Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-16 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The point is that with the step 3 protocol, you (the H-guy) can never predict among {W, M}, if the result will be I feel being the W-man, or I feel being the M-man. That's because neither will happen, however I the

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Oct 2013, at 16:46, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The point is that with the step 3 protocol, you (the H-guy) can never predict among {W, M}, if the result will be I feel being the W-man, or I feel being the M-man.

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-16 Thread LizR
Here's an etext! Happy hunting :) http://ia700700.us.archive.org/18/items/QuantumElectrodynamics/Feynman-QuantumElectrodynamics.pdf On 17 October 2013 10:33, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Oct 2013, at 16:46, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Bruno Marchal

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-15 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: I agree that if that one bit of information that they both see is not identical then the 2 men are no longer identical either and it becomes

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-15 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 5:39 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: Alright, but this again leaves us at a crossroad: 1) You believe that teleportation is fundamentally impossible No. 2) You believe that teleportation is possible Yes. in which case you accept the thought

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-15 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/10/15 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 5:39 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: Alright, but this again leaves us at a crossroad: 1) You believe that teleportation is fundamentally impossible No. 2) You believe that teleportation is possible

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-15 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 3:59 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: what you say confirms that both the W-man and the M-man will assess that they were unable to predict the result of opening the door Bruno I really didn't need your help on that, I already knew that I can't always

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-15 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: Are you saying that John Clark after going through a (duplicating teleporter cannot use anymore the indexical 'I' when talking about himself No. me myself and I John K Clark -- You received this message because

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Oct 2013, at 17:18, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 3:59 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: what you say confirms that both the W-man and the M-man will assess that they were unable to predict the result of opening the door Bruno I really didn't need your help

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Oct 2013, at 18:58, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: if you agree that each copy (the W-man, and the M-man) get one bit of information, I agree that if that one bit of information that they both see is not identical

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Oct 2013, at 20:14, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 6:58 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: if you agree that each copy (the W-man, and the M-man) get one bit of information, I

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Oct 2013, at 00:10, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 6:58 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-14 Thread Telmo Menezes
Dear John, in spite of my reluctance to spend time and energy on that nightmare of teleportation-related follies - (probably a result of too heavy dinners after which Q-physicists could not sleep/relax) - and with no intention to protect John Clark (a decent partner anyway) I may draw a thick

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-14 Thread John Mikes
Telmo, entering sci-fi makes the discussion irrelevant. what if... can e anything I want to show (I almost wrote: prove). I am also against 'thought experiments' - designed to PROVE things unreal (=not experienced in real life) - like e.g. the EPR etc., involving 'unfacts'. By long back-and-forth

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-14 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: I agree that if that one bit of information that they both see is not identical then the 2 men are no longer identical either and it becomes justified to give them different names. Ok, so you then also have to

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-13 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: if you agree that each copy (the W-man, and the M-man) get one bit of information, I agree that if that one bit of information that they both see is not identical then the 2 men are no longer identical either and it

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-13 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 6:58 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: if you agree that each copy (the W-man, and the M-man) get one bit of information, I agree that if that one bit of information that they both

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-13 Thread John Mikes
Dear Telmo, in spite of my reluctance to spend time and energy on that nightmare of teleportation-related follies - (probably a result of too heavy dinners after which Q-physicists could not sleep/relax) - and with no intention to protect John Clark (a decent partner anyway) I may draw a thick

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-13 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 6:58 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: if you agree that each copy (the W-man, and the M-man) get one

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Oct 2013, at 20:35, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The question is will he turn into the Moscow Man or the Washington Man, Yes. Thank you! and that depends on one thing and one thing only, what information he

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Oct 2013, at 22:36, LizR wrote: Both M and W man would have a continuous feeling of identity with H man. I don't see that you two really have opposing viewpoints, although as usual I may be missing something. No I agree. Clark does understand the 1-indeterminacy, as he betrayed by

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2013, at 19:23, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: [your] body-copy will be in two places, [you] can feel to be in only one place. If the copies are really identical then you feel to be in only one place (insofar as

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
with Aristotle theology. Best, Bruno All the best Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 15:36:12 -0700 From: meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? On 10/9/2013 10:35 AM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, meekerdb meeke

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Oct 2013, at 03:37, LizR wrote: If Helsinki man understands the situation, he will assign a 100% probability to him being duplicated and ending in both places. Similarly a physicist who believes in MWI will assign a 100% probability to him splitting and observing all possible

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
of view involved. Bruno Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:35:56 +1300 Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? From: lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com I still think this is quibbling. I at least believe I know what Bruno means when he asks H-man to assign

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-10 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The question is will he turn into the Moscow Man or the Washington Man, Yes. Thank you! and that depends on one thing and one thing only, what information he receives. Not at all. What do you mean not at all?!

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-10 Thread LizR
Both M and W man would have a continuous feeling of identity with H man. I don't see that you two really have opposing viewpoints, although as usual I may be missing something. Of course if the brain can't be considered digital at any level (as Kermit suggests) then this is actually impossible,

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-10 Thread LizR
On 11 October 2013 13:06, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/10/2013 1:36 PM, LizR wrote: Both M and W man would have a continuous feeling of identity with H man. I don't see that you two really have opposing viewpoints, although as usual I may be missing something. Of course if

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-10 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On 10 October 2013 12:25, chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Bruno I don't see why. There is a chance of 1/2 to feel oneself in M, and of 1/2 to feel oneself in W, but the probability is 1 (assuming comp, the protocol, etc.) to find oneself alive. This begs the question. And the

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-10 Thread meekerdb
On 10/10/2013 5:36 PM, LizR wrote: On 11 October 2013 13:06, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/10/2013 1:36 PM, LizR wrote: Both M and W man would have a continuous feeling of identity with H man. I don't see that you two really have

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-09 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: [your] body-copy will be in two places, [you] can feel to be in only one place. If the copies are really identical then you feel to be in only one place (insofar as spatial position has any meaning when talking about

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-09 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: How do you explain quantum mechanical probabilities in the Many Worlds interpretation? Not very well, assigning probabilities is unquestionably the weakest part of the Many Worlds theory. True, Everett derived the Born Rule

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-09 Thread LizR
On 10 October 2013 06:35, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: The Many Worlds interpretation is the best bad explanation of why Quantum Mechanics works. Nicely summed up! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-09 Thread meekerdb
On 10/9/2013 10:35 AM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: How do you explain quantum mechanical probabilities in the Many Worlds interpretation? Not very well, assigning probabilities is unquestionably the

RE: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-09 Thread chris peck
:12 -0700 From: meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? On 10/9/2013 10:35 AM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-09 Thread LizR
If Helsinki man understands the situation, he will assign a 100% probability to him being duplicated and ending in both places. Similarly a physicist who believes in MWI will assign a 100% probability to him splitting and observing all possible outcomes. This is not, however, how people normally

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-09 Thread meekerdb
On 10/9/2013 6:37 PM, LizR wrote: If Helsinki man understands the situation, he will assign a 100% probability to him being duplicated and ending in both places. Similarly a physicist who believes in MWI will assign a 100% probability to him splitting and observing all possible outcomes. This

RE: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-09 Thread chris peck
that, or I am not a 'comp practitioner' would not say 'yes doctor' and my attitudes reflect 'folk psychology'. All the best Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 14:37:12 +1300 Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? From: lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com If Helsinki man

RE: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-09 Thread chris peck
, there maybe issues whenever irrational numbers appear in denominators. 1/PI vs. 1-1/PI as you have said before. All the best. From: chris_peck...@hotmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: What gives philosophers a bad name? Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 02:21:01 + Hi Liz

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-09 Thread LizR
I still think this is quibbling. I at least believe I know what Bruno means when he asks H-man to assign a probability to his chances of appearing in Moscow. Perhaps Bruno is being sloppy in talking about probabilities, because the whole situation is deterministic, but it does at least give a

RE: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-09 Thread chris peck
Hi Liz Oh dear, I think I will go and lie down now. (Or then again, I won't...) Precisely. Being a true MWI believer you can be certain of both. :) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:35:56 +1300 Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? From: lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-09 Thread LizR
...)* Precisely. Being a true MWI believer you can be certain of both. :) -- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:35:56 +1300 Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? From: lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com I still think this is quibbling. I at least

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Oct 2013, at 18:23, John Clark wrote: Pointless unless you think it is a virtue to quite literally know what you are talking about. Bruno keeps throwing around words like I and you and he and it is very clear that Bruno doesn't know what those words mean in a world with

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Oct 2013, at 19:38, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:50 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Rhetorical tricks my ass! These are details of profound importance simply glossed over with the slapdash use of personal pronouns. And that's pretty damn sloppy for a

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi John, Bruno, I tried to control my mouse for a long time The M guy is NOT the Y guy, when he remembers having been the Y guy. Who is the Y guy? I guess you mean the guy in Helsinki. Yes, you said it many times, but NOW again! Has this list no consequential resolution? Some

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-08 Thread Telmo Menezes
to the doctor because what the doctor is going to do to you happens all the time anyway. I think. Telmo. From: allco...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:03:53 +0200 Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? To: everything-list@googlegroups.com

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-08 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: You are spitting non-sense... that's not what is asked. He will do *both* from a 3rd POV but each Bruno can only live *ONE* stream of consciousness which is *either* M or W, it's not both. So before duplication,

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Oct 2013, at 18:05, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: You are spitting non-sense... that's not what is asked. He will do *both* from a 3rd POV but each Bruno can only live *ONE* stream of consciousness which is

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-08 Thread meekerdb
On 10/8/2013 9:05 AM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: You are spitting non-sense... that's not what is asked. He will do *both* from a 3rd POV but each Bruno can only live *ONE* stream of

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-08 Thread LizR
On 9 October 2013 06:19, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/8/2013 9:05 AM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: You are spitting non-sense... that's not what is asked. He will do *both* from a 3rd POV but each Bruno can

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-08 Thread meekerdb
On 10/8/2013 1:50 PM, LizR wrote: On 9 October 2013 06:19, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/8/2013 9:05 AM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: You

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-08 Thread meekerdb
On 10/8/2013 1:50 PM, LizR wrote: That is the $64000 question! Incidentally I haven't heard anyone use that expression in thirty years. But I'm old enough to remember when Johnny Carson was the quiz master on the radio program The $64 Question. How old are you Liz? Brent -- You received

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-08 Thread LizR
On 9 October 2013 10:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/8/2013 1:50 PM, LizR wrote: That is the $64000 question! Incidentally I haven't heard anyone use that expression in thirty years. But I'm old enough to remember when Johnny Carson was the quiz master on the radio program

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Oct 2013, at 19:03, meekerdb wrote: On 10/6/2013 12:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Oct 2013, at 19:55, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: you have agreed that all bruno marchal are the original one (a case where Leibniz

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Oct 2013, at 19:48, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The M-guy is the H-guy (the M-guy remembers having been the H-guy) The H-guy turns into the M-guy, but they are not identical just as you are not identical with the Bruno

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
will be in Moscow (resp. Washington).” All the best Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 17:45:48 -0700 From: meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? On 10/6/2013 1:48 PM, LizR wrote: On 7 October 2013 06:48, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Oct 2013, at 22:48, LizR wrote: On 7 October 2013 06:48, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The M-guy is the H-guy (the M-guy remembers having been the H-guy) The H-guy turns into the M-guy, but they are

RE: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread chris peck
...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:34:19 +0200 On 06 Oct 2013, at 22:48, LizR wrote:On 7 October 2013 06:48, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread Quentin Anciaux
...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:34:19 +0200 On 06 Oct 2013, at 22:48, LizR wrote: On 7 October 2013 06:48, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc

RE: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread chris peck
...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:03:53 +0200 Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 2013/10/7 chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com Hi Bruno Are you saying that the step 3 would provide a logical reason to say no to the doctor

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread Telmo Menezes
to do to you happens all the time anyway. I think. Telmo. From: allco...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:03:53 +0200 Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 2013/10/7 chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
with some talk given by people having introspective experiences. Best regards, Bruno regards From: marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:34:19 +0200 On 06 Oct 2013, at 22:48, LizR wrote: On 7 October

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 4:48 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: The H-guy turns into the M-guy, but they are not identical just as you are not identical with the Bruno Marchal of yesterday. This is true, but it's also something Bruno has said many times. Then Bruno is not always wrong. If

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/10/7 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 4:48 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: The H-guy turns into the M-guy, but they are not identical just as you are not identical with the Bruno Marchal of yesterday. This is true, but it's also something Bruno has said many

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:50 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Rhetorical tricks my ass! These are details of profound importance simply glossed over with the slapdash use of personal pronouns. And that's pretty damn sloppy for a mathematician. That's again an unconvincing

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread meekerdb
: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:03:53 +0200 Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name? To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 2013/10/7 chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com Hi Bruno Are you saying that the step 3 would provide a logical reason to say no to the doctor, and thus abandoning comp

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread John Mikes
Bruno, I tried to control my mouse for a long time The M guy is NOT the Y guy, when he remembers having been the Y guy. Yes, you said it many times, but NOW again! Has this list no consequential resolution? Some people seem to have inexhaustible patience! It was in the past and in the

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread meekerdb
On 10/7/2013 1:32 PM, John Mikes wrote: Bruno, I tried to control my mouse for a long time The M guy is NOT the Y guy, when he remembers having been the Y guy. Yes, you said it many times, but NOW again! Has this list no consequential resolution? Some people seem to have inexhaustible

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread John Mikes
M On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 4:38 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/7/2013 1:32 PM, John Mikes wrote: Bruno, I tried to control my mouse for a long time The M guy is NOT the Y guy, when he remembers having been the Y guy. Yes, you said it many times, but NOW again! Has this

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-07 Thread LizR
Why is there such a huge argument about this duplication chamber business? It seems to be not getting anywhere. Could you perhaps go back to the original statement of step 3 and use that to point out what is wrong? From memory step 3 was - Helsinki man is teleported to both Washington and Moscow.

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-06 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Oct 2013, at 19:55, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: you have agreed that all bruno marchal are the original one (a case where Leibniz identity rule fails, If you're talking about Leibniz Identity of indiscernibles it most

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-06 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Oct 2013, at 01:29, Russell Standish wrote: On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 10:34:11AM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Oct 2013, at 10:05, Russell Standish wrote: I get that Bp is the statement that I can prove p, and that Bp p is the statement that I know p (assuming Theatetus, of

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-06 Thread meekerdb
On 10/6/2013 12:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Oct 2013, at 19:55, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: you have agreed that all bruno marchal are the original one (a case where Leibniz identity rule

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-06 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The M-guy is the H-guy (the M-guy remembers having been the H-guy) The H-guy turns into the M-guy, but they are not identical just as you are not identical with the Bruno Marchal of yesterday. The W-guy is the H-guy

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-06 Thread LizR
On 7 October 2013 06:48, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The M-guy is the H-guy (the M-guy remembers having been the H-guy) The H-guy turns into the M-guy, but they are not identical just as you are not

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-06 Thread meekerdb
On 10/6/2013 1:48 PM, LizR wrote: On 7 October 2013 06:48, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The M-guy is the H-guy (the M-guy remembers having

RE: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-06 Thread chris peck
changes for the experiencer, it is reasonable to ascribe a probability of ½ to the event “I will be in Moscow (resp. Washington).” All the best Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 17:45:48 -0700 From: meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad name

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 04 Oct 2013, at 20:00, meekerdb wrote: On 10/4/2013 7:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Physical time, on the contrary is most plausibly a quantum notion, and should normally emerge (assuming comp) from the interference of all computations + the stable first person (plural) points of view.

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Oct 2013, at 01:16, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 04:51:02PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: Read AUDA, where you can find the mathematical definition for each pronouns, based on Kleene's recursion theorem (using the Dx = xx trick, which I promised to do in term of

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-05 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 09:40:18AM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Oct 2013, at 01:16, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 04:51:02PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: Read AUDA, where you can find the mathematical definition for each pronouns, based on Kleene's recursion theorem

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Oct 2013, at 10:05, Russell Standish wrote: On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 09:40:18AM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Oct 2013, at 01:16, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 04:51:02PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: Read AUDA, where you can find the mathematical definition for

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-05 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: the coin throw was random so you ended up in Moscow rather than Washington for no reason at all, but that's OK because there is no law of logic that demands every event have a cause. The point is that in this case the

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-05 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 5:05 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: the coin throw was random so you ended up in Moscow rather than Washington for no reason at all, but that's OK because there is no law of logic that

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Oct 2013, at 17:05, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: the coin throw was random so you ended up in Moscow rather than Washington for no reason at all, but that's OK because there is no law of logic that demands every event

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-05 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Personal pronouns with no referent You never made any assertion explicit. Quote a passage of me with a personal pronoun without referent. The following is far far from complete, this just gives a taste of the

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-05 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: you have agreed that all bruno marchal are the original one (a case where Leibniz identity rule fails, If you're talking about Leibniz Identity of indiscernibles it most certainly has NOT failed. If the original and the

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-05 Thread meekerdb
On 10/5/2013 1:05 AM, Russell Standish wrote: On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 09:40:18AM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Oct 2013, at 01:16, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 04:51:02PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: Read AUDA, where you can find the mathematical definition for each

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-05 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 10:34:11AM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Oct 2013, at 10:05, Russell Standish wrote: I get that Bp is the statement that I can prove p, and that Bp p is the statement that I know p (assuming Theatetus, of course), but in both cases, I would say the pronoun I

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Oct 2013, at 16:03, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 3:43 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 01 Oct 2013, at 19:34, meekerdb wrote: On 10/1/2013 7:13 AM, David Nyman wrote: However, on reflection, this is not what one should deduce from the logic as set out.

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Oct 2013, at 19:48, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: philosophically my low-tech experiment works just as well and is just as uninformative as your hi-tech version. Not at all. In your low tech (using a coin), you get an indeterminacy

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Oct 2013, at 01:38, chris peck wrote: Hi Bruno [JC] Because step 3 sucks. [Bruno] Why? You have not yet make a convincing point on this. His point is convincing me. Could you explain it? Bruno regards. Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 23:18:07 +0200 Subject: Re: What gives

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Oct 2013, at 02:19, LizR wrote: On 3 October 2013 13:15, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Interestingly it appears that most coin tosses may be quantum random, arXiv:1212.0953v1 [gr-qc] (snip) I say most because I know that magicians train themselves to be able to flip a coin

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Oct 2013, at 17:51, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The origin of the indeterminacies is the random use of personal pronouns with no clear referents by Bruno Marchal such that all questions like what is the probability I will do this or

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Oct 2013, at 23:18, LizR wrote: On 4 October 2013 05:59, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 , LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: What question about personal identity is indeterminate? There is a 100% chance that the Helsinki man will turn into the Moscow man

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Oct 2013, at 19:28, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 6:59 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 , LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: What question about personal identity is indeterminate? There is a 100% chance that the Helsinki man

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
on the conclusion (about the success of the prediction) contained in all diaries. Bruno --- Original Message --- From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com Sent: 4 October 2013 7:20 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com, Charles Goodwin charlesrobertgood...@gmail.com Subject: Re: What gives philosophers a bad

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-04 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 5:18 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: From the point of view of Moscow man, say, it appears (retrospectively, at least) that he had a 50-50 chance of going to either place. Retrospective probability? In Many worlds and in these duplicating chamber thought experiments

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-04 Thread meekerdb
On 10/4/2013 7:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Physical time, on the contrary is most plausibly a quantum notion, and should normally emerge (assuming comp) from the interference of all computations + the stable first person (plural) points of view. I don't think physical time is even a single

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-04 Thread Russell Standish
On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 04:51:02PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: Read AUDA, where you can find the mathematical definition for each pronouns, based on Kleene's recursion theorem (using the Dx = xx trick, which I promised to do in term of numbers, phi_i, W_i, etc. but 99,999% will find the use

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-10-03 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On 3 Oct 2013, at 11:12 am, chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Liz Is there something wrong with quantum indeterminacy? Apart from the fact the MWI removes it? And that that is the point of MWI? And that probability questions in MWI are notoriously thorny? This is why

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