Re: This is the Dream Time
On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 22 Jun 2011, at 01:56, Rex Allen wrote: Related to the Progress and Happiness thread: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/this-is-the-dream-time.html But I am not sure there will be a point where everything worth knowing will be known. In the terrestrial realm (the left hypostases, the one without the *, like G) we will forever scratch the surface. And the right hypostases, like G*, are a sort of promise of an inexhaustible collection of bigger and bigger surprises, in the terrestrial realm and perhaps beyond). On the contrary, the more we will know, the more we will be aware of the ignorance. I guess the key phrase is worth knowing. Worth? I think that he is referring to a particular kind of knowledge...knowledge that gives you some advantage over your competitors or over your environment. And he doesn't say that we will know everything...just that truly new and important discoveries will be quite rare. But, again there's another ambiguous phrase: important discoveries. Important? To whom, in what sense? Again, I think that he is referring to a particular kind of discovery...discoveries that gives you some advantage over your competitors or over your environment. Ultimately he's asserting that humanity will never escape the competitive evolutionary framework. Our current golden age is just a temporary reprieve. Though, evolution takes on a different color in unchanging plenitudinous Platonia. Rex -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: This is the Dream Time
On 23 Jun 2011, at 17:40, Rex Allen wrote: On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 22 Jun 2011, at 01:56, Rex Allen wrote: Related to the Progress and Happiness thread: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/this-is-the-dream-time.html But I am not sure there will be a point where everything worth knowing will be known. In the terrestrial realm (the left hypostases, the one without the *, like G) we will forever scratch the surface. And the right hypostases, like G*, are a sort of promise of an inexhaustible collection of bigger and bigger surprises, in the terrestrial realm and perhaps beyond). On the contrary, the more we will know, the more we will be aware of the ignorance. I guess the key phrase is worth knowing. Worth? I think that he is referring to a particular kind of knowledge...knowledge that gives you some advantage over your competitors or over your environment. It always does. Knowledge is always an advantage, even if it can seem heavy sometimes. And he doesn't say that we will know everything...just that truly new and important discoveries will be quite rare. I think it will be always about the same, except that it oscillates between excess of non unifiable propositions up to the next shift of perspectives, then later, new things does not fit and we are back at too many non unifiable propositions, again up to the next shift. Basically, because, theories are like particles, they can collide and get fertile products, which can rip in different dimensions. Once we think, we really don't know what we are doing. Important discoveries hide other important discoveries. But, again there's another ambiguous phrase: important discoveries. Important? To whom, in what sense? Perhaps in the sense of making steps toward stable paradise, or something. To get sort of satisfaction of the whole, in the as lucid as possible measure of the possible, determined locally by the last unification of the believed propositions. Again, I think that he is referring to a particular kind of discovery...discoveries that gives you some advantage over your competitors or over your environment. Ultimately he's asserting that humanity will never escape the competitive evolutionary framework. Our current golden age is just a temporary reprieve. See my other post. I can agree and disagree. Evolution has led to brain wired self-moving entities with the ability to dream and export their dreams. Evolution makes jumps, and the 'progress' make jumps. I am not sure in which sense you consider our current age as a golden one. Humans are the good candidate for doing the next jump, but they still feel superior and that might be a serious handicap, imo. Though, evolution takes on a different color in unchanging plenitudinous Platonia. Absolutely so, even just in the tiny universal part (sigma_1 platonia). You can put all the rest in the artificial mind tools invented by the numbers to figure out what happen?. Arithmetical truth is inexhaustible and tools needs quickly even more tools. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: This is the Dream Time
On 22 Jun 2011, at 01:56, Rex Allen wrote: Related to the Progress and Happiness thread: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/this-is-the-dream-time.html In the distant future, our descendants will probably have spread out across space, and redesigned their minds and bodies to explode Cambrian-style into a vast space of possible creatures. If they are free enough to choose where to go and what to become, our distant descendants will fragment into diverse local economies and cultures. Given a similar freedom of fertility, most of our distant descendants will also live near a subsistence level. Per-capita wealth has only been rising lately because income has grown faster than population. But if income only doubled every century, in a million years that would be a factor of 10^3000, which seems impossible to achieve with only the 10^70 atoms of our galaxy available by then. Yes we have seen a remarkable demographic transition, wherein richer nations have fewer kids, but we already see contrarian subgroups like Hutterites, Hmongs, or Mormons that grow much faster. So unless strong central controls prevent it, over the long run such groups will easily grow faster than the economy, making per person income drop to near subsistence levels. Even so, they will be basically happy in such a world. Our distant descendants will also likely have hit diminishing returns to discovery; by then most everything worth knowing will be known by many; truly new and important discoveries will be quite rare. Complete introspection will be feasible, and immortality will be available to the few who can afford it. Wild nature will be mostly gone, and universal coordination and destruction will both be far harder than today. So what will these distant descendants think of their ancestors? They will find much in common with our distant hunting ancestors, who also continued for ages at near subsistence level in a vast fragmented world with slow growth amid rare slow contact with strange distant cultures. While those ancestors were quite ignorant about their world, and immersed in a vast wild nature instead of a vast space of people, their behavior was still pretty well adapted to the world they lived in. While they suffered many misconceptions, those illusions rarely made them much worse off; their behavior was usually adaptive. When our distant descendants think about our era, however, differences will loom larger It depends on which futures you are talking about. In some futures, gaussian-normal, or not, depending on ourselves, the descendants might develop some archeo-quantum technic to find their ancestors states and simulate them. In that case, we might be actually both the ancestors and the simulated ancestors. Many things happens in the arithmetical reality, and different humans might explore very different (relative) path. You can expand your memories, and restrict it too, and make back and forth in between. The exploration is worth as far as it doesn't contradict our sense of values. We can bifurcate and we can fuse, nature and matter already plays that game. But I am not sure there will be a point where everything worth knowing will be known. In the terrestrial realm (the left hypostases, the one without the *, like G) we will forever scratch the surface. And the right hypostases, like G*, are a sort of promise of an inexhaustible collection of bigger and bigger surprises, in the terrestrial realm and perhaps beyond). On the contrary, the more we will know, the more we will be aware of the ignorance. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
