Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Oct 2012, at 17:55, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Keep in mind that I use the compatibilist definition of free will, which is the (machine) ability to exploits its self- indetermination (with indetermination in the Turing sense,

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Oct 2012, at 17:55, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Keep in mind that I use the compatibilist definition of free will, which is the (machine) ability to exploits its self- indetermination (with indetermination in the Turing sense,

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-14 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 4:46 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: And lets not forget those who insist that in order to qualify as free will the conscious choice must not be done for a reason AND it must not not be done for a reason. Why? They are inconsistent Very inconsistent!

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Oct 2012, at 22:36, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Keep in mind that I use the compatibilist definition of free will, which is the (machine) ability to exploits its self-indetermination (with indetermination in the Turing sense, (not in

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-13 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Keep in mind that I use the compatibilist definition of free will, which is the (machine) ability to exploits its self-indetermination (with indetermination in the Turing sense, (not in the comp first person sense, nor the quantum

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Oct 2012, at 16:20, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 10 Oct 2012, at 13:31, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I think that consciousness, intelligence and some measure of free will are necessary and inseparable parts of life

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-12 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Keep in mind that I use the compatibilist definition of free will, which is the (machine) ability to exploits its self-indetermination (with indetermination in the Turing sense, (not in the comp first person sense, nor the quantum

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-12 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: So you see no reason to draw a legal distinction between a banker to takes money from his bank to support a more lavish life style and one who does it to keep a bank robber from shooting him? No. John K Clark -- You received this

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-12 Thread meekerdb
On 10/12/2012 1:39 PM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: So you see no reason to draw a legal distinction between a banker to takes money from his bank to support a more lavish life style and one who does it to

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 10 Oct 2012, at 13:31, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I think that consciousness, intelligence and some measure of free will are necessary and inseparable parts of life itself.

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-11, 10:20:11 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On Wed, Oct 10, 2012? Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Oct 2012, at 13:31, Roger

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Free Will-- You need enough freedom My difficulty with the free will noise is not the will part, you want to do some things and don't want to do others and that's clear, my difficulty is with the free part; and all you're saying

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread meekerdb
On 10/11/2012 10:14 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net mailto:rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Free Will-- You need enough freedom My difficulty with the free will noise is not the will part, you want to do some things and don't want to do others

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 1:28 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: It's [free will] a simple enough concept I think that's true, although I may be using a somewhat different meaning of the word simple than you are. that it is used in law courts True. a venue not noted for

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread meekerdb
On 10/11/2012 1:14 PM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 1:28 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: It's [free will] a simple enough concept I think that's true, although I may be using a somewhat different meaning of the word simple than you are.

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread Roger Clough
- Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-09, 13:07:29 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On 10/9/2012 7:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Oct 2012, at 19:35, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote: 2

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread Roger Clough
Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/10/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-09, 10:17:35 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On 08 Oct 2012, at 19

Re: Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Roger Clough Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/10/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Roger Clough Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-10, 07:31:58 Subject: Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I have no trouble at all saying that zero computers are conscious and that all living people have had conscious experiences. Fine say what you want, but I'll never be able to prove you right and I'll never be able to prove you

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Craig, and other As I am in very buzy period, which can last some time, I will be short and focus on the main disagreements. Or I will take more time for some posts, or I will break my spelling mistakes' number record. On 09 Oct 2012, at 17:24, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday,

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2012, at 19:07, meekerdb wrote: On 10/9/2012 7:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Oct 2012, at 19:35, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote: 2) Intelligent behavior is NOT associated with subjective experience, in which case there is no reason for Evolution

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
will--intelligence I agree with this. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/10/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-09, 10:17:35 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-08, 10:19:35 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment Hi

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Time: 2012-10-08, 14:23:18 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On Monday, October 8, 2012 1:35:31 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote: 2) Intelligent behavior is NOT associated with subjective experience, in which case there is no reason for Evolution

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-08, 14:25:15 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg They can only disagree about experiences that are spoken. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-08, 16:25:20 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On Monday, October 8, 2012 3:38:42 PM UTC-4

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 10:28 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: There is no assumption that our knowledge of physics is complete; in fact if there were that assumption there would be no point in being a physicist, would there? As a matter of fact I believe that the basic physics

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-08, 17:18:59 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On 10/8/2012

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 6:38:24 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg They can only disagree about experiences that are spoken. You mean they can only verbally disagree. It is pretty clear that they can disagree about their taste in things without having spoken about them.

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Oct 2012, at 19:35, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote: 2) Intelligent behavior is NOT associated with subjective experience, in which case there is no reason for Evolution to produce consciousness and I have no explanation for why I am here, and I have reason

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, which computers do you think have conscious experiences? Windows laptops? Deep Blue? Cable TV boxes? How the hell should I know if computers have conscious experiences? How the hell should I know if people have conscious

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 10:17:41 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: Consciousness is when you bet in your consistency, or in a reality, to help yourself. Consciousness precedes language, but follows perception and sensation. Nice. It can be tricky because perception and sensation can

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On Monday, October 8, 2012 1:35:31 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote: 2) Intelligent behavior is NOT associated with subjective experience, in which case there is no reason for Evolution to produce consciousness and I have

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 11:21:59 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, which computers do you think have conscious experiences? Windows laptops? Deep Blue? Cable TV boxes? How the hell should I know if computers have conscious

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread meekerdb
On 10/9/2012 7:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Oct 2012, at 19:35, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote: 2) Intelligent behavior is NOT associated with subjective experience, in which case there is no reason for Evolution to produce consciousness and I have no explanation

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/10/7 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:56:33 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comwrote: I'm openly saying that a high school kid can make a robot that behaves sensibly with just a few

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On 08/10/2012, at 3:07 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Absolutely not. We know no such thing. Quite the opposite, we know with relative certainty that what we understand of physics provides no possibility of anything other than more physics. There is no hint of any kind

Re: Re: Can computers be conscious ? Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Roger Clough
...@verizon.net 10/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-06, 13:56:30 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:29 PM

Re: Re: Can computers be conscious ? Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Roger Clough
the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-06, 13:56:30 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: ?I'm openly saying that a high school

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Roger Clough
- From: Stathis Papaioannou Receiver: everything-list@googlegroups.com Time: 2012-10-08, 03:14:29 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On 08/10/2012, at 3:07 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Absolutely not. We know no such thing. Quite the opposite, we know with relative certainty

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
10/8/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stathis Papaioannou Receiver: everything-list@googlegroups.com Time: 2012-10-08, 03:14:29 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On 08/10/2012, at 3:07 AM, Craig

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 8, 2012 3:06:42 AM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/10/7 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript: On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:56:33 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comwrote: I'm openly saying that

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 8, 2012 3:14:36 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On 08/10/2012, at 3:07 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Absolutely not. We know no such thing. Quite the opposite, we know with relative certainty that what we understand of physics provides no

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: We know with absolute certainty that the laws of physics in this universe allow for the creation of consciousness, we may not know how they do it but we know for a fact that it can be done. Absolutely not. We know no such thing.

Re: Re: Can computers be conscious ? Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Richard Ruquist
: everything-list Time: 2012-10-07, 11:06:17 Subject: Re: Can computers be conscious ? Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment Roger, If human consciousness comes from attached monads, as I think you have claimed, then why could not these monads attach to sufficiently complex computers as well

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 8, 2012 11:42:02 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: We know with absolute certainty that the laws of physics in this universe allow for the creation of consciousness, we may not know how they do it but we know for

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread meekerdb
On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote: 2) Intelligent behavior is NOT associated with subjective experience, in which case there is no reason for Evolution to produce consciousness and I have no explanation for why I am here, and I have reason to believe that I am the only conscious being in

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread meekerdb
On 10/8/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: So the more stimulation you get through your senses of the outside environment the less conscious you become. Huh? Stimulation that you get thorough your senses of the outside environment does not control you. How could you possibly

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 8, 2012 1:35:31 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote: 2) Intelligent behavior is NOT associated with subjective experience, in which case there is no reason for Evolution to produce consciousness and I have no explanation for why I am here,

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 8, 2012 2:19:56 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: So the more stimulation you get through your senses of the outside environment the less conscious you become. Huh? Stimulation that you get thorough your senses of the outside

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread meekerdb
On 10/8/2012 11:25 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 8, 2012 2:19:56 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: So the more stimulation you get through your senses of the outside environment the less conscious you become. Huh?

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 8, 2012 3:38:42 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 11:25 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 8, 2012 2:19:56 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: So the more stimulation you get through your senses of the outside

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread meekerdb
On 10/8/2012 1:25 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 8, 2012 3:38:42 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 11:25 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 8, 2012 2:19:56 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: So the

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 8, 2012 4:57:08 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 1:25 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 8, 2012 3:38:42 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 11:25 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 8, 2012 2:19:56 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread meekerdb
On 10/8/2012 2:10 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 8, 2012 4:57:08 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 1:25 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 8, 2012 3:38:42 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 11:25 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday,

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 8, 2012 5:19:03 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 2:10 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 8, 2012 4:57:08 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012 1:25 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 8, 2012 3:38:42 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/8/2012

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 1:39 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Well, if it's not the laws of physics then it's something supernatural, isn't it? Not unless you assume that physics is complete. To me, if we have no idea how anything detects anything then we haven't completely

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 8, 2012 5:51:56 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 1:39 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Well, if it's not the laws of physics then it's something supernatural, isn't it? Not unless you assume that physics is complete.

Can computers be conscious ? Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-07 Thread Roger Clough
, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-06, 13:56:30 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: ?I'm openly saying that a high

Re: Can computers be conscious ? Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-06, 13:56:30 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: ?I'm openly saying that a high school kid can

Re: Can computers be conscious ? Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-07 Thread Richard Ruquist
- Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-06, 13:56:30 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: ?I'm openly saying that a high school kid can make a robot that behaves

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:56:33 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: I'm openly saying that a high school kid can make a robot that behaves sensibly with just a few transistors. Only because he

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-06 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Oct 2012, at 18:58, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: To paraphrase Carl, 'First, you have to invent the universe.' You want to know why there is something rather than nothing and Science can't provide a good answer to that, but

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-06 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: I'm openly saying that a high school kid can make a robot that behaves sensibly with just a few transistors. Only because he lives in a universe in which the possibility of teleology is fully supported from the

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-05 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: To paraphrase Carl, 'First, you have to invent the universe.' You want to know why there is something rather than nothing and Science can't provide a good answer to that, but depending on exactly what you mean by nothing it can

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-05 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Are you saying that Darwin has an explanation for the origin of order? Yes, mutation and natural selection. No. Natural selection is a type of order. Mutation describes a deviation from an established order which

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, October 5, 2012 12:58:14 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: To paraphrase Carl, 'First, you have to invent the universe.' You want to know why there is something rather than nothing and Science can't provide a

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:56:59 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: 1) I understand and respect your argument here 100%. 2) I think that I have a better explanation The better explanation is the

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-04 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: When you say Random mutation can wire together a small number of cells such that if there is a sudden change in the light levels in the environment, like a shadow covering it, a snail will retreat into its shell, you

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 4, 2012 3:18:51 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: When you say Random mutation can wire together a small number of cells such that if there is a sudden change in the light levels in the

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-04 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 10:37 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:56:59 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: 1) I understand and respect your argument here 100%. 2) I think that I

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 4, 2012 6:55:47 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 10:37 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:56:59 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Craig Weinberg

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-03 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: how can reason be completely different from evolution if reason itself is a consequence of nothing but evolution. Random mutation can wire together a small number of cells such that if there is a sudden change in the

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Oct 2012, at 19:48, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Any meta-molecular system is going to be complex compared to a molecular system, That's what meta means, and a very big thing is larger than a big thing. Once a theory is

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-03 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 12:35:11 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: how can reason be completely different from evolution if reason itself is a consequence of nothing but evolution. Random mutation can wire

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-03 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: 1) I understand and respect your argument here 100%. 2) I think that I have a better explanation The better explanation is the simpler one. Your explanation adds extra, unnecessary and unsupported by any evidence

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-02 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I don't understand the question because I'm not clear on what these differences refers to. The differences between evolutionary nature (teleonomy) and rational design (teleology) that we are talking about. For God's sake!

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-02 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 1:48:39 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: I don't understand the question because I'm not clear on what these differences refers to. The differences between evolutionary nature (teleonomy)

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Oct 2012, at 01:56, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/30/2012 7:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Oct 2012, at 02:02, meekerdb wrote: On 9/30/2012 4:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You aren't seeing my point that if human designers are nothing but evolved systems, then they must have the same limitations as evolution itself, unless you can explain why they wouldn't. More

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-01 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/1/2012 4:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The whole *is* very often more than the parts. Non Löbian entities can create/emulate the Löbian entities. That is why we can take a very simple whole as ontology, be it a tiny arithmetic without induction axioms, or a differential equation (like

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-01 Thread Roger Clough
: everything-list Time: 2012-09-30, 19:56:20 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On 9/30/2012 7:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, September 30, 2012 8:02:55 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 9/30/2012 4:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You aren't seeing my point that if human designers are nothing but evolved systems, then they must have the same limitations as evolution itself, unless you can explain why they

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-01 Thread Roger Clough
design or structure. Fill in the dots. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/1/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-30, 20:29:55 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-01 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: The difference is Evolution doesn't understand the concept of one step backward 2 steps forward for one thing, I went into considerable more detail about this in my last post and also gave you 4 more reasons how and

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 1, 2012 1:52:29 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: The difference is Evolution doesn't understand the concept of one step backward 2 steps forward for one thing, I went into considerable

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Organisms can utilize inorganic minerals, sure. Salt would be a better example as we can actually eat it in its pure form and we actually need to eat it. But that's completely different than a living cell made of

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Roger Clough
the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-29, 11:49:19 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On Friday, September 28, 2012 11:36:36 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Craig

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Only life evolves, and steel claws, being made of steel, are not alive, at least in the ordinary sense (Leibniz believed that everything in the universe is alive). So what you propose couldn't happen. Sea shells are

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, September 30, 2012 10:55:34 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Roger Clough rcl...@verizon.netjavascript: wrote: Only life evolves, and steel claws, being made of steel, are not alive, at least in the ordinary sense (Leibniz believed that

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: It's not enough to assert that evolutionary designs (teleonomy) and rational designs (teleology) are different, I am asking you to explain how it is possible for them to be different The difference is Evolution

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Organisms can utilize inorganic minerals, sure. Salt would be a better example as we can actually eat it in its pure form and we actually need to eat it. But that's

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 8:39 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Only life evolves, and steel claws, being made of steel, are not alive, at least in the ordinary sense (Leibniz believed that everything in the universe is alive). So what you propose couldn't happen. The unstated assumption here is that organism

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, September 30, 2012 1:43:16 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: It's not enough to assert that evolutionary designs (teleonomy) and rational designs (teleology) are different, I am asking you

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Organisms can utilize inorganic minerals, sure. Salt would be a better example as we

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 7:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Organisms can utilize inorganic

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread meekerdb
On 9/30/2012 4:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You aren't seeing my point that if human designers are nothing but evolved systems, then they must have the same limitations as evolution itself, unless you can explain why they wouldn't. More nothing buttery. If people are just atoms they must

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread meekerdb
On 9/30/2012 4:56 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/30/2012 7:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 8:07 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/30/2012 4:56 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/30/2012 7:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM,

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