Re: Re: Re: Re: The pro-life paradox

2012-12-21 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist 

That is specified in my Living Will

[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/21/2012 
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen

- Receiving the following content - 
From: Richard Ruquist 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-12-20, 14:59:18
Subject: Re: Re: Re: The pro-life paradox


Roger,
Your pro-life stance includes the doctor keeping you alive at all costs
whereas if you really believed in an afterlife, you are better off dead.
Richard

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote:


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Re: The pro-life paradox

2012-12-21 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 20 Dec 2012, at 18:41, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Bruno Marchal

There is a gray area called quality of life.


OK. Nice. Should I take this as a statement that there are some cases  
where you would not oppose to euthanasia?


Everything of value, all colors,  are in that gray area, I think.

Bruno








[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/20/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen

- Receiving the following content -
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-12-20, 05:12:10
Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox


On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:




On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be  
wrote:


On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Stephen P. King

I define good as that which enhances life and evil
as that which diminishes it.


Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life?

Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive  
euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient into  
machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such, they  
disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be  
contradictory.


The question is:  does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance  
life or suppress life?


Bruno



That's tricky.

The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning  
the dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are  
saving the universe from one of its fundamental properties: death,  
entropy. I don't know if most of them are naive believer in the  
sense that most doctors in this domain are well aware that it is a  
loosing battle, and I guess outing yourself as pro-euthanasia  
carries some heavy implications in your day to day practice,  
interaction, and judgement from peers, directors, and employers. I  
guess, most would be cooler with this if they could. So naive  
believer, yeah maybe some, but more I'd guess live in fear of  
getting their voice heard.


To tackle the question straight-on:

1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions,  
and the local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate  
forms before rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it  
seems like sometimes you forget with this kind of question :)


I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life  
doctor will transform people into machine (as they do already  
somehow), and that can contradict the general anti-mechanist  
prejudice of many pro-life activists.






2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a  
bit of nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and  
wants modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his  
appeal was heard by the courts, any of you?


Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are  
simple mind :)





3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible  
universe as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any  
speed you wished, you would go sign up for another round to be  
entangled with some strange universe physically again and push the  
format disk button once again and agree to all constraints, just  
for novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring here... but I am no  
chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans are winning,  
just to make it more interesting, because the platonic localities  
are too much already like here...also, I'll choose one where matter  
is really convincing and makes us unable to define life properly,  
so that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse  
the others a bit, hehe.


OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such  
question makes less global sense in Platonia, but can still make  
sense locally, even there.


Bruno





:)

Cowboy

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Re: Re: The pro-life paradox

2012-12-21 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal 

Just as in jurisprudence, sometimes there are no easy answers.
I am a Christian, and so oppose euthanasia as
contrary to the Ten Commandments.

But others presumably do not share that belief.
And even I might break the commandment (to my peril)
in exceptional cases.

It is not for me to judge, it wouldn't matter anyway.
That's up to God, IMHO. 

[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/21/2012 
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen

- Receiving the following content - 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-12-21, 10:44:44
Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox




On 20 Dec 2012, at 18:41, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Bruno Marchal 

There is a gray area called quality of life.


OK. Nice. Should I take this as a statement that there are some cases where you 
would not oppose to euthanasia?


Everything of value, all colors,  are in that gray area, I think.


Bruno












[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/20/2012 
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen

- Receiving the following content - 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-12-20, 05:12:10
Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox




On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:





On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:



On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Stephen P. King 

I define good as that which enhances life and evil
as that which diminishes it.


Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life?


Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the 
result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are 
naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life 
activity begins to be contradictory.


The question is:  does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or 
suppress life?


Bruno





That's tricky. 

The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning the dying 
patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving the universe from 
one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. I don't know if most of them 
are naive believer in the sense that most doctors in this domain are well 
aware that it is a loosing battle, and I guess outing yourself as 
pro-euthanasia carries some heavy implications in your day to day practice, 
interaction, and judgement from peers, directors, and employers. I guess, most 
would be cooler with this if they could. So naive believer, yeah maybe 
some, but more I'd guess live in fear of getting their voice heard.

To tackle the question straight-on: 

1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, and the 
local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate forms before rental 
of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it seems like sometimes you forget 
with this kind of question :)



I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor will 
transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and that can 
contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro-life activists.







2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit of nausea 
after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants modification of 
warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was heard by the courts, any of 
you?



Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are simple mind 
:)





3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible universe as 
a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed you wished, you would 
go sign up for another round to be entangled with some strange universe 
physically again and push the format disk button once again and agree to all 
constraints, just for novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring here... but I 
am no chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans are winning, just 
to make it more interesting, because the platonic localities are too much 
already like here...also, I'll choose one where matter is really convincing and 
makes us unable to define life properly, so that I can pose this question in a 
forum someday, and confuse the others a bit, hehe.



OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question makes 
less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, even there.


Bruno







:)  

Cowboy



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Re: The pro-life paradox

2012-12-20 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 19 Dec 2012, at 13:04, Alberto G. Corona wrote:





Dear Bruno,
Excuse if i donĀ“t address your question.

I define good as that which enhances life and evil
as that which diminishes it
That is also my definition. Going a step further, good is  
tautological and absolute, in the same way that is evil:  what is  
good lives,


What is evil, perishes, The evil may recover itself from past  
defeats by ever recreating itself in new forms. The good stay and  
get transmitted from generation to generation by our genes and our  
memes. So it is in our nous, accessible to everyone.





OK. That Roger's definition, but in human science there are always  
exceptional counter-example, like I illustrate with the prolife  
doctor. Enhancing life might depends on what we call life. Seventy  
years in a hospital surrounded by machines and tubes might not be an  
improvement, from the pov of some people.


Bruno

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Re: The pro-life paradox

2012-12-20 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:




On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be  
wrote:


On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Stephen P. King

I define good as that which enhances life and evil
as that which diminishes it.


Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life?

Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive  
euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient into  
machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such, they  
disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be  
contradictory.


The question is:  does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance  
life or suppress life?


Bruno



That's tricky.

The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning  
the dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving  
the universe from one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy.  
I don't know if most of them are naive believer in the sense that  
most doctors in this domain are well aware that it is a loosing  
battle, and I guess outing yourself as pro-euthanasia carries  
some heavy implications in your day to day practice, interaction,  
and judgement from peers, directors, and employers. I guess, most  
would be cooler with this if they could. So naive believer, yeah  
maybe some, but more I'd guess live in fear of getting their voice  
heard.


To tackle the question straight-on:

1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions,  
and the local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate  
forms before rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it  
seems like sometimes you forget with this kind of question :)


I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor  
will transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and  
that can contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro- 
life activists.






2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit  
of nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and  
wants modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his  
appeal was heard by the courts, any of you?


Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are  
simple mind :)





3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible  
universe as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed  
you wished, you would go sign up for another round to be entangled  
with some strange universe physically again and push the format  
disk button once again and agree to all constraints, just for  
novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring here... but I am no  
chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans are winning,  
just to make it more interesting, because the platonic localities  
are too much already like here...also, I'll choose one where matter  
is really convincing and makes us unable to define life properly, so  
that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse the  
others a bit, hehe.


OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question  
makes less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally,  
even there.


Bruno





:)

Cowboy

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Re: The pro-life paradox

2012-12-20 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:


 On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:



 On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:


 On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote:

  Hi Stephen P. King

 I define good as that which enhances life and evil
 as that which diminishes it.


 Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life?

 Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia,
 with the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most
 of them are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their
 pro-life activity begins to be contradictory.

 The question is:  does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life
 or suppress life?

 Bruno



 That's tricky.

 The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning the
 dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving the
 universe from one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. I don't
 know if most of them are naive believer in the sense that most doctors in
 this domain are well aware that it is a loosing battle, and I guess
 outing yourself as pro-euthanasia carries some heavy implications in
 your day to day practice, interaction, and judgement from peers, directors,
 and employers. I guess, most would be cooler with this if they could. So
 naive believer, yeah maybe some, but more I'd guess live in fear of
 getting their voice heard.

 To tackle the question straight-on:

 1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, and the
 local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate forms before
 rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it seems like sometimes
 you forget with this kind of question :)


 I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor will
 transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and that can
 contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro-life activists.



Sure, point taken.

If you restrict the thought experiment to locally, still: my point is, I
have no idea what somebody goes through when in a coma from 1p. Have they
become machine? Or are they having the best time ever? Depends on the
outlook and types of condition of body, assuming absence of mind, in that
state.

I have heard of some brain injuries being restored after a person in Great
Britain was placed on ketamine for two weeks, effectively vegetating in a
disassociated state after some accident with unclear prospects on survival,
and had an unexpected recovery.

A reference:
http://neurologyminutiae.blogspot.com/2011/11/ketamine-to-induce-coma-in-cases-of.html

Apparently also useful for pain treatment, epileptic seizures etc. is to go
into ketamine induced coma for some days and become vegetable.

So, if I ever had an accident or emergency falling into these kinds of
parameters, I would elect today, to try some ketamine for a few weeks,
setting some limit, say 3 months, because I'm a slow type generally.




 2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit of
 nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants
 modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was heard
 by the courts, any of you?


 Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are simple
 mind :)


I think he also didn't know about ketamine.




 3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible
 universe as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed you
 wished, you would go sign up for another round to be entangled with some
 strange universe physically again and push the format disk button once
 again and agree to all constraints, just for novelty's sake and say sh*t,
 it's boring here... but I am no chicken, I choose a local universe where
 aristoteleans are winning, just to make it more interesting, because the
 platonic localities are too much already like here...also, I'll choose one
 where matter is really convincing and makes us unable to define life
 properly, so that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse
 the others a bit, hehe.


 OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question
 makes less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, even
 there.

 Bruno



So, I'd say yes vegetable body could enhance life, as in the above
events, some patients with which such treatment succeed, are generally
happy with the outcome of being treated this way.

This is why I only select doctor that are neither pro-life nor
pro-euthanasia, but that are cool. Maybe something better than ketamine
is discovered on the day I have some accident and without my knowledge, my
cool doctor should then apply that. If my choice is to face coma with a
dissociative euphoriant vs. dignity of dying... I would try the euphoria
for a couple of weeks and maybe be a happy vegetable, before I let them
switch off 

Re: Re: The pro-life paradox

2012-12-20 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal 

There is a gray area called quality of life.


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/20/2012 
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen

- Receiving the following content - 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-12-20, 05:12:10
Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox




On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:





On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:



On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Stephen P. King 

I define good as that which enhances life and evil
as that which diminishes it.


Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life?


Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the 
result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are 
naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life 
activity begins to be contradictory.


The question is:  does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or 
suppress life?


Bruno





That's tricky. 

The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning the dying 
patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving the universe from 
one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. I don't know if most of them 
are naive believer in the sense that most doctors in this domain are well 
aware that it is a loosing battle, and I guess outing yourself as 
pro-euthanasia carries some heavy implications in your day to day practice, 
interaction, and judgement from peers, directors, and employers. I guess, most 
would be cooler with this if they could. So naive believer, yeah maybe 
some, but more I'd guess live in fear of getting their voice heard.

To tackle the question straight-on: 

1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, and the 
local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate forms before rental 
of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it seems like sometimes you forget 
with this kind of question :)



I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor will 
transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and that can 
contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro-life activists.







2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit of nausea 
after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants modification of 
warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was heard by the courts, any of 
you?



Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are simple mind 
:)





3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible universe as 
a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed you wished, you would 
go sign up for another round to be entangled with some strange universe 
physically again and push the format disk button once again and agree to all 
constraints, just for novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring here... but I 
am no chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans are winning, just 
to make it more interesting, because the platonic localities are too much 
already like here...also, I'll choose one where matter is really convincing and 
makes us unable to define life properly, so that I can pose this question in a 
forum someday, and confuse the others a bit, hehe.



OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question makes 
less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, even there.


Bruno







:)  

Cowboy



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Re: Re: The pro-life paradox

2012-12-20 Thread Richard Ruquist
Roger,

I am amused the a believer like you
does not factor in your thinking
the existence of the afterlife.
Richard

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote:
 Hi Bruno Marchal

 There is a gray area called quality of life.


 [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
 12/20/2012
 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen


 - Receiving the following content -
 From: Bruno Marchal
 Receiver: everything-list
 Time: 2012-12-20, 05:12:10
 Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox


 On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:



 On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:


 On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote:

 Hi Stephen P. King

 I define good as that which enhances life and evil
 as that which diminishes it.


 Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life?

 Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with
 the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them
 are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life
 activity begins to be contradictory.

 The question is:  does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life
 or suppress life?

 Bruno



 That's tricky.

 The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning the
 dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving the
 universe from one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. I don't
 know if most of them are naive believer in the sense that most doctors in
 this domain are well aware that it is a loosing battle, and I guess outing
 yourself as pro-euthanasia carries some heavy implications in your day to
 day practice, interaction, and judgement from peers, directors, and
 employers. I guess, most would be cooler with this if they could. So
 naive believer, yeah maybe some, but more I'd guess live in fear of
 getting their voice heard.

 To tackle the question straight-on:

 1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, and the
 local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate forms before
 rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it seems like sometimes
 you forget with this kind of question :)


 I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor will
 transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and that can
 contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro-life activists.




 2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit of
 nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants
 modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was heard by
 the courts, any of you?


 Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are simple
 mind :)



 3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible universe
 as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed you wished, you
 would go sign up for another round to be entangled with some strange
 universe physically again and push the format disk button once again and
 agree to all constraints, just for novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring
 here... but I am no chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans
 are winning, just to make it more interesting, because the platonic
 localities are too much already like here...also, I'll choose one where
 matter is really convincing and makes us unable to define life properly, so
 that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse the others a
 bit, hehe.


 OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question makes
 less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, even there.

 Bruno




 :)

 Cowboy

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Re: Re: Re: The pro-life paradox

2012-12-20 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist 

How so ?


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/20/2012 
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen

- Receiving the following content - 
From: Richard Ruquist 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-12-20, 12:45:56
Subject: Re: Re: The pro-life paradox


Roger,

I am amused the a believer like you
does not factor in your thinking
the existence of the afterlife.
Richard

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote:
 Hi Bruno Marchal

 There is a gray area called quality of life.


 [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
 12/20/2012
 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen


 - Receiving the following content -
 From: Bruno Marchal
 Receiver: everything-list
 Time: 2012-12-20, 05:12:10
 Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox


 On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:



 On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:


 On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote:

 Hi Stephen P. King

 I define good as that which enhances life and evil
 as that which diminishes it.


 Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life?

 Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with
 the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them
 are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life
 activity begins to be contradictory.

 The question is: does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life
 or suppress life?

 Bruno



 That's tricky.

 The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning the
 dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving the
 universe from one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. I don't
 know if most of them are naive believer in the sense that most doctors in
 this domain are well aware that it is a loosing battle, and I guess outing
 yourself as pro-euthanasia carries some heavy implications in your day to
 day practice, interaction, and judgement from peers, directors, and
 employers. I guess, most would be cooler with this if they could. So
 naive believer, yeah maybe some, but more I'd guess live in fear of
 getting their voice heard.

 To tackle the question straight-on:

 1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, and the
 local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate forms before
 rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it seems like sometimes
 you forget with this kind of question :)


 I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor will
 transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and that can
 contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many pro-life activists.




 2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit of
 nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants
 modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was heard by
 the courts, any of you?


 Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are simple
 mind :)



 3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible universe
 as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed you wished, you
 would go sign up for another round to be entangled with some strange
 universe physically again and push the format disk button once again and
 agree to all constraints, just for novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring
 here... but I am no chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans
 are winning, just to make it more interesting, because the platonic
 localities are too much already like here...also, I'll choose one where
 matter is really convincing and makes us unable to define life properly, so
 that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse the others a
 bit, hehe.


 OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question makes
 less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, even there.

 Bruno




 :)

 Cowboy

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Re: Re: Re: The pro-life paradox

2012-12-20 Thread Richard Ruquist
Roger,
Your pro-life stance includes the doctor keeping you alive at all costs
whereas if you really believed in an afterlife, you are better off dead.
Richard

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote:


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Re: The pro-life paradox

2012-12-20 Thread Stephen P. King

On 12/20/2012 5:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 19 Dec 2012, at 17:01, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:




On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be 
mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:





Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life?

Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive
euthanasia, with the result that they transform dying patient
into machines. But most of them are naive believer, and as such,
they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life activity begins to be
contradictory.

The question is:  does an artificial, or even virtual body,
enhance life or suppress life?

Bruno


That's tricky.

The aristotelean pro-life doctor does not believe she/he is turning 
the dying patient into a machine. That Doctor thinks they are saving 
the universe from one of its fundamental properties: death, entropy. 
I don't know if most of them are naive believer in the sense that 
most doctors in this domain are well aware that it is a loosing 
battle, and I guess outing yourself as pro-euthanasia carries 
some heavy implications in your day to day practice, interaction, and 
judgement from peers, directors, and employers. I guess, most would 
be cooler with this if they could. So naive believer, yeah maybe 
some, but more I'd guess live in fear of getting their voice heard.


To tackle the question straight-on:

1) depends on manufacturer, market, price and warranty conditions, 
and the local universe. You did remember to submit the appropriate 
forms before rental of Bruno, didn't you? I say this, because it 
seems like sometimes you forget with this kind of question :)


I am not sure I get the point. Mine was only that the pro-life doctor 
will transform people into machine (as they do already somehow), and 
that can contradict the general anti-mechanist prejudice of many 
pro-life activists.


Dear PGC and Bruno,

This is an excellent topic as it gets us into the ethical realm of 
comp! I am very happy to see this discussion! I have some questions. Are 
we thinking of Life qualitatively or quantitatively? Do we have a 
canonical definition of life with which to make judgements, as to its 
value, that are truthful under all conditions?






2) Heidegger was just joking. Nobody was thrown; he just got a bit 
of nausea after signing all the soul-body binding contracts and wants 
modification of warranty terms. I don't know whether his appeal was 
heard by the courts, any of you?


Lol. But still don't see the point. keep in mind that logicians are 
simple mind :)


Overly so, sadly. Rationality has an Achilies heel, it cannot see 
its own limitations. This is not to say that I advocate that we cast 
aside rationality, but that we understand that all reasoning is limited 
inherently by its premises, those axioms and truths that are assumed in 
its headcanon (to borrow a term from fan discussion groups) and so we 
just at least assume some form of believe in fallibility and always be 
on the look out for situations that are genuine failures to predict 
accurately, for our personal belief system's truths (aka headcanon).






3) But after flying for platonic infinities through every possible 
universe as a disembodied soul eye with infinite memory at any speed 
you wished, you would go sign up for another round to be entangled 
with some strange universe physically again and push the format 
disk button once again and agree to all constraints, just for 
novelty's sake and say sh*t, it's boring here... but I am no 
chicken, I choose a local universe where aristoteleans are winning, 
just to make it more interesting, because the platonic localities are 
too much already like here...also, I'll choose one where matter is 
really convincing and makes us unable to define life properly, so 
that I can pose this question in a forum someday, and confuse the 
others a bit, hehe.


OK. But for once, my question was terrestrial. Of course such question 
makes less global sense in Platonia, but can still make sense locally, 
even there.


Bruno

PGC, your scenario assumes the impossible: to maintain a memory of 
the flight one must have infinite memory storage capacity *and* the 
ability to instantly retrieve any bit of data from such. Our currently 
best theories that you would collapse into a black hole the instant you 
started such a flight if you where a physical being. If your a ghost and 
free from physical laws, how could you interact with physical worlds at 
all? But I think that you are trying to make a different point...
Indefinite life extension seems to have a price, you can not 
remember who you where in any past incarnations. Actually, it would be 
accurate to say there there is no you in any 3p sense at all. There is 
only a 1p idea of what you thing you are and what you can prove. Betting 
that we survive a QS event is what we do continuously by interacting 
with the world, we survive physically in a 3p sense only 

The pro-life paradox

2012-12-19 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Stephen P. King

I define good as that which enhances life and evil
as that which diminishes it.


Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life?

Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia,  
with the result that they transform dying patient into machines. But  
most of them are naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp,  
and so their pro-life activity begins to be contradictory.


The question is:  does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance  
life or suppress life?


Bruno







[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/17/2012
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen

- Receiving the following content -
From: Stephen P. King
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-12-16, 14:31:22
Subject: Re: Moral evaluations of harm are instant and  
emotional,brainstudyshows


On 12/16/2012 9:49 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
My standard comment is that the Democrats will say that they are  
going to do good things and not do them while Republicans will do  
bad things and then say that they are good.



Hi Craig,

To me it boils down to a willingness to be objective. If one  
defines a standard of measure of good and bad, then one must apply  
it consistently. Otherwise there is no such thing as good' or  
'bad. Tribalism comes with a shiftable measure of good and bad  
(stealing from non-members of the tribe is OK, stealing from tribe  
members is bad, for example), this makes tribalism bad, IMHO, not  
matter what kind of tribalism it is!


--
Onward!

Stephen

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Re: Re: The pro-life paradox

2012-12-19 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Alberto G. Corona 

And as the Bible says, the wages of sin is death.


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/19/2012 
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen

- Receiving the following content - 
From: Alberto G. Corona 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-12-19, 07:04:11
Subject: Re: The pro-life paradox




Dear Bruno,
Excuse if i don? address your question.

I define good as that which enhances life and evil
as that which diminishes it
That is also my definition. Going a step further, good is tautological and 
absolute, in the same way that is evil: ?hat is good lives,

What is evil, perishes, The evil may recover itself from past defeats by ever 
recreating itself in new forms. The good stay and get transmitted from 
generation to generation by our genes and our memes. So it is in our nous, 
accessible to everyone.







2012/12/19 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be



On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Stephen P. King 
?
I define good as that which enhances life and evil
as that which diminishes it.


Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life?


Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the 
result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are 
naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life 
activity begins to be contradictory.


The question is: ?oes an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or 
suppress life?


Bruno








?
?
[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/17/2012 
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen
?
- Receiving the following content - 
From: Stephen P. King 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-12-16, 14:31:22
Subject: Re: Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional,brainstudyshows


On 12/16/2012 9:49 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

My standard comment is that the Democrats will say that they are going to do 
good things and not do them while Republicans will do bad things and then say 
that they are good.



Hi Craig,

?? To me it boils down to a willingness to be objective. If one defines a 
standard of measure of good and bad, then one must apply it consistently. 
Otherwise there is no such thing as good' or 'bad. Tribalism comes with a 
shiftable measure of good and bad (stealing from non-members of the tribe is 
OK, stealing from tribe members is bad, for example), this makes tribalism bad, 
IMHO, not matter what kind of tribalism it is!


-- 
Onward!

Stephen


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Re: The pro-life paradox

2012-12-19 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal 

Anything pro life saves life so is good.

Euthanasia destroys life so is bad.



[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/19/2012 
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen

- Receiving the following content - 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-12-19, 05:43:16
Subject: The pro-life paradox




On 17 Dec 2012, at 17:49, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Stephen P. King 

I define good as that which enhances life and evil
as that which diminishes it.


Is pro-life activism enhancing life or diminishing life?


Some pro-life doctor are against euthanasia, even passive euthanasia, with the 
result that they transform dying patient into machines. But most of them are 
naive believer, and as such, they disbelieve comp, and so their pro-life 
activity begins to be contradictory.


The question is:  does an artificial, or even virtual body, enhance life or 
suppress life?


Bruno










[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/17/2012 
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen

- Receiving the following content - 
From: Stephen P. King 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-12-16, 14:31:22
Subject: Re: Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional,brainstudyshows


On 12/16/2012 9:49 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

My standard comment is that the Democrats will say that they are going to do 
good things and not do them while Republicans will do bad things and then say 
that they are good.



Hi Craig,

To me it boils down to a willingness to be objective. If one defines a 
standard of measure of good and bad, then one must apply it consistently. 
Otherwise there is no such thing as good' or 'bad. Tribalism comes with a 
shiftable measure of good and bad (stealing from non-members of the tribe is 
OK, stealing from tribe members is bad, for example), this makes tribalism bad, 
IMHO, not matter what kind of tribalism it is!


-- 
Onward!

Stephen


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