Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-24 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:13:25 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/23/2013 5:53 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: I guess you are serious, but I can't imagine how you can actually believe that. You think that you turn the Mars rover on and there is some entity there which has an expectation

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-24 Thread meekerdb
On 1/24/2013 9:44 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:13:25 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/23/2013 5:53 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: I guess you are serious, but I can't imagine how you can actually believe that. You think that you turn the Mars rover on and

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-24 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:17:12 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/24/2013 9:44 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, January 24, 2013 12:13:25 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/23/2013 5:53 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: I guess you are serious, but I can't imagine how you can actually

Re: Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-23 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen, Numbers do have an independent existence, that being nonphysical existence. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-22, 12:28:48 Subject: Re: the curse of materialism On 22 Jan 2013, at 18:06, Stephen P. King wrote

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-23 Thread Stephen P. King
On 1/23/2013 6:03 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen, Numbers do have an independent existence, that being nonphysical existence. Hi Roger, I agree but only because I see existence as mere a priori necessary possibility; not contingent upon perception at all... -- Onward! Stephen --

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 22 Jan 2013, at 23:01, meekerdb wrote: On 1/22/2013 10:57 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Then how does one manage to negotiate the surface of Mars and another to drive through the streets of Los Angeles. You associate the images with Mars or Los Angeles, not the computer. Not 'images',

Re: Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-23 Thread Craig Weinberg
- Receiving the following content - *From:* Bruno Marchal javascript: *Receiver:* everything-list javascript: *Time:* 2013-01-22, 12:28:48 *Subject:* Re: the curse of materialism On 22 Jan 2013, at 18:06, Stephen P. King wrote: On 1/22/2013 10:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-23 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 5:01:09 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/22/2013 10:57 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Then how does one manage to negotiate the surface of Mars and another to drive through the streets of Los Angeles. You associate the images with Mars or Los Angeles, not the

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-23 Thread meekerdb
On 1/23/2013 9:27 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 5:01:09 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/22/2013 10:57 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Then how does one manage to negotiate the surface of Mars and another to drive through the streets of Los Angeles.

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-23 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, January 23, 2013 7:42:27 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/23/2013 9:27 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 5:01:09 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/22/2013 10:57 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Then how does one manage to negotiate the surface of Mars and another

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-23 Thread meekerdb
On 1/23/2013 5:53 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: I guess you are serious, but I can't imagine how you can actually believe that. You think that you turn the Mars rover on and there is some entity there which has an expectation about 'Mars' or Earth. It really doesn't. There is no entity there So

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-22 Thread socra...@bezeqint.net
Book: What is your dangerous idea? / Edited by John Brockman / Article: Seeing Darwin in the light of Einstein; Seeing Einstein in the light of Darwin. / by Lee Smolin. / ===. / Page 115 / Seeing Einstein in the light of Darwin suggests that natural selection could act not only

Re: Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-22 Thread Roger Clough
- From: socra...@bezeqint.net Receiver: Everything List Time: 2013-01-22, 02:46:12 Subject: Re: the curse of materialism Lecture : Scientific heresy. Nov 1, 2011 in Edinburgh. / By Matt Ridley / My topic today is scientific heresy. When are scientific heretics right and when

Re: Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-22 Thread Roger Clough
conservative to easily accept these views, but I am open to examining them. - Receiving the following content - From: socra...@bezeqint.net Receiver: Everything List Time: 2013-01-22, 03:19:16 Subject: Re: the curse of materialism Book: What is your dangerous idea? / Edited by John

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 21 Jan 2013, at 20:05, Stephen P. King wrote: On 1/21/2013 8:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If you don't take arithmetic as primitive, I can prove that you cannot derive both addition and multiplication, nor the existence of computer. Then everything around me does not make sense. If you

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 22 Jan 2013, at 09:19, socra...@bezeqint.net wrote: Book: What is your dangerous idea? / Edited by John Brockman / Article: Seeing Darwin in the light of Einstein; Seeing Einstein in the light of Darwin. / by Lee Smolin. / ===. / Page 115 / Seeing Einstein in the light of Darwin

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-22 Thread Stephen P. King
On 1/22/2013 10:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Jan 2013, at 20:05, Stephen P. King wrote: On 1/21/2013 8:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If you don't take arithmetic as primitive, I can prove that you cannot derive both addition and multiplication, nor the existence of computer. Then

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 22 Jan 2013, at 18:06, Stephen P. King wrote: On 1/22/2013 10:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Jan 2013, at 20:05, Stephen P. King wrote: On 1/21/2013 8:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If you don't take arithmetic as primitive, I can prove that you cannot derive both addition and

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-22 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, January 21, 2013 6:42:04 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/21/2013 3:27 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, January 21, 2013 5:38:32 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/21/2013 2:09 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, January 21, 2013 4:59:55 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-22 Thread meekerdb
On 1/22/2013 10:57 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Then how does one manage to negotiate the surface of Mars and another to drive through the streets of Los Angeles. You associate the images with Mars or Los Angeles, not the computer. Not 'images', 'representations' (check your reading

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 20 Jan 2013, at 19:19, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, January 18, 2013 1:15:09 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Jan 2013, at 18:50, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:06:03 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 1/16/2013 5:32 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, January 21, 2013 8:30:39 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Jan 2013, at 19:19, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, January 18, 2013 1:15:09 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Jan 2013, at 18:50, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, January 16, 2013

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 21 Jan 2013, at 17:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, January 21, 2013 8:30:39 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Jan 2013, at 19:19, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, January 18, 2013 1:15:09 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Jan 2013, at 18:50, Craig Weinberg wrote: On

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread Stephen P. King
On 1/21/2013 8:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If you don't take arithmetic as primitive, I can prove that you cannot derive both addition and multiplication, nor the existence of computer. Then everything around me does not make sense. If you believe you can derive them, then do it. But you

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, January 21, 2013 12:01:50 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Jan 2013, at 17:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: You are saying that you can prove that the only way a computer can exist is if arithmetic is irreducible? I did not say that. I was saying that you have to assume the

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, January 21, 2013 2:05:08 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 1/21/2013 8:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If you don't take arithmetic as primitive, I can prove that you cannot derive both addition and multiplication, nor the existence of computer. Then everything around me

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread meekerdb
On 1/21/2013 11:05 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Materialism fails since it cannot explain how it is possible for material things to have representations of things, intensionality, such as numbers. That's something evolution explains. Brent -- You received this message because you are

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, January 21, 2013 4:59:55 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/21/2013 11:05 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Materialism fails since it cannot explain how it is possible for material things to have representations of things, intensionality, such as numbers. That's something evolution

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread meekerdb
On 1/21/2013 2:09 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, January 21, 2013 4:59:55 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/21/2013 11:05 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Materialism fails since it cannot explain how it is possible for material things to have representations of things,

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, January 21, 2013 5:38:32 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/21/2013 2:09 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, January 21, 2013 4:59:55 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/21/2013 11:05 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Materialism fails since it cannot explain how it is possible for material

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread meekerdb
On 1/21/2013 3:27 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, January 21, 2013 5:38:32 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/21/2013 2:09 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, January 21, 2013 4:59:55 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/21/2013 11:05 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Materialism

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread Stephen P. King
On 1/21/2013 2:45 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: I mean if we wanted to get technical I would split the physics of counting into the private motive experience quantitative reasoning from the sensory experiences of figures or forms upon which we project our representations, but yeah numbers need a

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread Stephen P. King
On 1/21/2013 4:59 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2013 11:05 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Materialism fails since it cannot explain how it is possible for material things to have representations of things, intensionality, such as numbers. That's something evolution explains. Brent Hi Brent,

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread meekerdb
On 1/21/2013 5:10 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 1/21/2013 4:59 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 1/21/2013 11:05 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Materialism fails since it cannot explain how it is possible for material things to have representations of things, intensionality, such as numbers. That's

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-21 Thread socra...@bezeqint.net
Lecture : Scientific heresy. Nov 1, 2011 in Edinburgh. / By Matt Ridley / My topic today is scientific heresy. When are scientific heretics right and when are they mad? How do you tell the difference between science and pseudoscience? # Just this month Daniel Shechtman won the 2011 Nobel

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-20 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, January 18, 2013 1:15:09 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Jan 2013, at 18:50, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:06:03 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 1/16/2013 5:32 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: That is the most clear demosnstration that what

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Jan 2013, at 18:50, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:06:03 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 1/16/2013 5:32 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: That is the most clear demosnstration that what we perceive is in the mind ,and the rest out of the mind is only

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:06:03 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 1/16/2013 5:32 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: That is the most clear demosnstration that what we perceive is in the mind ,and the rest out of the mind is only mathematics (or some kind of underlying

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-16 Thread socra...@bezeqint.net
The Newtonian world cannot exist without Quantum world and vice versa. We cannot separate the Quantum theory from Classical theory, the Quantum world from Newtonian material world. The quantum world as real as the physical matter world and we need understand and celebrate their unity. Where is

Re: Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-16 Thread Roger Clough
...@verizon.net] 1/16/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: socra...@bezeqint.net Receiver: Everything List Time: 2013-01-16, 07:38:37 Subject: Re: the curse of materialism The Newtonian world cannot exist without

Re: Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-16 Thread Alberto G. Corona
/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: socra...@bezeqint.net Receiver: Everything List Time: 2013-01-16, 07:38:37 Subject: Re: the curse of materialism The Newtonian world cannot exist without Quantum world

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2013, at 11:01, Roger Clough wrote: Hi socra...@bezeqint.net You want to know why nobody understands QM ? Because QM is nonphysical, but is treated as being physical. This might be called the curse of materialism. Newton's physics is also non physical. In fact it is even

Re: Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-16 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal OK. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/16/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-16, 10:35:43 Subject: Re: the curse of materialism

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2013, at 13:38, socra...@bezeqint.net wrote: The Newtonian world cannot exist without Quantum world and vice versa. We cannot separate the Quantum theory from Classical theory, the Quantum world from Newtonian material world. The quantum can explain some notion of

Re: Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-16 Thread Alberto G. Corona
, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: socra...@bezeqint.net Receiver: Everything List Time: 2013-01-16, 07:38:37 Subject: Re: the curse of materialism The Newtonian world cannot exist without Quantum world and vice versa. We cannot separate

Re: the curse of materialism

2013-01-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 1/16/2013 5:32 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: That is the most clear demosnstration that what we perceive is in the mind ,and the rest out of the mind is only mathematics (or some kind of underlying conputation) Simply speaking 3D geometry in which we see our body and the rest of the