Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 May 2013, at 19:39, Stephen Paul King wrote: We should add that computationalism postulates that consciousness is a process that can be exactly specified by a recursively enumerable function. No? Well, OK, but with Church Thesis, we can just say computable function, or

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 May 2013, at 20:02, meekerdb wrote: I don't know. It would seem you would want to believe that if you were going to say yes to the doctor, since the doctor is relying functionalism to ensure the replacement works. But Bruno's UD computes all functions and he theorizes that 1p

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 May 2013, at 00:24, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2013 2:49 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Does the UD compute *all* functions or only those that are recursively enumerable? It computes all of them. It computes only the computable one. But it generates all inputs and streams, like in the

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 May 2013, at 23:49, Stephen Paul King wrote: Does the UD compute *all* functions or only those that are recursively enumerable? AFAIK, the latter, as a set, has a measure zero as a subset of the former. This is one reason why I worry about the viability of UDA (and AUDA), it

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 May 2013, at 00:30, Stephen Paul King wrote: So all possible functions are computed equally? ISTM that some functions would take an eternity to compute and that the number of such vastly outnumber the recursively enumerable ones. Non-computable function cannot be computed. But we

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 May 2013, at 00:57, Russell Standish wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 03:24:09PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2013 2:49 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Does the UD compute *all* functions or only those that are recursively enumerable? It computes all of them. Brent Sorry - it does

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 May 2013, at 22:41, John Mikes wrote: Brent: this back-and-forth is a marvelous game to go crazy. If I weren't me who else would be me and who whould I be? (Only for the IRS!) It points to me at those stupid sci-fi-s about transportation to Moskow/etc. - or another Universe, and

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-13 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 7:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/12/2013 9:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If your mom ate something different while pregnant with you, such that you developed with different atoms, does that mean someone else would have been born in your place and you

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-13 Thread meekerdb
On 5/13/2013 5:41 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 7:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/12/2013 9:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If your mom ate something different while pregnant with you, such that you developed with different atoms, does that mean someone else

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-13 Thread Stephen Paul King
We should add that computationalism postulates that consciousness is a process that can be exactly specified by a recursively enumerable function. No? On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:16 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/13/2013 5:41 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 7:05

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-13 Thread meekerdb
I don't know. It would seem you would want to believe that if you were going to say yes to the doctor, since the doctor is relying functionalism to ensure the replacement works. But Bruno's UD computes all functions and he theorizes that 1p consciousness consists of a sequence of states in

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-13 Thread Stephen Paul King
Does the UD compute *all* functions or only those that are recursively enumerable? AFAIK, the latter, as a set, has a measure zero as a subset of the former. This is one reason why I worry about the viability of UDA (and AUDA), it postulates a severely restricted subset of the possible functions

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-13 Thread meekerdb
On 5/13/2013 2:49 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Does the UD compute *all* functions or only those that are recursively enumerable? It computes all of them. Brent AFAIK, the latter, as a set, has a measure zero as a subset of the former. This is one reason why I worry about the viability of

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-13 Thread Stephen Paul King
So all possible functions are computed equally? ISTM that some functions would take an eternity to compute and that the number of such vastly outnumber the recursively enumerable ones. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 6:24 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/13/2013 2:49 PM, Stephen Paul King

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-13 Thread Russell Standish
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 03:24:09PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2013 2:49 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Does the UD compute *all* functions or only those that are recursively enumerable? It computes all of them. Brent Sorry - it does not compute all functions, just all partially

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-13 Thread Stephen Paul King
Hi Russel, Thank you for these remarks! I would see that closure under diagonalization is important, but i wonder if there is a bit of neglect to the uniqueness of this set. There are some indications that there may exist a continuum of sets with this property if we assume some version of the

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-13 Thread meekerdb
Right. It's not computing all possible functions, it's executing all possible programs - most of which don't terminate and so don't compute a function at all. Brent On 5/13/2013 3:30 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: So all possible functions are computed equally? ISTM that some functions would

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-13 Thread Stephen Paul King
OK, so that would require that all programs would be simultaneously 'available' for inspection for a measure to be defined over them, no? When can that occur? Never! A non-halting program can not be polled for a solution. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:32 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-13 Thread Stephen Paul King
Therefore we might argue that only programs that halt can contribute to our polls. This unfortunately does not allow for a true 3p. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:40 PM, Stephen Paul King kingstephenp...@gmail.com wrote: OK, so that would require that all programs would be simultaneously

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-12 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:35 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/11/2013 12:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I used to participate in the mailing list years ago and this was a recurring theme -- quantum suicide. There was some anecdote that some guy actually tried it but fell in love

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-12 Thread Jason Resch
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 5:52 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:35 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/11/2013 12:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I used to participate in the mailing list years ago and this was a recurring theme -- quantum

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-12 Thread Stephen Paul King
ISTM that this you are everyone aspect is the definition of that it is like to be at the substitution level. On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 5:52 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:35

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-12 Thread John Clark
On Sat, May 11, 2013 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Nothing can truly be proven nor disproven, Then you must believe that the word proof should be expunged from the English language as there would be no time when it would be appropriate to use it. I disagree and rather like the word.

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-12 Thread meekerdb
On 5/12/2013 9:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If your mom ate something different while pregnant with you, such that you developed with different atoms, does that mean someone else would have been born in your place and you wouldn't be conscious? Or if one unexpressed gene was different, would it

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-12 Thread Jason Resch
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 12:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/12/2013 9:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If your mom ate something different while pregnant with you, such that you developed with different atoms, does that mean someone else would have been born in your place and you

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-12 Thread Jason Resch
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 11:14 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Nothing can truly be proven nor disproven, Then you must believe that the word proof should be expunged from the English language as there would be no

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 May 2013, at 18:14, John Clark wrote: All religions are stupid but some religions are stupider (and more dangerous) than others. All the religions using propaganda, arguments per authority, invalid reasoning, violence, etc. ... sure, all those religions are bad. Science does not

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-12 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:21 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You keep assuming that because I don't vow allegiance to the MWI faith that I reject it. I said I liked it, I'm just not compelled to accept it so

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 May 2013, at 19:33, Jason Resch wrote: My question is more like: if a different sperm (besides the one that led to you) had made it, what would you expect to be experiencing right now? Would you expect to be experiencing nothing at all? Lol Does the soul of the sperm go to Heaven,

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-12 Thread meekerdb
On 5/12/2013 10:33 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 12:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/12/2013 9:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If your mom ate something different while pregnant with you, such that you developed with

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-12 Thread John Mikes
Brent: this back-and-forth is a marvelous game to go crazy. If I weren't me who else would be me and who whould I be? (Only for the IRS!) It points to me at those stupid sci-fi-s about transportation to Moskow/etc. - or another Universe, and 'living there' - am I still myself? No way. If I 'live'

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-12 Thread Jason Resch
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 1:50 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/12/2013 10:33 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 12:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/12/2013 9:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If your mom ate something different while pregnant with

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-11 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 7:34 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in a cuckoo clock causes a tiny change in the clock's performance, but a tiny change in the roulette wheel

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 May 2013, at 19:03, John Clark wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: How could a pseudo-religion, fake by definition, be superior to anything? Well, I'd rather be a fake moron that a real moron, wouldn't you? And why should a religion be illogical?

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 May 2013, at 19:18, meekerdb wrote: On 5/10/2013 10:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 May 2013, at 18:09, meekerdb wrote: On 5/10/2013 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 May 2013, at 18:08, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that requires a

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-11 Thread John Clark
On Fri, May 10, 2013 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Religion is a set of beliefs which cannot be proved. Not only can strongly held religious beliefs not be proven to be correct they can often be proven to be incorrect, of course that fact doesn't make the slightest difference to the

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-11 Thread Jason Resch
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:07 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Religion is a set of beliefs which cannot be proved. Not only can strongly held religious beliefs not be proven to be correct they can often be proven to

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-11 Thread meekerdb
On 5/11/2013 12:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I used to participate in the mailing list years ago and this was a recurring theme -- quantum suicide. There was some anecdote that some guy actually tried it but fell in love minutes before going through with it, and that stopped him. I think Russell

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 May 2013, at 17:46, John Clark wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Well, a pseudo-religion is certainly superior to a full fledged religion, ? Which word didn't you understand? but a religion that is not illogical is not a religion,

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 May 2013, at 18:08, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that requires a wave function collapse, it's explained by Everett's MWI also, which is a kind of non-local hidden variable. Why non local? There is nothing non local in Everett's MWI. Sure

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 May 2013, at 18:14, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 2:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 22:46, meekerdb wrote: On 5/8/2013 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 11:56, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 May 2013, at 19:02, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 11:14 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 2:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 22:46, meekerdb wrote: On 5/8/2013 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 11:56, Telmo Menezes

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 May 2013, at 19:39, John Clark wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Roulette wheels are not random, they can be modeled as Newtonian mechanisms, exactly like cuckoo clocks. No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in a cuckoo clock causes a

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 May 2013, at 20:11, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 10:02 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Von Neumann thought the extra baggage was required to make the model match our observations, but Everett later showed that step was unnecessary. The model (free of additional baggage) predicts the same

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 May 2013, at 21:29, John Mikes wrote: Bruno I stand corrected. You wrote: Randomness exists in math. Indeed the vast majority of numbers written in any base is random (incompressible). But there are no evidence at all of random 3p phenomenon in nature, and to bet on them seems

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 7:39 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Roulette wheels are not random, they can be modeled as Newtonian mechanisms, exactly like cuckoo clocks. No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread meekerdb
On 5/10/2013 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 May 2013, at 18:08, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that requires a wave function collapse, it's explained by Everett's MWI also, which is a kind of non-local hidden variable. Why non local? There is

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread meekerdb
On 5/10/2013 1:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: You beg the question. Nothing is irreversible. On the contrary it is you who are begging the question. You are claiming that measurements are reversible because your theory says they are reversible, even though in practice they are not, and this

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread meekerdb
On 5/10/2013 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Indeed. Even more so when you see that the collapse is really an axiom saying that the theory (QM) does not apply to observation. The old QM is really like QM + QM is false. Then there has been that myth that observation perturbs, making the collapse

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread meekerdb
On 5/10/2013 2:39 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in a cuckoo clock causes a tiny change in the clock's performance, but a tiny change in the roulette wheel causes a HUGE change in the wheel's performance, True, but chaotic systems are still explainable in

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 6:20 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 2:39 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in a cuckoo clock causes a tiny change in the clock's performance, but a tiny change in the roulette wheel causes a HUGE change in the

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread John Clark
On Fri, May 10, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: How could a pseudo-religion, fake by definition, be superior to anything? Well, I'd rather be a fake moron that a real moron, wouldn't you? And why should a religion be illogical? Because if it deals with big issues as religion

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 May 2013, at 18:09, meekerdb wrote: On 5/10/2013 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 May 2013, at 18:08, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that requires a wave function collapse, it's explained by Everett's MWI also, which is a kind of

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 May 2013, at 18:11, meekerdb wrote: On 5/10/2013 1:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: You beg the question. Nothing is irreversible. On the contrary it is you who are begging the question. You are claiming that measurements are reversible because your theory says they are reversible,

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 May 2013, at 18:12, meekerdb wrote: On 5/10/2013 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Indeed. Even more so when you see that the collapse is really an axiom saying that the theory (QM) does not apply to observation. The old QM is really like QM + QM is false. Then there has been that myth

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread meekerdb
On 5/10/2013 10:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 May 2013, at 18:09, meekerdb wrote: On 5/10/2013 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 May 2013, at 18:08, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that requires a wave function collapse, it's explained by

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Stephen Paul King
Kevin Knuth has shown how to derive space-time structure and lorentz invariance from ordered lattices of observers. I suspect that the UD can be considered to 'run' on chains of observer events per Knuth picture. This gives us a nice toy model of how space-time is emergent. On Fri, May 10, 2013

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Stephen Paul King
For more on Kevin Knuth's work please see http://arxiv.org/abs/1005.4172 On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Stephen Paul King kingstephenp...@gmail.com wrote: Kevin Knuth has shown how to derive space-time structure and lorentz invariance from ordered lattices of observers. I suspect that the

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread John Clark
On Fri, May 10, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in a cuckoo clock causes a tiny change in the clock's performance, but a tiny change in the roulette wheel causes a HUGE change in the wheel's performance, True, but chaotic

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:03 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: How could a pseudo-religion, fake by definition, be superior to anything? Well, I'd rather be a fake moron that a real moron, wouldn't you? And why

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread meekerdb
On 5/10/2013 10:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:03 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: How could a pseudo-religion, fake by

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Jason Resch
On May 10, 2013, at 1:24 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 10:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:03 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: How could a pseudo-religion,

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread meekerdb
On 5/10/2013 10:34 AM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com mailto:te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in a cuckoo clock causes a tiny change in the clock's performance, but a tiny change in the

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread meekerdb
On 5/10/2013 12:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On May 10, 2013, at 1:24 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 10:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:03 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 2:45 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 12:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On May 10, 2013, at 1:24 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 10:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:03 PM, John Clark

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread meekerdb
On 5/10/2013 2:49 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 2:45 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 12:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On May 10, 2013, at 1:24 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Stephen Paul King
Brent, I gave a non-circular explication of that ... based on faith in some supernatural revelation. Right, that is not circular. Are you OK with infinite regress based explanations? On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 8:40 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 2:49 PM, Jason Resch

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 7:40 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 2:49 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 2:45 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 12:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On May 10, 2013, at 1:24 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-10 Thread meekerdb
On 5/10/2013 8:39 PM, Jason Resch wrote: So to summarize, according to you, no choice can be scientific because science doesn't provide certainty Choices are inherently unscientific. So you say. I see no reason to discuss philosophy with someone who thinks they can just redefine

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 May 2013, at 17:35, meekerdb wrote: On 5/8/2013 1:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark wrote: On Mon, May 6, 2013 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: there is no random decay or anything else There is no way you can deduce that from pure reason and the

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 May 2013, at 18:53, John Clark wrote: On Wed, May 8, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: To believe in events without cause or reason is ... pseudo-religion. Well, a pseudo-religion is certainly superior to a full fledged religion, ? but a religion that is not

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 May 2013, at 22:46, meekerdb wrote: On 5/8/2013 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 11:56, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark wrote: On Mon, May 6, 2013 John Mikes

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:46 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/8/2013 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 11:56, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark wrote: On Mon, May

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread John Clark
On Wed, May 8, 2013 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: I (John M) feel in some remarks my text has been mixed with words of John Clark's. I never referred to that 'butterfly' hoax. Those aren't my words either, in fact I don't even know what a butterfly hoax is. Numerology was always one

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread John Clark
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Well, a pseudo-religion is certainly superior to a full fledged religion, ? Which word didn't you understand? but a religion that is not illogical is not a religion, ? Which word didn't you understand?

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread meekerdb
On 5/9/2013 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that requires a wave function collapse, it's explained by Everett's MWI also, which is a kind of non-local hidden variable. Why non local? There is nothing non local in Everett's MWI. Sure it is. When you take the trace of the density

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread Telmo Menezes
What problem is that? I don't understand why randomness is a bigger physical problem than determinism, both cuckoo clocks and roulette wheels coexist peacefully in our world. Roulette wheels are not random, they can be modeled as Newtonian mechanisms, exactly like cuckoo clocks. They have

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread meekerdb
On 5/9/2013 2:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 22:46, meekerdb wrote: On 5/8/2013 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 11:56, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 11:14 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 2:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 22:46, meekerdb wrote: On 5/8/2013 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 11:56, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread meekerdb
On 5/9/2013 7:49 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I was thinking to quantum erasure experiments. We can make a wave collapse, by some measurement, and still make it cohere again, by erasing the memory of the experience/the result of the experiment. If observation did collapse or select irreversibly,

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread meekerdb
On 5/9/2013 9:11 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: What problem is that? I don't understand why randomness is a bigger physical problem than determinism, both cuckoo clocks and roulette wheels coexist peacefully in our world. Roulette wheels are not random, they can be modeled as Newtonian mechanisms,

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread meekerdb
On 5/9/2013 10:02 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Von Neumann thought the extra baggage was required to make the model match our observations, but Everett later showed that step was unnecessary. The model (free of additional baggage) predicts the same observations as the model with it. He showed that

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 1:11 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 10:02 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Von Neumann thought the extra baggage was required to make the model match our observations, but Everett later showed that step was unnecessary. The model (free of additional

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread meekerdb
On 5/9/2013 11:28 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 1:11 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 10:02 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Von Neumann thought the extra baggage was required to make the model match our observations, but

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread John Mikes
Bruno I stand corrected. You wrote: *Randomness exists in math. Indeed the vast majority of numbers written in any base is random (incompressible). But there are no evidence at all of random 3p phenomenon in nature, and to bet on them seems like abandoning research.* * * I accept math-randomness

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:08 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 11:28 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 1:11 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 10:02 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Von Neumann thought the extra baggage was required to make the

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread meekerdb
On 5/9/2013 12:40 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:08 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 11:28 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 1:11 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 5:07:55 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote: I (John M) feel in some remarks my text has been mixed with words of John Clark's. I never referred to that 'butterfly' hoax. I have second thoughts whenever someone comes up with (Q?-)physical marvels showing 'internal'

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:14 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 12:40 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:08 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 11:28 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 1:11 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread meekerdb
On 5/9/2013 1:40 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:14 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 12:40 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:08 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:21 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 1:40 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:14 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 12:40 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:08 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:21 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But as a rule-of-thumb it is better to tentatively assume things we cannot see don't exist. I meant to ask: Why? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group.

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-09 Thread Stephen Paul King
If I may. We do so because we cannot account for such undetectable 'things' except perhaps as some randomness in the system that we can observe. On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 5:58 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:21 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark wrote: On Mon, May 6, 2013 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: there is no random decay or anything else There is no way you can deduce that from pure reason and the experimental evidence strongly indicates that you are wrong about that. only

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
Dear Stephen, On 07 May 2013, at 22:59, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, As a former and recovering fundamentalist Christian, I am 100% in agreement with your words above. I merely wish that I could communicate better with you. Thanks for telling Stephen. Bruno On Mon, Apr

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-08 Thread Stephen Lin
Tomorrow this will be harder but today this is the easiest thing in the world. Bill Murray? Andie MacDowell? Yes I said yes I will Yes. Stream of consciousness? Yes, already, after the ghosts in the shells it's not that easy to be a turtle who's green? Red/green color vision. Cogito ergo sum.

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-08 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark wrote: On Mon, May 6, 2013 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: there is no random decay or anything else There is no way you can deduce that from pure reason and the experimental

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-08 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2013/5/7 Stephen Paul King kingstephenp...@gmail.com Dear Bruno, As a former and recovering fundamentalist Christian, I am 100% in agreement with your words above. I merely wish that I could communicate better with you. On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-08 Thread meekerdb
On 5/8/2013 1:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark wrote: On Mon, May 6, 2013 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com mailto:jami...@gmail.com wrote: there is no random decay or anything else There is no way you can deduce that from pure reason and the experimental

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-05-08 Thread John Clark
On Tue, May 7, 2013 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Experimental evidence is a fairy-tale Craig Weinberg and perhaps others on this list think so too, are you also a fan of astrology and numerology as he is? I'd really like to know so I could best allocate my time. John K Clark -- You

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