Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-11 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2013 9:26 AM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? I also agree that the notions of free will and qualia are two different

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-11 Thread meekerdb
On 9/11/2013 5:19 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: I don't think that argument holds water. I can't exclude it of course; unlike some around here I know I don't know; however it does not seem to me that this is an inevitable result of the mechanics of processing choice... of making comparisons,

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-06 Thread chris peck
it, so I'm assuming you read it: ...I'm arguing that there is no illusion of free will... Could I have been any clearer? All the best Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 21:30:47 -0700 From: meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-06 Thread John Clark
I also agree that the notions of free will and qualia are two different things. Yes, they are two very different things; one is gibberish and the other is not. *to argue that “free will”, “self-awareness” etc. are just noise [...] * Only a fool would say self-awareness is just noise, and

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-06 Thread John Clark
You cannot say you meditate on choices and make decisions and then in the next breath say that we are deterministic. Why the hell not?! Either we are programs – in which case given a knowledge of our algorithms our behavior and outcomes should be predictable based on a knowledge of some

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-06 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 9:31 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On 9/5/2013 8:34 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-05 Thread chris peck
@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 17:36:17 -0700 From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 4:41 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-05 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:13 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: while consciousness may just the data processing feels, there are obviously going to be different feelings about different data processing (e.g. hope, fear, lust,...) Yes. So I think the interesting question is which

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-05 Thread Richard Ruquist
-- From: cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 17:36:17 -0700 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *meekerdb

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-05 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/9/5 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:13 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: while consciousness may just the data processing feels, there are obviously going to be different feelings about different data processing (e.g. hope, fear, lust,...) Yes. So

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-05 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Coercion is by persons, not by object or logical things... So if I were shipwrecked on a desert island then no matter how much I hated it there and wanted to get back home I would have complete and absolute free will, but if I ever

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-05 Thread meekerdb
On 9/5/2013 10:30 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: Coercion is by persons, not by object or logical things... So if I were shipwrecked on a desert island then no matter how much I hated it there and wanted

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-05 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/9/5 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Coercion is by persons, not by object or logical things... So if I were shipwrecked on a desert island then no matter how much I hated it there and wanted to get back home I would have

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-05 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of chris peck Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 7:30 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? Hi Chris I also do not KNOW whether

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-05 Thread meekerdb
On 9/5/2013 8:34 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: *From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *chris peck *Sent:* Thursday, September 05, 2013 7:30 AM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* RE: When will a computer pass the Turing

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 04 Sep 2013, at 01:43, meekerdb wrote: On 9/3/2013 3:43 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: By the way the brain produces high fidelity illusions for us most of our waking lives. For example the way we perceive our sight is very different from the intermittent stream of neural signals that

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Sep 2013, at 18:23, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: indeed free does not add much to the will, except to emphasize a local freedom degrees spectrum. It doesn't even do that. Will is the set of things I want to do, It is

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-04 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 4:43 PM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On 9/3/2013 3:43 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: By the way the brain produces high

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-04 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: ** Can not comment, don't know what ASCII sequence free will means. You are merely being argumentative here. I AM NEVER ARGUMENTATIVE! You certainly do have a very clear idea of the sensations you experience

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-04 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Assuming comp it is absolutely undecidable if our universe (if it exists) is enumerable or not enumerable, I make no assumptions whatsoever regarding comp, I never touch the stuff; but if time and space are quantized (a

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-04 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/9/4 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: ** Can not comment, don't know what ASCII sequence free will means. You are merely being argumentative here. I AM NEVER ARGUMENTATIVE! You certainly do have a very

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-04 Thread meekerdb
On 9/4/2013 9:58 AM, John Clark wrote: If consciousness is fundamental, and I think it probably is, then after saying that consciousness is the way data feels when it is being processed there is simply nothing more to say on the subject, if there were then it wouldn't be fundamental. I don't

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-04 Thread meekerdb
On 9/4/2013 10:00 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: *From:* meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Tuesday, September 3, 2013 4:43 PM *Subject:* Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On 9/3/2013 3:43 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: By the way the brain

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-04 Thread Terren Suydam
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:22 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You're still looking at it backwards, as though there were some alternative that would be *really real* and not an illusion; as though a video camera just recording everything would capture the reall real and the would

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-04 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2013 12:22 PM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On 9/4/2013 10:00 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: meekerdb mailto:meeke

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-04 Thread meekerdb
On 9/4/2013 2:55 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Our brain's are supplying us with our reality and two people immersed in the same environment will often come away with different descriptions of that environment and will experience different realities when immersed in that environmental stream of

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-04 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 4:41 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On 9/4/2013 2:55 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 5:24 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Free will is related to the issue of determinism -- could a very powerful computer precisely predict my future behaviour? Yes, but only if the computer

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread meekerdb
On 9/3/2013 3:48 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 5:24 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Free will is related to the issue of determinism -- could a very powerful computer precisely predict my future

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: If not then my actions could not be predicted because they happened for no reason, they were random. Or because of the halting problem, The halting problem involves predictability not determinism; a Turing Machine is 100%

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Sep 2013, at 17:24, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Free will is related to the issue of determinism -- could a very powerful computer precisely predict my future behaviour? Yes, but only if the computer didn't tell me what it

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: indeed free does not add much to the will, except to emphasize a local freedom degrees spectrum. It doesn't even do that. Will is the set of things I want to do, but some of those things may not be physically possible,

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 8:37 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: do you think I

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 2:31 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Free will is related to the issue of determinism -- could a very powerful computer precisely predict my future behaviour? Yes, but only if the computer didn't tell me what it predicted beforehand, because then the

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: I think your position is ridiculous. Evolution has clearly invested a lot of energy into “free will” Can not comment, don't know what ASCII sequence free will means. “self-awareness”, and other qualia that

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of chris peck Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 8:12 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? Hi Chris if in the end it is an infinitely regressing hall of mirrors, a cosmic

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
  From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 10:43 AM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On 9/3/2013 9:27 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Evolution did not go through all

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread meekerdb
On 9/3/2013 9:27 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Evolution did not go through all the trouble and to expend all the energy our species expends on creating this sensation within ourselves -- whether it is actually real or an elaborate (and evolutionarily costly adaptation) to carefully create this

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 10:03 AM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Dennis Ochei
...@verizon.net *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Tuesday, September 3, 2013 10:43 AM *Subject:* Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On 9/3/2013 9:27 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Evolution did not go through all the trouble and to expend all the energy our species expends

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread meekerdb
On 9/3/2013 10:54 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: *From:* meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Tuesday, September 3, 2013 10:43 AM *Subject:* Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On 9/3/2013 9:27 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Evolution did not go

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 12:38 PM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? Of course it didn't.  In order to avoid

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 12:38 PM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? Of course it didn't.  In order to avoid the impression of free will evolution would have had to provide us with conscious perception

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread meekerdb
On 9/3/2013 3:43 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: By the way the brain produces high fidelity illusions for us most of our waking lives. For example the way we perceive our sight is very different from the intermittent stream of neural signals that begin their journey from our retinas. Did you know

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-02 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Free will is related to the issue of determinism -- could a very powerful computer precisely predict my future behaviour? Yes, but only if the computer didn't tell me what it predicted beforehand, because then the computer's

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-02 Thread meekerdb
On 9/2/2013 8:24 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com mailto:te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Free will is related to the issue of determinism -- could a very powerful computer precisely predict my future behaviour? Yes, but only if the

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-01 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Aug 31, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: at the end of the day I am a dualist I too am a dualist. I believe that John K Clark's brain and even his entire body is not identical with John K Clark, and I believe that because I believe in something far far more fundamental, nouns and adjectives

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-01 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: I have noticed a disturbing trend, the use of the word emergent as a excuse for not thinking. Sometimes that might be the case. Here, it's context. Free will is a human concept. That is incorrect,free will is not a human

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-01 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 6:21 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: I have noticed a disturbing trend, the use of the word emergent as a excuse for not thinking. Sometimes that might be the case. Here, it's context.

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-31 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: do you think I am trying to pretend that I am deterministic within my own self? I think you believe you are not deterministic and also not not deterministic, which is equivalent to saying I think you believe in

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-31 Thread spudboy100
then somebody chatting with a program, about the weather in Blackford Lancashire, and fooling the human. Mitch -Original Message- From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Aug 31, 2013 11:37 am Subject: Re: When will a computer pass

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
The example of heliocentric vs geocentric views is a good one to show the limitation of the reductionist impulse. While Earth happens to be a part of a heliocentric topology, the fact that it is easy to mistake the Sun for the more 'moving object' is not in any way an endorsement of the

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-31 Thread spudboy100
-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Aug 31, 2013 1:12 pm Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? Lets jump ahead of the logic and technology, and presume a successful digital imitation of the human brain in several decades. More than the Turing Test, assuming

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-31 Thread meekerdb
On 8/31/2013 10:12 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Lets jump ahead of the logic and technology, and presume a successful digital imitation of the human brain in several decades. More than the Turing Test, assuming that no programmer or developer inserts a complex program, made to fool human

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-31 Thread Telmo Menezes
will a computer pass the Turing Test? Lets jump ahead of the logic and technology, and presume a successful digital imitation of the human brain in several decades. More than the Turing Test, assuming that no programmer or developer inserts a complex program, made to fool human observers, would

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-30 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: We can hypothesize causality and demonstrate a probability perhaps, and there may in fact exist a causal relationship. Then it's deterministic. But if it cannot be demonstrated and traced all the way down the incredibly

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-30 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 12:01 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On 24 Aug 2013, at 17:57, Quentin Anciaux

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-30 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: What happens to a universal Turing machine, if the tape itself is being written by some other process The same thing that happens to you when you get pushed around by the external environment. John K Clark --

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-30 Thread Chris de Morsella
: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: What happens to a universal Turing machine, if the tape itself is being written by some other process The same thing that happens to you when you get pushed around

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-30 Thread chris peck
that people who have grown up in those cultures are possessed of this 'cosmic illusion', yet their day to day phenomenology will be more or less the same as yours or mine. All the best From: cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 24 Aug 2013, at 17:57, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/8/24 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote The computer requires a substrate in which to operate upon -- the CPU chips for example are what our computers

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-29 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote If X = Y AND Y = Z then X = Z This is also logically true, but also has no substantial bearing on how the dynamic processes by which the mind arises from the 86 billion neuron and 100 trillion connection two phase

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-29 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: It is, as always, a confusion of emergence levels. My will is an emergent concept, I have noticed a disturbing trend, the use of the word emergent as a excuse for not thinking. that has no relevance to the microscopic realm

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-29 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 6:49 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: It is, as always, a confusion of emergence levels. My will is an emergent concept, I have noticed a disturbing trend, the use of the word emergent as

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-29 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:49 AM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Wed, Aug 28, 2013  Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-28 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 2:52 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 8/27/2013 3:55 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:08 AM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-28 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: Bullshit. Axioms don't need proof, and the most fundamental axiom in all of logic is that X is Y or X is not Y. Everything else is built on top of that. And only somebody who was absolutely desperate to prove the

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-28 Thread Chris de Morsella
  From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net [snip] Although reductionism has recently received a lot of bad press from supermarket tabloids and new age gurus the fact remains that if

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-28 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 11:17 PM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 2:52 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 8/27

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-28 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com   On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. Axioms don't need proof, and the most fundamental axiom in all of logic is that X is Y or X is not Y.  Everything else is

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-28 Thread Russell Standish
On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 12:05:27PM -0700, Chris de Morsella wrote: John keeps insisting that X is Y or X is not Y. True, but so what? It does not provide any great insight into how the brain works as a dynamic entity. Basically based on reading his posts on the subject what I am stating is

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-27 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: you cannot prove that things in the brain happen because of some proximate definable and identifiable cause or otherwise they must therefore result by a completely random process. Bullshit. Axioms don't need proof, and the

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-27 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:08 AM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Mon, Aug 26, 2013  Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: you

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-27 Thread meekerdb
On 8/27/2013 3:55 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: *From:* John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:08 AM *Subject:* Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-26 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: I say quite clearly that and I repeat -- I am not interested in nor do I much care whether humans are superior or inferior to computers. Take me at my word when I say I don’t really care one way or the other, that

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-26 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 10:55 AM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-25 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 05:01:48PM -0700, Chris de Morsella wrote: I don't see what the sense of self has to do with it... Hi Russell ~ In the sense, that by having a sense of self we have inescapably already separated our self from any possibility of seeing from the perspective of a

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-25 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: All measurable processes – including information processing -- happen over and require for their operations some physical substrate. My point, which I believe either you may have missed or you are dodging is

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-25 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 9:18 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Chris de

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-25 Thread Chris de Morsella
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 05:01:48PM -0700, Chris de Morsella wrote: I don't see what the sense of self has to do with it... Hi Russell ~ In the sense,

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-24 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/8/24 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com ** ** ** ** *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John Clark *Sent:* Friday, August 23, 2013 12:58 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: When will a computer

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-24 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote The computer requires a substrate in which to operate upon -- the CPU chips for example are what our computers operate on. I know of no computer that does not require this external structured environment The

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-24 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/8/24 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote The computer requires a substrate in which to operate upon -- the CPU chips for example are what our computers operate on. I know of no computer that does not require

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-24 Thread Chris de Morsella
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:34 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote The computer requires a substrate in which to operate upon -- the CPU chips for example are what our computers operate on. I know of no computer that does not require this external structured environment

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-24 Thread Russell Standish
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 08:34:02PM -0700, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 12:58 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: When will a computer

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-24 Thread Chris de Morsella
: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 08:34:02PM -0700, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 12:58 PM To: everything-list

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-23 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/8/23 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 8/21/2013 11:57 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/8/22 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 8/21/2013 11:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/8/22 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 8/21/2013 2:42 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Ok, and I'm

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-23 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: * If it's not random then it happened for a reason, and things happen in a computer for a reason too.* Sure, but the reason may not be amenable to being completely contained within the confines of a

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-23 Thread Alberto G. Corona
I AI the response is ever The next decade 2013/8/23 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: * If it's not random then it happened for a reason, and things happen in a computer for a reason too.* Sure, but the

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-23 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 05:10:05PM +0100, Telmo Menezes wrote: Bruno did not invent the term dovetailing nor is he the only person to use it in computer science. A simple google search will show you this. I know

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-23 Thread Chris de Morsella
be logically proved.   Cheers, -Chris     From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 10:48 AM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Chris

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-23 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Then there are only 2 possibilities: 1) The ultra computer that simulates our world changes from one state to the other for a reason; if so then our simulated computers which change from one state to the other for a

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-23 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/8/23 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Then there are only 2 possibilities: 1) The ultra computer that simulates our world changes from one state to the other for a reason; if so then our simulated computers which change

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-23 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: The computer requires a substrate in which to operate upon -- the CPU chips for example are what our computers operate on. I know of no computer that does not require this external structured environment The

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-23 Thread meekerdb
On 8/23/2013 11:05 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I AI the response is ever The next decade That's because as soon as a computer does what was formerly claimed to be possible only for human intellect, e.g. beat a world chess champion, prove a new theorem in mathematics, drive a car in

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-23 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 1:49 PM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On 8/23/2013 11:05 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I AI the response is ever The next decade That's because as soon

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-23 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 12:58 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Chris de

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-22 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/8/22 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 8/21/2013 2:42 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Ok, and I'm fascinated by the question of why we haven't found viable algorithms in that class yet -- although we know has a fact that it must exist, because our brains contain it. We haven't proved our

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-22 Thread meekerdb
On 8/21/2013 11:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/8/22 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net On 8/21/2013 2:42 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Ok, and I'm fascinated by the question of why we haven't found viable algorithms in that class yet -- although

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-08-22 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/8/22 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 8/21/2013 11:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/8/22 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 8/21/2013 2:42 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Ok, and I'm fascinated by the question of why we haven't found viable algorithms in that class yet -- although we

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