Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 22 Feb 2018, at 18:45, John Clark wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 7:21 AM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > ​> ​You are playing with word. “Comp” has been used as a shortcut for > computations since more than 20 years on

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-22 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 7:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > You are playing with word. “Comp” has been used as a shortcut for > computations since more than 20 years on this list. > ​I know what ​ ​ computations ​ ​ are and and know what computationalism is, but that is not

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 21 Feb 2018, at 19:07, John Clark wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > ​> ​But you betray yourself recently by defining comp by ​[blah blah] > > ​I have never in my like defined

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-21 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > But you betray yourself recently by defining comp by > ​[blah blah] > ​ I have never in my like defined "comp", I have often asked you to define your baby-talk word but have never received a coherent reply. ​> ​ >

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-21 Thread agrayson2000
Please tell us how you acquired such intimate knowledge of alien psychology. You seem convinced that since galactic empires haven't been detected, aliens do not exist. Why would they build a galactic empire? Share with us your knowledge of their psychology. TIA, AG On Saturday, February 3,

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-21 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 20 Feb 2018, at 00:54, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 6:48 AM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > ​​​>​>>​ the (conscious) mind comes from the relation between the brain and > truth >> >> ​>> ​​OK, but then

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-19 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 6:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​​ > ​> > ​>>​ > the (conscious) mind comes from the relation between the brain and truth > ​>> ​ >> ​OK, but then how do you figure >> ​ m >> ind does not come out of the brain >> ​?​ >> > ​> ​ > The conscious mind does

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-19 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/19/2018 3:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 19 Feb 2018, at 00:12, John Clark > wrote: On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 1:43 PM, Bruno Marchal >wrote: > ​>>​ mind

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-19 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 10:22:47 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 19 Feb 2018, at 13:13, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 5:46:16 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 18 Feb 2018, at 21:38, Lawrence Crowell

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 19 Feb 2018, at 13:13, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 5:46:16 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 18 Feb 2018, at 21:38, Lawrence Crowell > > wrote: >> >> On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-19 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 5:46:16 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 18 Feb 2018, at 21:38, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 9:57:37 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 10 Feb 2018, at 14:29, Lawrence Crowell

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 19 Feb 2018, at 00:12, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 1:43 PM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >​>>​ mind does not come out of the brain > > ​>> ​Then why does changing the brain change the mind > > ​>

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 18 Feb 2018, at 21:38, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 9:57:37 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 10 Feb 2018, at 14:29, Lawrence Crowell > > wrote: >> >> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-18 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 1:43 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >>> ​>>​ >>> mind does not come out of the brain >> >> > ​>> ​ >> Then why does changing the brain change the mind > > > ​> ​ > Because the (conscious) mind comes from the relation between the brain and > truth > ​OK,

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-18 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 9:57:37 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 10 Feb 2018, at 14:29, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 8:05:09 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:58:04 PM

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 13 Feb 2018, at 19:03, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > ​> ​mind does not come out of the brain > > ​Then why does changing the brain change the mind Because

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 10 Feb 2018, at 14:29, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 8:05:09 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:58:04 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > It occurred to me a case of hard emergence.

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-16 Thread Lawrence Crowell
Systems do not often scale linearly. I can't answer how the complexity of astro-structures would scale. To answer that definitively would require a bit of research and calculation. Even life has scale limitations, which is one reason Godzilla is not realistic. LC On Friday, February 16, 2018

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-16 Thread John Clark
Lawrence Crowell > *> I keep trying to implore the prospect that mega-tech programs most > likely do not scale in the linear fashion you keep advocating.* You keep saying it does not scale but you don’t say why. Life has certainly scaled ​ beautifully​ , it

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-16 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 8:38 PM, Lawrence Crowell < goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote: *> There are bacterial flagella and Eukaryotic flagella. Bacteria flagellum > is a single polypeptide chain. It is connected to a protein that protons > are pumped into. This induces the rotational

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-16 Thread agrayson2000
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 9:32:10 AM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > I keep trying to implore the prospect that mega-tech programs most likely > do not scale in the linear fashion you keep advocating. There might be > nanobots or von Neumann probes in this galaxy if they remain small

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-16 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: ​> ​ > > *What if nanotech *is* the filter? Then, the civilizations that survive​ > ​could be the ones that avoid that trap somehow.* ​ If Drexler style Nanotechnology had been developed anywhere in the galaxy that

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-15 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 10:48:54 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 3:07 PM, > wrote: > > *​> ​Mother Nature did come up with a wheel; a rotating tail on some >> specie. I forget its name. AG* >> > > The words > ​ ​ > that have slipped your

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-15 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List
and offers medical immortality. That's the hook. -Original Message- From: agrayson2000 <agrayson2...@gmail.com> To: Everything List <everything-list@googlegroups.com> Sent: Thu, Feb 15, 2018 3:55 pm Subject: Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter On Thursd

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-15 Thread agrayson2000
On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 12:16:52 PM UTC-7, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 9:48:54 AM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 3:07 PM, wrote: >> >> *​> ​Mother Nature did come up with a wheel; a rotating tail on

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-15 Thread agrayson2000
On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 9:48:54 AM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 3:07 PM, > wrote: > > *​> ​Mother Nature did come up with a wheel; a rotating tail on some >> specie. I forget its name. AG* >> > > The words > ​ ​ > that have slipped your

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-15 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 11:24 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 3:21 AM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > >> >> > >> the argument ignores the possibility that civilizations >> might be able to thrive for a very long time without ever expanding

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-15 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 3:07 PM, wrote: *​> ​Mother Nature did come up with a wheel; a rotating tail on some > specie. I forget its name. AG* > The words ​ ​ that have slipped your mind are ​ ​ "flagellum ​ ​ on ​ ​ bacteria" ​ ​ and its microscopic, that's why I said

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-14 Thread Brent Meeker
Having evolved in the hot climate of Africa humans are a mutation that lost hair and evolved sweat.  This allowed them to have great physical endurance in the heat and to run down prey. What I'd like to know is why some members of Homo sapiens refuse to learn what 400yrs of science has found

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-14 Thread agrayson2000
On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 11:26:30 AM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 , Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > >> *> we like to make comparisons between biological and molecular >> biological systems with nanotechnology, but there are

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-14 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 , Lawrence Crowell wrote: > *> we like to make comparisons between biological and molecular biological > systems with nanotechnology, but there are departures. * Yes there certainly are departures between biology and engineering because

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-14 Thread Lawrence Crowell
With biology the genes that express polypeptides do in a sense control things. Biology is not so much about control as it is about commensurate networks. We are in a time when aspects of the natural world are often compared to technology. For instance with Seth Lloyd we have the idea the

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-14 Thread Samiya Illias
Then how come the Homo sapiens are the rare creatures without any natural clothing, unlike almost all other creatures? Something to be apprehensive about: http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2018/01/the-cursed-tree.html > On 13-Feb-2018, at 10:06 PM, Brent Meeker wrote:

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-13 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 11:33:57 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > Hi Lawrence, hi John, > > > Sorry for the delay. I comment some answers in the same post. > > Lawrence, you say > > << > Hard emergence is either something really miraculous and thus not really > in the domain of

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-13 Thread agrayson2000
On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 11:51:17 AM UTC-7, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 11:36:36 AM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >> >> On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 11:18:37 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Lawrence Crowell <

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-13 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > mind does not come out of the brain ​Then why does changing the brain change the mind and changing the mind change the brain? John K Clark​ > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Lawrence, hi John, Sorry for the delay. I comment some answers in the same post. Lawrence, you say << Hard emergence is either something really miraculous and thus not really in the domain of physics, or it is something we might call a miracle because we really do not understand it. >>

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-13 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:53 PM, Lawrence Crowell < goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote: *​> ​Even if you have a mole of nanobots doing things, who is keeping track > of them to make sure they are doing what you want? * ​ You were ​ ​ constructed ​ ​ by a huge number of nanobots (also

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-12 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 5:08:46 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:36 PM, Lawrence Crowell < > goldenfield...@gmail.com > wrote: > > *​> ​We are faced with a number of prospects. The first is there is some >> limit to complexity that any intelligent being can

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-12 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:36 PM, Lawrence Crowell < goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote: *​> ​We are faced with a number of prospects. The first is there is some > limit to complexity that any intelligent being can manage.* > The smarter something is the more complexity it can handle ​ , ​

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-12 Thread agrayson2000
On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 11:36:36 AM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 11:18:37 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Lawrence Crowell < >> goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> ​> ​ >>> *If IGUS or ETI exist elsewhere, I

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-12 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 11:18:37 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Lawrence Crowell < > goldenfield...@gmail.com > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> *If IGUS or ETI exist elsewhere, I would argue that probably there are >> scaling limits to the powers such beings are able

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-12 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Lawrence Crowell < goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote: ​> ​ > *If IGUS or ETI exist elsewhere, I would argue that probably there are > scaling limits to the powers such beings are able to control. The universe > has matter in it, but it has an average density

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-12 Thread agrayson2000
On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 4:58:41 AM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > If IGUS or ETI exist elsewhere, I would argue that probably there are > scaling limits to the powers such beings are able to control. The universe > has matter in it, but it has an average density of 10^{-29}g/cm^3,

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-12 Thread Lawrence Crowell
If IGUS or ETI exist elsewhere, I would argue that probably there are scaling limits to the powers such beings are able to control. The universe has matter in it, but it has an average density of 10^{-29}g/cm^3, and the overwhelming percentage of matter in dense configurations is in stars that

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-11 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:58 PM, Lawrence Crowell < goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote: > * Most likely they evolved like us with neuro-networks adapted from some > natural condition and eventually as they progress they find they can no > longer manage things.* > ​When things get

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-11 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 3:15:43 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:20 AM, Lawrence Crowell < > goldenfield...@gmail.com > wrote: > > ​>​ >> Human expansion into virtual space is far greater than outer space. In >> fact with the end of the shuttle program we may

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-11 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 3:21 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > ​> ​ > the argument ignores the possibility that civilizations > might be able to thrive for a very long time without ever expanding > much beyond their original planet. ​I'm sorry but that argument just makes no

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-11 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:20 AM, Lawrence Crowell < goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote: ​>​ > Human expansion into virtual space is far greater than outer space. In > fact with the end of the shuttle program we may have passed what might be > called peak astronaut. The number of astronauts

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-11 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 2:35:51 AM UTC-6, telmo_menezes wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:42 PM, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > Hard emergence is either something really miraculous and thus not really > in > > the domain of physics, or it is something we

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-11 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 2:21:15 AM UTC-6, telmo_menezes wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 6:25 PM, John Clark > wrote: > > > > > > > Right, ET might prefer to become a > > navel gazer > > and spend eternity in the electronic equivalent of a crack house, but >

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-11 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:42 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > Hard emergence is either something really miraculous and thus not really in > the domain of physics, or it is something we might call a miracle because we > really do not understand it. For me, emergence

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-11 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 6:25 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:38 AM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > >> > >> To summarize the argument: >> >> 1. A sufficiently advanced civilization is bound to become a galactic >> civilization; >> 2. We do

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-10 Thread agrayson2000
On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 6:29:14 AM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 8:05:09 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:58:04 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >>> >>> It occurred to me a case of hard emergence.

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-10 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 8:05:09 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:58:04 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >> >> It occurred to me a case of hard emergence. The outcome of a quantum >> measurement is such. I have iterated how I think this is

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-09 Thread agrayson2000
On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:58:04 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > It occurred to me a case of hard emergence. The outcome of a quantum > measurement is such. I have iterated how I think this is connected to > self-reference, so I will not repeat that here. > It would be useful

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-09 Thread Lawrence Crowell
It occurred to me a case of hard emergence. The outcome of a quantum measurement is such. I have iterated how I think this is connected to self-reference, so I will not repeat that here. However, the outcome is completely random and has no causal basis. It emerges for no particular reason,

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-09 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > You might try to give at least one example of hard emergence ​ One molecule of water can't be wet but 6.02*10^ 23 molecules can be. And H2O at 31 degrees F has none of the properties of a liquid but at 33 degrees F

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-09 Thread Lawrence Crowell
Hard emergence is either something really miraculous and thus not really in the domain of physics, or it is something we might call a miracle because we really do not understand it. LC On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:28:49 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 7 Feb 2018, at 15:40, Lawrence

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 7 Feb 2018, at 15:40, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 6:52:27 AM UTC-6, telmo_menezes wrote: > On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 11:43 PM, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > It is interesting in some ways.

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-08 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 6:27:39 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 2/7/2018 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > To summarize the argument: > > > > 1. A sufficiently advanced civilization is bound to become a galactic > > civilization; > > 2. We do not observe a galactic civilization;

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread agrayson2000
On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 6:48:56 PM UTC-7, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 5:27:39 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2/7/2018 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> > To summarize the argument: >> > >> > 1. A sufficiently advanced civilization is

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread agrayson2000
On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 6:01:06 PM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> *It is not hard to see that at this rate we will trash out all forests by >> the end of this century.* >> > > ​ > Things

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread agrayson2000
On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 5:27:39 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote: > > > > On 2/7/2018 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > To summarize the argument: > > > > 1. A sufficiently advanced civilization is bound to become a galactic > > civilization; > > 2. We do not observe a galactic civilization;

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Lawrence Crowell < goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote: ​> ​ > *It is not hard to see that at this rate we will trash out all forests by > the end of this century.* > ​ Things are changing so fast I think its pointless to ​try to solve problems that won't

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/7/2018 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: To summarize the argument: 1. A sufficiently advanced civilization is bound to become a galactic civilization; 2. We do not observe a galactic civilization; 3. If other instances of life are found, this means that life is not so rare; 4. So it is

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 1:39:43 PM UTC-6, Samiya wrote: > > A reset event seems a necessity at the rate we are trashing the Earth! > Scripture has something to say about it as well. This might be of > interest: Smoke from the Sky >

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread agrayson2000
On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 1:11:44 PM UTC-7, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 9:13:42 AM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 4:04 PM, Lawrence Crowell < >> goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >>> ​*> * >>> *He​ [Freeman Dyson]​

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread agrayson2000
On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 9:13:42 AM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 4:04 PM, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > >> ​*> * >> *He​ [Freeman Dyson]​ did brilliant work on QED and other physics. The >> Dyson sphere is not one of his brilliant

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread Samiya Illias
A reset event seems a necessity at the rate we are trashing the Earth! Scripture has something to say about it as well. This might be of interest: Smoke from the Sky On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Lawrence Crowell <

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread Lawrence Crowell
IGUS = Information Gathering and Utilizing System. The future course of humanity is probably guided by maximum entropy principle. This is that systems will proceed to maximum entropy in minimal time. This is not that controversial for closed systems. Open systems tend to avoid this by being

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: ​> ​ > To summarize the argument: > > 1. A sufficiently advanced civilization is bound to become a galactic > civilization; > 2. We do not observe a galactic civilization; > 3. If other instances of life are found, this

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 10:03:55 AM UTC-6, telmo_menezes wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 3:40 PM, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 6:52:27 AM UTC-6, telmo_menezes wrote: > >> > >> On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 11:43 PM, Lawrence

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 4:04 PM, Lawrence Crowell < goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote: > ​*> * > *He​ [Freeman Dyson]​ did brilliant work on QED and other physics. The > Dyson sphere is not one of his brilliant ideas. He has also been on the > climate denial side, and continues to be as far

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 3:40 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 6:52:27 AM UTC-6, telmo_menezes wrote: >> >> On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 11:43 PM, Lawrence Crowell >> wrote: >> > It is interesting in some ways.

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 6:52:27 AM UTC-6, telmo_menezes wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 11:43 PM, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > It is interesting in some ways. However, it involves speculations on > things > > we have no knowledge of. > > > > The idea

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 11:43 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > It is interesting in some ways. However, it involves speculations on things > we have no knowledge of. > > The idea involves these filters. The one "behind us" involves the barrier to > intelligent life

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread Telmo Menezes
To summarize the argument: 1. A sufficiently advanced civilization is bound to become a galactic civilization; 2. We do not observe a galactic civilization; 3. If other instances of life are found, this means that life is not so rare; 4. So it is likely that there is a major obstacle that

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread Lawrence Crowell
A robot could do the actual measurement and the output might not have to be read by a conscious entity. Whether there is some conscious reckoning of these outcomes is not clear. It seems to me the most reasonable role of a conscious entity is in raising the question that requires these tests.

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-07 Thread agrayson2000
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:09:17 PM UTC-7, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 5:17:17 PM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 6:06 PM, wrote: >> >> ​> ​ >>> what do you know about their agendas? >> >> >> *FOR G* >>

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-06 Thread Brent Meeker
So you're back to Wigner's theory that consciousness collapses the wave-function?  Which of course raises the question of whether it needs to be a consciousness with a PhD or will an undergraduate  or a jellyfish do? Brent On 2/6/2018 1:04 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote: The only conceivable

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-06 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 12:26:02 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 7:50 PM, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> *The Dyson sphere is in my opinion one of the dumbest ideas around.* >> > > Freeman Dyson > ​ is not generally regarded as

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-06 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 7:50 PM, Lawrence Crowell < goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote: ​> ​ > *The Dyson sphere is in my opinion one of the dumbest ideas around.* > Freeman Dyson ​ is not generally regarded as a stupid man.​ > ​>* ​* > *Maybe I will qualify that, a solid shell enclosing a

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-06 Thread agrayson2000
On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 4:48:40 AM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 7:31:09 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> >> *IMO, FWIW, using religious fanatics to explain away possible alien >> sightings is nothing but a strawman argument. If you

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-06 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 7:31:09 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > *IMO, FWIW, using religious fanatics to explain away possible alien > sightings is nothing but a strawman argument. If you viewed the vaseideo > and honestly evaluated their observations as specious based on

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-05 Thread agrayson2000
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:20:16 PM UTC-7, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:05:39 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >> >> On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 12:23:47 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Monday, February 5, 2018 at

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-05 Thread agrayson2000
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:05:39 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 12:23:47 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 9:49:55 AM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 10:07 AM,

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-05 Thread agrayson2000
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 5:17:17 PM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 6:06 PM, wrote: > > ​> ​ >> what do you know about their agendas? > > > *FOR G* > *​OD'S SAKE!!*​ Haven't > you even > ​tried > to read any of the posts on this thread? > *I

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-05 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 12:23:47 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 9:49:55 AM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 10:07 AM, wrote: >> >> ​> ​ >>> I plead stupidity. I still don't get it. >>> >> >> ​Your plea

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-05 Thread agrayson2000
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 5:17:17 PM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 6:06 PM, wrote: > > ​> ​ >> what do you know about their agendas? > > > *FOR G* > *​OD'S SAKE!!*​ Haven't > you even > ​tried > to read any of the posts on this thread? > >

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-05 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 7:44:14 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > *​> ​a fairly weak signal in the megawatt range that we generate in most >> transmissions they will only reach 10 or a few 10s of light years

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-05 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 6:06 PM, wrote: ​> ​ > what do you know about their agendas? *FOR G* *​OD'S SAKE!!*​ Haven't you even ​tried to read any of the posts on this thread? > ​> ​ > they might be enthusiastic of diversity ​Who cares? It's irrelevant if ET is a

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-05 Thread agrayson2000
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 9:49:55 AM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 10:07 AM, > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> I plead stupidity. I still don't get it. >> > > ​Your plea is duly noted and entered into the court record. > > >> ​> ​ >> Why would the

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-05 Thread agrayson2000
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 9:49:55 AM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 10:07 AM, > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> I plead stupidity. I still don't get it. >> > > ​Your plea is duly noted and entered into the court record. > > >> ​> ​ >> Why would the

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-05 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 10:07 AM, wrote: ​> ​ > I plead stupidity. I still don't get it. > ​Your plea is duly noted and entered into the court record. > ​> ​ > Why would the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence imply doom for > humanity? > ​Ask the flying saucer

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-05 Thread agrayson2000
On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 10:21:00 AM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjtOGPJ0URM > > > John K Clark > I plead stupidity. I still don't get it. Why would the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence imply doom for humanity? TIA, AG -- You received this

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-04 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 Lawrence Crowell wrote: *​> ​a fairly weak signal in the megawatt range that we generate in most > transmissions they will only reach 10 or a few 10s of light years out.* ​ The Arecibo transmitter itself may have been in the megawatt range

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-04 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 8:40:48 AM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 12:15:16 AM UTC-7, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:45:16 PM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: >>> >>> >>> >> >> *I'll let LC reply. He was pretty

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-04 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 8:03:47 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 6:03:33 PM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 5:43 PM, Lawrence Crowell < >> goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >>> ​>​ >>> I suspect planets with

Re: Why Alien Life Would be our Doom - The Great Filter

2018-02-04 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:03:33 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 5:43 PM, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > >> ​>​ >> I suspect planets with complex life above that of prokaryotic-like life >> are few in number per galaxy. It is hard to

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