Re: Re: Re: Re: The pro-life paradox
Hi Richard Ruquist That is specified in my Living Will [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/21/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-20, 14:59:18 Subject: Re: Re: Re: The pro-life paradox Roger, Your pro-life stance includes the doctor keeping you alive at all costs whereas if you really believed in an afterlife, you are better off dead. Richard On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The pro-life paradox
On 20 Dec 2012, at 18:41, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal There is a gray area called quality of life. OK. Nice. Should I take this as a statement that there are some cases where you would not oppose to euthanasia? Everything of value, all colors, are in that gray area, I think. Bruno [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/20/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-20, 05:12:10 Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I define good as that which enhances life and evil as that which diminishes it. Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life? Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be contradictory. The question is: does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or suppress life? Bruno That's tricky. The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning the dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving the universe from one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. I don't know if most of them are naive believer in the sense that most doctors in this domain are well aware that it is a loosing battle, and I guess outing yourself as pro-euthanasia carries some heavy implications in your day to day practice, interaction, and judgement from peers, directors, and employers. I guess, most would be cooler with this if they could. So naive believer, yeah maybe some, but more I'd guess live in fear of getting their voice heard. To tackle the question straight-on: 1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, and the local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate forms before rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it seems like sometimes you forget with this kind of question :) I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor will transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and that can contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro-life activists. 2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit of nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was heard by the courts, any of you? Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are simple mind :) 3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible universe as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed you wished, you would go sign up for another round to be entangled with some strange universe physically again and push the format disk button once again and agree to all constraints, just for novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring here... but I am no chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans are winning, just to make it more interesting, because the platonic localities are too much already like here...also, I'll choose one where matter is really convincing and makes us unable to define life properly, so that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse the others a bit, hehe. OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question makes less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, even there. Bruno :) Cowboy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
Re: Re: The pro-life paradox
Hi Bruno Marchal Just as in jurisprudence, sometimes there are no easy answers. I am a Christian, and so oppose euthanasia as contrary to the Ten Commandments. But others presumably do not share that belief. And even I might break the commandment (to my peril) in exceptional cases. It is not for me to judge, it wouldn't matter anyway. That's up to God, IMHO. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/21/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-21, 10:44:44 Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox On 20 Dec 2012, at 18:41, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal There is a gray area called quality of life. OK. Nice. Should I take this as a statement that there are some cases where you would not oppose to euthanasia? Everything of value, all colors, are in that gray area, I think. Bruno [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/20/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-20, 05:12:10 Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I define good as that which enhances life and evil as that which diminishes it. Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life? Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be contradictory. The question is: does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or suppress life? Bruno That's tricky. The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning the dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving the universe from one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. I don't know if most of them are naive believer in the sense that most doctors in this domain are well aware that it is a loosing battle, and I guess outing yourself as pro-euthanasia carries some heavy implications in your day to day practice, interaction, and judgement from peers, directors, and employers. I guess, most would be cooler with this if they could. So naive believer, yeah maybe some, but more I'd guess live in fear of getting their voice heard. To tackle the question straight-on: 1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, and the local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate forms before rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it seems like sometimes you forget with this kind of question :) I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor will transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and that can contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro-life activists. 2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit of nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was heard by the courts, any of you? Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are simple mind :) 3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible universe as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed you wished, you would go sign up for another round to be entangled with some strange universe physically again and push the format disk button once again and agree to all constraints, just for novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring here... but I am no chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans are winning, just to make it more interesting, because the platonic localities are too much already like here...also, I'll choose one where matter is really convincing and makes us unable to define life properly, so that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse the others a bit, hehe. OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question makes less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, even there. Bruno :) Cowboy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email
Re: The pro-life paradox
On 19 Dec 2012, at 13:04, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Dear Bruno, Excuse if i donĀ“t address your question. I define good as that which enhances life and evil as that which diminishes it That is also my definition. Going a step further, good is tautological and absolute, in the same way that is evil: what is good lives, What is evil, perishes, The evil may recover itself from past defeats by ever recreating itself in new forms. The good stay and get transmitted from generation to generation by our genes and our memes. So it is in our nous, accessible to everyone. OK. That Roger's definition, but in human science there are always exceptional counter-example, like I illustrate with the prolife doctor. Enhancing life might depends on what we call life. Seventy years in a hospital surrounded by machines and tubes might not be an improvement, from the pov of some people. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The pro-life paradox
On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I define good as that which enhances life and evil as that which diminishes it. Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life? Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be contradictory. The question is: does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or suppress life? Bruno That's tricky. The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning the dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving the universe from one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. I don't know if most of them are naive believer in the sense that most doctors in this domain are well aware that it is a loosing battle, and I guess outing yourself as pro-euthanasia carries some heavy implications in your day to day practice, interaction, and judgement from peers, directors, and employers. I guess, most would be cooler with this if they could. So naive believer, yeah maybe some, but more I'd guess live in fear of getting their voice heard. To tackle the question straight-on: 1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, and the local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate forms before rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it seems like sometimes you forget with this kind of question :) I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor will transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and that can contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro- life activists. 2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit of nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was heard by the courts, any of you? Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are simple mind :) 3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible universe as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed you wished, you would go sign up for another round to be entangled with some strange universe physically again and push the format disk button once again and agree to all constraints, just for novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring here... but I am no chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans are winning, just to make it more interesting, because the platonic localities are too much already like here...also, I'll choose one where matter is really convincing and makes us unable to define life properly, so that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse the others a bit, hehe. OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question makes less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, even there. Bruno :) Cowboy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The pro-life paradox
On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I define good as that which enhances life and evil as that which diminishes it. Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life? Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be contradictory. The question is: does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or suppress life? Bruno That's tricky. The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning the dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving the universe from one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. I don't know if most of them are naive believer in the sense that most doctors in this domain are well aware that it is a loosing battle, and I guess outing yourself as pro-euthanasia carries some heavy implications in your day to day practice, interaction, and judgement from peers, directors, and employers. I guess, most would be cooler with this if they could. So naive believer, yeah maybe some, but more I'd guess live in fear of getting their voice heard. To tackle the question straight-on: 1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, and the local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate forms before rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it seems like sometimes you forget with this kind of question :) I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor will transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and that can contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro-life activists. Sure, point taken. If you restrict the thought experiment to locally, still: my point is, I have no idea what somebody goes through when in a coma from 1p. Have they become machine? Or are they having the best time ever? Depends on the outlook and types of condition of body, assuming absence of mind, in that state. I have heard of some brain injuries being restored after a person in Great Britain was placed on ketamine for two weeks, effectively vegetating in a disassociated state after some accident with unclear prospects on survival, and had an unexpected recovery. A reference: http://neurologyminutiae.blogspot.com/2011/11/ketamine-to-induce-coma-in-cases-of.html Apparently also useful for pain treatment, epileptic seizures etc. is to go into ketamine induced coma for some days and become vegetable. So, if I ever had an accident or emergency falling into these kinds of parameters, I would elect today, to try some ketamine for a few weeks, setting some limit, say 3 months, because I'm a slow type generally. 2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit of nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was heard by the courts, any of you? Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are simple mind :) I think he also didn't know about ketamine. 3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible universe as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed you wished, you would go sign up for another round to be entangled with some strange universe physically again and push the format disk button once again and agree to all constraints, just for novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring here... but I am no chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans are winning, just to make it more interesting, because the platonic localities are too much already like here...also, I'll choose one where matter is really convincing and makes us unable to define life properly, so that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse the others a bit, hehe. OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question makes less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, even there. Bruno So, I'd say yes vegetable body could enhance life, as in the above events, some patients with which such treatment succeed, are generally happy with the outcome of being treated this way. This is why I only select doctor that are neither pro-life nor pro-euthanasia, but that are cool. Maybe something better than ketamine is discovered on the day I have some accident and without my knowledge, my cool doctor should then apply that. If my choice is to face coma with a dissociative euphoriant vs. dignity of dying... I would try the euphoria for a couple of weeks and maybe be a happy vegetable, before I let them switch off
Re: Re: The pro-life paradox
Hi Bruno Marchal There is a gray area called quality of life. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/20/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-20, 05:12:10 Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I define good as that which enhances life and evil as that which diminishes it. Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life? Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be contradictory. The question is: does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or suppress life? Bruno That's tricky. The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning the dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving the universe from one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. I don't know if most of them are naive believer in the sense that most doctors in this domain are well aware that it is a loosing battle, and I guess outing yourself as pro-euthanasia carries some heavy implications in your day to day practice, interaction, and judgement from peers, directors, and employers. I guess, most would be cooler with this if they could. So naive believer, yeah maybe some, but more I'd guess live in fear of getting their voice heard. To tackle the question straight-on: 1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, and the local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate forms before rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it seems like sometimes you forget with this kind of question :) I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor will transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and that can contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro-life activists. 2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit of nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was heard by the courts, any of you? Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are simple mind :) 3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible universe as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed you wished, you would go sign up for another round to be entangled with some strange universe physically again and push the format disk button once again and agree to all constraints, just for novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring here... but I am no chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans are winning, just to make it more interesting, because the platonic localities are too much already like here...also, I'll choose one where matter is really convincing and makes us unable to define life properly, so that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse the others a bit, hehe. OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question makes less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, even there. Bruno :) Cowboy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: The pro-life paradox
Roger, I am amused the a believer like you does not factor in your thinking the existence of the afterlife. Richard On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal There is a gray area called quality of life. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/20/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-20, 05:12:10 Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I define good as that which enhances life and evil as that which diminishes it. Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life? Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be contradictory. The question is: does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or suppress life? Bruno That's tricky. The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning the dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving the universe from one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. I don't know if most of them are naive believer in the sense that most doctors in this domain are well aware that it is a loosing battle, and I guess outing yourself as pro-euthanasia carries some heavy implications in your day to day practice, interaction, and judgement from peers, directors, and employers. I guess, most would be cooler with this if they could. So naive believer, yeah maybe some, but more I'd guess live in fear of getting their voice heard. To tackle the question straight-on: 1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, and the local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate forms before rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it seems like sometimes you forget with this kind of question :) I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor will transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and that can contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro-life activists. 2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit of nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was heard by the courts, any of you? Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are simple mind :) 3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible universe as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed you wished, you would go sign up for another round to be entangled with some strange universe physically again and push the format disk button once again and agree to all constraints, just for novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring here... but I am no chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans are winning, just to make it more interesting, because the platonic localities are too much already like here...also, I'll choose one where matter is really convincing and makes us unable to define life properly, so that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse the others a bit, hehe. OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question makes less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, even there. Bruno :) Cowboy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: The pro-life paradox
Hi Richard Ruquist How so ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/20/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-20, 12:45:56 Subject: Re: Re: The pro-life paradox Roger, I am amused the a believer like you does not factor in your thinking the existence of the afterlife. Richard On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal There is a gray area called quality of life. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/20/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-20, 05:12:10 Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I define good as that which enhances life and evil as that which diminishes it. Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life? Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be contradictory. The question is: does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or suppress life? Bruno That's tricky. The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning the dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving the universe from one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. I don't know if most of them are naive believer in the sense that most doctors in this domain are well aware that it is a loosing battle, and I guess outing yourself as pro-euthanasia carries some heavy implications in your day to day practice, interaction, and judgement from peers, directors, and employers. I guess, most would be cooler with this if they could. So naive believer, yeah maybe some, but more I'd guess live in fear of getting their voice heard. To tackle the question straight-on: 1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, and the local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate forms before rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it seems like sometimes you forget with this kind of question :) I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor will transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and that can contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro-life activists. 2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit of nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was heard by the courts, any of you? Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are simple mind :) 3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible universe as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed you wished, you would go sign up for another round to be entangled with some strange universe physically again and push the format disk button once again and agree to all constraints, just for novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring here... but I am no chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans are winning, just to make it more interesting, because the platonic localities are too much already like here...also, I'll choose one where matter is really convincing and makes us unable to define life properly, so that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse the others a bit, hehe. OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question makes less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, even there. Bruno :) Cowboy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list
Re: Re: Re: The pro-life paradox
Roger, Your pro-life stance includes the doctor keeping you alive at all costs whereas if you really believed in an afterlife, you are better off dead. Richard On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The pro-life paradox
On 12/20/2012 5:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life? Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be contradictory. The question is: does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or suppress life? Bruno That's tricky. The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning the dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving the universe from one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. I don't know if most of them are naive believer in the sense that most doctors in this domain are well aware that it is a loosing battle, and I guess outing yourself as pro-euthanasia carries some heavy implications in your day to day practice, interaction, and judgement from peers, directors, and employers. I guess, most would be cooler with this if they could. So naive believer, yeah maybe some, but more I'd guess live in fear of getting their voice heard. To tackle the question straight-on: 1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, and the local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate forms before rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it seems like sometimes you forget with this kind of question :) I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor will transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and that can contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro-life activists. Dear PGC and Bruno, This is an excellent topic as it gets us into the ethical realm of comp! I am very happy to see this discussion! I have some questions. Are we thinking of Life qualitatively or quantitatively? Do we have a canonical definition of life with which to make judgements, as to its value, that are truthful under all conditions? 2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit of nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was heard by the courts, any of you? Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are simple mind :) Overly so, sadly. Rationality has an Achilies heel, it cannot see its own limitations. This is not to say that I advocate that we cast aside rationality, but that we understand that all reasoning is limited inherently by its premises, those axioms and truths that are assumed in its headcanon (to borrow a term from fan discussion groups) and so we just at least assume some form of believe in fallibility and always be on the look out for situations that are genuine failures to predict accurately, for our personal belief system's truths (aka headcanon). 3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible universe as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed you wished, you would go sign up for another round to be entangled with some strange universe physically again and push the format disk button once again and agree to all constraints, just for novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring here... but I am no chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans are winning, just to make it more interesting, because the platonic localities are too much already like here...also, I'll choose one where matter is really convincing and makes us unable to define life properly, so that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse the others a bit, hehe. OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question makes less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, even there. Bruno PGC, your scenario assumes the impossible: to maintain a memory of the flight one must have infinite memory storage capacity *and* the ability to instantly retrieve any bit of data from such. Our currently best theories that you would collapse into a black hole the instant you started such a flight if you where a physical being. If your a ghost and free from physical laws, how could you interact with physical worlds at all? But I think that you are trying to make a different point... Indefinite life extension seems to have a price, you can not remember who you where in any past incarnations. Actually, it would be accurate to say there there is no you in any 3p sense at all. There is only a 1p idea of what you thing you are and what you can prove. Betting that we survive a QS event is what we do continuously by interacting with the world, we survive physically in a 3p sense only
The pro-life paradox
On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I define good as that which enhances life and evil as that which diminishes it. Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life? Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be contradictory. The question is: does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or suppress life? Bruno [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/17/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-16, 14:31:22 Subject: Re: Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional,brainstudyshows On 12/16/2012 9:49 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: My standard comment is that the Democrats will say that they are going to do good things and not do them while Republicans will do bad things and then say that they are good. Hi Craig, To me it boils down to a willingness to be objective. If one defines a standard of measure of good and bad, then one must apply it consistently. Otherwise there is no such thing as good' or 'bad. Tribalism comes with a shiftable measure of good and bad (stealing from non-members of the tribe is OK, stealing from tribe members is bad, for example), this makes tribalism bad, IMHO, not matter what kind of tribalism it is! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: The pro-life paradox
Hi Alberto G. Corona And as the Bible says, the wages of sin is death. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/19/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Alberto G. Corona Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-19, 07:04:11 Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox Dear Bruno, Excuse if i don? address your question. I define good as that which enhances life and evil as that which diminishes it That is also my definition. Going a step further, good is tautological and absolute, in the same way that is evil: ?hat is good lives, What is evil, perishes, The evil may recover itself from past defeats by ever recreating itself in new forms. The good stay and get transmitted from generation to generation by our genes and our memes. So it is in our nous, accessible to everyone. 2012/12/19 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King ? I define good as that which enhances life and evil as that which diminishes it. Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life? Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be contradictory. The question is: ?oes an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or suppress life? Bruno ? ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/17/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen ? - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-16, 14:31:22 Subject: Re: Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional,brainstudyshows On 12/16/2012 9:49 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: My standard comment is that the Democrats will say that they are going to do good things and not do them while Republicans will do bad things and then say that they are good. Hi Craig, ?? To me it boils down to a willingness to be objective. If one defines a standard of measure of good and bad, then one must apply it consistently. Otherwise there is no such thing as good' or 'bad. Tribalism comes with a shiftable measure of good and bad (stealing from non-members of the tribe is OK, stealing from tribe members is bad, for example), this makes tribalism bad, IMHO, not matter what kind of tribalism it is! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The pro-life paradox
Hi Bruno Marchal Anything pro life saves life so is good. Euthanasia destroys life so is bad. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/19/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-19, 05:43:16 Subject: The pro-life paradox On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I define good as that which enhances life and evil as that which diminishes it. Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life? Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be contradictory. The question is: does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or suppress life? Bruno [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/17/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-16, 14:31:22 Subject: Re: Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional,brainstudyshows On 12/16/2012 9:49 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: My standard comment is that the Democrats will say that they are going to do good things and not do them while Republicans will do bad things and then say that they are good. Hi Craig, To me it boils down to a willingness to be objective. If one defines a standard of measure of good and bad, then one must apply it consistently. Otherwise there is no such thing as good' or 'bad. Tribalism comes with a shiftable measure of good and bad (stealing from non-members of the tribe is OK, stealing from tribe members is bad, for example), this makes tribalism bad, IMHO, not matter what kind of tribalism it is! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.