Re: Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-12 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal 

Self can include personality, history, ID, whatever,
but it has as its central, essential feature a point of focus
which is a unity: a substance, to use Leibniz's
vocabulary.


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/12/2012 
Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function.
- Receiving the following content - 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-11, 11:52:31
Subject: Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain




On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:05, Roger Clough wrote:




The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

Since neuroscience omits or seems not to feature the most important part of the 
brain, the self,
I've decided to try to locate it. I believe it is the amygdala.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KY_sgX2gAMY/Tg1zrbUs_fI/AfM/-XBfGi_O0RU/s1600/triune%2Bbrain.gif



amygdala triune brain.png

The amygdala is a small brain organ which is not pictured in the above diagram
but is in the center of the reptelian brain in the above diagram. In fact it is 
at the
well-protected center of the entire brain, where common sense, overall access to
brain functions, and necessary survival tells you it ought to be.  Its function 
is to alert
you to anything dangerous in your path such as a snake. Thus it must have 
two functions, a cognitive one to tell a branch from a snake, and
an affective one (fear) to cause you to jump back from the snake.

amygdala = cognitive + affective

Although neuroscience does not consider consciousness to be a dipole as below:

Cs = subject + object


It is a logical necessity. My suggestion is that the subject is the amygdala
and the object is any needed part of the brain (you can find maps of these 
through Google.

In this model, consciousness is at the bottom based on feelings, 
such as the sense of passing time,or self-centered fear. Above or beyond are
the cognitive functions necessary for thinking and image perception.




I find this plausible for consciousness, but not for the self, which in my 
opinion might be related more to a cycle of information going through both the 
neocortex, and the cerebral stem. That would fit better Hobson theory of 
dreams, and computationalism. But that's speculation 'course.


Bruno


















Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/11/2012 
Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function.


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Re: Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-12 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal 

Thanks.


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/12/2012 
Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function.
- Receiving the following content - 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-11, 13:25:05
Subject: Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain




On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:33, Alberto G. Corona wrote:


The idea of looking for a spatio-temporal location of the mental (or soul) 
categories in the brain is wrong IHMO, and it is surprising to heart this from 
you Roger. Brain localization of mental functions is like trying to locate 
physically the spell checker of a word processor in the hardware of a personal 
computer. The spell checker uses most of the hardware.


But there are low level computer functions that are physically located, such 
are the floating point unit, the memory transfer unit etc.  There are a 
parallelism in the brain:  IHMO there is a confusion between very specialized 
functions, like sensory processing, which are localized for reasons of 
processing efficiency and wider, higuer level functions like the self, which 
are not subject to this restriction. As far as i know, the amygdala is part of 
these efficiency-constrained parts of the brain. For this reason it is almost a 
separate organ. It is in charge of  early processing of sensory data to trigger 
rapid responses before they are consciously analysed.





You can't locate the first person mind, but you can locate relatively to you 
the 3p modules responsible for the relative (to you) manifestation of that 
mind. 


In fine, that local 3p is only an 1p-plural due to the 1p indeterminacy on all 
the arithmetical realization of those manifestation, so the exact 3p picture 
is more complex, and involves infinities of computations.


Bruno








2012/9/11 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net



The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

Since neuroscience omits or seems not to feature the most important part of the 
brain, the self,
I've decided to try to locate it. I believe it is the amygdala.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KY_sgX2gAMY/Tg1zrbUs_fI/AfM/-XBfGi_O0RU/s1600/triune%2Bbrain.gif



amygdala triune brain.png

The amygdala is a small brain organ which is not pictured in the above diagram
but is in the center of the reptelian brain in the above diagram. In fact it is 
at the
well-protected center of the entire brain, where common sense, overall access to
brain functions, and necessary survival tells you it ought to be.  Its function 
is to alert
you to anything dangerous in your path such as a snake. Thus it must have 
two functions, a cognitive one to tell a branch from a snake, and
an affective one (fear) to cause you to jump back from the snake.

amygdala = cognitive + affective

Although neuroscience does not consider consciousness to be a dipole as below:

Cs = subject + object


It is a logical necessity. My suggestion is that the subject is the amygdala
and the object is any needed part of the brain (you can find maps of these 
through Google.

In this model, consciousness is at the bottom based on feelings, 
such as the sense of passing time,or self-centered fear. Above or beyond are
the cognitive functions necessary for thinking and image perception.










Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/11/2012 
Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function.


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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-12 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 12 Sep 2012, at 12:03, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Bruno Marchal

Self can include personality, history, ID, whatever,
but it has as its central, essential feature a point of focus
which is a unity: a substance, to use Leibniz's
vocabulary.


Which is not the substance is the materialist sense. OK.
The unity of self can be explained by the way we can make a soft,  
immaterial entity, having a self. No need to postulate more than  
numbers and elementary operations.


Bruno






Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/12/2012
Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function.
- Receiving the following content -
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-11, 11:52:31
Subject: Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain


On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:05, Roger Clough wrote:




The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

Since neuroscience omits or seems not to feature the most important  
part of the brain, the self,

I've decided to try to locate it. I believe it is the amygdala.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KY_sgX2gAMY/Tg1zrbUs_fI/AfM/-XBfGi_O0RU/s1600/triune%2Bbrain.gif



amygdala triune brain.png

The amygdala is a small brain organ which is not pictured in the  
above diagram
but is in the center of the reptelian brain in the above diagram.  
In fact it is at the
well-protected center of the entire brain, where common sense,  
overall access to
brain functions, and necessary survival tells you it ought to be.   
Its function is to alert
you to anything dangerous in your path such as a snake. Thus it  
must have

two functions, a cognitive one to tell a branch from a snake, and
an affective one (fear) to cause you to jump back from the snake.

amygdala = cognitive + affective

Although neuroscience does not consider consciousness to be a  
dipole as below:


Cs = subject + object


It is a logical necessity. My suggestion is that the subject is the  
amygdala
and the object is any needed part of the brain (you can find maps  
of these

through Google.

In this model, consciousness is at the bottom based on feelings,
such as the sense of passing time,or self-centered fear. Above or  
beyond are

the cognitive functions necessary for thinking and image perception.



I find this plausible for consciousness, but not for the self, which  
in my opinion might be related more to a cycle of information going  
through both the neocortex, and the cerebral stem. That would fit  
better Hobson theory of dreams, and computationalism. But that's  
speculation 'course.


Bruno















Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/11/2012
Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function.

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Re: Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-12 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal  

If the self or the perceiver is a substance in the Leibniz sense, 
then it is also a monad. Monads (such as me) do not perceive 
directly, but must wait (although actually it's instant) until the Supreme   
Monad does the observation for it and reports back.
As I understand it, the Supreme Monad is not God, but
what God sees and acts through. 


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/12/2012  
Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him  
so that everything could function. 
- Receiving the following content -  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-12, 06:29:20 
Subject: Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain 




On 12 Sep 2012, at 12:03, Roger Clough wrote: 


Hi Bruno Marchal  

Self can include personality, history, ID, whatever, 
but it has as its central, essential feature a point of focus 
which is a unity: a substance, to use Leibniz's 
vocabulary. 


Which is not the substance is the materialist sense. OK. 
The unity of self can be explained by the way we can make a soft, immaterial 
entity, having a self. No need to postulate more than numbers and elementary 
operations.  


Bruno 








Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/12/2012  
Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him  
so that everything could function. 
- Receiving the following content -  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-11, 11:52:31 
Subject: Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain 




On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:05, Roger Clough wrote: 




The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain 

Since neuroscience omits or seems not to feature the most important part of the 
brain, the self, 
I've decided to try to locate it. I believe it is the amygdala. 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KY_sgX2gAMY/Tg1zrbUs_fI/AfM/-XBfGi_O0RU/s1600/triune%2Bbrain.gif
 





The amygdala is a small brain organ which is not pictured in the above diagram 
but is in the center of the reptelian brain in the above diagram. In fact it is 
at the 
well-protected center of the entire brain, where common sense, overall access 
to 
brain functions, and necessary survival tells you it ought to be.  Its function 
is to alert 
you to anything dangerous in your path such as a snake. Thus it must have  
two functions, a cognitive one to tell a branch from a snake, and 
an affective one (fear) to cause you to jump back from the snake. 

amygdala = cognitive + affective 

Although neuroscience does not consider consciousness to be a dipole as below: 

Cs = subject + object 


It is a logical necessity. My suggestion is that the subject is the amygdala 
and the object is any needed part of the brain (you can find maps of these  
through Google. 

In this model, consciousness is at the bottom based on feelings,  
such as the sense of passing time,or self-centered fear. Above or beyond are 
the cognitive functions necessary for thinking and image perception. 




I find this plausible for consciousness, but not for the self, which in my 
opinion might be related more to a cycle of information going through both the 
neocortex, and the cerebral stem. That would fit better Hobson theory of 
dreams, and computationalism. But that's speculation 'course. 


Bruno 


















Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/11/2012  
Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him  
so that everything could function. 


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Re: Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough


Hi Albert,

They commonly use IMRI (which detects which parts of the brain are operating
at the moment) to find which parts of the brakin function at certain times.
They find that introspective reflection turns on an areas in
the prefrontal cortex: 
http://www.healthimaging.com/index.php?option=com_articlesview=articleid=24144:study-mri-sheds-light-on-introspective-qualities
Study: MRI sheds light on introspective qualities 
The whole concept of the triune brain shows that certain broad areas of the
brain show 1 of 3 functions. reptilian, limbic, cortex or thought.
My suggestion is that the amygdala is the center and perceiver of these 
activities
just from the brain map.



Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/11/2012 
Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function.
- Receiving the following content - 
From: Alberto G. Corona 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-11, 07:33:36
Subject: Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain


The idea of looking for a spatio-temporal location of the mental (or soul) 
categories in the brain is wrong IHMO, and it is surprising to heart this from 
you Roger. Brain localization of mental functions is like trying to locate 
physically the spell checker of a word processor in the hardware of a personal 
computer. The spell checker uses most of the hardware. 


But there are low level computer functions that are physically located, such 
are the floating point unit, the memory transfer unit etc. ?here are a 
parallelism in the brain: ?HMO there is a confusion between very specialized 
functions, like sensory processing, which are localized for reasons of 
processing efficiency and wider, higuer level functions like the self, which 
are not subject to this restriction. As far as i know, the amygdala is part of 
these efficiency-constrained parts of the brain. For this reason it is almost a 
separate organ. It is in charge of ?arly processing of sensory data to trigger 
rapid responses before they are consciously?nalysed.


2012/9/11 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net

?
?
The self (the amygdala)?nd the triune brain
?
Since neuroscience omits or seems not to feature the most important part of the 
brain, the self,
I've decided to try to locate it. I believe it is the amygdala.
?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KY_sgX2gAMY/Tg1zrbUs_fI/AfM/-XBfGi_O0RU/s1600/triune%2Bbrain.gif
?
?
?

?
The amygdala is a small brain organ which is not pictured in the above diagram
but is in the center of the reptelian brain in the above diagram.?n fact it is 
at the
well-protected center of the entire brain, where common sense, overall access to
brain functions,?nd necessary?survival tells you it ought to be. ?ts function 
is to alert
you to anything dangerous in your path such as a snake. Thus it must have 
two functions, a cognitive one to tell a branch from a snake, and
an affective one (fear) to cause you to jump back from the snake.
?
amygdala = cognitive + affective
?
Although neuroscience does not consider consciousness to be a dipole as below:
?
Cs = subject + object
?
?
It is a logical necessity. My suggestion is that the subject is the amygdala
and the object is any needed part of the brain (you can find maps of these 
through Google.
?
In this model, consciousness is at the bottom based on feelings, 
such as the sense of passing time,or self-centered fear. Above or beyond?re
the cognitive functions necessary for thinking and image perception.
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/11/2012 
Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function.
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amygdala triune brain.png

Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
Nah, the function of the amygdala only contributes one range of sense and 
motive to the self.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/brain-and-behavior/articles/2010/12/16/brain-anomaly-leaves-woman-without-fear

This woman has no amygdala, but besides not being able to experience or act 
out of fear, she is otherwise cognitively typical and experiences other 
emotions such as happiness and sadness.

The self is orthogonal to it's shadows (brain, body, cells, clothes, house, 
planet). The self is a lifetime. It is an experience of significance 
through time, nothing more or less.


On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 7:06:05 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:

   
  
 The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain
  
 Since neuroscience omits or seems not to feature the most important part 
 of the brain, the self,
 I've decided to try to locate it. I believe it is the amygdala.
  

 http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KY_sgX2gAMY/Tg1zrbUs_fI/AfM/-XBfGi_O0RU/s1600/triune%2Bbrain.gif
  
  
  
   
 The amygdala is a small brain organ which is not pictured in the above 
 diagram
 but is in the center of the reptelian brain in the above diagram. In fact 
 it is at the
 well-protected center of the entire brain, where common sense, overall 
 access to
 brain functions, and necessary survival tells you it ought to be.  Its 
 function is to alert
 you to anything dangerous in your path such as a snake. Thus it must have 
 two functions, a cognitive one to tell a branch from a snake, and
 an affective one (fear) to cause you to jump back from the snake.
  
 amygdala = cognitive + affective
  
 Although neuroscience does not consider consciousness to be a dipole as 
 below:
  
 Cs = subject + object
  
  
 It is a logical necessity. My suggestion is that the subject is the 
 amygdala
 and the object is any needed part of the brain (you can find maps of 
 these 
 through Google.
  
 In this model, consciousness is at the bottom based on feelings, 
 such as the sense of passing time,or self-centered fear. Above or 
 beyond are
 the cognitive functions necessary for thinking and image perception.
  
  
  
   
  
  
  
  
  
  
 Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net javascript:
 9/11/2012 
 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
 so that everything could function.


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Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:05, Roger Clough wrote:




The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

Since neuroscience omits or seems not to feature the most important  
part of the brain, the self,

I've decided to try to locate it. I believe it is the amygdala.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KY_sgX2gAMY/Tg1zrbUs_fI/AfM/-XBfGi_O0RU/s1600/triune%2Bbrain.gif



amygdala triune brain.png

The amygdala is a small brain organ which is not pictured in the  
above diagram
but is in the center of the reptelian brain in the above diagram. In  
fact it is at the
well-protected center of the entire brain, where common sense,  
overall access to
brain functions, and necessary survival tells you it ought to be.   
Its function is to alert
you to anything dangerous in your path such as a snake. Thus it must  
have

two functions, a cognitive one to tell a branch from a snake, and
an affective one (fear) to cause you to jump back from the snake.

amygdala = cognitive + affective

Although neuroscience does not consider consciousness to be a dipole  
as below:


Cs = subject + object


It is a logical necessity. My suggestion is that the subject is the  
amygdala
and the object is any needed part of the brain (you can find maps of  
these

through Google.

In this model, consciousness is at the bottom based on feelings,
such as the sense of passing time,or self-centered fear. Above or  
beyond are

the cognitive functions necessary for thinking and image perception.



I find this plausible for consciousness, but not for the self, which  
in my opinion might be related more to a cycle of information going  
through both the neocortex, and the cerebral stem. That would fit  
better Hobson theory of dreams, and computationalism. But that's  
speculation 'course.


Bruno















Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/11/2012
Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function.

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.


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:33, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

The idea of looking for a spatio-temporal location of the mental (or  
soul) categories in the brain is wrong IHMO, and it is surprising to  
heart this from you Roger. Brain localization of mental functions is  
like trying to locate physically the spell checker of a word  
processor in the hardware of a personal computer. The spell checker  
uses most of the hardware.


But there are low level computer functions that are physically  
located, such are the floating point unit, the memory transfer unit  
etc.  There are a parallelism in the brain:  IHMO there is a  
confusion between very specialized functions, like sensory  
processing, which are localized for reasons of processing efficiency  
and wider, higuer level functions like the self, which are not  
subject to this restriction. As far as i know, the amygdala is part  
of these efficiency-constrained parts of the brain. For this reason  
it is almost a separate organ. It is in charge of  early processing  
of sensory data to trigger rapid responses before they are  
consciously analysed.



You can't locate the first person mind, but you can locate relatively  
to you the 3p modules responsible for the relative (to you)  
manifestation of that mind.


In fine, that local 3p is only an 1p-plural due to the 1p  
indeterminacy on all the arithmetical realization of those  
manifestation, so the exact 3p picture is more complex, and involves  
infinities of computations.


Bruno





2012/9/11 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net


The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

Since neuroscience omits or seems not to feature the most important  
part of the brain, the self,

I've decided to try to locate it. I believe it is the amygdala.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KY_sgX2gAMY/Tg1zrbUs_fI/AfM/-XBfGi_O0RU/s1600/triune%2Bbrain.gif



amygdala triune brain.png

The amygdala is a small brain organ which is not pictured in the  
above diagram
but is in the center of the reptelian brain in the above diagram. In  
fact it is at the
well-protected center of the entire brain, where common sense,  
overall access to
brain functions, and necessary survival tells you it ought to be.   
Its function is to alert
you to anything dangerous in your path such as a snake. Thus it must  
have

two functions, a cognitive one to tell a branch from a snake, and
an affective one (fear) to cause you to jump back from the snake.

amygdala = cognitive + affective

Although neuroscience does not consider consciousness to be a dipole  
as below:


Cs = subject + object


It is a logical necessity. My suggestion is that the subject is the  
amygdala
and the object is any needed part of the brain (you can find maps of  
these

through Google.

In this model, consciousness is at the bottom based on feelings,
such as the sense of passing time,or self-centered fear. Above or  
beyond are

the cognitive functions necessary for thinking and image perception.










Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/11/2012
Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function.

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-11 Thread Stephen P. King

On 9/11/2012 1:25 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:33, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

The idea of looking for a spatio-temporal location of the mental (or 
soul) categories in the brain is wrong IHMO, and it is surprising to 
heart this from you Roger. Brain localization of mental functions is 
like trying to locate physically the spell checker of a word 
processor in the hardware of a personal computer. The spell checker 
uses most of the hardware.


But there are low level computer functions that are physically 
located, such are the floating point unit, the memory transfer unit 
etc.  There are a parallelism in the brain:  IHMO there is a 
confusion between very specialized functions, like sensory 
processing, which are localized for reasons of processing efficiency 
and wider, higuer level functions like the self, which are not 
subject to this restriction. As far as i know, the amygdala is part 
of these efficiency-constrained parts of the brain. For this reason 
it is almost a separate organ. It is in charge of  early processing 
of sensory data to trigger rapid responses before they are 
consciously analysed.



You can't locate the first person mind, but you can locate relatively 
to you the 3p modules responsible for the relative (to you) 
manifestation of that mind.


In fine, that local 3p is only an 1p-plural due to the 1p 
indeterminacy on all the arithmetical realization of those 
manifestation, so the exact 3p picture is more complex, and involves 
infinities of computations.


Bruno

Dear Bruno,

Could the 3p be defined as a closed and open (clopen) set of many 
1p's, where each 1p is the intersection (or somethign similar) of an 
infinity of computations?


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Onward!

Stephen

http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html


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