### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 13 May 2013, at 19:39, Stephen Paul King wrote: We should add that computationalism postulates that consciousness is a process that can be exactly specified by a recursively enumerable function. No? Well, OK, but with Church Thesis, we can just say computable function, or

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 13 May 2013, at 20:02, meekerdb wrote: I don't know. It would seem you would want to believe that if you were going to say yes to the doctor, since the doctor is relying functionalism to ensure the replacement works. But Bruno's UD computes all functions and he theorizes that 1p

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 14 May 2013, at 00:24, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2013 2:49 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Does the UD compute *all* functions or only those that are recursively enumerable? It computes all of them. It computes only the computable one. But it generates all inputs and streams, like in the

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 13 May 2013, at 23:49, Stephen Paul King wrote: Does the UD compute *all* functions or only those that are recursively enumerable? AFAIK, the latter, as a set, has a measure zero as a subset of the former. This is one reason why I worry about the viability of UDA (and AUDA), it

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 14 May 2013, at 00:30, Stephen Paul King wrote: So all possible functions are computed equally? ISTM that some functions would take an eternity to compute and that the number of such vastly outnumber the recursively enumerable ones. Non-computable function cannot be computed. But we

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 14 May 2013, at 00:57, Russell Standish wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 03:24:09PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2013 2:49 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Does the UD compute *all* functions or only those that are recursively enumerable? It computes all of them. Brent Sorry - it does

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 12 May 2013, at 22:41, John Mikes wrote: Brent: this back-and-forth is a marvelous game to go crazy. If I weren't me who else would be me and who whould I be? (Only for the IRS!) It points to me at those stupid sci-fi-s about transportation to Moskow/etc. - or another Universe, and

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 7:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/12/2013 9:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If your mom ate something different while pregnant with you, such that you developed with different atoms, does that mean someone else would have been born in your place and you

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/13/2013 5:41 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 7:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/12/2013 9:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If your mom ate something different while pregnant with you, such that you developed with different atoms, does that mean someone else

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

We should add that computationalism postulates that consciousness is a process that can be exactly specified by a recursively enumerable function. No? On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:16 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/13/2013 5:41 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 7:05

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

I don't know. It would seem you would want to believe that if you were going to say yes to the doctor, since the doctor is relying functionalism to ensure the replacement works. But Bruno's UD computes all functions and he theorizes that 1p consciousness consists of a sequence of states in

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

Does the UD compute *all* functions or only those that are recursively enumerable? AFAIK, the latter, as a set, has a measure zero as a subset of the former. This is one reason why I worry about the viability of UDA (and AUDA), it postulates a severely restricted subset of the possible functions

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/13/2013 2:49 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Does the UD compute *all* functions or only those that are recursively enumerable? It computes all of them. Brent AFAIK, the latter, as a set, has a measure zero as a subset of the former. This is one reason why I worry about the viability of

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

So all possible functions are computed equally? ISTM that some functions would take an eternity to compute and that the number of such vastly outnumber the recursively enumerable ones. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 6:24 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/13/2013 2:49 PM, Stephen Paul King

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 03:24:09PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2013 2:49 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Does the UD compute *all* functions or only those that are recursively enumerable? It computes all of them. Brent Sorry - it does not compute all functions, just all partially

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

Hi Russel, Thank you for these remarks! I would see that closure under diagonalization is important, but i wonder if there is a bit of neglect to the uniqueness of this set. There are some indications that there may exist a continuum of sets with this property if we assume some version of the

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

Right. It's not computing all possible functions, it's executing all possible programs - most of which don't terminate and so don't compute a function at all. Brent On 5/13/2013 3:30 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: So all possible functions are computed equally? ISTM that some functions would

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

OK, so that would require that all programs would be simultaneously 'available' for inspection for a measure to be defined over them, no? When can that occur? Never! A non-halting program can not be polled for a solution. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:32 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

Therefore we might argue that only programs that halt can contribute to our polls. This unfortunately does not allow for a true 3p. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:40 PM, Stephen Paul King kingstephenp...@gmail.com wrote: OK, so that would require that all programs would be simultaneously

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:35 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/11/2013 12:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I used to participate in the mailing list years ago and this was a recurring theme -- quantum suicide. There was some anecdote that some guy actually tried it but fell in love

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 5:52 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:35 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/11/2013 12:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I used to participate in the mailing list years ago and this was a recurring theme -- quantum

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

ISTM that this you are everyone aspect is the definition of that it is like to be at the substitution level. On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 5:52 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:35

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Sat, May 11, 2013 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Nothing can truly be proven nor disproven, Then you must believe that the word proof should be expunged from the English language as there would be no time when it would be appropriate to use it. I disagree and rather like the word.

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/12/2013 9:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If your mom ate something different while pregnant with you, such that you developed with different atoms, does that mean someone else would have been born in your place and you wouldn't be conscious? Or if one unexpressed gene was different, would it

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 12:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/12/2013 9:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If your mom ate something different while pregnant with you, such that you developed with different atoms, does that mean someone else would have been born in your place and you

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 11:14 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Nothing can truly be proven nor disproven, Then you must believe that the word proof should be expunged from the English language as there would be no

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 12 May 2013, at 18:14, John Clark wrote: All religions are stupid but some religions are stupider (and more dangerous) than others. All the religions using propaganda, arguments per authority, invalid reasoning, violence, etc. ... sure, all those religions are bad. Science does not

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:21 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You keep assuming that because I don't vow allegiance to the MWI faith that I reject it. I said I liked it, I'm just not compelled to accept it so

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 12 May 2013, at 19:33, Jason Resch wrote: My question is more like: if a different sperm (besides the one that led to you) had made it, what would you expect to be experiencing right now? Would you expect to be experiencing nothing at all? Lol Does the soul of the sperm go to Heaven,

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/12/2013 10:33 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 12:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/12/2013 9:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If your mom ate something different while pregnant with you, such that you developed with

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

Brent: this back-and-forth is a marvelous game to go crazy. If I weren't me who else would be me and who whould I be? (Only for the IRS!) It points to me at those stupid sci-fi-s about transportation to Moskow/etc. - or another Universe, and 'living there' - am I still myself? No way. If I 'live'

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 1:50 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/12/2013 10:33 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 12:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/12/2013 9:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If your mom ate something different while pregnant with

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 7:34 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in a cuckoo clock causes a tiny change in the clock's performance, but a tiny change in the roulette wheel

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 10 May 2013, at 19:03, John Clark wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: How could a pseudo-religion, fake by definition, be superior to anything? Well, I'd rather be a fake moron that a real moron, wouldn't you? And why should a religion be illogical?

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 10 May 2013, at 19:18, meekerdb wrote: On 5/10/2013 10:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 May 2013, at 18:09, meekerdb wrote: On 5/10/2013 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 May 2013, at 18:08, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that requires a

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Fri, May 10, 2013 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Religion is a set of beliefs which cannot be proved. Not only can strongly held religious beliefs not be proven to be correct they can often be proven to be incorrect, of course that fact doesn't make the slightest difference to the

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:07 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Religion is a set of beliefs which cannot be proved. Not only can strongly held religious beliefs not be proven to be correct they can often be proven to

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/11/2013 12:27 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I used to participate in the mailing list years ago and this was a recurring theme -- quantum suicide. There was some anecdote that some guy actually tried it but fell in love minutes before going through with it, and that stopped him. I think Russell

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 09 May 2013, at 17:46, John Clark wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Well, a pseudo-religion is certainly superior to a full fledged religion, ? Which word didn't you understand? but a religion that is not illogical is not a religion,

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 09 May 2013, at 18:08, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that requires a wave function collapse, it's explained by Everett's MWI also, which is a kind of non-local hidden variable. Why non local? There is nothing non local in Everett's MWI. Sure

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 09 May 2013, at 18:14, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 2:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 22:46, meekerdb wrote: On 5/8/2013 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 11:56, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 09 May 2013, at 19:02, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 11:14 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 2:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 22:46, meekerdb wrote: On 5/8/2013 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 11:56, Telmo Menezes

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 09 May 2013, at 19:39, John Clark wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Roulette wheels are not random, they can be modeled as Newtonian mechanisms, exactly like cuckoo clocks. No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in a cuckoo clock causes a

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 09 May 2013, at 20:11, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 10:02 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Von Neumann thought the extra baggage was required to make the model match our observations, but Everett later showed that step was unnecessary. The model (free of additional baggage) predicts the same

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 09 May 2013, at 21:29, John Mikes wrote: Bruno I stand corrected. You wrote: Randomness exists in math. Indeed the vast majority of numbers written in any base is random (incompressible). But there are no evidence at all of random 3p phenomenon in nature, and to bet on them seems

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 7:39 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Roulette wheels are not random, they can be modeled as Newtonian mechanisms, exactly like cuckoo clocks. No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/10/2013 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 May 2013, at 18:08, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that requires a wave function collapse, it's explained by Everett's MWI also, which is a kind of non-local hidden variable. Why non local? There is

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/10/2013 1:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: You beg the question. Nothing is irreversible. On the contrary it is you who are begging the question. You are claiming that measurements are reversible because your theory says they are reversible, even though in practice they are not, and this

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/10/2013 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Indeed. Even more so when you see that the collapse is really an axiom saying that the theory (QM) does not apply to observation. The old QM is really like QM + QM is false. Then there has been that myth that observation perturbs, making the collapse

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/10/2013 2:39 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in a cuckoo clock causes a tiny change in the clock's performance, but a tiny change in the roulette wheel causes a HUGE change in the wheel's performance, True, but chaotic systems are still explainable in

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 6:20 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 2:39 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in a cuckoo clock causes a tiny change in the clock's performance, but a tiny change in the roulette wheel causes a HUGE change in the

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Fri, May 10, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: How could a pseudo-religion, fake by definition, be superior to anything? Well, I'd rather be a fake moron that a real moron, wouldn't you? And why should a religion be illogical? Because if it deals with big issues as religion

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 10 May 2013, at 18:09, meekerdb wrote: On 5/10/2013 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 May 2013, at 18:08, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that requires a wave function collapse, it's explained by Everett's MWI also, which is a kind of

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 10 May 2013, at 18:11, meekerdb wrote: On 5/10/2013 1:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: You beg the question. Nothing is irreversible. On the contrary it is you who are begging the question. You are claiming that measurements are reversible because your theory says they are reversible,

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 10 May 2013, at 18:12, meekerdb wrote: On 5/10/2013 1:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Indeed. Even more so when you see that the collapse is really an axiom saying that the theory (QM) does not apply to observation. The old QM is really like QM + QM is false. Then there has been that myth

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/10/2013 10:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 May 2013, at 18:09, meekerdb wrote: On 5/10/2013 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 May 2013, at 18:08, meekerdb wrote: On 5/9/2013 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that requires a wave function collapse, it's explained by

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

Kevin Knuth has shown how to derive space-time structure and lorentz invariance from ordered lattices of observers. I suspect that the UD can be considered to 'run' on chains of observer events per Knuth picture. This gives us a nice toy model of how space-time is emergent. On Fri, May 10, 2013

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

For more on Kevin Knuth's work please see http://arxiv.org/abs/1005.4172 On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Stephen Paul King kingstephenp...@gmail.com wrote: Kevin Knuth has shown how to derive space-time structure and lorentz invariance from ordered lattices of observers. I suspect that the

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Fri, May 10, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in a cuckoo clock causes a tiny change in the clock's performance, but a tiny change in the roulette wheel causes a HUGE change in the wheel's performance, True, but chaotic

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:03 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: How could a pseudo-religion, fake by definition, be superior to anything? Well, I'd rather be a fake moron that a real moron, wouldn't you? And why

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/10/2013 10:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:03 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: How could a pseudo-religion, fake by

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On May 10, 2013, at 1:24 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 10:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:03 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: How could a pseudo-religion,

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/10/2013 10:34 AM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com mailto:te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: No they are not exactly alike. A tiny change in a cuckoo clock causes a tiny change in the clock's performance, but a tiny change in the

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/10/2013 12:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On May 10, 2013, at 1:24 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 10:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:03 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote:

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 2:45 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 12:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On May 10, 2013, at 1:24 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 10:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:03 PM, John Clark

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/10/2013 2:49 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 2:45 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 12:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On May 10, 2013, at 1:24 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

Brent, I gave a non-circular explication of that ... based on faith in some supernatural revelation. Right, that is not circular. Are you OK with infinite regress based explanations? On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 8:40 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 2:49 PM, Jason Resch

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 7:40 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 2:49 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 2:45 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/10/2013 12:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On May 10, 2013, at 1:24 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/10/2013 8:39 PM, Jason Resch wrote: So to summarize, according to you, no choice can be scientific because science doesn't provide certainty Choices are inherently unscientific. So you say. I see no reason to discuss philosophy with someone who thinks they can just redefine

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 08 May 2013, at 17:35, meekerdb wrote: On 5/8/2013 1:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark wrote: On Mon, May 6, 2013 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: there is no random decay or anything else There is no way you can deduce that from pure reason and the

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 08 May 2013, at 18:53, John Clark wrote: On Wed, May 8, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: To believe in events without cause or reason is ... pseudo-religion. Well, a pseudo-religion is certainly superior to a full fledged religion, ? but a religion that is not

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 08 May 2013, at 22:46, meekerdb wrote: On 5/8/2013 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 11:56, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark wrote: On Mon, May 6, 2013 John Mikes

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:46 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/8/2013 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 11:56, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark wrote: On Mon, May

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Wed, May 8, 2013 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: I (John M) feel in some remarks my text has been mixed with words of John Clark's. I never referred to that 'butterfly' hoax. Those aren't my words either, in fact I don't even know what a butterfly hoax is. Numerology was always one

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Well, a pseudo-religion is certainly superior to a full fledged religion, ? Which word didn't you understand? but a religion that is not illogical is not a religion, ? Which word didn't you understand?

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/9/2013 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I don't think that requires a wave function collapse, it's explained by Everett's MWI also, which is a kind of non-local hidden variable. Why non local? There is nothing non local in Everett's MWI. Sure it is. When you take the trace of the density

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

What problem is that? I don't understand why randomness is a bigger physical problem than determinism, both cuckoo clocks and roulette wheels coexist peacefully in our world. Roulette wheels are not random, they can be modeled as Newtonian mechanisms, exactly like cuckoo clocks. They have

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/9/2013 2:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 22:46, meekerdb wrote: On 5/8/2013 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 11:56, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 11:14 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 2:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 22:46, meekerdb wrote: On 5/8/2013 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 May 2013, at 11:56, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/9/2013 7:49 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I was thinking to quantum erasure experiments. We can make a wave collapse, by some measurement, and still make it cohere again, by erasing the memory of the experience/the result of the experiment. If observation did collapse or select irreversibly,

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/9/2013 9:11 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: What problem is that? I don't understand why randomness is a bigger physical problem than determinism, both cuckoo clocks and roulette wheels coexist peacefully in our world. Roulette wheels are not random, they can be modeled as Newtonian mechanisms,

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/9/2013 10:02 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Von Neumann thought the extra baggage was required to make the model match our observations, but Everett later showed that step was unnecessary. The model (free of additional baggage) predicts the same observations as the model with it. He showed that

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 1:11 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 10:02 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Von Neumann thought the extra baggage was required to make the model match our observations, but Everett later showed that step was unnecessary. The model (free of additional

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/9/2013 11:28 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 1:11 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 10:02 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Von Neumann thought the extra baggage was required to make the model match our observations, but

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

Bruno I stand corrected. You wrote: *Randomness exists in math. Indeed the vast majority of numbers written in any base is random (incompressible). But there are no evidence at all of random 3p phenomenon in nature, and to bet on them seems like abandoning research.* * * I accept math-randomness

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:08 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 11:28 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 1:11 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 10:02 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Von Neumann thought the extra baggage was required to make the

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/9/2013 12:40 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:08 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 11:28 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 1:11 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 5:07:55 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote: I (John M) feel in some remarks my text has been mixed with words of John Clark's. I never referred to that 'butterfly' hoax. I have second thoughts whenever someone comes up with (Q?-)physical marvels showing 'internal'

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:14 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 12:40 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:08 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 11:28 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 1:11 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/9/2013 1:40 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:14 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 12:40 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:08 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:21 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 1:40 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:14 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/9/2013 12:40 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:08 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:21 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But as a rule-of-thumb it is better to tentatively assume things we cannot see don't exist. I meant to ask: Why? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group.

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

If I may. We do so because we cannot account for such undetectable 'things' except perhaps as some randomness in the system that we can observe. On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 5:58 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:21 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark wrote: On Mon, May 6, 2013 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: there is no random decay or anything else There is no way you can deduce that from pure reason and the experimental evidence strongly indicates that you are wrong about that. only

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

Dear Stephen, On 07 May 2013, at 22:59, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, As a former and recovering fundamentalist Christian, I am 100% in agreement with your words above. I merely wish that I could communicate better with you. Thanks for telling Stephen. Bruno On Mon, Apr

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

Tomorrow this will be harder but today this is the easiest thing in the world. Bill Murray? Andie MacDowell? Yes I said yes I will Yes. Stream of consciousness? Yes, already, after the ghosts in the shells it's not that easy to be a turtle who's green? Red/green color vision. Cogito ergo sum.

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark wrote: On Mon, May 6, 2013 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: there is no random decay or anything else There is no way you can deduce that from pure reason and the experimental

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013/5/7 Stephen Paul King kingstephenp...@gmail.com Dear Bruno, As a former and recovering fundamentalist Christian, I am 100% in agreement with your words above. I merely wish that I could communicate better with you. On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On 5/8/2013 1:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark wrote: On Mon, May 6, 2013 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com mailto:jami...@gmail.com wrote: there is no random decay or anything else There is no way you can deduce that from pure reason and the experimental

### Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

On Tue, May 7, 2013 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Experimental evidence is a fairy-tale Craig Weinberg and perhaps others on this list think so too, are you also a fan of astrology and numerology as he is? I'd really like to know so I could best allocate my time. John K Clark -- You