Re: Response to R.Hlywka's brain/mind comments

2003-06-08 Thread Bretton Vine
Eric Hawthorne wrote:
 I don't remember claiming (maybe someone else claimed) you could copy a
 mind.

It's a dream for many transhumanists :-) and I reckon it will be
possible to the extent that external observers can no longer tell the
difference, even if the copied mind itself new it wasn't the original.[1]

A more interesting question is:
Can you reconstruct one?

Assuming you had enough prior knowledge of (relevant) starting
conditions, would the simulation give rise to the same mind in each
instance?

Or, assuming you had collected all possible information at point A, and
based on information of A + n, could work backwards and determine A - n.
In such a case, could you reconstruct the mind itself if you had the
ability to simulate the matter, matter location, and biological
instances of matter combinations.

Bretton
[1] Over a period of time replace each nueron with a non-biological
equivelent until such time as all nuerons are no longer biological. Snap
in RJ45 and #cp brain /dev/hda

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Response to R.Hlywka's brain/mind comments

2003-06-05 Thread Eric Hawthorne
R Hlywka wrote:

There are so many things we need to take into consideration. Genetics. 
We are born with a specific preprogramed set of organization and 
hardware. the way the neurons are preorganized, and the way they go 
about utilizing and organizing and transfering specific information. 
We are predisposed if you will. However, there's also nurture. Even 
from starting in the womb, we recieve biorythms of our mother, which 
our whole body sets to. What she ingests, the anxieties she feels. We 
feel. Not that it's a good or bad thing. 
Yes. Ok. I left out some details. One way of looking at it though is 
that the brain
evolved from hard-wired control-system hardware to become a more and 
more general
information processor. This must have something to do with the fact that
the terrestrial environment has lots of different opportunities for an 
ecological
generalist with opposable thumbs, if only that generalist can figure out 
what to
do (how to behave) in novel situation-types.

You could even say that the human brain (cortex?) has distinguished 
itself from
the brains of other animals by the evolution of this general computing 
capability
(and the consequent ability to do abstract thinking, situation-modelling 
with hypotheticals,
conceptualizing, precise but extensible linguistic commucation, 
introspection etc.)
even if (granted) the general computing ability is employed in habitual and
stereotypical ways most of the time, and is optimized to support those 
habitual
or instinctual patterns.

Many other animal species  share with us the hard-wired or firm-wared
kinds of behaviours that you ascribe to our brains. We have gone further
than any of them in generalizing the information-processing and storage
capabilities of our brains so that they are turing-equivalent AND ALSO
still optimized for carrying out instinctual behaviours, albeit in 
creative ways.

You brain is so much more than a computer.. think of it like a galaxy 
or even it's own universe.
I think that's going a little far in the Carl Sagan direction.

This all brings up more questions. What about memory transfer. We code 
our memory by the continious rearangement of pathways. Unless you 
could copy the coding and rearrangement, decode it by that persons 
CODING... 
I don't remember claiming (maybe someone else claimed) you could copy a 
mind.
I do believe we'll eventually be able to build them, (and not out of 
traditional
organic materials) but if we do build them, then once each A-mind
starts processing and assiimilating information from its uniquely 
situated point-of-view
and its unique experiences/learning sessions, then it will become 
different from all
other A-minds and from all other human minds, in the same way that ours are
different from each other because of nurture. There would be ways to mimic
differences in built-in biases, preferences, 
cognition-optimization-directions etc
as well, if that was useful for groups of A-minds.

The task is not only to understand what a human brain does in the process of
its being/becoming a mind. The task is to figure out IN GENERAL what
being a mind is and to figure out how the human brain is doing THAT and
also what are all the things that something other than a human brain would
have to do to be also doing THAT.
Eric