Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-11 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/3/11 Wei Dai wei...@weidai.com: Jack Mallah wrote: They might not, but I'm sure most would; maybe not exactly that U, but a lot closer to it. Can you explain why you believe that? No.  In U = Sum_i M_i Q_i, you sum over all the i's, not just the ones that are similar to you.  Of

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-10 Thread Wei Dai
Jack Mallah wrote: They might not, but I'm sure most would; maybe not exactly that U, but a lot closer to it. Can you explain why you believe that? No. In U = Sum_i M_i Q_i, you sum over all the i's, not just the ones that are similar to you. Of course your Q_i (which is _your_ utility

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-10 Thread George Levy
Jack, You say Q_i (which is _your_ utility per unit measure for the observer i). This is an oxymoron. How can observer i know or care what YOUR Q (Quality) is? How can this observer feel what it feels being you?. The only observer that matters in evaluating your Q is you as a self-observer.

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/3/9 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: And if it went to zero you certainly wouldn't know and wouldn't care. If I died I wouldn't be around to know or care, but I would care in anticipation of dying,

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-09 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/3/9 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: And if it went to zero you certainly wouldn't know and wouldn't care. If I died I wouldn't be around to know or care, but I would care in anticipation of dying,

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-08 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: And if it went to zero you certainly wouldn't know and wouldn't care. If I died I wouldn't be around to know or care, but I would care in anticipation of dying, since it would radically alter my future experiences

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-07 Thread Jack Mallah
--- On Fri, 3/6/09, Wei Dai wei...@weidai.com wrote: No.  First, I don't agree that the real question is what the utility function is or should be.  The real question is whether the measure, M, is conserved or whether it decreases.  It's just that a lot of people don't understand what

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-07 Thread Günther Greindl
Stathis, Brent, There are two copies of me in perfect lockstep, A1 and A2. I'm one of these copies and not the other (though I don't know which). Suppose I'm A1 and I decide to teleport 100km away. That means A1 disappears and a new copy, B, appears 100m away. I'm happy, since I feel I've

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-07 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/3/8 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com wrote: It's not the addition then loss that's bad (since you end up with the same measure you started with); it's the loss. In the culling teleportation, both people are lost, which is doubly bad.   Elsewhere, one new person appears, which is good,

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-07 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/8 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com wrote: It's not the addition then loss that's bad (since you end up with the same measure you started with); it's the loss. In the culling teleportation, both people are lost, which is doubly bad. Elsewhere, one new

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-07 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/3/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: And if it went to zero you certainly wouldn't know and wouldn't care. If I died I wouldn't be around to know or care, but I would care in anticipation of dying, since it would radically alter my future experiences by eliminating them. On the other

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-06 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/3/6 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com wrote: If you're not worried about the fair trade, then to be consistent you shouldn't be worried about the unfair trade either. In the fair trade, one version of you A disappears overnight, and a new version of you B is created elsewhere in the

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-06 Thread rmiller
At 07:31 AM 3/6/2009, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/6 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com wrote: If you're not worried about the fair trade, then to be consistent you shouldn't be worried about the unfair trade either. In the fair trade, one version of you A disappears overnight, and

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-06 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/6 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com wrote: If you're not worried about the fair trade, then to be consistent you shouldn't be worried about the unfair trade either. In the fair trade, one version of you A disappears overnight, and a new version of you B is

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-06 Thread Günther Greindl
Which I? Aren't you concerned that you would press the button - and vanish? Brent The psychological continuer - the one who remembers having pressed the button but with +5 dollars on his account. @Stathis: would you really do this (press the button, also in the absoute measure scenario)?

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-06 Thread Wei Dai
No. First, I don't agree that the real question is what the utility function is or should be. The real question is whether the measure, M, is conserved or whether it decreases. It's just that a lot of people don't understand what that means. I agree that a lot of people don't

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-06 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/3/7 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: I don't agree with the way you calculate utility at all. If I got $5 every time I pressed a button which decreased my absolute measure in the multiverse a millionfold I would happily press the button all day. Which I?  Aren't you concerned that

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-05 Thread Jack Mallah
--- On Tue, 2/24/09, Wei Dai wei...@weidai.com wrote: Jack, welcome back. Hi Wei. Now that the interesting Consciousness Online web conference is over, it's time to get back to the this. http://consciousnessonline.wordpress.com/ BTW, I have to say that the qualia issue remains mysterious to

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-02-25 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/2/25 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com: 1) The fair trade This is the teleportation or Star Trek transporter thought experiment.  A person is disintegrated, while a physically identical copy is created elsewhere. Even on Star Trek, not everyone was comfortable with doing this.  The

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-02-24 Thread daddycaylor
I noticed someone taking my name in vain. ;) (though experiment where I, Tom, am a clone of Will Riker) The magic of thought experiments, it's amazing. I felt my measure decrease, but only after I read the thought experiment. I trust this will not derail anyone's personal identity here, but I

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-02-24 Thread Wei Dai
Jack, welcome back. I no longer read every post here, but I read this post and found your positions pretty close to my own. This one, especially, I totally agree with: The important thing to realize is that _definitions don't matter_! Predictions, decisions, appropriate emotions to a

Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-02-24 Thread Günther Greindl
Jack, Wei Dai, machines are invented, there will be a much greater selection pressure towards U=M*Q. But given that U=Q is closer to the reality today, I'm not sure what good it would do to taking a stand against QS/QI. To translate: U=M*Q is 3rd person POV (hypothetical; viewed from