Re: [Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-04-22 Thread Matthew Martin

On 2/22/07, Sankar P [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 
  - You need to add a view-column, Template name that will be
available
  for the Templates folder (only).  All messages stored as templates
  should have a name associated to identify the message-template. It is
  far more usable to read, Status Report, Release Announcement Mail,
  String Announcement Mail, ABI Break announcement ;-) etc., rather
  than opening every mail and seeing, Is this what I want to send now
?
 
 Shouldn't this act just like drafts?  Where are we going to get this
 template name? Would this even be all that useful?

It will be.

On a longer run, we are planning to have pre-defined templates as well.
A name for a template is always more useful than looking at the mail and
knowing. Some people do not even enable Message-Preview. And think how
useful a name for the template will be.

Consider the scenario when a new employee joins an office and the moment
he opens his Evolution, he can send things like Minutes-of-the-meeting,
Status-report, Meeting-agenda, Leave-letters in the company-prescribed
format. These standard templates will be pushed to his machine when the
machine was prepared for him. You can ask for the name of the template
once the user chooses, Save as template.



   Where should the name be stored? This is also not listed on the bounty.

  snip




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Re: [Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-02-22 Thread Srinivasa Ragavan

On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 00:38 -0700, Sankar P wrote:
 If all you need is just a non-deleting draft, you can use Edit as new
 message. I have felt that this shouldn't be restricted to Sent-items
 alone as we allow configurable sent-folders. IIRC, there is a bug for
 this as well. 
 
 Srini: Shall we make this available on all folders ?

Im not for this feature against templates. I feel that templates should
be treated seperately. But I feel that this menu item should be enabled
for all folder, unless it breaks mail abstraction if any.

-Srini
 

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Re: [Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-02-22 Thread Sankar P
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 13:32 +0530, Srinivasa Ragavan wrote:
 On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 00:38 -0700, Sankar P wrote:
  If all you need is just a non-deleting draft, you can use Edit as new
  message. I have felt that this shouldn't be restricted to Sent-items
  alone as we allow configurable sent-folders. IIRC, there is a bug for
  this as well. 
  
  Srini: Shall we make this available on all folders ?
 
 Im not for this feature against templates. I feel that templates should
 be treated seperately. But I feel that this menu item should be enabled
 for all folder, unless it breaks mail abstraction if any.


I am not sure if my previous mail made it clear. I am not against
implementation of templates. All I wanted to say was: When you need just
a non-deleting draft you can use Edit as new message as one. 

It is in the same way how we suggested people to use vFolders before we
came up with the account-level search.

Implementation of templates is a separate task that should be carried
out independent of the status of this.

 
 -Srini
  
 
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Re: [Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-02-22 Thread Sankar P
On Wed, 2007-02-21 at 12:15 -0600, Matthew Martin wrote:
 On 2/16/07, Sankar P [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 16:59 -0600, Matthew Martin wrote:
   I'm working on templates for evolution. I need to know where to put all
   the UI items for templates. There would need to be a save template,
   default new mail, and default reply items. I read some of the HIG and
   stuck them in there so I could write the code. Here's a link to the
   patches. http://mtt.martin.googlepages.com/ The first one is for
   evolution, and the second is for evolution-data-server.
 
 
  I looked at the patches attached in the above url. The patches are not
  yet complete so I am not doing an in-line patch-analysis reply. Some of
  my comments are :
 
  - An account should be able to choose, what should be the default
  template that it has to use and it should be noted that NONE should also
  be an option here.
   Where should this be added? Isn't this what the Default New Mail
 thing is for? Do we even need the default new mail? How useful would
 that be anyway?
 
  - You can add an option, File-New from templates which should list
  the templates and the user should be able to choose a template and start
  composing a mail. I will recommend getting a nod from Srini (CCed) for
  any usability/UI aspects regarding this, before you start coding.
 
  - You need to add a view-column, Template name that will be available
  for the Templates folder (only).  All messages stored as templates
  should have a name associated to identify the message-template. It is
  far more usable to read, Status Report, Release Announcement Mail,
  String Announcement Mail, ABI Break announcement ;-) etc., rather
  than opening every mail and seeing, Is this what I want to send now ?
 
 Shouldn't this act just like drafts?  Where are we going to get this
 template name? Would this even be all that useful?

It will be. 

On a longer run, we are planning to have pre-defined templates as well.
A name for a template is always more useful than looking at the mail and
knowing. Some people do not even enable Message-Preview. And think how
useful a name for the template will be. 

Consider the scenario when a new employee joins an office and the moment
he opens his Evolution, he can send things like Minutes-of-the-meeting,
Status-report, Meeting-agenda, Leave-letters in the company-prescribed
format. These standard templates will be pushed to his machine when the
machine was prepared for him. You can ask for the name of the template
once the user chooses, Save as template.


  - You need to close the composer once an user chooses Save
  Template (as of now it is not doing and it keeps on creating new
  templates) .
 Why should it do that? Saving a draft doesn't do this. Wouldn't this
 just annoy the user?

It shouldnt close. Your code creates a new copy of the template whenever
save is pressed. That also shouldnt be the behavior.

 
  - Reopening a template and saving it again should not create a new
  template.

As explained above.

 
  - Your patch misses mail.error.xml changes as a result none of the user
  choice-asking dialogs appear.
 
  - All mail operations like copy/move/DnD on templates folder should be
  disabled. (IMO, it is a lot more easier to implement a new tab under
  Composer-preferences than a new templates folder)
 
  - When there is a clash between account's default signature and the used
  template's signature, the template's signature should be given more
  priority.
 
  - The code to save a template should ensure teh uniqueness in naming
  etc.
 
  - There must be a way to create a normal new mail when the user has set
  a default-template. (May be a default Empty-mail template)
 
  This isn't clear enough. How should this be done? Should the whole
 default new mail idea be rethought? Should we just make this like a
 draft that doesn't delete itself?

What I am saying is: We may not want the same default new-mail template
for all the accounts. It should be chooseable per account. My office
account may need to have my company-logo, header, caption for all the
mails that I send using it. Whereas, my personal account may want to
default to a plain-text mail. 

And when the templates have a common storage that is not associated with
any account, it will be useable across the accounts. Like the ANNOUNCE
mail template that I described in my other mail.  And to send a mail
with in a defined template, just click on teh template, and choose
new-mail-from-this-template from a contextual menu and/or
file-new-mail-from-template which will list the templates. 


 
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  --
  Sankar
 
 
-- 
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Re: [Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-02-21 Thread Matthew Martin
On 2/16/07, Sankar P [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 16:59 -0600, Matthew Martin wrote:
  I'm working on templates for evolution. I need to know where to put all
  the UI items for templates. There would need to be a save template,
  default new mail, and default reply items. I read some of the HIG and
  stuck them in there so I could write the code. Here's a link to the
  patches. http://mtt.martin.googlepages.com/ The first one is for
  evolution, and the second is for evolution-data-server.


 I looked at the patches attached in the above url. The patches are not
 yet complete so I am not doing an in-line patch-analysis reply. Some of
 my comments are :

 - An account should be able to choose, what should be the default
 template that it has to use and it should be noted that NONE should also
 be an option here.
  Where should this be added? Isn't this what the Default New Mail
thing is for? Do we even need the default new mail? How useful would
that be anyway?

 - You can add an option, File-New from templates which should list
 the templates and the user should be able to choose a template and start
 composing a mail. I will recommend getting a nod from Srini (CCed) for
 any usability/UI aspects regarding this, before you start coding.

 - You need to add a view-column, Template name that will be available
 for the Templates folder (only).  All messages stored as templates
 should have a name associated to identify the message-template. It is
 far more usable to read, Status Report, Release Announcement Mail,
 String Announcement Mail, ABI Break announcement ;-) etc., rather
 than opening every mail and seeing, Is this what I want to send now ?

Shouldn't this act just like drafts?  Where are we going to get this
template name? Would this even be all that useful?

 - You need to close the composer once an user chooses Save
 Template (as of now it is not doing and it keeps on creating new
 templates) .
Why should it do that? Saving a draft doesn't do this. Wouldn't this
just annoy the user?

 - Reopening a template and saving it again should not create a new
 template.

 - Your patch misses mail.error.xml changes as a result none of the user
 choice-asking dialogs appear.

 - All mail operations like copy/move/DnD on templates folder should be
 disabled. (IMO, it is a lot more easier to implement a new tab under
 Composer-preferences than a new templates folder)

 - When there is a clash between account's default signature and the used
 template's signature, the template's signature should be given more
 priority.

 - The code to save a template should ensure teh uniqueness in naming
 etc.

 - There must be a way to create a normal new mail when the user has set
 a default-template. (May be a default Empty-mail template)

 This isn't clear enough. How should this be done? Should the whole
default new mail idea be rethought? Should we just make this like a
draft that doesn't delete itself?

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Re: [Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-02-21 Thread Sankar P
If all you need is just a non-deleting draft, you can use Edit as new
message. I have felt that this shouldn't be restricted to Sent-items
alone as we allow configurable sent-folders. IIRC, there is a bug for
this as well. 

Srini: Shall we make this available on all folders ?

-- 
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Re: [Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-02-21 Thread Andre Klapper
Am Donnerstag, den 22.02.2007, 00:38 -0700 schrieb Sankar P:
 If all you need is just a non-deleting draft, you can use Edit as new
 message. I have felt that this shouldn't be restricted to Sent-items
 alone as we allow configurable sent-folders. IIRC, there is a bug for
 this as well. 
 
 Srini: Shall we make this available on all folders ?

at least make it available for the Sent folders that are defined in the
preferences (for each[!] account), and subfolders of those Sent folders
(because i still think that one cannot re-send something that has
never been sent before). bug 205728.

cheers,
andre

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Re: [Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-02-21 Thread Andre Klapper
Am Donnerstag, den 22.02.2007, 00:38 -0700 schrieb Sankar P:
 If all you need is just a non-deleting draft, you can use Edit as new
 message.

err, well. this sounds as intuitive as possible to me, a kind of draft
feature (where i probably will always have to remove some email text
because i abuse a sent email as a draft), hidden as edit as new in
some obscure context menu...
i think that it will be you who will have to add this feature to the
FAQ, if this proposal was really meant seriously.

andre

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Re: [Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-02-19 Thread guenther
On Fri, 2007-02-16 at 12:32 +0530, Sankar P wrote:
 On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 23:22 +0100, guenther wrote:
  On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 21:05 +0530, Sankar P wrote:

   The Template should be singleton and each account may not have a
   separate template folder. (Should be like Outbox)
  
  I'm not sure I agree here.
  
  Still pondering, but... We offer per account Drafts folders. And I don't
  yet see, why either one should be limited to a single, particular
  machine in a, say, IMAP environment. Sent is not. Drafts is not. Why
  should Templates be?
  
  Based on this approach, I believe it actually should be per account,
  being configurable exactly like the other default folders. Also, this
  UI part should go there.
  
  After all, Templates are Drafts that do not delete them selves, right?
 
 Whatever we store under Templates are not completely formed messages.
 They will not have any sender/recipient that a basic mail will have. 

Drafts are not completely formed messages either. They can be saved
without any recipient. There is no difference between Drafts and
Templates here, so this is not a reason to prevent per-account folders.

Regarding them having no sender: This of course would not be an issue
when allowing per-account Templates folders. Also, if the basic
mechanism works just like Drafts, there always is an account associated
to them -- which may be changed before sending.


 Also it will contain things like ${DATE}, ${me},
 Reference-to-a-SIGNATURE-FILE, which takes some special interpretation
 that is specific to Evolution alone.

I seriously hope the ${DATE} example is just badly picked. This would
mean that shell script and Makefile snippets likely can't be stored in a
Template. Since GtkHTML uses HTML internally, storing variables and
placeholders in XML format is about the only safe choice.


 Overall, it is just Evolution that can make meaning out of a thing that
 is stored as a template in Evolution. It may not be of any use to other
 mail clients. So, I do not see any benefit by putting it in the server.

I do.

The benefit of IMAP is not only that you're client independent -- but
that you are location/machine independent. Yes, you can use the very
same IMAP account from different installations of the very same IMAP
client (let's just call that client Evolution...).

Another Advantage is that multiple, different accounts may have totally
different types of Templates.


 It is more like Signatures that are specific to Evolution and are stored
 locally in Evolution.
 
 What will be really useful will be to have Names for these templates and
 we can associate a default template for an account (Again like
 signatures). These names can be used to choose, from New from Template
 dialog as well; Like OO templates-choosing dialog.

A basic approach to have Templates is the very same mechanism used for
Drafts. Except, that editing and sending a Template does not remove the
source.

What you just described here, is way more than Templates IMHO. It is
like a configurable template for New messages and Replies (otherwise
the ${DATE} doesn't make any sense to me). Also, having what you
described would render Signatures totally useless.


I believe, rather than hacking on some Templates thingy and discussing
about how to implement it, we first need to figure out what it is
supposed to accomplish, and how it could integrate with the current UI
and workflow of the existing user base.


IMHO a Template actually is pretty much the same as a Draft. And one of
the most important target uses for it are similar if not identical
messages you keep on sending. This btw is exactly, what users have been
asking for for a long time. Drafts, that don't vanish. Messages which
the user can write and format once -- and then send it out with just
some (user specific) placeholders substituted, or simply filled out.
Like a differing name, ETA, price, login, ...

  guenther


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Re: [Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-02-19 Thread guenther
On Fri, 2007-02-16 at 14:09 +0530, Sankar P wrote:

 I looked at the patches attached in the above url. The patches are not
 yet complete so I am not doing an in-line patch-analysis reply. Some of
 my comments are :
 
 - An account should be able to choose, what should be the default
 template that it has to use and it should be noted that NONE should also
 be an option here.

This is not how I understood the long-time user-requested feature of
Templates. See my previous mail -- what are we really discussing here?


 - You can add an option, File-New from templates which should list
 the templates and the user should be able to choose a template and start
 composing a mail. I will recommend getting a nod from Srini (CCed) for
 any usability/UI aspects regarding this, before you start coding.

Exactly. This approach introduces a *lot* of UI issues and different
concepts, that need to be discussed before implementing it.


 - You need to add a view-column, Template name that will be available
 for the Templates folder (only).  All messages stored as templates
 should have a name associated to identify the message-template. It is
 far more usable to read, Status Report, Release Announcement Mail,
 String Announcement Mail, ABI Break announcement ;-) etc., rather
 than opening every mail and seeing, Is this what I want to send now ?

Where did the Template name come from?? So far I haven't seen any
mention of an additional text input field for this in the Composer, or
any other way to define it. I did not get the impression either this has
been planned when discussing Templates with Matthew on IRC.


 - You need to close the composer once an user chooses Save
 Template (as of now it is not doing and it keeps on creating new
 templates) .

NO. This is totally wrong.  Example: Every bloody text editor. Saving a
document does not close the editor.


 - Reopening a template and saving it again should not create a new
 template.
 
 - Your patch misses mail.error.xml changes as a result none of the user
 choice-asking dialogs appear.
 
 - All mail operations like copy/move/DnD on templates folder should be
 disabled. (IMO, it is a lot more easier to implement a new tab under
 Composer-preferences than a new templates folder)
 
 - When there is a clash between account's default signature and the used
 template's signature, the template's signature should be given more
 priority.
 
 - The code to save a template should ensure teh uniqueness in naming
 etc.

Which code to save the Template. What name (again)?

The current implementation is just like Drafts. The list view is. And
there is no uniqueness other than a mail is a mail is mail. Templates
(currently) are stored using the Evo internal (actually, account
specific) backend. That is a single mbox file, internally.

For Drafts it is totally valid to have multiple Drafts with the same
Subject. And users are used to deal with lousy Subjects, providing no
information at all. They do send it out all the time. They receive it
all the time. And yet they somehow manage to distinguish between them.
(How many mails with Subjects like your info do you get? Or the all
time classics for mailing lists: help and $app error.)


 - There must be a way to create a normal new mail when the user has set
 a default-template. (May be a default Empty-mail template)

The current discussion shows, we first need to decide what this mystery
Template thingy actually is about...

  guenther


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Re: [Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-02-15 Thread Sankar P
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 23:22 +0100, guenther wrote:
 On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 21:05 +0530, Sankar P wrote:
  On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 16:59 -0600, Matthew Martin wrote:
 
   I need to know where to put all
   the UI items for templates. There would need to be a save template,
   default new mail, and default reply items. I read some of the HIG and
   stuck them in there so I could write the code. Here's a link to the
   patches. http://mtt.martin.googlepages.com/ The first one is for
   evolution, and the second is for evolution-data-server.
  
  I had a look at the patch in the above url and some things that I found
  on an first-look are:
  
  The Template should be singleton and each account may not have a
  separate template folder. (Should be like Outbox)
 
 I'm not sure I agree here.
 
 Still pondering, but... We offer per account Drafts folders. And I don't
 yet see, why either one should be limited to a single, particular
 machine in a, say, IMAP environment. Sent is not. Drafts is not. Why
 should Templates be?
 
 Based on this approach, I believe it actually should be per account,
 being configurable exactly like the other default folders. Also, this
 UI part should go there.
 
 After all, Templates are Drafts that do not delete them selves, right?


Whatever we store under Templates are not completely formed messages.
They will not have any sender/recipient that a basic mail will have. 

Also it will contain things like ${DATE}, ${me},
Reference-to-a-SIGNATURE-FILE, which takes some special interpretation
that is specific to Evolution alone.

Overall, it is just Evolution that can make meaning out of a thing that
is stored as a template in Evolution. It may not be of any use to other
mail clients. So, I do not see any benefit by putting it in the server.

It is more like Signatures that are specific to Evolution and are stored
locally in Evolution.

What will be really useful will be to have Names for these templates and
we can associate a default template for an account (Again like
signatures). These names can be used to choose, from New from Template
dialog as well; Like OO templates-choosing dialog.

 
   guenther
 
 
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Re: [Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-02-12 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
Hi Andre,

 Thank you for your concern - but I believe I *did* give Matthew some
feedback on the patch over IRC (see Chat transcript [1] below) a couple
of weeks ago - about a possible ABI violation and a possible way to
avoid it and he had agreed to rework that bit.  

We do love those who love to hack on Evo :-).

Cheers,
Harish


[1] Log - #evolution - 29 Jan 2007

(20:19:07) xfceslacker: harish is there something wrong with the email I
sent?(http://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-hackers/2007-January/msg00053.html)
(20:20:23) harish: xfceslacker: none
(20:21:42) xfceslacker: I waited nearly a month for a response on my
last email.
(http://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-hackers/2007-January/msg0.html)
(20:22:05) harish: except that on a very quick glance at the patch - I
feel that inserting a new element into an enum set violates the ABI
(20:22:25) xfceslacker: ok
(20:22:30) xfceslacker: thanks
(20:22:31) xfceslacker: :)
(20:23:16) harish: xfceslacker: I do not primarily hack on the mailer
component - I have poked those who do to have a look at it and provide a
response
snip
(20:23:46) harish: xfceslacker: sorry - the team is swamped by quite a
bit of work..thanks for your patience
(20:23:53) xfceslacker: ok.
(20:24:01) xfceslacker: Anything else you see wrong with the patch?
(20:25:36) xfceslacker: I know my em_utils_load_template function is
ugly.
(20:25:42) harish: xfceslacker: I am not the best person to make the
call - but I'd prefer if you could append the new value so it extends
the current set. 
(20:26:00) xfceslacker: ok
(20:27:06) xfceslacker: You're talking about _mail_component_folder_t
right?
(20:27:35) xfceslacker: or enum {
(20:27:35) xfceslacker:  SEND,
(20:27:35) xfceslacker:  SAVE_DRAFT,
(20:27:35) xfceslacker: + SAVE_TEMPLATE,
(20:27:35) xfceslacker:  LAST_SIGNAL
(20:27:35) xfceslacker:  };
(20:29:04) xfceslacker: or both?
(20:30:19) harish: _e_account_item_t on libedataserver
(20:30:27) xfceslacker: oh
(20:30:29) xfceslacker: sorry
(20:31:14) harish: Evolution is not a devel library...EDS is more
religious about changes 

On Sun, 2007-02-11 at 02:30 +0100, Andre Klapper wrote:
 may a developer answer this, or shall matthew ask for a third time on
 this list, after waiting for six weeks for some feedback?
 
 andre
 


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Re: [Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-02-10 Thread Andre Klapper
may a developer answer this, or shall matthew ask for a third time on
this list, after waiting for six weeks for some feedback?

andre


Am Freitag, den 26.01.2007, 16:59 -0600 schrieb Matthew Martin:
 I'm working on templates for evolution. I need to know where to put all
 the UI items for templates. There would need to be a save template,
 default new mail, and default reply items. I read some of the HIG and
 stuck them in there so I could write the code. Here's a link to the
 patches. http://mtt.martin.googlepages.com/ The first one is for
 evolution, and the second is for evolution-data-server.
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[Evolution-hackers] Where to put UI items for templates (Bug #127529)

2007-01-26 Thread Matthew Martin
I'm working on templates for evolution. I need to know where to put all
the UI items for templates. There would need to be a save template,
default new mail, and default reply items. I read some of the HIG and
stuck them in there so I could write the code. Here's a link to the
patches. http://mtt.martin.googlepages.com/ The first one is for
evolution, and the second is for evolution-data-server.

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