have the 
US push the Taleban from power, and the wars in the middle east gather so many 
fanatical jihadists there that it was a magnet for their destruction 
(unintentionally) because the US and Nato forces turned many of them into 
non-combative corpses-reducing the jihadist troops. Under Obama, with his 
policies-their fortunes have reversed. I am guessing they are planning some 
nasty surprises for the US, which will no doubt make Smitra all jolly.  


-Original Message-
From: chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 8:22 pm
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood



corruption in politics (US elections 2000) is good in hind sight because it led 
to democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq.

or one more up Saibal's street:

In hind sight the end of the Raj was a bad thing because it led to the 
partition of India and Pakistan, wars over Kashmir and nuclear friction.

There must be loads of counter-intuitive and flame worthy comments that can be 
rendered using Saibal's hokey logic.

We should give some monkeys typewriters and throw a banana to the ape that 
generates the best one.

all the best.



Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 15:01:27 -0700
From: meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

  
On 8/25/2013 9:36 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl  wrote:


If I think that: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing  to have happened, 
it ended up exposing the fascist Neo-Cons for  what they were.

That's sort of like  saying it's good that the Nazi's killed all those 
people in death  camps because that exposed what a dangerous philosophy of  
government Nazism is.
  
  Brent
  
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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-27 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote:

  I was correcting your mischaracterization of two democratically elected
 and popular leaders who were overthrown in bloody CIA backed coups and
 replaced by fascist dictators

Yes Chris, the CIA staged those coups, but some countries violently change
their brutal 2 bit tin horn dictators with a new brutal 2 bit tin horn
dictator more often than I change my underwear, so its a little hard for me
to get all weepy about it; particularly when placed in the perspective (as
I did in my post) of the tens of millions of there own people that the
communists have murdered. As for IRAN I think the CIA probably did a good
thing in 1953, yes it placed the country in the hands of a brutal 2 bit
dictator, but from 1953 to 1979 it probably prevented the country from
falling into the hands of brutal 2 bit dictators who were driven by their
imbecilic religion to push their country back into the ninth century.

Of course a lot of this is supposition, we'll never know for sure what the
world would be like today if the CIA had not been involved in those coups;
but I do know that even if what they did wasn't right it was little more
than being mischievous compared with the horrors committed by Lenin or
Stalin or Mao Zedong or Kim Ll-sung or Mr. Ass's favorite, Hitler.

 

  You had mischaracterized these two popularly elected heads of state as
 2-bit leaders. I find that to be a strange choice of words to describe a
 democratically elected head of state.

To my mind if something is democratic that does not automatically mean it
occupies the moral high ground. Hitler gained power legally, and a recent
opinion poll showed that 64% of the Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan think the
death penalty should be invoked for anyone who leaves Islam, and in
Afghanistan 78% think so.  And in Iraq andAfghanistan 60% think that
the killing of female family members by men should be legal if the women
sully the family honor. Would you really be upset if somebody prevented
these democratic practices from being implemented? I wouldn't be.

  John -- Not interested in placing any more wear and tear on your brain.

Thank you, but I'm concerned that you ignored my question.

  Either we discuss or we don’t.

Before we can talk more about moral issues I need you to answer the
question I asked you in my last post,  because discussing matters of
morality with somebody who makes excuses for a creature who says
supporting the Nazis was the right thing for the Arabs back then and I
believe that 9/11 was a good thing would be like debating with a baboon
over the correct way to solve a problem in Calculus. And I have better ways
to allocate my time than that.

  John K Clark

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-27 Thread Chris de Morsella
And yet the greatest mass murderer of all history remains Genghis Khan. lest
we forget. The Mongol hordes of Genghis Khan murdered so many people that
there was a corresponding measurable drop in humanities global carbon
footprint, because so many people were wiped out that huge areas reverted
back to forest because there was no one to farm the land. Human brutality to
other humans (and our planet) has a long and bloody history, and the
champion genocidalist (if I may coin the word) of all time committed his
crimes more than 800 years ago, and without modern technology. 

-Chris

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 4:29 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

As someone who voted for Al Gore in 2000 (he liked hydrogen cars, what can I
say?) I don't believe it was corruption that won Bush jr. his election, but
the idiocies of the electoral process. Hanging chads or accusations of
Deibold voting machines not withstanding. Democracy, is not a thing most
Muslims seem to like, or like the communists and the Nazis, appear to see it
as a stepping stone to power and what they wanted in its ultimate form. What
most governments today are not Republics-although the voting methods still
are, we are corporatist governments. Corporatism is not just corporations,
but something else. Please view Wikipedia's corporatism article its
splendid because its informative. 

 

What is lacking from this forum/thread is the awareness of the perfidies of
socialism, as well as capitalism-a one way street. If we want to lambast
capitalists for mass murder (and you guys do!) the look no further than
Belgium's rubber plantations in central Africa. (sorry Bruno!) where 8
million Africans were worked to death, because of incentives offered by the
Belgian government at the time-an incredible history there. Finally, the
Nazis couldn't have gained power without the German communists cooperation
with the SA, where as they began to stage street battles SA v. the Red
Scarves in order to undermine Weimar, as being ineffective to make the
streets safe.

 

For an intense look at the Nazi-Soviet ear, please consider reading Tim
Snyder's The Bloodlands-Between Stalin and Hitler. Siding with totalitarian
Al Qaeda, is also foolish, as their goals are Sharia Law worldwide. Secondly
even is Saibal's   view is accurate (attack the military only) it wound up
have the US push the Taleban from power, and the wars in the middle east
gather so many fanatical jihadists there that it was a magnet for their
destruction (unintentionally) because the US and Nato forces turned many of
them into non-combative corpses-reducing the jihadist troops. Under Obama,
with his policies-their fortunes have reversed. I am guessing they are
planning some nasty surprises for the US, which will no doubt make Smitra
all jolly.  

-Original Message-
From: chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 8:22 pm
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

corruption in politics (US elections 2000) is good in hind sight because it
led to democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq.

or one more up Saibal's street:

In hind sight the end of the Raj was a bad thing because it led to the
partition of India and Pakistan, wars over Kashmir and nuclear friction.

There must be loads of counter-intuitive and flame worthy comments that can
be rendered using Saibal's hokey logic.

We should give some monkeys typewriters and throw a banana to the ape that
generates the best one.

all the best.

  _  

Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 15:01:27 -0700
From: meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

On 8/25/2013 9:36 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:

If I think that: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened, it
ended up exposing the fascist Neo-Cons for what they were.


That's sort of like saying it's good that the Nazi's killed all those people
in death camps because that exposed what a dangerous philosophy of
government Nazism is.

Brent

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-27 Thread smitra

Citeren meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:


On 8/25/2013 9:36 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
If I think that: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have 
happened, it ended up exposing the fascist Neo-Cons for what they 
were.


That's sort of like saying it's good that the Nazi's killed all those 
people in death camps because that exposed what a dangerous 
philosophy of government Nazism is.


Brent



It depends on how the two scenarios one would assume where it happened 
and did not happen. I believe that 9/11 led the US to commit mistakes 
that were seen to be mistakes by a large fraction of the US population. 
Had 9/11 not happened, the US would have evolved more gradually in the 
Neo-Con direction but then that would have had far greater acceptance 
from the US public.


Saibal

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-27 Thread smitra
Morality is an ill defined concept, you can just as well invoke 
religion. I never appeal to any notion of morality, when I say that 
something is good, then I have some specific outcome in mind. I think 
I did explain that.



An alien visiting the Earth may well conclude that the right thing to 
do is to exterminate all humans from the face of the Earth, citing the 
damage we do to the environment and the fact that we are not going to 
be persuaded to change our ways. From an animal life conservation point 
of view that decision can be argued to be the right decision.




Citeren John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:


A professional ass who goes by the pseudonym smi...@zonnet.nl because
he's understandably too embarrassed to give his real name wrote:


The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the
U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of [blah blah]



Dear Mr. Ass

Once somebody knows that you said supporting the Nazis was the right thing
for the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, why on
earth would anybody who was not drooling and locked inside a rubber room be
interested in your opinion of the morality of ANYTHING?

 John K Clark


**

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-27 Thread freqflyer07281972

 And I have better ways to allocate my time than that. 

Coming from a cuckoo clock/roulette wheel... LOL. 

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-27 Thread chris peck
Hi Saibal

When you say something is good you have some concept of morality in mind 
whether you like it or not. Otherwise comments like 'this is good' or 'that is 
good' are meaningless gibberish. In your case it is very obviously 
consequentialism you have in mind because you are attempting to balance 
outcomes in order to quantify the moral quality of an act. Typically the fact 
an event like 9/11 can, through some specious reasoning, be equated to a 'good' 
has been regarded as a reason to abandon  the kind of reasoning you are 
fumbling with. But I suspect you are too stubborn to acknowledge a few thousand 
years of moral philosophy and rather than stand on the shoulders of giants 
prefer to swill around in the gutter. This is why John is right to call you an 
ass. Your 'arguments' show no more moral wit than a donkey.

--- Original Message ---

From: smi...@zonnet.nl
Sent: 28 August 2013 6:14 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

Morality is an ill defined concept, you can just as well invoke
religion. I never appeal to any notion of morality, when I say that
something is good, then I have some specific outcome in mind. I think
I did explain that.


An alien visiting the Earth may well conclude that the right thing to
do is to exterminate all humans from the face of the Earth, citing the
damage we do to the environment and the fact that we are not going to
be persuaded to change our ways. From an animal life conservation point
of view that decision can be argued to be the right decision.



Citeren John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 A professional ass who goes by the pseudonym smi...@zonnet.nl because
 he's understandably too embarrassed to give his real name wrote:

 The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the
 U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of [blah blah]


 Dear Mr. Ass

 Once somebody knows that you said supporting the Nazis was the right thing
 for the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, why on
 earth would anybody who was not drooling and locked inside a rubber room be
 interested in your opinion of the morality of ANYTHING?

  John K Clark


 **

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-27 Thread Chris de Morsella

 


 From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com
   


On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I was correcting your mischaracterization of two democratically elected and 
 popular leaders who were overthrown in bloody CIA backed coups and replaced 
 by fascist dictators 

 Yes Chris, the CIA staged those coups, but some countries violently change 
 their brutal 2 bit tin horn dictators with a new brutal 2 bit tin horn 
 dictator more often than I change my underwear, so its a little hard for me 
 to get all weepy about it; particularly when placed in the perspective (as I 
 did in my post) of the tens of millions of there own people that the 
 communists have murdered. As for IRAN I think the CIA probably did a good 
 thing in 1953, yes it placed the country in the hands of a brutal 2 bit 
 dictator, but from 1953 to 1979 it probably prevented the country from 
 falling into the hands of brutal 2 bit dictators who were driven by their 
 imbecilic religion to push their country back into the ninth century.

I truly hope you change your underwear more often than countries change 
regimes... for all concerned. Did I ask you to get weepy? I am just asking you 
to acknowledge you were incorrect in characterizing the popular and 
democratically elected leaders of sovereign states 
as two bit leaders. You have acknowledged that you were in fact incorrect and 
that is all I care that you do. Whether you want to get all weepy is your own 
concern not mine.
I am going to have to disagree with your peonage to the fascist regime of the 
Pavlavi family dynasty; don't think it was a good thing to install that brutal 
fascist regime and associate our country with all the repression, torture and 
killing that the Savak  - the Sha's secret police -- engaged in.  In fact I 
think you are completely wrong. The 1979 revolution in Iran has roots that can 
be convincingly traced back to that earlier CIA backed coup (instigated by the 
way by British Petroleum that had been enjoying 90% take on the sale of Iranian 
oil until the democratically elected government of Iran of the time 
nationalized Iranian oil reserves. It was in fact British pressure that 
involved the US in Iranian affairs in 1953.

Of course a lot of this is supposition, we'll never know for sure what the 
world would be like today if the CIA had not been involved in those coups; 
but I do know that even if what they did wasn't right it was little more than 
being mischievous compared with the horrors committed by Lenin or Stalin or 
Mao Zedong or Kim Ll-sung or Mr. Ass's favorite, Hitler.

Correct they are just suppositions.
 
 You had mischaracterized these two popularly elected heads of state as 2-bit 
 leaders. I find that to be a strange choice of words to describe a 
 democratically elected head of state. 
To my mind if something is democratic that does not automatically mean it 
occupies the moral high ground. Hitler gained power legally, and a recent 
opinion poll showed that 64% of the Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan think the 
death penalty should be invoked for anyone who leaves Islam, and in 
Afghanistan 78% think so.  And in Iraq and    Afghanistan 60% think that the 
killing of female family members by men should be legal if the women sully 
the family honor. Would you really be upset if somebody prevented these 
democratic practices from being implemented? I wouldn't be.  

Are you trying to say that it was the correct and moral course of action to 
overthrow these two democratically elected leaders and then to support the 
fascist regimes that we installed in their place?
 John -- Not interested in placing any more wear and tear on your brain. 
 Thank you, but I'm concerned that you ignored my question.

As I will continue to do if I think they are rhetorical or just plain silly.

 Either we discuss or we don’t.

Before we can talk more about moral issues I need you to answer the question 
I asked you in my last post,  because discussing matters of morality with 
somebody who makes excuses for a creature who says supporting the Nazis was 
the right thing for the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a good 
thing would be like debating with a baboon over the correct way to solve a 
problem in Calculus. And I have better ways to allocate my time than that. 

I do not respond to your imperative demands very well now do I... amazing how 
that works (or doesn't work) Allocate your time however you choose to allocate 
it. Stop dialoging with me if you must  -- I am fine with that outcome. It 
really is no skin off my back. 

Cheers,
-Chris

  John K Clark




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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-27 Thread smitra

Chris,

No I don't need to invoke morality, the price I pay for that is to have 
to explain explicity what I mean by a good outcome, what measure I 
choose here to determine this, etc.


9/11 was a good thing to have happened, despite the perpetrators not 
having good intentions, i.e. the perpetrators of 9/11 wanted to 
achieve something that I would not have preferred. You are invoking the 
concept of moral quality of an act, not me.



Moral philosophy???. Well, I consider philosophy to be pseudoscience, 
I already told you what I think about morality, so I don't have to tell 
you what I think about moral philosophy.


Morality in previous centuries has been invoked to justify the burning 
of people at the Stake for blasphemy, no one at the time argued that 
this was immoral based on a reading of all those philosophers. So, 
it's of no use other than to condemn people we don't like. Not invoking 
morality will force you to use rational arguments.


John is a good example, he doesn't read past the first sentence when I 
wrote hat 9/11 was a good thing to have happend, because he has 
programmed a concept of morality in his brain to create a mental 
block in such a case. Whatever explanation I give has to be wrong 
because his sense of morality (which he can't expand on), tells him 
so.


Saibal


Citeren chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com:


Hi Saibal

When you say something is good you have some concept of morality in 
mind whether you like it or not. Otherwise comments like 'this is 
good' or 'that is good' are meaningless gibberish. In your case it is 
very obviously consequentialism you have in mind because you are 
attempting to balance outcomes in order to quantify the moral quality 
of an act. Typically the fact an event like 9/11 can, through some 
specious reasoning, be equated to a 'good' has been regarded as a 
reason to abandon  the kind of reasoning you are fumbling with. But I 
suspect you are too stubborn to acknowledge a few thousand years of 
moral philosophy and rather than stand on the shoulders of giants 
prefer to swill around in the gutter. This is why John is right to 
call you an ass. Your 'arguments' show no more moral wit than a 
donkey.


--- Original Message ---

From: smi...@zonnet.nl
Sent: 28 August 2013 6:14 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

Morality is an ill defined concept, you can just as well invoke
religion. I never appeal to any notion of morality, when I say that
something is good, then I have some specific outcome in mind. I think
I did explain that.


An alien visiting the Earth may well conclude that the right thing to
do is to exterminate all humans from the face of the Earth, citing the
damage we do to the environment and the fact that we are not going to
be persuaded to change our ways. From an animal life conservation point
of view that decision can be argued to be the right decision.



Citeren John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:


A professional ass who goes by the pseudonym smi...@zonnet.nl because
he's understandably too embarrassed to give his real name wrote:


The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the
U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of [blah blah]



Dear Mr. Ass

Once somebody knows that you said supporting the Nazis was the right thing
for the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, why on
earth would anybody who was not drooling and locked inside a rubber room be
interested in your opinion of the morality of ANYTHING?

 John K Clark


**

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-27 Thread chris peck
Hi Saibal

 No I don't need to invoke morality, the price I pay for that is to have 
to explain explicity what I mean by a good outcome, what measure I 
choose here to determine this, etc.

Saibal, by using the terms 'good'/'bad' and 'right'/'wrong' you can not help 
but invoke morality because that is the language of morality. And we are able 
to see what standard of morality you are invoking by examining your 
justifications. 

You are a consequentialist. You assess the rightness/wrongness of supporting 
Nazis by balancing outcomes. You judge 9/11 to have been good or bad because of 
the outcomes it had for x,y,z. This is consequentialism and it is a moral 
perspective. You don't escape that fact by also claiming you have no time for 
morality, all that does is reveal you to be inconsistent.

9/11 was a good thing to have happened, despite the perpetrators not 
having good intentions, i.e. the perpetrators of 9/11 wanted to 
achieve something that I would not have preferred. You are invoking the 
concept of moral quality of an act, not me.

No, Saibal you invoke the moral quality of the act by describing it as a good 
thing. What else do you think your doing by describing something as a 'good'? 
Having a cup of tea? The fact that the intentions of the perpetrators plays no 
role in your judgement is paradigmatic of the teleological nature of 
consequentialism. One of the many reasons so many people find that kind of 
reasoning unconvincing and shallow.
 
 
Moral philosophy???. Well, I consider philosophy to be pseudoscience, 
I already told you what I think about morality, so I don't have to tell 
you what I think about moral philosophy.


I'm assuming that you are using 'pseudoscience' pejoratively here which is  
silly coming from someone who believes in multiple realities which amount to a 
bunch of subjectively calculated sums. 

But the truth is that philosophy isn't even close to being a pseudoscience. 
Philosophy is all very 'meta' and exists to draw out the flaws in reasoning we 
all engage in. I'm going to ignore your disdain for philosophy, mate, because 
it is too embarrassing to watch people who engage in little else besides 
pseudoscience and metaphysics shoot themselves in the foot. :)

Morality in previous centuries has been invoked to justify the burning 
of people at the Stake for blasphemy, no one at the time argued that 
this was immoral based on a reading of all those philosophers. 

Rubbish. Take slavery : for a long time justified by teleological claims that 
the suffering of the few was outweighed by the benefits for the many it was 
eventually over thrown by deontological concerns about the sanctity of self 
determination. And of course people did argue that slavery was immoral. Of 
course people did argue that burning people at the stake was immoral. And it 
was precisely because people did engage in moral philosophy and those ideas 
dissipated into society that we are now at a point where we can argue about the 
morality of eating a cow and can take it as given that torture is wrong. 


John is a good example, he doesn't read past the first sentence when I 
wrote hat 9/11 was a good thing to have happend,

Well I did read past the first sentence, but I needn't have. Look, if the gears 
in your brain are grinding away and delivering up moral statements like '9/11 
was a good thing' then its time to visit the brain mechanic for a moral m.o.t. 
Maybe, if you really fancy yourself as a moral nihilist, then change the 
gaskets and abandon the use of moral terminology. Compare:

 Supporting the Nazis was useful for the Arabs way back when  

 with 

 Supporting the Nazis was the right thing to do way back when

 Do you see the difference?

 I think having a go at people for taking you at your word is foolish.

All the best.

 Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2013 03:07:46 +0200
 From: smi...@zonnet.nl
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
 
 Chris,
 
 No I don't need to invoke morality, the price I pay for that is to have 
 to explain explicity what I mean by a good outcome, what measure I 
 choose here to determine this, etc.
 
 9/11 was a good thing to have happened, despite the perpetrators not 
 having good intentions, i.e. the perpetrators of 9/11 wanted to 
 achieve something that I would not have preferred. You are invoking the 
 concept of moral quality of an act, not me.
 
 
 Moral philosophy???. Well, I consider philosophy to be pseudoscience, 
 I already told you what I think about morality, so I don't have to tell 
 you what I think about moral philosophy.
 
 Morality in previous centuries has been invoked to justify the burning 
 of people at the Stake for blasphemy, no one at the time argued that 
 this was immoral based on a reading of all those philosophers. So, 
 it's of no use other than to condemn people we don't like. Not invoking 
 morality will force you to use rational arguments.
 
 John is a good example, he doesn't

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-26 Thread John Clark
A professional ass who goes by the pseudonym smi...@zonnet.nl because
he's understandably too embarrassed to give his real name wrote:

  Agree or disagree with me, but it's something that can be debated.


Dear Mr. Ass

I'm a bit confused by your use of the word debated. In your previous post
you proved your expertise in the art of copying and pasting stuff from the
internet that you found on Google, and by saying supporting the Nazis was
the right thing for the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a
good thing you proved your expertise in the art of being a self
righteous moral
imbecile, but I didn't see any debating.
**

  You, on the other hand, are an ideologue


Yes, my ideology is that supporting the Nazis was NOT the right thing for
the Arabs back then, and my ideology is that
9/11 was NOT a good thing. And my ideology is that anybody who says such
things can not be a good person. And my ideology is that anybody who sits
at the feet of such a degenerate cretin and listens with respect while he
pontificates about morality can not be a good person either.

 who is not capable of reading past the first sentence


You are absolutely correct, I will not continue reading if the post is a
critique of the morality of various historical events and the first
sentence is supporting the Nazis was the right thing for the Arabs back
then or I believe that 9/11 was a good thing. I will not continue
reading because that is equivalent to shouting at the top of your lungs
LOOK AT ME EVERYBODY, I AM A MORAL MORON.

And Mr. Ass unlike you I am not embarrassed by what I have written so I
will give my real name, it is John K Clark.

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-26 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote:

  And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in
 Chile and Iran, big deal.

  John you are either grossly ignorant of history, or squeeze it like
 toothpaste through the aperture of your ideological point of view.

Chris, before I debate the morality or lack of morality of those 2
historical events with you I need to know if I will be placing wear and
tear on my brain cells for no purpose, in short I need to know if you too
are a self righteous moral moron.  So Chris, what is your honest opinion of
the morality of somebody who says supporting the Nazis was the right thing
for the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a good thing?

  John K Clark

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-26 Thread Chris de Morsella
John -- Not interested in placing any more wear and tear on your brain.
Either we discuss or we don't. I was correcting your mischaracterization of
two democratically elected and popular leaders who were overthrown in bloody
CIA backed coups and replaced by fascist dictators (one of whom had dynastic
aspirations).

You had mischaracterized these two popularly elected heads of state as 2-bit
leaders. I find that to be a strange choice of words to describe a
democratically elected head of state. And I said so. Now you could just
acknowledge that it may have not been the best way to describe them,
otherwise you risk portraying yourself as a - to use your words - self
righteous moral moron.

It's your choice really.

Oh, and I am not interested in playing the game you seem to want to play.

Have a good day,

-Chris

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 7:51 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
wrote:

 And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in
Chile and Iran, big deal.

 John you are either grossly ignorant of history, or squeeze it like
toothpaste through the aperture of your ideological point of view. 

Chris, before I debate the morality or lack of morality of those 2
historical events with you I need to know if I will be placing wear and tear
on my brain cells for no purpose, in short I need to know if you too are a
self righteous moral moron.  So Chris, what is your honest opinion of the
morality of somebody who says supporting the Nazis was the right thing for
the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a good thing?

  John K Clark

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013  smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:

 With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened,


You sir are an ass.

  John K Clark




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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread smitra
If I think that: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have 
happened, it ended up exposing the fascist Neo-Cons for what they were. 
The Neo-Con ideology was defeated on the battlegrounds of Iraq. It is 
sad that it had to happen that way with all the innocent victims in the 
US and Iraq, but I believe that the US and the rest of the World are 
today better off with these things having happened.


I'm not going to decide not to say this just because someone doesn't 
like statements to be made about 9/11 that doesn't fit in his ideology, 
who will selectively quote things out of context, point to that 
selective quote and call me an ass.




Citeren John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013  smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:


With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened,



You sir are an ass.

 John K Clark






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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 12:05 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:

 With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened


You sir are an ass.

 John K Clark

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread smitra
If I think that: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have 
happened, it ended up exposing the fascist Neo-Cons for what they were. 
The Neo-Con ideology was defeated on the battlegrounds of Iraq. It is 
sad that it had to happen that way with all the innocent victims in the 
US and Iraq, but I believe that the US and the rest of the World are 
today better off with these things having happened.


I'm not going to decide not to say this just because someone doesn't 
like statements to be made about 9/11 that doesn't fit in his ideology, 
who will selectively quote things out of context, point to that 
selective quote and call me an ass.




Citeren John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 12:05 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:


With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened



You sir are an ass.

John K Clark

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote:



 Fascism unlike Communism (at the level of lip service at least) never
 preached a Universal Fascist state – an 1000 year Reich of one tribe over
 other inferior races maybe, but that idea lacks universal appeal.


And lip service (who wouldn't want a workers paradise?) is the only reason
that today people would have far more sympathy for Senator McCarthy if he'd
gone after Neo-Nazis instead of Communists, and in general lip service is
the one and only reason Communism has always seemed more respectable than
Nazism even though it has caused at least as much misery in the world. In
the 30's Stalin murdered millions of his own people and in the 20's Lenin
forced people to abandon their private farms and go to huge corrupt
monumentally inefficient collective farms with the result that millions
died of starvation;  In the 50's Mao did the exact same stupid thing in
China in the name of communism and at least 30 million starved to death. In
the 70's in Cambodia the communists murdered a greater percentage of their
population than any regime in the history of the world. In the 90's in
North Korea, a nightmare country as bad as anything George Orwell could
dream up, communism caused two million to starve to death while South
Korea, a country with the same culture and language but without communism
became a world economic powerhouse.

And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in Chile
and Iran, big deal.

  John K Clark







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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 12:36 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:

 With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened


You sir are an ass.

  John K Clark

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread smitra

https://sites.google.com/site/faydowkerarchive2003/home/mariarosario

The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the 
U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of the democratically elected 
regime of Jacobo Arbenz in June 1954. Since that time, while Guatemala 
has remained securely within the U.S. sphere of influence, badly needed 
economic and social reforms were put off the agenda indefinitely, 
political democracy was stifled, and state terror was institutionalized 
and reached catastrophic levels in the late 1970s and early 1980s.


The U.S. establishment overthrew the Arbenz government in 1954 because 
it ...found the pluralism and democracy of the years 1945-54 
intolerable. Since that time ...not only has Guatemala gradually 
become a terrorist state rarely matched in the scale of systematic 
murder of civilians, but its terrorist proclivities have increased 
markedly at strategic moments of escalated U.S. intervention.


In 1966, a further small guerrilla movement brought the Green Berets 
and a major CI [Counter-Insurgency] war in which 10,000 people were 
killed in pursuit of three or four hundred guerrillas. It was at this 
point that the 'death squads' and 'disappearances' made their 
appearance in Guatemala. The United States brought in police training 
in the 1970s, which was followed by the further institutionalization of 
violence. The 'solution' to social problems in Guatemala, specifically 
attributable to the 1954 intervention and the form of U.S. assistance 
since that time, has been permanent state terror. With Guatemala, the 
United States invented the 'counterinsurgency state.'


During the Reagan years, the number of civilians murdered in Guatemala 
ran into the tens of thousands, and disappearances and mutilated bodies 
were a daily occurrence. Studies by Amnesty International (AI), 
Americas Watch (AW), and other human-rights monitors have documented a 
military machine run amok, with the indiscriminate killing of peasants 
(including vast numbers of women and children), the forcible relocation 
of hundreds of thousands of farmers and villagers into virtual 
concentration camps, and the enlistment of many hundreds of thousands 
in compulsory civil patrols.


The number of civilians murdered between 1978 and 1985 may have 
approached 100,000 [one-hundred thousand], with a style of killing 
reminiscent of Pol Pot. As AI [Amnesty International] pointed out in 
1981:


The bodies of the victims have been found piled up in ravines, dumped 
at roadsides or buried in mass graves. Thousands bore the scars of 
torture, and death had come to most by strangling with a garrotte, by 
being suffocated in rubber hoods or by being shot in the head.


The holocaust years 1978-85 yielded a steady stream of documents by 
human-rights groups that provided dramatic evidence of a state 
terrorism in Guatemala approaching genocidal levels. The spectacular AI 
[Amnesty International] report of 1981 on 'Disappearances: A Workbook,' 
describ[ed] a frightening development of state terrorism in the Nazi 
mold.”


Human-rights monitoring and protective agencies have had a very 
difficult time organizing and surviving in the 'death-squad 
democracies' of El Salvador and Guatemala. Between October 1980 and 
March 1983, five officials of the Human Rights Commission of El 
Salvador were seized and murdered by the security forces.


Guatemala has been even more inhospitable to human-rights 
organizations than El Salvador. Guatemalan Archbishop Monsignor 
Prospero Penados del Barrio asserted in 1984 that 'It is impossible for 
a human rights office to exist in Guatemala at the present time.' 
'Disappearances' as an institutional form began in Guatemala in the 
mid-1960s and eventually reached levels unique in the Western 
Hemisphere, with the total estimated to be some 40,000 [forty 
thousand]. Protest groups that have formed to seek information and 
legal redress have been consistently driven out of business by 
state-organized murder. The Association of University Students (AEU) 
sought information on the disappeared through the courts in the course 
of a brief opening in 1966 but after one sensational expos\'e of the 
police murder of twenty eight leftists, the system closed down again. 
[...] In the 1970s a Committee of the Relatives of the Disappeared was 
organised by the AEU with headquarters in San Carlos National 
University. As Americas Watch points out, ``It disbanded after 
plainclothesmen walked into the University's legal aid center on March 
10, 1974 and shot and killed its principal organizer, lawyer Edmundo 
Guerra Theilheimer, the center's director.'' Another human-rights 
group, the National Commission for Human Rights, was created in the 
late 1970s by psychologist and journalist Irma Flaquer. Her son was 
murdered and she herself ``disappeared'' on October 16, 1980. 


 According to the British Parliamentary Human Rights Group, in 1984 
alone there were an average of one hundred 

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread John Clark
A professional ass who goes by the pseudonym smi...@zonnet.nl because
he's understandably too embarrassed to give his real name wrote:

 The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the
 U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of [blah blah]


Dear Mr. Ass

Once somebody knows that you said supporting the Nazis was the right thing
for the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, why on
earth would anybody who was not drooling and locked inside a rubber room be
interested in your opinion of the morality of ANYTHING?

  John K Clark


**

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread smitra
Because I at least explain why that's the case. Agree or disagree with 
me, but it's something that can be debated. You, on the other hand, are 
an ideologue who is not capable of reading past the first sentence if 
that looks like contradicting whatever you believe in.





Citeren John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:


A professional ass who goes by the pseudonym smi...@zonnet.nl because
he's understandably too embarrassed to give his real name wrote:


The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the
U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of [blah blah]



Dear Mr. Ass

Once somebody knows that you said supporting the Nazis was the right thing
for the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, why on
earth would anybody who was not drooling and locked inside a rubber room be
interested in your opinion of the morality of ANYTHING?

 John K Clark


**

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread Chris de Morsella
 The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the
U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of [blah blah]

Obviously the genocide of the indigenous people in Guatemala in which
something like two hundred thousand human beings (ethnic Maya mostly) were
tortured, killed and disappeared by a brutal US installed dictator Rios
Montt.

US financed and backed death squads, controlled and operated many out of the
US embassy in Honduras with Ambassador Negroponte (Ambassador death squad)
directing operations on the ground - during the mid-eighties and operating
fascist paramilitary death squads in El Salvador and Nicaragua as well.
Genocide, torture, ethnic cleansing and mass rape are inexcusable crimes of
war. 

It appears as if the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people at the hands
of brutal fascist death squads means very little to you. What kind of person
does this make you, who have been calling others by the name Ass (and over
and over too)?

If you do, indeed entertain this don't-give-a-shit attitude about the murder
of hundreds of thousands of people in Guatemala, then perhaps the epithet
you are so freely tossing around might instead more or less apply to your
own person.

-Chris

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 10:34 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

A professional ass who goes by the pseudonym smi...@zonnet.nl because he's
understandably too embarrassed to give his real name wrote:

 The modern history of Guatemala was decisively shaped by the
U.S.-organized invasion and overthrow of [blah blah]

 

Dear Mr. Ass

Once somebody knows that you said supporting the Nazis was the right thing
for the Arabs back then and I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, why on
earth would anybody who was not drooling and locked inside a rubber room be
interested in your opinion of the morality of ANYTHING?

  John K Clark

 

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread Chris de Morsella
 And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in
Chile and Iran, big deal.

John you are either grossly ignorant of history, or squeeze it like
toothpaste through the aperture of your ideological point of view. The
actual historical facts are that both Chilean president Salvador Allende and
Iranian president Mohammad Mossadegh were democratically elected and popular
leaders of their respective nations.

Your choice of words 2 bit leaders actually says a lot about the kind of
person you are. a person who is cavalier with the facts and who is prone to
distort events to fit the ideological prism you inhabit. I suppose the many
thousands of people who were tortured to death and dumped into the Pacific
Ocean by Pinochets death squads were just two bit people as well in your
esteemed opinion.

Does your clearly self-evident and shockingly casual disregard for the truth
- when it comes to politics -- extend to everything you do and say or is
your willingness to lie and grotesquely mischaracterize history, limited to
the political and religious spheres of existence and by some strange
mechanism you are able to see things with a clear and open mind in areas of
discussion that do not involve your own peculiar political beliefs?

-Chris

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 9:53 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

 

 

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
wrote:

Fascism unlike Communism (at the level of lip service at least) never
preached a Universal Fascist state - an 1000 year Reich of one tribe over
other inferior races maybe, but that idea lacks universal appeal. 

 

And lip service (who wouldn't want a workers paradise?) is the only reason
that today people would have far more sympathy for Senator McCarthy if he'd
gone after Neo-Nazis instead of Communists, and in general lip service is
the one and only reason Communism has always seemed more respectable than
Nazism even though it has caused at least as much misery in the world. In
the 30's Stalin murdered millions of his own people and in the 20's Lenin
forced people to abandon their private farms and go to huge corrupt
monumentally inefficient collective farms with the result that millions died
of starvation;  In the 50's Mao did the exact same stupid thing in China in
the name of communism and at least 30 million starved to death. In the 70's
in Cambodia the communists murdered a greater percentage of their population
than any regime in the history of the world. In the 90's in North Korea, a
nightmare country as bad as anything George Orwell could dream up, communism
caused two million to starve to death while South Korea, a country with the
same culture and language but without communism became a world economic
powerhouse. 

And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in Chile
and Iran, big deal.

  John K Clark

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread spudboy100
Chris and Smitra are performing a collective filtering of history, in which 
barbarism is merely a feature of capitalism while jolly, socialists, are 
completely ignored because, if a socialist tortures, or slaugters the innocent, 
that's different. Because they are ultimately,, 'helping mankind.' Stalin and 
Pol Pot, and the Kim dynasty of North Korea, and Mao's Great Leap Forward, were 
all 'undertandable excesses in desparate times' and so forth and so on. This is 
the kind of thinking that most Leftists capitulated with, when Stalin achieved 
his Pact of Steel with Herr Hitler from 1939-41. Nobody has a higher body-count 
of the massacred, then the Left and this is coming from someone who's blood 
relatives were slain by dear Adolf. In fact, I am betting had not the Furher 
decided to turn against his chum, Stalin (Dzugadashvilli) the socialists and 
the national socialists would be fine friends. I would reccomend The 
Bloodlands,  as a history book  of both Josep and Adolf, but there'd be no 
readers here. Ideology rules all I suppose? 


-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 2:37 pm
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood



 And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in Chile 
 and Iran, big deal.
John you are either grossly ignorant of history, or squeeze it like toothpaste 
through the aperture of your ideological point of view. The actual historical 
facts are that both Chilean president Salvador Allende and Iranian president 
Mohammad Mossadegh were democratically elected and popular leaders of their 
respective nations.
Your choice of words “2 bit leaders” actually says a lot about the kind of 
person you are… a person who is cavalier with the facts and who is prone to 
distort events to fit the ideological prism you inhabit. I suppose the many 
thousands of people who were tortured to death and dumped into the Pacific 
Ocean by Pinochets death squads were just two bit people as well in your 
esteemed opinion.
Does your clearly self-evident and shockingly casual disregard for the truth – 
when it comes to politics -- extend to everything you do and say or is your 
willingness to lie and grotesquely mischaracterize history, limited to the 
political and religious spheres of existence and by some strange mechanism you 
are able to see things with a clear and open mind in areas of discussion that 
do not involve your own peculiar political beliefs?
-Chris
 
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 9:53 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
 

 

 

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com 
wrote:

Fascism unlike Communism (at the level of lip service at least) never preached 
a Universal Fascist state – an 1000 year Reich of one tribe over other inferior 
races maybe, but that idea lacks universal appeal. 


 

And lip service (who wouldn't want a workers paradise?) is the only reason that 
today people would have far more sympathy for Senator McCarthy if he'd gone 
after Neo-Nazis instead of Communists, and in general lip service is the one 
and only reason Communism has always seemed more respectable than Nazism even 
though it has caused at least as much misery in the world. In the 30's Stalin 
murdered millions of his own people and in the 20's Lenin forced people to 
abandon their private farms and go to huge corrupt monumentally inefficient 
collective farms with the result that millions died of starvation;  In the 50's 
Mao did the exact same stupid thing in China in the name of communism and at 
least 30 million starved to death. In the 70's in Cambodia the communists 
murdered a greater percentage of their population than any regime in the 
history of the world. In the 90's in North Korea, a nightmare country as bad as 
anything George Orwell could dream up, communism caused two million to starve 
to death while South Korea, a country with the same culture and language but 
without communism became a world economic powerhouse. 

And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in Chile and 
Iran, big deal.

  John K Clark

 


 


 

 
 




 

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread smitra
 period, on Aug. 15, Brig. Gen. 
Francis W. Farrell, chief U.S. military adviser to the South Koreans, 
recommended the U.S. command investigate the executions. There was no 
sign such an inquiry was conducted. A month later, the Daejeon 
execution photos were sent to the Pentagon in Washington, with a U.S. 
colonel's report that the South Koreans had killed thousands of 
political prisoners.


The declassified record shows an equivocal U.S. attitude continuing 
into the fall, when Seoul was retaken and South Korean forces began 
shooting residents who collaborated with the northern occupiers.


When Washington's British allies protested, Dean Rusk, assistant 
secretary of state, told them U.S. commanders were doing everything 
they can to curb such atrocities, according to a Rusk memo of Oct. 28, 
1950.


But on Dec. 19, W.J. Sebald, State Department liaison to MacArthur, 
cabled Secretary of State Dean Acheson to say MacArthur's command 
viewed the killings as a South Korean internal matter and had 
refrained from taking any action.


It was the British who took action, according to news reports at the 
time. On Dec. 7, in occupied North Korea, British officers saved 21 
civilians lined up to be shot, by threatening to shoot the South Korean 
officer responsible. Later that month, British troops seized Execution 
Hill, outside Seoul, to block further mass killings there.


To quiet the protests, the South Koreans barred journalists from 
execution sites and the State Department told diplomats to avoid 
commenting on atrocity reports. Earlier, the U.S. Embassy in London had 
denounced as fabrication Winnington's Daily Worker reporting on the 
Daejeon slaughter. The Army eventually blamed all the thousands of 
Daejeon deaths on the North Koreans, who in fact had carried out 
executions of rightists there and elsewhere.


An American historian of the Korean War, the University of Chicago's 
Bruce Cumings, sees a share of U.S. guilt in what happened in 1950.


After the fact — with thousands murdered — the U.S. not only did 
nothing, but covered up the Daejeon massacres, he said.


Another Korean War scholar, Allan R. Millett, an emeritus Ohio State 
professor, is doubtful. I'm not sure there's enough evidence to pin 
culpability on these guys, he said, referring to the advisers and 
other Americans.


The swiftness and nationwide nature of the 1950 roundups and mass 
killings point to orders from the top, President Rhee and his security 
chiefs, Korean historians say. Those officials are long dead, and 
Korean documentary evidence is scarce.


To piece together a fuller story, investigators of the Truth and 
Reconciliation Commission will sift through tens of thousands of pages 
of declassified U.S. documents.


The commission's mandate extends to at least 2010, and its president, 
historian Ahn Byung-ook, expects to turn then to Washington for help in 
finding the truth.


Our plan is that when we complete our investigation of cases involving 
the U.S. Army, we'll make an overall recommendation, a request to the 
U.S. government to conduct an overall investigation, he said. Charles 
J. Hanley and Jae-Soon Chang, The Associated Press





Citeren spudboy...@aol.com:

Chris and Smitra are performing a collective filtering of history, in 
which barbarism is merely a feature of capitalism while jolly, 
socialists, are completely ignored because, if a socialist tortures, 
or slaugters the innocent, that's different. Because they are 
ultimately,, 'helping mankind.' Stalin and Pol Pot, and the Kim 
dynasty of North Korea, and Mao's Great Leap Forward, were all 
'undertandable excesses in desparate times' and so forth and so on. 
This is the kind of thinking that most Leftists capitulated with, 
when Stalin achieved his Pact of Steel with Herr Hitler from 1939-41. 
Nobody has a higher body-count of the massacred, then the Left and 
this is coming from someone who's blood relatives were slain by dear 
Adolf. In fact, I am betting had not the Furher decided to turn 
against his chum, Stalin (Dzugadashvilli) the socialists and the 
national socialists would be fine friends. I would reccomend The 
Bloodlands,  as a history book  of both Josep and Adolf, but there'd 
be no readers here. Ideology rules all I suppose?



-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 2:37 pm
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood



And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders 
in Chile and Iran, big deal.
John you are either grossly ignorant of history, or squeeze it like 
toothpaste through the aperture of your ideological point of view. 
The actual historical facts are that both Chilean president Salvador 
Allende and Iranian president Mohammad Mossadegh were democratically 
elected and popular leaders of their respective nations.
Your choice of words 2 bit leaders actually says a lot about

RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread Chris de Morsella
Hey spudboy maybe you may want to lay off the crack

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 12:56 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

Chris and Smitra are performing a collective filtering of history, in which
barbarism is merely a feature of capitalism while jolly, socialists, are
completely ignored because, if a socialist tortures, or slaugters the
innocent, that's different. Because they are ultimately,, 'helping mankind.'
Stalin and Pol Pot, and the Kim dynasty of North Korea, and Mao's Great Leap
Forward, were all 'undertandable excesses in desparate times' and so forth
and so on. This is the kind of thinking that most Leftists capitulated with,
when Stalin achieved his Pact of Steel with Herr Hitler from 1939-41. Nobody
has a higher body-count of the massacred, then the Left and this is coming
from someone who's blood relatives were slain by dear Adolf. In fact, I am
betting had not the Furher decided to turn against his chum, Stalin
(Dzugadashvilli) the socialists and the national socialists would be fine
friends. I would reccomend The Bloodlands,  as a history book  of both Josep
and Adolf, but there'd be no readers here. Ideology rules all I suppose? 

-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 2:37 pm
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in
Chile and Iran, big deal.

John you are either grossly ignorant of history, or squeeze it like
toothpaste through the aperture of your ideological point of view. The
actual historical facts are that both Chilean president Salvador Allende and
Iranian president Mohammad Mossadegh were democratically elected and popular
leaders of their respective nations.

Your choice of words 2 bit leaders actually says a lot about the kind of
person you are. a person who is cavalier with the facts and who is prone to
distort events to fit the ideological prism you inhabit. I suppose the many
thousands of people who were tortured to death and dumped into the Pacific
Ocean by Pinochets death squads were just two bit people as well in your
esteemed opinion.

Does your clearly self-evident and shockingly casual disregard for the truth
- when it comes to politics -- extend to everything you do and say or is
your willingness to lie and grotesquely mischaracterize history, limited to
the political and religious spheres of existence and by some strange
mechanism you are able to see things with a clear and open mind in areas of
discussion that do not involve your own peculiar political beliefs?

-Chris

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 9:53 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

 

 

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
wrote:

Fascism unlike Communism (at the level of lip service at least) never
preached a Universal Fascist state - an 1000 year Reich of one tribe over
other inferior races maybe, but that idea lacks universal appeal. 

 

And lip service (who wouldn't want a workers paradise?) is the only reason
that today people would have far more sympathy for Senator McCarthy if he'd
gone after Neo-Nazis instead of Communists, and in general lip service is
the one and only reason Communism has always seemed more respectable than
Nazism even though it has caused at least as much misery in the world. In
the 30's Stalin murdered millions of his own people and in the 20's Lenin
forced people to abandon their private farms and go to huge corrupt
monumentally inefficient collective farms with the result that millions died
of starvation;  In the 50's Mao did the exact same stupid thing in China in
the name of communism and at least 30 million starved to death. In the 70's
in Cambodia the communists murdered a greater percentage of their population
than any regime in the history of the world. In the 90's in North Korea, a
nightmare country as bad as anything George Orwell could dream up, communism
caused two million to starve to death while South Korea, a country with the
same culture and language but without communism became a world economic
powerhouse. 

And yes half a century ago the CIA over through some 2 bit leaders in Chile
and Iran, big deal.

  John K Clark

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Visit

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread meekerdb

On 8/25/2013 9:36 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
If I think that: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened, it ended up 
exposing the fascist Neo-Cons for what they were.


That's sort of like saying it's good that the Nazi's killed all those people in death 
camps because that exposed what a dangerous philosophy of government Nazism is.


Brent

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-25 Thread chris peck
corruption in politics (US elections 2000) is good in hind sight because it led 
to democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq.

or one more up Saibal's street:

In hind sight the end of the Raj was a bad thing because it led to the 
partition of India and Pakistan, wars over Kashmir and nuclear friction.

There must be loads of counter-intuitive and flame worthy comments that can be 
rendered using Saibal's hokey logic.

We should give some monkeys typewriters and throw a banana to the ape that 
generates the best one.

all the best.

Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 15:01:27 -0700
From: meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood


  

  
  
On 8/25/2013 9:36 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl
  wrote:


If I think that: With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing
  to have happened, it ended up exposing the fascist Neo-Cons for
  what they were.


That's sort of like
  saying it's good that the Nazi's killed all those people in death
  camps because that exposed what a dangerous philosophy of
  government Nazism is.

  

  Brent


  





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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-24 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 8:09 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:

 Supporting the Nazis was the right thing to for the Arabs back then.
 [...] Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing


You sir are an ass.

  John K Clark

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-24 Thread spudboy100
Sex would be more interesting, purely, from a Hugh Everett the 3rd point of 
view of course.



-Original Message-
From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Aug 23, 2013 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood


To talk about politics in a group is like  sex exhibition: it exert an 
irresistible attention that disturb the whole group. That is one of the main 
reasons why sex exhibition (and politics) is prohibited in most real and 
virtual places: It makes impossible any other activity. it is like a black hole 
that disolves the stablished network of pacific exchange of information about 
different interests. The same happens with politics and maybe other things that 
attract an instinctive attention. I hope not to have switched the discussion to 
sex. 



2013/8/23 spudboy...@aol.com

Surprising the uprising against Morsi, was centrally about economic stagnation, 
food prices, inflation, and unemployment-not per se' a political issue or even 
a religious one. These people, for the most part, were not objecting to Islamic 
Law (Sharia) for example, but being able to purchase enough rice, and lamb. One 
 writer, this week, compared the resistance of the Egyptian Army to the 
roll-over of the Wehrmacht, in Germany, in the 1930's. The old Prussian ruling 
class did suspect adolf would lead them into a bad (for Germany) military 
situation, but went along, as the people seemed to support the fuhrer, and 
wanted to avoid bloodshed in the streets, as we see in Egypt today. The 
military in Egypt may have chosen to take the less, disastrous, path, since 
Morsi's MB collectives, may have induced a calamity, in which Cairo and 
Alexandra would be vanished. Your support of the Islamist agenda (De Facto) is 
indeed, troubling.



-Original Message-
From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com


Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 10:17 am
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood


In these sorts of polls the proper context is missing. Then you can 
asily fall in the same trap as the Germans who supported Hitler. In 
gypt you actually see this very clearly, a large fraction of the 
opulation who are against the Muslim Brotherhood are saying that the 
undreds of dead civilians are not the responsibility of the security 
orces that these civilians deserved to die for supporting the Muslim 
rotherhood.
This is fascism, it is not per se that you have some evil dictator in 
ower who is doing bad things, but it is a government who does bad 
hings with the support of a large fraction of the population, and 
hat then these bad things are perceived to be good things.
Saibal

Citeren spudboy...@aol.com:

 Its a solid majoritarian opinion by the Umah (Islamic nation) tho' 
 their are huge schisms within Islam..Sunni v Shia, Amadi's (the good 
 guys).  A PEW opinion survey of Islamic states bears Alberto's views 
 out-sorry to say. It's not bigotry, if is true, nor is it propaganda, 
 if one is not, using a little truth to tell a big lie. It's telling a 
 big truth, about how the Faithful view the world, and to educate, and 
 accept the facts as they are. What to do about this if we are correct 
 is complicated.  Frankly, I am guessing that we might mitigate this 
 dilemma by focusing on the prime motivation within Islam--Life after 
 Death. It is, as we yanks say, what gets them out of bed in the 
 morning It's even more central to Islam then it is to 
 Christianity we can put our collective efforts there instead of 
 focusing on personal attacks, or ideological correctness.

 Mitch


 -Original Message-
 From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 8:52 pm
 Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood



 More hateful stereotyping of a diverse group numbering over a billion 
 human beings by our very own fascist troll

 From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. 
 Corona
 Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:02 PM
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood


 Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political debates.



 Google: hitler arab countries television



 It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the 
 same main goal. you know.



 Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its 
 doctoral thesis at the university about denial of the Holocaust.



 The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the 
 Nazi party.



 There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or 
 hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world.



 If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim 
 fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites






 2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-24 Thread smitra
With hindsight 9/11 was a good thing to have happened, it ended up 
exposing the fascist Neo-Cons for what they were. The Neo-Con ideology 
was defeated on the battlegrounds of Iraq. It is sad that it had to 
happen that way with all the innocent victims in the US and Iraq, but I 
believe that the US and the rest of the World are today better off with 
these things having happened.


Citeren John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:


On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 8:09 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:


Supporting the Nazis was the right thing to for the Arabs back then.
[...] Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing



You sir are an ass.

 John K Clark

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-23 Thread spudboy100


Well, to stay on topic, the Muslim Brotherhood, which is alive and well today, 
and is influential, as it is funded by different elements within the Islamic 
world. The Saudis will fund the Brotherhood, but not in Egypt, but Qatar will. 
Go figure. Is the MB fueled by hatred? No doubt at all. Did fascism and Nazism 
inspire them? Again, doubtless. In Jabotinsky's case, he looked to leverage 
against British rule, in Palestine. In the MB's case, they liked the 
organizational skills and philosophy of Adolf, and liked his thing about the 
Jews, as it seemed to them a quicker rout to paradise, to fulfill the Quaran, 
and the Buhkhari. Jobotinsky failed, miserably, with Mussolini, but, let us 
note. Since Smitra spawned this post, we end up talking about his views that  
supported Al Qaeda, but not their attacks against civilians, and seemed hold 
that Western Imperialism,' bad, but Islamist Supremacy was just peachy. This 
is a view held by Progressives, round the world, and is exemplified by the ISM, 
International Socialist Movement.  I suppose these guys view Islamists as 
useful, fellow, travelers, to quote Stalin. 

-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 12:37 pm
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood



Jabotinsky, who is one of the most important historical figures of the 
development of Zionism in Israel was a great and open admirer of Mussolini and 
of the fascist ideology. Fascism – during that period of history was seen as a 
futurist/modern ideology and was admired by many including many Americans of 
the time. 
Does this mean Zionism and all modern Zionists love fascism – a fair number of 
them seem to Lieberman for example – but I hope you see how it is not fair to 
use Jabotinski’s great admiration for fascism and for Mussolini to characterize 
modern Zionism. His affinity for fascism certainly probably influenced his 
development of the Iron Wall ideology of Zionism (read about it) so it has 
certainly shown up, especially amongst his ideological heirs in the Likud 
Party, but one cannot therefore characterize all Israeli’s and even more all 
Jews as being therefore suspect of being fascists. That kind of idiocy would be 
shot down straight away; why is the same kind of false parallelism not shot 
down when the subject comes around to Muslims? Why the double standard?
Hope this illustration helps you understand how problematic it is to put, the 
peculiar affinities (for our way of looking at things) of historical figures 
into a modern context and use their ancient statements and beliefs to 
characterize whatever the movement or ideology, they had a part in founding, 
has evolved over the course of history since their times.
-Chris
 
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 5:49 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
 

The Al Bana brothers who essentially started up the MB, as opposed to similar 
movements, like Abu Salafia. They started the MB formally in 1928, and liked 
Mussolini's fascists (everybody did back then!) and followed forward in their 
love of Adolf when he achieved state power. Alberto is correct about the 
Baathists in Syria and Iraq, and many Muslim writers compare (favorably) Mein 
Kampf (struggle) with the commands to perform Jihad (struggle) against the Qfar 
(infidels). These writers and jurists see it as the same, sad to say. 
Christopher Hitchens (the atheist) and his friends got in a fight with members 
of the Syrian Nazi Party (part of Assad's coalition), and now Dawkins is 
actually comparing the Jihadist actions to the Reich (bully for Dawkins waking 
up). Cheers for Alberto's post as well.

 

Mitch

-Original Message-
From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political debates. 

 

Google: hitler arab countries television

 

 It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the same main 
goal. you know. 

 

Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral thesis 
at the university about denial of the Holocaust. 

 

The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the Nazi 
party. 

 

There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or hitler-inspired 
ideas in the musling world.

 

If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim 
fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites

 


 

2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net


On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a fact. 

 

What is the evidence

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-23 Thread spudboy100

Surprising the uprising against Morsi, was centrally about economic stagnation, 
food prices, inflation, and unemployment-not per se' a political issue or even 
a religious one. These people, for the most part, were not objecting to Islamic 
Law (Sharia) for example, but being able to purchase enough rice, and lamb. One 
 writer, this week, compared the resistance of the Egyptian Army to the 
roll-over of the Wehrmacht, in Germany, in the 1930's. The old Prussian ruling 
class did suspect adolf would lead them into a bad (for Germany) military 
situation, but went along, as the people seemed to support the fuhrer, and 
wanted to avoid bloodshed in the streets, as we see in Egypt today. The 
military in Egypt may have chosen to take the less, disastrous, path, since 
Morsi's MB collectives, may have induced a calamity, in which Cairo and 
Alexandra would be vanished. Your support of the Islamist agenda (De Facto) is 
indeed, troubling.


-Original Message-
From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 10:17 am
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood


In these sorts of polls the proper context is missing. Then you can 
easily fall in the same trap as the Germans who supported Hitler. In 
Egypt you actually see this very clearly, a large fraction of the 
population who are against the Muslim Brotherhood are saying that the 
hundreds of dead civilians are not the responsibility of the security 
forces that these civilians deserved to die for supporting the Muslim 
Brotherhood.

This is fascism, it is not per se that you have some evil dictator in 
power who is doing bad things, but it is a government who does bad 
things with the support of a large fraction of the population, and 
that then these bad things are perceived to be good things.

Saibal



Citeren spudboy...@aol.com:


 Its a solid majoritarian opinion by the Umah (Islamic nation) tho' 
 their are huge schisms within Islam..Sunni v Shia, Amadi's (the good 
 guys).  A PEW opinion survey of Islamic states bears Alberto's views 
 out-sorry to say. It's not bigotry, if is true, nor is it propaganda, 
 if one is not, using a little truth to tell a big lie. It's telling a 
 big truth, about how the Faithful view the world, and to educate, and 
 accept the facts as they are. What to do about this if we are correct 
 is complicated.  Frankly, I am guessing that we might mitigate this 
 dilemma by focusing on the prime motivation within Islam--Life after 
 Death. It is, as we yanks say, what gets them out of bed in the 
 morning It's even more central to Islam then it is to 
 Christianity we can put our collective efforts there instead of 
 focusing on personal attacks, or ideological correctness.

 Mitch


 -Original Message-
 From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 8:52 pm
 Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood



 More hateful stereotyping of a diverse group numbering over a billion 
 human beings by our very own fascist troll

 From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. 
 Corona
 Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:02 PM
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood


 Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political debates.



 Google: hitler arab countries television



 It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the 
 same main goal. you know.



 Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its 
 doctoral thesis at the university about denial of the Holocaust.



 The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the 
 Nazi party.



 There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or 
 hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world.



 If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim 
 fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites






 2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net


 On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

 That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word 
 is a fact.



 What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

 Brent


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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-23 Thread Alberto G. Corona
To talk about politics in a group is like  sex exhibition: it exert an
irresistible attention that disturb the whole group. That is one of the
main reasons why sex exhibition (and politics) is prohibited in most real
and virtual places: It makes impossible any other activity. it is like a
black hole that disolves the stablished network of pacific exchange of
information about different interests. The same happens with politics and
maybe other things that attract an instinctive attention. I hope not to
have switched the discussion to sex.


2013/8/23 spudboy...@aol.com

  Surprising the uprising against Morsi, was centrally about economic
 stagnation, food prices, inflation, and unemployment-not per se' a
 political issue or even a religious one. These people, for the most part,
 were not objecting to Islamic Law (Sharia) for example, but being able to
 purchase enough rice, and lamb. One  writer, this week, compared the
 resistance of the Egyptian Army to the roll-over of the Wehrmacht, in
 Germany, in the 1930's. The old Prussian ruling class did suspect adolf
 would lead them into a bad (for Germany) military situation, but went
 along, as the people seemed to support the fuhrer, and wanted to avoid
 bloodshed in the streets, as we see in Egypt today. The military in Egypt
 may have chosen to take the less, disastrous, path, since Morsi's MB
 collectives, may have induced a calamity, in which Cairo and Alexandra
 would be vanished. Your support of the Islamist agenda (De Facto) is
 indeed, troubling.
  -Original Message-
 From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 10:17 am
 Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

  In these sorts of polls the proper context is missing. Then you can
 easily fall in the same trap as the Germans who supported Hitler. In
 Egypt you actually see this very clearly, a large fraction of the
 population who are against the Muslim Brotherhood are saying that the
 hundreds of dead civilians are not the responsibility of the security
 forces that these civilians deserved to die for supporting the Muslim
 Brotherhood.

 This is fascism, it is not per se that you have some evil dictator in
 power who is doing bad things, but it is a government who does bad
 things with the support of a large fraction of the population, and
 that then these bad things are perceived to be good things.

 Saibal



 Citeren spudboy...@aol.com:

 
  Its a solid majoritarian opinion by the Umah (Islamic nation) tho'
  their are huge schisms within Islam..Sunni v Shia, Amadi's (the good
  guys).  A PEW opinion survey of Islamic states bears Alberto's views
  out-sorry to say. It's not bigotry, if is true, nor is it propaganda,
  if one is not, using a little truth to tell a big lie. It's telling a
  big truth, about how the Faithful view the world, and to educate, and
  accept the facts as they are. What to do about this if we are correct
  is complicated.  Frankly, I am guessing that we might mitigate this
  dilemma by focusing on the prime motivation within Islam--Life after
  Death. It is, as we yanks say, what gets them out of bed in the
  morning It's even more central to Islam then it is to
  Christianity we can put our collective efforts there instead of
  focusing on personal attacks, or ideological correctness.
 
  Mitch
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
  To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
  Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 8:52 pm
  Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
 
 
 
  More hateful stereotyping of a diverse group numbering over a billion
  human beings by our very own fascist troll
 
  From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
  [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com 
  everything-list@googlegroups.com?] On Behalf Of Alberto G.
  Corona
  Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:02 PM
  To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
  Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
 
 
  Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political 
  debates.
 
 
 
  Google: hitler arab countries television
 
 
 
  It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the
  same main goal. you know.
 
 
 
  Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its
  doctoral thesis at the university about denial of the Holocaust.
 
 
 
  The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the
  Nazi party.
 
 
 
  There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or
  hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world.
 
 
 
  If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim
  fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites
 
 
 
 
 
 
  2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
 
 
  On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
 
  That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word
  is a fact.
 
 
 
  What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?
 
  Brent

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-22 Thread Alberto G. Corona
-contradictory. You've got to follow your own theories to their
  logical conclusions. *Which* Western/third world would have been
 better off
  if WW3 hadn't happened? Since everything happens in some branch of
 the
  multiverse, surely there are innumerable branches in which the world
 is
  better off for not having undergone the horrors of WW3. Or are you
 saying
  that, if you summed human happiness in the branches of the
 hypothetical
  branch of the multiverse in which WW3 didn't happen, and compared it
 to the
  sum of human happiness in the branches in which it did, it would be
 higher
  in the ones in which it didn't? Put that way, it becomes a rather
 absurd
  claim wouldn't you say? And dubious - since first of all the
 additional
  happiness in those non-WW3 branches has to make up for the staggering,
  unimaginable misery of the holocaust, the Russian front, Hiroshima etc
 etc
  before getting ahead at all, and secondly because this is all based
 on
  the theory that Nazism not being debunked (It was exterminated)
 would
  have led to an incorporation of fascist ideology into the mainstream
 of
  global social organization, an extremely debatable proposition.
 Extremism
  is fostered by economic desperation. If the world had had time to
 fully
  recover from the depression, notions of invading the world would have
  looked a lot less attractive to the fat, comfortable citizens of an
  affluent western Europe, and Nazism may well have died a quiet death
  without the need for apocalypse. But of course I won't argue that's
 what
  *would* have happened, because making predictions about the
 consequences of
  any single event or change in world history is impossible. If you'd
 like to
  disagree, please tell us all what the consequences of the Arab
 uprisings
  will be in twenty years' time. We'll check back in then and see how
 well
  you performed.
 
  On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 8:56:57 AM UTC+10, smi...@zonnet.nlwrote:
 
  Roger may start a discussion on politics and presents some very
 narrow
  minded views, but I can present a different view that may be totally
  politically incorect but is i.m.o. the right view.
 
  Not only is the 3rd World better off with WWII having happened, the
  Western World is also better off. Without WWII, Nazism would not have
  been debunked and we would gradually have evolved to become less free
  societies. Ideas that are totally politically incorrect like
  euthanizing old and handicap people to save health care costs would
  have been business as usual.
 
  The fundamental mistake Roger makes is to think that the core moral
  values we have today are universal and that you can look back many
  decades and then condemn e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood for having
  supported the Nazis back then.
 
  In the end, Roger's brain is just executing a prgram, whatever is
  against his moral values is encoded in his brain and that information
  did not come out of thin air. Had history run a different course (and
  history has run a different course in different sectors of the
  multiverse), Roger would have supported Nazi policies himself. In
 fact
  we can be sure that such a Nazi version of Roger exsts in the
  multiverse, because all possible programs exists.
 
  Saibal
 
 
  Citeren spudb...@aol.com:
 
   I do not see why Roger, needs, politics in this forum, but, so be
 it.
   Smitra expresses a view that decides the US, has to be ruined for
 the
   evil it has conspired against the wonderful, and innocent, people's
   of the 3rd world. I am guessing that when the ISI strikes India,
   using enhanced fission devices, he will be content that they
 detonate
   it only on legitimate military targets? Enjoy.
  
  
  
   -Original Message-
   From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl
   To: everything-list everyth...@googlegroups.com
   Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:13 am
   Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
  
  
   Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, albeit it would have
 been
   etter if Bin Laden had focusses only on legitimate military targets
   ike the White House, the US Congress, the Senate and the Pentagon.
  
   iteren Roger Clough rcl...@verizon.net:
  
   The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood
  
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=9jk4a3Kk6-Yhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y
  
   Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
   See my Leibniz site at
   http://independent.academia.**edu/RogerCloughhttp://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
  
   --
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   https://groups.google.com/**groups

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-22 Thread spudboy100

The Al Bana brothers who essentially started up the MB, as opposed to similar 
movements, like Abu Salafia. They started the MB formally in 1928, and liked 
Mussolini's fascists (everybody did back then!) and followed forward in their 
love of Adolf when he achieved state power. Alberto is correct about the 
Baathists in Syria and Iraq, and many Muslim writers compare (favorably) Mein 
Kampf (struggle) with the commands to perform Jihad (struggle) against the Qfar 
(infidels). These writers and jurists see it as the same, sad to say. 
Christopher Hitchens (the atheist) and his friends got in a fight with members 
of the Syrian Nazi Party (part of Assad's coalition), and now Dawkins is 
actually comparing the Jihadist actions to the Reich (bully for Dawkins waking 
up). Cheers for Alberto's post as well.

Mitch


-Original Message-
From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood


Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political debates.


Google: hitler arab countries television


 It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the same main 
goal. you know. 


Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral thesis 
at the university about denial of the Holocaust. 


The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the Nazi 
party. 


There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or hitler-inspired 
ideas in the musling world.


If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim 
fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites






2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

  

On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G.  Corona wrote:


That Hitler is the most respected western figure in  the muslim word is a 
fact. 


What is the evidence  for this?  Are there polls?
  
  Brent
  


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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-22 Thread spudboy100

Its a solid majoritarian opinion by the Umah (Islamic nation) tho' their are 
huge schisms within Islam..Sunni v Shia, Amadi's (the good guys).  A PEW 
opinion survey of Islamic states bears Alberto's views out-sorry to say. It's 
not bigotry, if is true, nor is it propaganda, if one is not, using a little 
truth to tell a big lie. It's telling a big truth, about how the Faithful view 
the world, and to educate, and accept the facts as they are. What to do about 
this if we are correct is complicated.  Frankly, I am guessing that we might 
mitigate this dilemma by focusing on the prime motivation within Islam--Life 
after Death. It is, as we yanks say, what gets them out of bed in the morning 
It's even more central to Islam then it is to Christianity we can put our 
collective efforts there instead of focusing on personal attacks, or 
ideological correctness.

Mitch


-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 8:52 pm
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood



More hateful stereotyping of a diverse group numbering over a billion human 
beings by our very own fascist troll
 
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:02 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
 

Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political debates.

 

Google: hitler arab countries television

 

 It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the same main 
goal. you know. 

 

Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral thesis 
at the university about denial of the Holocaust. 

 

The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the Nazi 
party. 

 

There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or hitler-inspired 
ideas in the musling world.

 

If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim 
fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites

 


 

2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net


On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a fact. 

 

What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

Brent


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-- 
Alberto. 

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-22 Thread smitra
In these sorts of polls the proper context is missing. Then you can 
easily fall in the same trap as the Germans who supported Hitler. In 
Egypt you actually see this very clearly, a large fraction of the 
population who are against the Muslim Brotherhood are saying that the 
hundreds of dead civilians are not the responsibility of the security 
forces that these civilians deserved to die for supporting the Muslim 
Brotherhood.


This is fascism, it is not per se that you have some evil dictator in 
power who is doing bad things, but it is a government who does bad 
things with the support of a large fraction of the population, and 
that then these bad things are perceived to be good things.


Saibal



Citeren spudboy...@aol.com:



Its a solid majoritarian opinion by the Umah (Islamic nation) tho' 
their are huge schisms within Islam..Sunni v Shia, Amadi's (the good 
guys).  A PEW opinion survey of Islamic states bears Alberto's views 
out-sorry to say. It's not bigotry, if is true, nor is it propaganda, 
if one is not, using a little truth to tell a big lie. It's telling a 
big truth, about how the Faithful view the world, and to educate, and 
accept the facts as they are. What to do about this if we are correct 
is complicated.  Frankly, I am guessing that we might mitigate this 
dilemma by focusing on the prime motivation within Islam--Life after 
Death. It is, as we yanks say, what gets them out of bed in the 
morning It's even more central to Islam then it is to 
Christianity we can put our collective efforts there instead of 
focusing on personal attacks, or ideological correctness.


Mitch


-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 8:52 pm
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood



More hateful stereotyping of a diverse group numbering over a billion 
human beings by our very own fascist troll


From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. 
Corona

Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:02 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood


Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political debates.



Google: hitler arab countries television



It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the 
same main goal. you know.




Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its 
doctoral thesis at the university about denial of the Holocaust.




The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the 
Nazi party.




There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or 
hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world.




If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim 
fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites







2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net


On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word 
is a fact.




What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

Brent


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Alberto.

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-22 Thread Chris de Morsella
Jabotinsky, who is one of the most important historical figures of the
development of Zionism in Israel was a great and open admirer of Mussolini
and of the fascist ideology. Fascism - during that period of history was
seen as a futurist/modern ideology and was admired by many including many
Americans of the time. 

Does this mean Zionism and all modern Zionists love fascism - a fair number
of them seem to Lieberman for example - but I hope you see how it is not
fair to use Jabotinski's great admiration for fascism and for Mussolini to
characterize modern Zionism. His affinity for fascism certainly probably
influenced his development of the Iron Wall ideology of Zionism (read about
it) so it has certainly shown up, especially amongst his ideological heirs
in the Likud Party, but one cannot therefore characterize all Israeli's and
even more all Jews as being therefore suspect of being fascists. That kind
of idiocy would be shot down straight away; why is the same kind of false
parallelism not shot down when the subject comes around to Muslims? Why the
double standard?

Hope this illustration helps you understand how problematic it is to put,
the peculiar affinities (for our way of looking at things) of historical
figures into a modern context and use their ancient statements and beliefs
to characterize whatever the movement or ideology, they had a part in
founding, has evolved over the course of history since their times.

-Chris

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 5:49 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

The Al Bana brothers who essentially started up the MB, as opposed to
similar movements, like Abu Salafia. They started the MB formally in 1928,
and liked Mussolini's fascists (everybody did back then!) and followed
forward in their love of Adolf when he achieved state power. Alberto is
correct about the Baathists in Syria and Iraq, and many Muslim writers
compare (favorably) Mein Kampf (struggle) with the commands to perform Jihad
(struggle) against the Qfar (infidels). These writers and jurists see it as
the same, sad to say. Christopher Hitchens (the atheist) and his friends got
in a fight with members of the Syrian Nazi Party (part of Assad's
coalition), and now Dawkins is actually comparing the Jihadist actions to
the Reich (bully for Dawkins waking up). Cheers for Alberto's post as well.

 

Mitch

-Original Message-
From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political
debates. 

 

Google: hitler arab countries television

 

 It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the same main
goal. you know. 

 

Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral
thesis at the university about denial of the Holocaust. 

 

The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the Nazi
party. 

 

There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or
hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world.

 

If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim
fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites

 

 

2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a
fact. 

 

What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

Brent

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Alberto. 

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-22 Thread Chris de Morsella
Ah yes, I can see you subscribe to the notion of some scary monolithic
Muslim menace. the Umah Godzilla -- well good luck with your nightmares LOL.
Though you do in passing mention the sectarianism, which is just as
prevalent in the Muslim world as it is in the Christian world - if we want
to see the world through that narrow reductive optic, you continue to treat
more than a billion human beings as a single monolithic block marching to
the same ideological beat and framing these billion separate individual
human beings as some kind of existential menace to our way of life. Is this
an accurate assessment of your political beliefs?

You are so wrong, the various histories and inner beliefs; the customs,
practices and modalities of the many different peoples who have in common a
religious faith - if one can describe a religion so fractured along
sectarian lines as having much in common at all  -- are in fact quite varied
and you cannot understand a Malay, or a Taureg etc. solely through your read
of Islam without also understanding their particular histories.

You are being grossly reductionist and in reality there is a huge diversity
in customs, beliefs, and practices amongst the world's Muslims and in much
of the Muslim world there are also many who do not believe in these
ancient fairy tales, any more than for example I believe in the Christian
fairy tales.

There is not a Muslim world and a Christian world; we all live on the same
planet. there is only one world. We are all the same animal species and
share the same mental physiology and are all driven by the same desires
essentially - to have food, shelter, comfort, safety, happiness, family..
and for some to discover the truth behind the veil.

There are plenty of Muslim fundy assholes, but then there are Jewish,
Christian, Buddhist, Hindu (etc.)  fundy assholes in abundance as well. We
have our own American Taliban - our own wild eyed fundamentalist medieval
minded crazies. What real difference is there between a Jewish/Zionist or
Christian fundamentalist and an Arab/Muslim fundamentalist? Not a whole lot
- IMO.

I agree with those who are concerned about the rise of fundamentalism in our
world, about this return to an iconoclastic, medieval and Manichean world
view, but when it is suggested that this is somehow a Muslim phenomenon and
not a human folly that is festering in all societies and can turn any
society into one that finds itself living through a Torquemada experience,
that is where I get off of the boat and begin to criticize those who
selectively criticize other cultures while ignoring the very same phenomena
when they crop up in their own societies.

-Chris

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 6:01 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

Its a solid majoritarian opinion by the Umah (Islamic nation) tho' their are
huge schisms within Islam..Sunni v Shia, Amadi's (the good guys).  A PEW
opinion survey of Islamic states bears Alberto's views out-sorry to say.
It's not bigotry, if is true, nor is it propaganda, if one is not, using a
little truth to tell a big lie. It's telling a big truth, about how the
Faithful view the world, and to educate, and accept the facts as they are.
What to do about this if we are correct is complicated.  Frankly, I am
guessing that we might mitigate this dilemma by focusing on the prime
motivation within Islam--Life after Death. It is, as we yanks say, what
gets them out of bed in the morning It's even more central to Islam then it
is to Christianity we can put our collective efforts there instead of
focusing on personal attacks, or ideological correctness.

 

Mitch

-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 8:52 pm
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

More hateful stereotyping of a diverse group numbering over a billion human
beings by our very own fascist troll

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:02 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political
debates.

 

Google: hitler arab countries television

 

 It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the same main
goal. you know. 

 

Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral
thesis at the university about denial of the Holocaust. 

 

The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the Nazi
party. 

 

There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or
hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world.

 

If you search

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-22 Thread meekerdb

On 8/22/2013 4:47 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

Hitler invented nothing


Yes, he didn't invent anti-semitism.  That was invented by the Catholic Church in the 
Spanish Iquisition and by Martin Luther.  But Hitler made great use of it.


Brent

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-22 Thread meekerdb
There's a lot of difference between admiring Fascism and admiring Nazism.  Fascism was the 
idea that a nation was a kind of super-organism consisting of people in different stations 
of life working together to achieve collective goals.  It's not a philosophy of government 
I like, but it's not crazy either.  It's roughly the way army's work.  Nazism added 
superstitious beliefs in blut und volk and a virulent hatred of Jews and Roma as 
responsible for degeneration of a mythical Aryan culture.  It adopted genocide as the 
policy for solving the Jewish question.


Brent

On 8/22/2013 9:36 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote:


Jabotinsky, who is one of the most important historical figures of the development of 
Zionism in Israel was a great and open admirer of Mussolini and of the fascist ideology. 
Fascism -- during that period of history was seen as a futurist/modern ideology and was 
admired by many including many Americans of the time.


Does this mean Zionism and all modern Zionists love fascism -- a fair number of them 
seem to Lieberman for example -- but I hope you see how it is not fair to use 
Jabotinski's great admiration for fascism and for Mussolini to characterize modern 
Zionism. His affinity for fascism certainly probably influenced his development of the 
Iron Wall ideology of Zionism (read about it) so it has certainly shown up, especially 
amongst his ideological heirs in the Likud Party, but one cannot therefore characterize 
all Israeli's and even more all Jews as being therefore suspect of being fascists. That 
kind of idiocy would be shot down straight away; why is the same kind of false 
parallelism not shot down when the subject comes around to Muslims? Why the double standard?


Hope this illustration helps you understand how problematic it is to put, the peculiar 
affinities (for our way of looking at things) of historical figures into a modern 
context and use their ancient statements and beliefs to characterize whatever the 
movement or ideology, they had a part in founding, has evolved over the course of 
history since their times.


-Chris

*From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On 
Behalf Of *spudboy...@aol.com

*Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2013 5:49 AM
*To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
*Subject:* Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

The Al Bana brothers who essentially started up the MB, as opposed to similar movements, 
like Abu Salafia. They started the MB formally in 1928, and liked Mussolini's fascists 
(everybody did back then!) and followed forward in their love of Adolf when he achieved 
state power. Alberto is correct about the Baathists in Syria and Iraq, and many Muslim 
writers compare (favorably) Mein Kampf (struggle) with the commands to perform Jihad 
(struggle) against the Qfar (infidels). These writers and jurists see it as the same, 
sad to say. Christopher Hitchens (the atheist) and his friends got in a fight with 
members of the Syrian Nazi Party (part of Assad's coalition), and now Dawkins is 
actually comparing the Jihadist actions to the Reich (bully for Dawkins waking up). 
Cheers for Alberto's post as well.


Mitch

-Original Message-
From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com mailto:agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com 
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political debates.

Google: hitler arab countries television

 It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the same main goal. you 
know.


Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral thesis at the 
university about denial of the Holocaust.


The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the Nazi 
party.

There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or hitler-inspired ideas in 
the musling world.


If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim fundamentalists. even 
on the top of mesquites


2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net

On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a 
fact.

What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

Brent

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-22 Thread Chris de Morsella
Nazism took it somewhere much darker, but Fascism already was exulting the
fever pitch of ethno-nationalism. 

Fascism may have become a generic word we use now a days for that kind of
totalitarianism, but in its time and in history, time after time, fascist
regimes and parties have always exulted in ethno-fetishism and have promoted
an us versus them Manichean world view. 

In each country where Fascism has arisen it has been characterized by
pronounced nationalism most often framed and presented in ethnic terms.
Nazism clearly took this notion and ran with Aryan Supremacism, but all the
other Fascists then: Mussolini, Franco, and yes Jabotinsky as well (because
he was a Fascist) they all saw themselves as leaders of ethnically rooted
nationalist movements. In fact show me a famous fascist who was not also a
virulent ethno-nationalist.

Fascism unlike Communism (at the level of lip service at least) never
preached a Universal Fascist state – an 1000 year Reich of one tribe over
other inferior races maybe, but that idea lacks universal appeal. 

Communists sang Internationale  as expressed in a line from the lyrics in
English: “There simply IS a ruling class, and there is a working class. One
day the majority must triumph over the oppression and terror of the
minority.” They clearly framed their struggle as an international class
struggle. Their slogan was workers unite… or as expressed in the Chilean
protest song against Allende “El pueblo unido jamás será vencido”

Fascism instead has always been nationalist (as opposed to internationalist)
and framed in terms of ethnic and cultural chauvinism… so if there is a
difference between Hitler and Nazism and the other fascist Parties and
personalities it is a matter of degree and not of substance. 

-Chris

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 5:51 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

There's a lot of difference between admiring Fascism and admiring Nazism.
Fascism was the idea that a nation was a kind of super-organism consisting
of people in different stations of life working together to achieve
collective goals.  It's not a philosophy of government I like, but it's not
crazy either.  It's roughly the way army's work.  Nazism added superstitious
beliefs in blut und volk and a virulent hatred of Jews and Roma as
responsible for degeneration of a mythical Aryan culture.  It adopted
genocide as the policy for solving the Jewish question.

Brent

On 8/22/2013 9:36 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote:

Jabotinsky, who is one of the most important historical figures of the
development of Zionism in Israel was a great and open admirer of Mussolini
and of the fascist ideology. Fascism – during that period of history was
seen as a futurist/modern ideology and was admired by many including many
Americans of the time. 

Does this mean Zionism and all modern Zionists love fascism – a fair number
of them seem to Lieberman for example – but I hope you see how it is not
fair to use Jabotinski’s great admiration for fascism and for Mussolini to
characterize modern Zionism. His affinity for fascism certainly probably
influenced his development of the Iron Wall ideology of Zionism (read about
it) so it has certainly shown up, especially amongst his ideological heirs
in the Likud Party, but one cannot therefore characterize all Israeli’s and
even more all Jews as being therefore suspect of being fascists. That kind
of idiocy would be shot down straight away; why is the same kind of false
parallelism not shot down when the subject comes around to Muslims? Why the
double standard?

Hope this illustration helps you understand how problematic it is to put,
the peculiar affinities (for our way of looking at things) of historical
figures into a modern context and use their ancient statements and beliefs
to characterize whatever the movement or ideology, they had a part in
founding, has evolved over the course of history since their times.

-Chris

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 5:49 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

The Al Bana brothers who essentially started up the MB, as opposed to
similar movements, like Abu Salafia. They started the MB formally in 1928,
and liked Mussolini's fascists (everybody did back then!) and followed
forward in their love of Adolf when he achieved state power. Alberto is
correct about the Baathists in Syria and Iraq, and many Muslim writers
compare (favorably) Mein Kampf (struggle) with the commands to perform Jihad
(struggle) against the Qfar (infidels). These writers and jurists see it as
the same, sad to say. Christopher Hitchens (the atheist) and his friends got
in a fight with members of the Syrian Nazi Party (part

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-22 Thread meekerdb

On 8/22/2013 6:39 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:


Nazism took it somewhere much darker, but Fascism already was exulting the fever pitch 
of ethno-nationalism.


Fascism may have become a generic word we use now a days for that kind of 
totalitarianism, but in its time and in history, time after time, fascist regimes and 
parties have always exulted in ethno-fetishism and have promoted an us versus them 
Manichean world view.




Sure, that's part of the idea of the nation as a super-organism: If you're not part of it, 
you're an enemy of it.  There's no room for individualism or dissent.


In each country where Fascism has arisen it has been characterized by pronounced 
nationalism most often framed and presented in ethnic terms.




But also in cultural terms.  As a super-organism, a nation should strive for glorious 
achievements as an individual should.  This generally meant conquering some 'inferior' 
people and bringing them into the glory of your superior culture.


Nazism clearly took this notion and ran with Aryan Supremacism, but all the other 
Fascists then: Mussolini, Franco, and yes Jabotinsky as well (because he was a Fascist) 
they all saw themselves as leaders of ethnically rooted nationalist movements. In fact 
show me a famous fascist who was not also a virulent ethno-nationalist.


Fascism unlike Communism (at the level of lip service at least) never preached a 
Universal Fascist state -- an 1000 year Reich of one tribe over other inferior races 
maybe, but that idea lacks universal appeal.


Communists sang Internationale  as expressed in a line from the lyrics in English: 
There simply IS a ruling class, and there is a working class. One day the majority must 
triumph over the oppression and terror of the minority.They clearly framed their 
struggle as an international class struggle. Their slogan was workers unite... or as 
expressed in the Chilean protest song against Allende El pueblo unido jamás será vencido


Fascism instead has always been nationalist (as opposed to internationalist) and framed 
in terms of ethnic and cultural chauvinism... so if there is a difference between Hitler 
and Nazism and the other fascist Parties and personalities it is a matter of degree and 
not of substance.




Enough degrees  and they become a substantial difference.  Fascism was admired (as was 
communism) for making the trains run on time. I don't think Nazism would have had 
admirers if the death camps had been known about at the time.


Brent

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Chris de Morsella
Because it happened in some alternate universe J

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 12:14 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 



On Wednesday, August 21, 2013, Pierz wrote:

...since first of all the additional happiness in those non-WW3
branches... What I mean of course is the additional happiness in the WW3
branches. The non-WW3 branches are much *less* happy right Saibal?

 

All these posts about WW3. Did I miss a war? 



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread smitra
.

The fundamental mistake Roger makes is to think that the core moral
values we have today are universal and that you can look back many
decades and then condemn e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood for having
supported the Nazis back then.

In the end, Roger's brain is just executing a prgram, whatever is
against his moral values is encoded in his brain and that information
did not come out of thin air. Had history run a different course (and
history has run a different course in different sectors of the
multiverse), Roger would have supported Nazi policies himself. In fact
we can be sure that such a Nazi version of Roger exsts in the
multiverse, because all possible programs exists.

Saibal


Citeren spudb...@aol.com:

 I do not see why Roger, needs, politics in this forum, but, so be it.
 Smitra expresses a view that decides the US, has to be ruined for the
 evil it has conspired against the wonderful, and innocent, people's
 of the 3rd world. I am guessing that when the ISI strikes India,
 using enhanced fission devices, he will be content that they detonate
 it only on legitimate military targets? Enjoy.



 -Original Message-
 From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl
 To: everything-list everyth...@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:13 am
 Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood


 Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, albeit it would have been
 etter if Bin Laden had focusses only on legitimate military targets
 ike the White House, the US Congress, the Senate and the Pentagon.

 iteren Roger Clough rcl...@verizon.net:

 The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y

 Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
 See my Leibniz site at
 http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread chris peck
 A rapid descent into extremism can be caused by factors such as 
economic desperation. However, you can also have a gradual change in 
society and then people are always indioctrinated that their current 
norms and values are correct.

Of course we regard our norms and values as correct. They are our norms and 
values.
However, history shows a steady flow towards more humane rather than less 
humane norms and values.


 So, there was a time when when drawing 
and quartering was a normal form of punishment, and we gradually moved 
away from that. 

Quite. we have gradually moved away from that kind of obscenity rather than 
towards it.

 We are thus more vulnerable to extremism due to gradual changes in 
society

No, by your very own example we are more sensitive to it. Like you point out, 
we have gradually moved to the point where barbarities like drawing and 
quartering are less acceptable. We now regard kicking a dog as barbaric let 
alone public execution.

 So, Hitler could have remained a popular dictator in Germany and the 
 Holocaust would have had a completely different character.

By your own argument so far this is a non-sequitur. Moreover, you have failed 
to show how Hitler could ever have come to power in the absence of economic 
desperation. You haven't even argued for it. You ought to be demonstrating a 
gentle creep into barbarity but you demonstrate the opposite.

 From the point of view of an extremist, the extremists views are the 
norm. So, the extremist doesn't see that he is an extremist. It is only 
in case of a rapid descent into extremism that there will be many other 
people who are not extremist who can see this, also the extremists would 
find them having to defend their views more.

We gradually moved from societies in which slavery was an accepted norm to ones 
which regard it as barbaric. This happened without cataclysm. This amounts to a 
falsifying example. This may help:

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/principle_of_falsification.html

You an then also ask if we are actually already extremists from some 
reasonable point of view that our distant descendants may have. E.g. 
the way we run the World economy with billions of people living in 
poverty could be called totally immoral by people who live a century 
from now.

This has been regarded as immoral for a very long time. You should read up on 
this gentleman. 

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/

But, in any case, yes, our descendants will view some of our norms and values 
as troubling. Just as we do our ancestors. This is because there is a gentle 
creep away from barbarity rather than towards it.

 They could judge us in a similar way as the would judge Nazis.

If they were stupid. Intelligent judges from the future would recognize that by 
the 21st century the gradual reduction in barbarity over millenia had reached a 
point where poverty, womens rights, animal rights, gay rights, could come to 
the forefront of the moral agenda. Its not the case that poverty was not an 
issue before, but that prior to the past 50 years or so there have been more 
pressing and blood thirsty barbarities to quell.

All the best.

 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 14:41:43 +0200
 From: smi...@zonnet.nl
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
 
 A rapid descent into extremism can be caused by factors such as 
 economic desperation. However, you can also have a gradual change in 
 society and then people are always indioctrinated that their current 
 norms and values are correct. So, there was a time when when drawing 
 and quartering was a normal form of punishment, and we gradually moved 
 away from that. If you move very fast away from this, then there will 
 be big differences in the opnions of people about wthe current system 
 being ok. or totally unacceptable.
 
 We are thus more vulnerable to extremism due to gradual changes in 
 society, e.g. a Hitler coming to power who doesn't need to start a war 
 (suppose e.g. that Poland would ahve been annexed without the Western 
 powers declaring war on Germany). So, Hitler could have remained a 
 popular dictator in Germany and the Holocaust would have had a 
 competely different character.
 
  From the point of view of an extremist, the extremists views are the 
 norm. So, the extremist doesn't see that he is an extremist. It is only 
 in case of a rapid descent into extremism that there will be many other 
 peole who are not extremist who can see this, also the extremists would 
 find them having to defend their views more.
 
 You an then also ask if we are actually already extremists from some 
 reasonable point of view that our distant descendants may have. E.g. 
 the way we run the World economy with billions of people living in 
 poverty could be called totally immoral by people who live a century 
 from now. They could judge us in a similar way as the would judge Nazis.
 
 Or, as in a recent SF movie, you can have

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Alberto G. Corona
 wrote:


 Roger may start a discussion on politics and presents some very narrow
 minded views, but I can present a different view that may be totally
 politically incorect but is i.m.o. the right view.

 Not only is the 3rd World better off with WWII having happened, the
 Western World is also better off. Without WWII, Nazism would not have
 been debunked and we would gradually have evolved to become less free
 societies. Ideas that are totally politically incorrect like
 euthanizing old and handicap people to save health care costs would
 have been business as usual.

 The fundamental mistake Roger makes is to think that the core moral
 values we have today are universal and that you can look back many
 decades and then condemn e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood for having
 supported the Nazis back then.

 In the end, Roger's brain is just executing a prgram, whatever is
 against his moral values is encoded in his brain and that information
 did not come out of thin air. Had history run a different course (and
 history has run a different course in different sectors of the
 multiverse), Roger would have supported Nazi policies himself. In fact
 we can be sure that such a Nazi version of Roger exsts in the
 multiverse, because all possible programs exists.

 Saibal


 Citeren spudb...@aol.com:

  I do not see why Roger, needs, politics in this forum, but, so be it.
  Smitra expresses a view that decides the US, has to be ruined for the
  evil it has conspired against the wonderful, and innocent, people's
  of the 3rd world. I am guessing that when the ISI strikes India,
  using enhanced fission devices, he will be content that they detonate
  it only on legitimate military targets? Enjoy.
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl
  To: everything-list everyth...@googlegroups.com
  Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:13 am
  Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
 
 
  Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, albeit it would have been
  etter if Bin Laden had focusses only on legitimate military targets
  ike the White House, the US Congress, the Senate and the Pentagon.
 
  iteren Roger Clough rcl...@verizon.net:
 
  The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood
 
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=9jk4a3Kk6-Yhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y
 
  Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
  See my Leibniz site at
  http://independent.academia.**edu/RogerCloughhttp://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
 
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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Chris de Morsella
Mercantilist plantation systems, economic hegemony of the developed center
and neo-colonialism have absolutely nothing to do with it right? Spud your
world view is limited by the narrow slits you view it through.

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 7:51 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

Nazism would have gobbled down so many races and ethnic group that
eventually it would have gone after yours? It's the love of tyrants that
condemns the Third world to perpetual war and genocide. 



-Original Message-
From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 6:57 pm
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

Roger may start a discussion on politics and presents some very narrow 
minded views, but I can present a different view that may be totally 
politically incorect but is i.m.o. the right view.
 
Not only is the 3rd World better off with WWII having happened, the 
Western World is also better off. Without WWII, Nazism would not have 
been debunked and we would gradually have evolved to become less free 
societies. Ideas that are totally politically incorrect like 
euthanizing old and handicap people to save health care costs would 
have been business as usual.
 
The fundamental mistake Roger makes is to think that the core moral 
values we have today are universal and that you can look back many 
decades and then condemn e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood for having 
supported the Nazis back then.
 
In the end, Roger's brain is just executing a prgram, whatever is 
against his moral values is encoded in his brain and that information 
did not come out of thin air. Had history run a different course (and 
history has run a different course in different sectors of the 
multiverse), Roger would have supported Nazi policies himself. In fact 
we can be sure that such a Nazi version of Roger exsts in the 
multiverse, because all possible programs exists.
 
Saibal
 
 
Citeren spudboy...@aol.com:
 
 I do not see why Roger, needs, politics in this forum, but, so be it. 
 Smitra expresses a view that decides the US, has to be ruined for the 
 evil it has conspired against the wonderful, and innocent, people's 
 of the 3rd world. I am guessing that when the ISI strikes India, 
 using enhanced fission devices, he will be content that they detonate 
 it only on legitimate military targets? Enjoy.
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:13 am
 Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
 
 
 Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, albeit it would have been
 etter if Bin Laden had focusses only on legitimate military targets
 ike the White House, the US Congress, the Senate and the Pentagon.
 
 iteren Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net:
 
 The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood
 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y
 
 Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
 See my Leibniz site at
 http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
 
 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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 Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Chris de Morsella
You are utterly full of it. You make these statements like you knew.. What a
pompous blow hard you are.. A very big mouth affixed to an atrophied brain
is a guarantee of stupidity, and you my friend are an exemplar of this sad
phenomena.

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 8:50 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

Hitler continues to be the most respected historical figure in muslim
countries, as well as in muslim minories in other countries. Therefore it is
not a surprise to me what smitra says. 

 

By the way this third-word mentality and this ate to the first world in the
intelectual elites of third word countries is the mindset that keep these
countries in the misery. Fortunately this is changing.

 

 

I will send to Roger yet another personal mail begging it to stop sending
spurious mails to this list

 

2013/8/21 smi...@zonnet.nl

A rapid descent into extremism can be caused by factors such as economic
desperation. However, you can also have a gradual change in society and then
people are always indioctrinated that their current norms and values are
correct. So, there was a time when when drawing and quartering was a normal
form of punishment, and we gradually moved away from that. If you move very
fast away from this, then there will be big differences in the opnions of
people about wthe current system being ok. or totally unacceptable.

We are thus more vulnerable to extremism due to gradual changes in society,
e.g. a Hitler coming to power who doesn't need to start a war (suppose e.g.
that Poland would ahve been annexed without the Western powers declaring war
on Germany). So, Hitler could have remained a popular dictator in Germany
and the Holocaust would have had a competely different character.

From the point of view of an extremist, the extremists views are the norm.
So, the extremist doesn't see that he is an extremist. It is only in case of
a rapid descent into extremism that there will be many other peole who are
not extremist who can see this, also the extremists would find them having
to defend their views more.

You an then also ask if we are actually already extremists from some
reasonable point of view that our distant descendants may have. E.g. the way
we run the World economy with billions of people living in poverty could be
called totally immoral by people who live a century from now. They could
judge us in a similar way as the would judge Nazis.

Or, as in a recent SF movie, you can have an alien visiting us who then
judges us to be guilty of mass genocide against the environment and who then
decides that we should all be exterminated so that life on Earth can be
saved from us.

If in one reasonable value system something can be genocide on an
unimaginable scale, while in another one it is business as usual, then the
processes that led to this being flagged as business as usual in our
brains have their origin in arbitrary events in our history, as there is no
preference for the flagging as business as usual being preferred given the
way our brain works.


Saibal


Citeren Pierz pier...@gmail.com:

 

...since first of all the additional happiness in those non-WW3
branches... What I mean of course is the additional happiness in the WW3
branches. The non-WW3 branches are much *less* happy right Saibal?

On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 9:49:59 AM UTC+10, Pierz wrote:


Self-contradictory. You've got to follow your own theories to their
logical conclusions. *Which* Western/third world would have been better off
if WW3 hadn't happened? Since everything happens in some branch of the
multiverse, surely there are innumerable branches in which the world is
better off for not having undergone the horrors of WW3. Or are you saying
that, if you summed human happiness in the branches of the hypothetical
branch of the multiverse in which WW3 didn't happen, and compared it to the
sum of human happiness in the branches in which it did, it would be higher
in the ones in which it didn't? Put that way, it becomes a rather absurd
claim wouldn't you say? And dubious - since first of all the additional
happiness in those non-WW3 branches has to make up for the staggering,
unimaginable misery of the holocaust, the Russian front, Hiroshima etc etc
before getting ahead at all, and secondly because this is all based on
the theory that Nazism not being debunked (It was exterminated) would
have led to an incorporation of fascist ideology into the mainstream of
global social organization, an extremely debatable proposition. Extremism
is fostered by economic desperation. If the world had had time to fully
recover from the depression, notions of invading the world would have
looked a lot less attractive to the fat, comfortable citizens of an
affluent western Europe, and Nazism may well have died a quiet death
without the need

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Alberto G. Corona
That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a
fact.

I know nothing from you except what you say in this thread. The bad thing
about discussing subjects like this is that it attract undesirable people
that really are not interested in the group. What do you think about the
multiverse hypothesis what about the relation between matter math and mind?


2013/8/21 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com

 You are utterly full of it. You make these statements like you knew…. What
 a pompous blow hard you are…. A very big mouth affixed to an atrophied
 brain is a guarantee of stupidity, and you my friend are an exemplar of
 this sad phenomena.

 ** **

 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alberto G. Corona
 *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2013 8:50 AM
 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com

 *Subject:* Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 ** **

 Hitler continues to be the most respected historical figure in muslim
 countries, as well as in muslim minories in other countries. Therefore it
 is not a surprise to me what smitra says. 

 ** **

 By the way this third-word mentality and this ate to the first world in
 the intelectual elites of third word countries is the mindset that keep
 these countries in the misery. Fortunately this is changing.

 ** **

 ** **

 I will send to Roger yet another personal mail begging it to stop sending
 spurious mails to this list

 ** **

 2013/8/21 smi...@zonnet.nl

 A rapid descent into extremism can be caused by factors such as economic
 desperation. However, you can also have a gradual change in society and
 then people are always indioctrinated that their current norms and values
 are correct. So, there was a time when when drawing and quartering was a
 normal form of punishment, and we gradually moved away from that. If you
 move very fast away from this, then there will be big differences in the
 opnions of people about wthe current system being ok. or totally
 unacceptable.

 We are thus more vulnerable to extremism due to gradual changes in
 society, e.g. a Hitler coming to power who doesn't need to start a war
 (suppose e.g. that Poland would ahve been annexed without the Western
 powers declaring war on Germany). So, Hitler could have remained a popular
 dictator in Germany and the Holocaust would have had a competely different
 character.

 From the point of view of an extremist, the extremists views are the norm.
 So, the extremist doesn't see that he is an extremist. It is only in case
 of a rapid descent into extremism that there will be many other peole who
 are not extremist who can see this, also the extremists would find them
 having to defend their views more.

 You an then also ask if we are actually already extremists from some
 reasonable point of view that our distant descendants may have. E.g. the
 way we run the World economy with billions of people living in poverty
 could be called totally immoral by people who live a century from now. They
 could judge us in a similar way as the would judge Nazis.

 Or, as in a recent SF movie, you can have an alien visiting us who then
 judges us to be guilty of mass genocide against the environment and who
 then decides that we should all be exterminated so that life on Earth can
 be saved from us.

 If in one reasonable value system something can be genocide on an
 unimaginable scale, while in another one it is business as usual, then the
 processes that led to this being flagged as business as usual in our
 brains have their origin in arbitrary events in our history, as there is no
 preference for the flagging as business as usual being preferred given
 the way our brain works.


 Saibal


 Citeren Pierz pier...@gmail.com:

 ** **

 ...since first of all the additional happiness in those non-WW3
 branches... What I mean of course is the additional happiness in the WW3
 branches. The non-WW3 branches are much *less* happy right Saibal?

 On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 9:49:59 AM UTC+10, Pierz wrote:


 Self-contradictory. You've got to follow your own theories to their
 logical conclusions. *Which* Western/third world would have been better off
 if WW3 hadn't happened? Since everything happens in some branch of the
 multiverse, surely there are innumerable branches in which the world is
 better off for not having undergone the horrors of WW3. Or are you saying
 that, if you summed human happiness in the branches of the hypothetical
 branch of the multiverse in which WW3 didn't happen, and compared it to the
 sum of human happiness in the branches in which it did, it would be higher
 in the ones in which it didn't? Put that way, it becomes a rather absurd
 claim wouldn't you say? And dubious - since first of all the additional
 happiness in those non-WW3 branches has to make up for the staggering,
 unimaginable misery of the holocaust, the Russian front, Hiroshima etc etc
 before

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread meekerdb

On 8/21/2013 7:01 AM, chris peck wrote:
But, in any case, yes, our descendants will view some of our norms and values as 
troubling. Just as we do our ancestors. This is because there is a gentle creep away 
from barbarity rather than towards it.


But I don't think this is just a moral evolution.  I think it is driven by technology. As 
societies become richer they become less competitive and insular and more compassionate 
and open.  If global warming or running out of oil or some other widespread diminution of 
ease and wealth occurs there will likely be a corresponding diminution in empathy and 
compassion.


Brent

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread meekerdb

On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a fact. 


What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

Brent

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Chris de Morsella
A suggestion don't spam the group with your right wing political ideology if 
you are truly interested in the group. 
 
You state things as facts which you have no way of knowing are in fact facts. 
You make a pompous and outrageous statement that Hitler is the most respected 
figure in the muslim world -- and call it a FACT. Show me the exhaustive 
research you have done in order to arrive at this conclusion and that supports 
your assertion that this is in fact a fact. You cavalierly refer to a vast 
heterogeneous collection of different peoples on different continents with very 
different historical and cultural backgrounds that have sharing a faith in 
common -- and based on your profound ignorance you make sweeping broad 
statements characterizing all of them. Not the sign of a keen mind at work; 
rather more symptomatic of an ideologically blinded idiot blundering through 
their mental fog and making loud obnoxious noises, mistaking them as a sign of 
intelligence.
 
You are so full of it; I wonder how your gut holds itself together. Hopefully I 
have made my opinion of you and your stereotyping of others not exactly like 
you abundantly clear. Try to educate yourself about history and about other 
cultures.. maybe, just maybe you may judge less and possibly learn more.
 
  


 From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
  


That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a fact. 

I know nothing from you except what you say in this thread. The bad thing about 
discussing subjects like this is that it attract undesirable people that really 
are not interested in the group. What do you think about the multiverse 
hypothesis what about the relation between matter math and mind?  



2013/8/21 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com

You are utterly full of it. You make these statements like you knew…. What a 
pompous blow hard you are…. A very big mouth affixed to an atrophied brain is a 
guarantee of stupidity, and you my friend are an exemplar of this sad 
phenomena. 
 
From:everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 8:50 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood 
 
Hitler continues to be the most respected historical figure in muslim 
countries, as well as in muslim minories in other countries. Therefore it is 
not a surprise to me what smitra says.  
 
By the way this third-word mentality and this ate to the first world in the 
intelectual elites of third word countries is the mindset that keep these 
countries in the misery. Fortunately this is changing. 
 
 
I will send to Roger yet another personal mail begging it to stop sending 
spurious mails to this list 
 
2013/8/21 smi...@zonnet.nl
A rapid descent into extremism can be caused by factors such as economic 
desperation. However, you can also have a gradual change in society and then 
people are always indioctrinated that their current norms and values are 
correct. So, there was a time when when drawing and quartering was a normal 
form of punishment, and we gradually moved away from that. If you move very 
fast away from this, then there will be big differences in the opnions of 
people about wthe current system being ok. or totally unacceptable.

We are thus more vulnerable to extremism due to gradual changes in society, 
e.g. a Hitler coming to power who doesn't need to start a war (suppose e.g. 
that Poland would ahve been annexed without the Western powers declaring war 
on Germany). So, Hitler could have remained a popular dictator in Germany and 
the Holocaust would have had a competely different character.

From the point of view of an extremist, the extremists views are the norm. So, 
the extremist doesn't see that he is an extremist. It is only in case of a 
rapid descent into extremism that there will be many other peole who are not 
extremist who can see this, also the extremists would find them having to 
defend their views more.

You an then also ask if we are actually already extremists from some 
reasonable point of view that our distant descendants may have. E.g. the way 
we run the World economy with billions of people living in poverty could be 
called totally immoral by people who live a century from now. They could judge 
us in a similar way as the would judge Nazis.

Or, as in a recent SF movie, you can have an alien visiting us who then judges 
us to be guilty of mass genocide against the environment and who then decides 
that we should all be exterminated so that life on Earth can be saved from us.

If in one reasonable value system something can be genocide on an unimaginable 
scale, while in another one it is business as usual, then the processes that 
led to this being flagged

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread spudboy100

Rather than speak economic history, which is an interesting topic, I merely 
stated what I see the facts to be. More clearly, that when Adolf ran out of 
Roma, Jews, and the mentally weak, to gas, and Poles and Great Russians to 
shoot, his camps would 've discovered other Untermenschen to slaughter, if only 
for bureaucratic reasons-to justify the process of racial hygiene, as it was 
termed. Adios, Arabs, Africans, South Asians and eventually, East Asians too. 
Both Adolf and Stalins murdering was like a heavy addiction, couldn't stop and 
wouldn't dream of it.

As for seeking justification for the killing of Americans, I do take issue with 
this, and am likely immovable on this segment. The history of the people's of 
the world, before, the advent of the European imperialists, was no shinning 
glory of freedome and peace. This is usually the selective readings by 
Progressive progagandists seekinng the demise of the US and a few other 
nations. Which is really the whole point.



-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 12:52 pm
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood



Mercantilist plantation systems, economic hegemony of the developed center and 
neo-colonialism have absolutely nothing to do with it right? Spud your world 
view is limited by the narrow slits you view it through.
 
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 7:51 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
 
Nazism would have gobbled down so many races and ethnic group that eventually 
it would have gone after yours? It's the love of tyrants that condemns the 
Third world to perpetual war and genocide. 



-Original Message-
From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 6:57 pm
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

Roger may start a discussion on politics and presents some very narrow 
minded views, but I can present a different view that may be totally 
politically incorect but is i.m.o. the right view.
 
Not only is the 3rd World better off with WWII having happened, the 
Western World is also better off. Without WWII, Nazism would not have 
been debunked and we would gradually have evolved to become less free 
societies. Ideas that are totally politically incorrect like 
euthanizing old and handicap people to save health care costs would 
have been business as usual.
 
The fundamental mistake Roger makes is to think that the core moral 
values we have today are universal and that you can look back many 
decades and then condemn e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood for having 
supported the Nazis back then.
 
In the end, Roger's brain is just executing a prgram, whatever is 
against his moral values is encoded in his brain and that information 
did not come out of thin air. Had history run a different course (and 
history has run a different course in different sectors of the 
multiverse), Roger would have supported Nazi policies himself. In fact 
we can be sure that such a Nazi version of Roger exsts in the 
multiverse, because all possible programs exists.
 
Saibal
 
 
Citeren spudboy...@aol.com:
 
 I do not see why Roger, needs, politics in this forum, but, so be it. 
 Smitra expresses a view that decides the US, has to be ruined for the 
 evil it has conspired against the wonderful, and innocent, people's 
 of the 3rd world. I am guessing that when the ISI strikes India, 
 using enhanced fission devices, he will be content that they detonate 
 it only on legitimate military targets? Enjoy.
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:13 am
 Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
 
 
 Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, albeit it would have been
 etter if Bin Laden had focusses only on legitimate military targets
 ike the White House, the US Congress, the Senate and the Pentagon.
 
 iteren Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net:
 
 The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood
 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y
 
 Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
 See my Leibniz site at
 http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
 
 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
 Groups Everything List group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Chris de Morsella
push polls maybe
 


 From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
  


On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
 
That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a fact.  
What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

Brent
 
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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Chris de Morsella
You merely stated what you see as the facts is true; I am sure you do see them 
as the facts and herein lies the problem. You have not looked very hard at 
history and the evolution of societies and cultures according to the pressures 
that force them to develop in this way or that.
 
Who is guilty of the selective reading of history -- the one who states that 
people in 3rd world countries somehow  love to live under despotism; or the 
person who calls that peculiar view into question?
 
And betraying your true beliefs you go on to say that those who do not 
subscribe to your twisted view of history are progressive propagandists 
diligently working to bring about the demise of the US? -- The implication 
being that they therefore could and perhaps should be considered enemies of 
freedom -- and all those other self righteous and empty words -- and more to 
the point that these hated progressives are enemies of the state. How neat; 
dare to disagree with your particular ideologically motivated frame of 
reference and you risk becoming branded as an enemy... nice work there... what 
a goose stepping thing to utter.
 
Totalitarian minded people everywhere applaud your way of non-thinking.

  


 From: spudboy...@aol.com spudboy...@aol.com
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
  


Rather than speak economic history, which is an interesting topic, I merely 
stated what I see the facts to be. More clearly, that when Adolf ran out of 
Roma, Jews, and the mentally weak, to gas, and Poles and Great Russians to 
shoot, his camps would 've discovered other Untermenschen to slaughter, if only 
for bureaucratic reasons-to justify the process of racial hygiene, as it was 
termed. Adios, Arabs, Africans, South Asians and eventually, East Asians too. 
Both Adolf and Stalins murdering was like a heavy addiction, couldn't stop and 
wouldn't dream of it. 

As for seeking justification for the killing of Americans, I do take issue with 
this, and am likely immovable on this segment. The history of the people's of 
the world, before, the advent of the European imperialists, was no shinning 
glory of freedome and peace. This is usually the selective readings by 
Progressive progagandists seekinng the demise of the US and a few other 
nations. Which is really the whole point.


 
-Original Message-
From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Aug 21, 2013 12:52 pm
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood


Mercantilist plantation systems, economic hegemony of the developed center and 
neo-colonialism have absolutely nothing to do with it right? Spud your world 
view is limited by the narrow slits you view it through. 
  
From:everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com?] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 7:51 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood 

Nazism would have gobbled down so many races and ethnic group that eventually 
it would have gone after yours? It's the love of tyrants that condemns the 
Third world to perpetual war and genocide. 

 
-Original Message-
From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 6:57 pm
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood 
Roger may start a discussion on politics and presents some very narrow 
minded views, but I can present a different view that may be totally 
politically incorect but is i.m.o. the right view.
 
Not only is the 3rd World better off with WWII having happened, the 
Western World is also better off. Without WWII, Nazism would not have 
been debunked and we would gradually have evolved to become less free 
societies. Ideas that are totally politically incorrect like 
euthanizing old and handicap people to save health care costs would 
have been business as usual.
 
The fundamental mistake Roger makes is to think that the core moral 
values we have today are universal and that you can look back many 
decades and then condemn e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood for having 
supported the Nazis back then.
 
In the end, Roger's brain is just executing a prgram, whatever is 
against his moral values is encoded in his brain and that information 
did not come out of thin air. Had history run a different course (and 
history has run a different course in different sectors of the 
multiverse), Roger would have supported Nazi policies himself. In fact 
we can be sure that such a Nazi version of Roger exsts in the 
multiverse, because all possible programs exists.
 
Saibal
 
 
Citeren spudboy...@aol.com:
 
 I do not see why Roger, needs, politics in this forum, but, so be it. 
 Smitra expresses a view that decides the US, has to be ruined for the 
 evil it has conspired against

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political
debates.

Google: hitler arab countries television

 It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the same
main goal. you know.

Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral
thesis at the university about denial of the Holocaust.

The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the Nazi
party.

There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or
hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world.

If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim
fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites



2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

  On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

 That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a
 fact.


 What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

 Brent

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-- 
Alberto.

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Plugging most Arab dictators name these days in Arabic yields mass
dissatisfaction equating them to tyrants like Hitler. But what about
“Hitler” by itself in Arabic into Google? What will you find?

https://www.google.es/search?q=%D9%87%D8%AA%D9%84%D8%B1oq=%D9%87%D8%AA%D9%84%D8%B1aqs=chrome.0.69i57j0j69i62.772j0sourceid=chromeie=UTF-8

It gives around 6 million entries.

Translate the entries for yourself with Google translate:

The first Arabic website was a blog that introduces him: “Hitler was not an
ordinary individual to be spun by the wheel of history to sprinkle him
behind as dust to be forgotten across this vast globe. He was neither the
king of the German people alone. He is one of the greatest few. Here is the
king of history.” Westerners might think that the first
commenthttp://v.3bir.com/77183/ on
such an article would be in disgust. Hardly. Muhammad Jasem posted: “If the
greatest leaders gather together, they would not equal the magnificence of
Hitler.” The rest of the comments were not far off. The second hit was a
YouTube page titled “The Cowardly
Jews,”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8C_Nq-P7bg showing
a Hitler lookalike walking the streets with Jewish passersby supposedly
terrified as they move out of his way. This “proves that Jews are cowards,”
the commentators interpreted.


2013/8/22 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com

 Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political
 debates.

 Google: hitler arab countries television

  It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the same
 main goal. you know.

 Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral
 thesis at the university about denial of the Holocaust.

 The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the Nazi
 party.

 There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or
 hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world.

 If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim
 fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites



 2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

  On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

 That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a
 fact.


 What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

 Brent

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 --
 Alberto.




-- 
Alberto.

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Chris de Morsella
Do you mean to tell me that the foundation of your facts is the number of 
search results returned by a google search... along with a spurious reference 
to some ad hoc quotation -- you cherry picked -- that was auto-generated for 
you  by the google translator algorithm? 
 
Do you realize just how pathetic this meager evidence you have produced makes 
you look? 
 
You made an incendiary statement, characterizing a vast swath of humanity in an 
ugly stereotypical manner, which you very clearly framed as being a FACT and 
then all you can do is come up with this BS. What you have succeeded in doing 
is providing some real evidence of your prejudice and willingness to spew 
hatred  slander on a billion human beings because of your own irrational 
prejudicial frame of mind.
If you think the small little pile of BS you just presented would make you look 
good to anyone -- who is not already on board with your own strange ideological 
set of preconceived notions -- you are indeed more of a fool than even I 
thought you were?
 
Did I just call you a fool? Yes, you heard me, I just did. 
Have a great day stewing in your hatred of others not like you.
-Chris
 
 
 


 From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
  


Plugging most Arab dictators name these days in Arabic yields mass 
dissatisfaction equating them to tyrants like Hitler. But what about “Hitler” 
by itself in Arabic into Google? What will you find?


https://www.google.es/search?q=%D9%87%D8%AA%D9%84%D8%B1oq=%D9%87%D8%AA%D9%84%D8%B1aqs=chrome.0.69i57j0j69i62.772j0sourceid=chromeie=UTF-8


It gives around 6 million entries.

Translate the entries for yourself with Google translate: 
The first Arabic website was a blog that introduces him: “Hitler was not an 
ordinary individual to be spun by the wheel of history to sprinkle him behind 
as dust to be forgotten across this vast globe. He was neither the king of the 
German people alone. He is one of the greatest few. Here is the king of 
history.” Westerners might think that the first comment on such an article 
would be in disgust. Hardly. Muhammad Jasem posted: “If the greatest leaders 
gather together, they would not equal the magnificence of Hitler.” The rest of 
the comments were not far off. The second hit was a YouTube page titled “The 
Cowardly Jews,” showing a Hitler lookalike walking the streets with Jewish 
passersby supposedly terrified as they move out of his way. This “proves that 
Jews are cowards,” the commentators interpreted. 



2013/8/22 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com

Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political debates.


Google: hitler arab countries television


 It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the same main 
goal. you know.  


Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral thesis 
at the university about denial of the Holocaust. 


The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the Nazi 
party.  


There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or 
hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world.


If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim 
fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites 





2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
 
That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a 
fact.  
What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

Brent
 
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-- 
Alberto.  


-- 
Alberto. 
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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Alberto G. Corona
I mean to tell you nothing. I don't want to waste my time


2013/8/22 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com

 Do you mean to tell me that the foundation of your facts is the number
 of search results returned by a google search... along with a spurious
 reference to some ad hoc quotation -- you cherry picked -- that
 was auto-generated for you  by the google translator algorithm?

 Do you realize just how pathetic this meager evidence you have produced
 makes you look?

 You made an incendiary statement, characterizing a vast swath of humanity
 in an ugly stereotypical manner, which you very clearly framed as being a
 FACT and then all you can do is come up with this BS. What you have
 succeeded in doing is providing some real evidence of your prejudice and
 willingness to spew hatred  slander on a billion human beings because of
 your own irrational prejudicial frame of mind.
 If you think the small little pile of BS you just presented would make you
 look good to anyone -- who is not already on board with your own strange
 ideological set of preconceived notions -- you are indeed more of a fool
 than even I thought you were?

 Did I just call you a fool? Yes, you heard me, I just did.
 Have a great day stewing in your hatred of others not like you.
 -Chris



*From:* Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:14 PM

 *Subject:* Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 Plugging most Arab dictators name these days in Arabic yields mass
 dissatisfaction equating them to tyrants like Hitler. But what about
 “Hitler” by itself in Arabic into Google? What will you find?


 https://www.google.es/search?q=%D9%87%D8%AA%D9%84%D8%B1oq=%D9%87%D8%AA%D9%84%D8%B1aqs=chrome.0.69i57j0j69i62.772j0sourceid=chromeie=UTF-8

 It gives around 6 million entries.

 Translate the entries for yourself with Google translate:
 The first Arabic website was a blog that introduces him: “Hitler was not
 an ordinary individual to be spun by the wheel of history to sprinkle him
 behind as dust to be forgotten across this vast globe. He was neither the
 king of the German people alone. He is one of the greatest few. Here is the
 king of history.” Westerners might think that the first 
 commenthttp://v.3bir.com/77183/ on
 such an article would be in disgust. Hardly. Muhammad Jasem posted: “If the
 greatest leaders gather together, they would not equal the magnificence of
 Hitler.” The rest of the comments were not far off. The second hit was a
 YouTube page titled “The Cowardly 
 Jews,”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8C_Nq-P7bg showing
 a Hitler lookalike walking the streets with Jewish passersby supposedly
 terrified as they move out of his way. This “proves that Jews are cowards,”
 the commentators interpreted.


 2013/8/22 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com

  Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political
 debates.

 Google: hitler arab countries television

  It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the same
 main goal. you know.

 Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral
 thesis at the university about denial of the Holocaust.

 The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the Nazi
 party.

 There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or
 hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world.

 If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim
 fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites



 2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

  On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

 That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a
 fact.


 What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

 Brent
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 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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 mailto:everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.comeverything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com
 .

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 --
 Alberto.




 --
 Alberto.
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 To post

RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Chris de Morsella
It's not my time you are wasting with your posting of ideological
prejudices; you waste everyone's time with this troll like behavior.

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:04 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

I mean to tell you nothing. I don't want to waste my time

 

2013/8/22 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com

Do you mean to tell me that the foundation of your facts is the number of
search results returned by a google search... along with a spurious
reference to some ad hoc quotation -- you cherry picked -- that was
auto-generated for you  by the google translator algorithm? 

 

Do you realize just how pathetic this meager evidence you have produced
makes you look? 

 

You made an incendiary statement, characterizing a vast swath of humanity in
an ugly stereotypical manner, which you very clearly framed as being a
FACT and then all you can do is come up with this BS. What you have
succeeded in doing is providing some real evidence of your prejudice and
willingness to spew hatred  slander on a billion human beings because of
your own irrational prejudicial frame of mind.

If you think the small little pile of BS you just presented would make you
look good to anyone -- who is not already on board with your own strange
ideological set of preconceived notions -- you are indeed more of a fool
than even I thought you were?

 

Did I just call you a fool? Yes, you heard me, I just did. 

Have a great day stewing in your hatred of others not like you.

-Chris

 

 

 

From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 

Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:14 PM


Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

Plugging most Arab dictators name these days in Arabic yields mass
dissatisfaction equating them to tyrants like Hitler. But what about
Hitler by itself in Arabic into Google? What will you find?

 

https://www.google.es/search?q=%D9%87%D8%AA%D9%84%D8%B1
https://www.google.es/search?q=%D9%87%D8%AA%D9%84%D8%B1oq=%D9%87%D8%AA%D9%
84%D8%B1aqs=chrome.0.69i57j0j69i62.772j0sourceid=chromeie=UTF-8
oq=%D9%87%D8%AA%D9%84%D8%B1aqs=chrome.0.69i57j0j69i62.772j0sourceid=chrom
eie=UTF-8

 

It gives around 6 million entries.

 

Translate the entries for yourself with Google translate:

The first Arabic website was a blog that introduces him: Hitler was not an
ordinary individual to be spun by the wheel of history to sprinkle him
behind as dust to be forgotten across this vast globe. He was neither the
king of the German people alone. He is one of the greatest few. Here is the
king of history. Westerners might think that the first
http://v.3bir.com/77183/ comment on such an article would be in disgust.
Hardly. Muhammad Jasem posted: If the greatest leaders gather together,
they would not equal the magnificence of Hitler. The rest of the comments
were not far off. The second hit was a YouTube page titled
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8C_Nq-P7bg The Cowardly Jews, showing a
Hitler lookalike walking the streets with Jewish passersby supposedly
terrified as they move out of his way. This proves that Jews are cowards,
the commentators interpreted.

 

2013/8/22 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com

Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political
debates.

 

Google: hitler arab countries television

 

 It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the same main
goal. you know. 

 

Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral
thesis at the university about denial of the Holocaust. 

 

The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the Nazi
party. 

 

There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or
hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world.

 

If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim
fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites

 

 

2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a
fact. 

 

What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

Brent

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-- 
Alberto. 





 

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Chris de Morsella
More hateful stereotyping of a diverse group numbering over a billion human
beings by our very own fascist troll

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:02 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political
debates.

 

Google: hitler arab countries television

 

 It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the same main
goal. you know. 

 

Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral
thesis at the university about denial of the Holocaust. 

 

The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the Nazi
party. 

 

There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or
hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world.

 

If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim
fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites

 

 

2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a
fact. 

 

What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

Brent

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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread chris peck
Hi Brent

But I don't think this is just a moral evolution.  I think it is driven by 
technology. As societies become richer they become less competitive and 
insular and more compassionate and open.  

I agree. I think trade imparticularly creates a symbiotic relationship between 
people which gets internalized. Pragmatically it makes sense to see people as 
friend rather than foe if we want them to buy our stuff and this pragmatism 
then gets solidified in our moral sentiment.

I think there are other factors too. I read somewhere that the development and 
popularity of the novel as a literary form encouraged people to see the world 
through others' eyes and this had some effect on empathy.  There's probably a 
plethora of factors that lead to this trend, but I think trade is a major one.

f global warming or running out of oil or some other widespread diminution of 
ease and wealth occurs there will likely be a corresponding diminution in 
empathy and compassion.

I agree.


All the best

From: cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 17:52:42 -0700

More hateful stereotyping of a diverse group numbering over a billion human 
beings by our very own fascist troll From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:02 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood Just follow the tv of 
muslim countries, and specially, the political debates. Google: hitler arab 
countries television  It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims 
share the same main goal. you know.  Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after 
Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral thesis at the university about denial of the 
Holocaust.  The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by 
the Nazi party.  There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler 
or hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world. If you search,  you can find a 
lot of nazi flags waved by muslim fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites 
 2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.netOn 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. 
Corona wrote:That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim 
word is a fact.  What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

Brent-- 
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RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Chris de Morsella
 I agree. I think trade imparticularly creates a symbiotic relationship
between people which gets internalized. Pragmatically it makes sense to see
people as friend rather than foe if we want them to buy our stuff and this
pragmatism then gets solidified in our moral sentiment.

Interesting point. Killing your customer is usually not a good business
practice; except if you are a tobacco company perhaps. 

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of chris peck
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 6:17 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

Hi Brent

But I don't think this is just a moral evolution.  I think it is driven by
technology. As societies become richer they become less competitive and
insular and more compassionate and open.  

I agree. I think trade imparticularly creates a symbiotic relationship
between people which gets internalized. Pragmatically it makes sense to see
people as friend rather than foe if we want them to buy our stuff and this
pragmatism then gets solidified in our moral sentiment.

I think there are other factors too. I read somewhere that the development
and popularity of the novel as a literary form encouraged people to see the
world through others' eyes and this had some effect on empathy.  There's
probably a plethora of factors that lead to this trend, but I think trade is
a major one.

f global warming or running out of oil or some other widespread diminution
of ease and wealth occurs there will likely be a corresponding diminution in
empathy and compassion.

I agree.


All the best

  _  

From: cdemorse...@yahoo.com
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 17:52:42 -0700

More hateful stereotyping of a diverse group numbering over a billion human
beings by our very own fascist troll

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:02 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

 

Just follow the tv of muslim countries, and specially, the political
debates.

 

Google: hitler arab countries television

 

 It can not be otherwhise since te nazis and the muslims share the same main
goal. you know. 

 

Abu Mazen, the leader of the PLO after Yasif Arafat wrote its doctoral
thesis at the university about denial of the Holocaust. 

 

The Baaz party that ruled Iraq and Siria are inspired directly by the Nazi
party. 

 

There are hundred of examples of continuous praise of hitler or
hitler-inspired ideas in the musling world.

 

If you search,  you can find a lot of nazi flags waved by muslim
fundamentalists. even on the top of mesquites

 

 

2013/8/21 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

On 8/21/2013 11:48 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

That Hitler is the most respected western figure in the muslim word is a
fact. 

 

What is the evidence for this?  Are there polls?

Brent

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Pierz


On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:13:43 PM UTC+10, stathisp wrote:



 On Wednesday, August 21, 2013, Pierz wrote:

 ...since first of all the additional happiness in those non-WW3 
 branches... What I mean of course is the additional happiness in the WW3 
 branches. The non-WW3 branches are much *less* happy right Saibal?


 All these posts about WW3. Did I miss a war? 

 
Oopsies :) Some synapses relating to the prefix www and those relating to 
wars had an unauthorised conversation...
 



 -- 
 Stathis Papaioannou


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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-21 Thread Pierz
 of an 
  affluent western Europe, and Nazism may well have died a quiet death 
  without the need for apocalypse. But of course I won't argue that's 
 what 
  *would* have happened, because making predictions about the 
 consequences of 
  any single event or change in world history is impossible. If you'd 
 like to 
  disagree, please tell us all what the consequences of the Arab 
 uprisings 
  will be in twenty years' time. We'll check back in then and see how 
 well 
  you performed. 
  
  On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 8:56:57 AM UTC+10, smi...@zonnet.nlwrote: 
  
  Roger may start a discussion on politics and presents some very narrow 
  minded views, but I can present a different view that may be totally 
  politically incorect but is i.m.o. the right view. 
  
  Not only is the 3rd World better off with WWII having happened, the 
  Western World is also better off. Without WWII, Nazism would not have 
  been debunked and we would gradually have evolved to become less free 
  societies. Ideas that are totally politically incorrect like 
  euthanizing old and handicap people to save health care costs would 
  have been business as usual. 
  
  The fundamental mistake Roger makes is to think that the core moral 
  values we have today are universal and that you can look back many 
  decades and then condemn e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood for having 
  supported the Nazis back then. 
  
  In the end, Roger's brain is just executing a prgram, whatever is 
  against his moral values is encoded in his brain and that information 
  did not come out of thin air. Had history run a different course (and 
  history has run a different course in different sectors of the 
  multiverse), Roger would have supported Nazi policies himself. In fact 
  we can be sure that such a Nazi version of Roger exsts in the 
  multiverse, because all possible programs exists. 
  
  Saibal 
  
  
  Citeren spudb...@aol.com: 
  
   I do not see why Roger, needs, politics in this forum, but, so be 
 it. 
   Smitra expresses a view that decides the US, has to be ruined for 
 the 
   evil it has conspired against the wonderful, and innocent, people's 
   of the 3rd world. I am guessing that when the ISI strikes India, 
   using enhanced fission devices, he will be content that they 
 detonate 
   it only on legitimate military targets? Enjoy. 
   
   
   
   -Original Message- 
   From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl 
   To: everything-list everyth...@googlegroups.com 
   Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:13 am 
   Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood 
   
   
   Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, albeit it would have been 
   etter if Bin Laden had focusses only on legitimate military targets 
   ike the White House, the US Congress, the Senate and the Pentagon. 
   
   iteren Roger Clough rcl...@verizon.net: 
   
   The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood 
   
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y 
   
   Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] 
   See my Leibniz site at 
   http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough 
   
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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-20 Thread smitra
Supporting the Nazis was the right thing to for the Arabs back then. In 
fact, in India you had a similar sentiment, some people wanted to 
support the Japanese in order to liberate their country. This is not 
something the typical Westerner knows about, but in India these people 
have a lot of respect.


The sad fact is that without Hitler, the West would still be a colonial 
power committing human rights abuses on a unimaginable scale. To defeat 
evil, you need a far bigger evil, which is exactly what happened.


Saibal




Citeren Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net:



The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y

Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
See my Leibniz site at
http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-20 Thread smitra
Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, albeit it would have been 
better if Bin Laden had focusses only on legitimate military targets 
like the White House, the US Congress, the Senate and the Pentagon.



Citeren Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net:



The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y

Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
See my Leibniz site at
http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-20 Thread spudboy100
I do not see why Roger, needs, politics in this forum, but, so be it. Smitra 
expresses a view that decides the US, has to be ruined for the evil it has 
conspired against the wonderful, and innocent, people's of the 3rd world. I am 
guessing that when the ISI strikes India, using enhanced fission devices, he 
will be content that they detonate it only on legitimate military targets? 
Enjoy. 



-Original Message-
From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:13 am
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood


Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, albeit it would have been 
etter if Bin Laden had focusses only on legitimate military targets 
ike the White House, the US Congress, the Senate and the Pentagon.

iteren Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net:

 The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y

 Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
 See my Leibniz site at
 http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough

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Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-20 Thread Pierz
Self-contradictory. You've got to follow your own theories to their logical 
conclusions. *Which* Western/third world would have been better off if WW3 
hadn't happened? Since everything happens in some branch of the 
multiverse, surely there are innumerable branches in which the world is 
better off for not having undergone the horrors of WW3. Or are you saying 
that, if you summed human happiness in the branches of the hypothetical 
branch of the multiverse in which WW3 didn't happen, and compared it to the 
sum of human happiness in the branches in which it did, it would be higher 
in the ones in which it didn't? Put that way, it becomes a rather absurd 
claim wouldn't you say? And dubious - since first of all the additional 
happiness in those non-WW3 branches has to make up for the staggering, 
unimaginable misery of the holocaust, the Russian front, Hiroshima etc etc 
before getting ahead at all, and secondly because this is all based on 
the theory that Nazism not being debunked (It was exterminated) would 
have led to an incorporation of fascist ideology into the mainstream of 
global social organization, an extremely debatable proposition. Extremism 
is fostered by economic desperation. If the world had had time to fully 
recover from the depression, notions of invading the world would have 
looked a lot less attractive to the fat, comfortable citizens of an 
affluent western Europe, and Nazism may well have died a quiet death 
without the need for apocalypse. But of course I won't argue that's what 
*would* have happened, because making predictions about the consequences of 
any single event or change in world history is impossible. If you'd like to 
disagree, please tell us all what the consequences of the Arab uprisings 
will be in twenty years' time. We'll check back in then and see how well 
you performed.

On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 8:56:57 AM UTC+10, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:

 Roger may start a discussion on politics and presents some very narrow 
 minded views, but I can present a different view that may be totally 
 politically incorect but is i.m.o. the right view. 

 Not only is the 3rd World better off with WWII having happened, the 
 Western World is also better off. Without WWII, Nazism would not have 
 been debunked and we would gradually have evolved to become less free 
 societies. Ideas that are totally politically incorrect like 
 euthanizing old and handicap people to save health care costs would 
 have been business as usual. 

 The fundamental mistake Roger makes is to think that the core moral 
 values we have today are universal and that you can look back many 
 decades and then condemn e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood for having 
 supported the Nazis back then. 

 In the end, Roger's brain is just executing a prgram, whatever is 
 against his moral values is encoded in his brain and that information 
 did not come out of thin air. Had history run a different course (and 
 history has run a different course in different sectors of the 
 multiverse), Roger would have supported Nazi policies himself. In fact 
 we can be sure that such a Nazi version of Roger exsts in the 
 multiverse, because all possible programs exists. 

 Saibal 


 Citeren spudb...@aol.com javascript:: 

  I do not see why Roger, needs, politics in this forum, but, so be it. 
  Smitra expresses a view that decides the US, has to be ruined for the 
  evil it has conspired against the wonderful, and innocent, people's 
  of the 3rd world. I am guessing that when the ISI strikes India, 
  using enhanced fission devices, he will be content that they detonate 
  it only on legitimate military targets? Enjoy. 
  
  
  
  -Original Message- 
  From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl javascript: 
  To: everything-list everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: 
  Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:13 am 
  Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood 
  
  
  Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, albeit it would have been 
  etter if Bin Laden had focusses only on legitimate military targets 
  ike the White House, the US Congress, the Senate and the Pentagon. 
  
  iteren Roger Clough rcl...@verizon.net javascript:: 
  
  The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood 
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y 
  
  Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] 
  See my Leibniz site at 
  http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough 
  
  -- 
  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
  Groups Everything List group. 
  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, 
  send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com javascript:. 
  To post to this group, send email to 
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  For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. 
  
  
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  Everything List

Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-20 Thread Pierz
...since first of all the additional happiness in those non-WW3 
branches... What I mean of course is the additional happiness in the WW3 
branches. The non-WW3 branches are much *less* happy right Saibal?

On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 9:49:59 AM UTC+10, Pierz wrote:

 Self-contradictory. You've got to follow your own theories to their 
 logical conclusions. *Which* Western/third world would have been better off 
 if WW3 hadn't happened? Since everything happens in some branch of the 
 multiverse, surely there are innumerable branches in which the world is 
 better off for not having undergone the horrors of WW3. Or are you saying 
 that, if you summed human happiness in the branches of the hypothetical 
 branch of the multiverse in which WW3 didn't happen, and compared it to the 
 sum of human happiness in the branches in which it did, it would be higher 
 in the ones in which it didn't? Put that way, it becomes a rather absurd 
 claim wouldn't you say? And dubious - since first of all the additional 
 happiness in those non-WW3 branches has to make up for the staggering, 
 unimaginable misery of the holocaust, the Russian front, Hiroshima etc etc 
 before getting ahead at all, and secondly because this is all based on 
 the theory that Nazism not being debunked (It was exterminated) would 
 have led to an incorporation of fascist ideology into the mainstream of 
 global social organization, an extremely debatable proposition. Extremism 
 is fostered by economic desperation. If the world had had time to fully 
 recover from the depression, notions of invading the world would have 
 looked a lot less attractive to the fat, comfortable citizens of an 
 affluent western Europe, and Nazism may well have died a quiet death 
 without the need for apocalypse. But of course I won't argue that's what 
 *would* have happened, because making predictions about the consequences of 
 any single event or change in world history is impossible. If you'd like to 
 disagree, please tell us all what the consequences of the Arab uprisings 
 will be in twenty years' time. We'll check back in then and see how well 
 you performed.

 On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 8:56:57 AM UTC+10, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:

 Roger may start a discussion on politics and presents some very narrow 
 minded views, but I can present a different view that may be totally 
 politically incorect but is i.m.o. the right view. 

 Not only is the 3rd World better off with WWII having happened, the 
 Western World is also better off. Without WWII, Nazism would not have 
 been debunked and we would gradually have evolved to become less free 
 societies. Ideas that are totally politically incorrect like 
 euthanizing old and handicap people to save health care costs would 
 have been business as usual. 

 The fundamental mistake Roger makes is to think that the core moral 
 values we have today are universal and that you can look back many 
 decades and then condemn e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood for having 
 supported the Nazis back then. 

 In the end, Roger's brain is just executing a prgram, whatever is 
 against his moral values is encoded in his brain and that information 
 did not come out of thin air. Had history run a different course (and 
 history has run a different course in different sectors of the 
 multiverse), Roger would have supported Nazi policies himself. In fact 
 we can be sure that such a Nazi version of Roger exsts in the 
 multiverse, because all possible programs exists. 

 Saibal 


 Citeren spudb...@aol.com: 

  I do not see why Roger, needs, politics in this forum, but, so be it. 
  Smitra expresses a view that decides the US, has to be ruined for the 
  evil it has conspired against the wonderful, and innocent, people's 
  of the 3rd world. I am guessing that when the ISI strikes India, 
  using enhanced fission devices, he will be content that they detonate 
  it only on legitimate military targets? Enjoy. 
  
  
  
  -Original Message- 
  From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl 
  To: everything-list everyth...@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:13 am 
  Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood 
  
  
  Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, albeit it would have been 
  etter if Bin Laden had focusses only on legitimate military targets 
  ike the White House, the US Congress, the Senate and the Pentagon. 
  
  iteren Roger Clough rcl...@verizon.net: 
  
  The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood 
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y 
  
  Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] 
  See my Leibniz site at 
  http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough 
  
  -- 
  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
  Groups Everything List group. 
  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, 
  send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. 
  To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. 
  Visit this group at http

RE: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

2013-08-20 Thread chris peck
 The sad fact is that without Hitler, the West would still be a colonial 
power committing human rights abuses on a unimaginable scale.

I suppose we should expect multiverse theorists to present as fact 
counterfactual histories which can't be falsified.

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:49:59 -0700
From: pier...@gmail.com
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood

Self-contradictory. You've got to follow your own theories to their logical 
conclusions. *Which* Western/third world would have been better off if WW3 
hadn't happened? Since everything happens in some branch of the multiverse, 
surely there are innumerable branches in which the world is better off for not 
having undergone the horrors of WW3. Or are you saying that, if you summed 
human happiness in the branches of the hypothetical branch of the multiverse in 
which WW3 didn't happen, and compared it to the sum of human happiness in the 
branches in which it did, it would be higher in the ones in which it didn't? 
Put that way, it becomes a rather absurd claim wouldn't you say? And dubious - 
since first of all the additional happiness in those non-WW3 branches has to 
make up for the staggering, unimaginable misery of the holocaust, the Russian 
front, Hiroshima etc etc before getting ahead at all, and secondly because 
this is all based on the theory that Nazism not being debunked (It was 
exterminated) would have led to an incorporation of fascist ideology into the 
mainstream of global social organization, an extremely debatable proposition. 
Extremism is fostered by economic desperation. If the world had had time to 
fully recover from the depression, notions of invading the world would have 
looked a lot less attractive to the fat, comfortable citizens of an affluent 
western Europe, and Nazism may well have died a quiet death without the need 
for apocalypse. But of course I won't argue that's what *would* have happened, 
because making predictions about the consequences of any single event or change 
in world history is impossible. If you'd like to disagree, please tell us all 
what the consequences of the Arab uprisings will be in twenty years' time. 
We'll check back in then and see how well you performed.

On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 8:56:57 AM UTC+10, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:Roger 
may start a discussion on politics and presents some very narrow 

minded views, but I can present a different view that may be totally 

politically incorect but is i.m.o. the right view.



Not only is the 3rd World better off with WWII having happened, the 

Western World is also better off. Without WWII, Nazism would not have 

been debunked and we would gradually have evolved to become less free 

societies. Ideas that are totally politically incorrect like 

euthanizing old and handicap people to save health care costs would 

have been business as usual.



The fundamental mistake Roger makes is to think that the core moral 

values we have today are universal and that you can look back many 

decades and then condemn e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood for having 

supported the Nazis back then.



In the end, Roger's brain is just executing a prgram, whatever is 

against his moral values is encoded in his brain and that information 

did not come out of thin air. Had history run a different course (and 

history has run a different course in different sectors of the 

multiverse), Roger would have supported Nazi policies himself. In fact 

we can be sure that such a Nazi version of Roger exsts in the 

multiverse, because all possible programs exists.



Saibal





Citeren spudb...@aol.com:



 I do not see why Roger, needs, politics in this forum, but, so be it. 

 Smitra expresses a view that decides the US, has to be ruined for the 

 evil it has conspired against the wonderful, and innocent, people's 

 of the 3rd world. I am guessing that when the ISI strikes India, 

 using enhanced fission devices, he will be content that they detonate 

 it only on legitimate military targets? Enjoy.







 -Original Message-

 From: smitra smi...@zonnet.nl

 To: everything-list everyth...@googlegroups.com

 Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:13 am

 Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood





 Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, albeit it would have been

 etter if Bin Laden had focusses only on legitimate military targets

 ike the White House, the US Congress, the Senate and the Pentagon.



 iteren Roger Clough rcl...@verizon.net:



 The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood



 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y



 Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]

 See my Leibniz site at

 http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough



 --

 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google

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