I've not had time to follow this whole thread, but, reading this post at random, I'd say that Sal and Curtis are doing a fine job defending my ass. The only thing about karma that I know for sure is that it is as unfathomable as God (its alleged author) is; if there ain't one, then karma is as unfathomable as the great and universal as well as necessarily eternal abyss of human ignorance is.
That being the case (and it's airtight), I'd have to say that any statement about what anyone deserves in this world is arrogant, stupid, and cruel, not to mention narrow-minded. And I thought so the first time I heard a TM-gov mouthe that piece of fascist bull-shit back in the seventies. Sorry, Jim, I love you, Bro, but that's my honest to God opinion. Speaking of God. Is there or ain't there? It's kind of a non-question. But I'm in the mood to entertain it. Questions exist in the world of language. So do religions. But like language, religions have a universal deep structure and they also have an infinitely various pashyanti, or Jungian, layer. So is there a God? Where God is, there is no question about it. When my grandfather taught me to memorize the Second Chapter of Luke, he took a phrase from it, and used it as a mantra in programming me. When he couldn't or wouldn't answer a question I had, he'd say, "Do with words what Mary did"--"Do what Mary did." In the English Bibles extant, I think none of them grasp the depth of Gramp's reading of Luther for openers into the deep structure of that text, a deep structure which he interpolated from being fluent in about five languages. Multi-lingualism has that effect. That's why you find so many mystics in the history of translation studies. In English, when Mary heard all kinds of outrageous stuff about her baby from the shepherds, the angel, and the three wise guys, not to mention Joseph and her family and the rest of the world, she kept these things and pondered them in her heart. In German, they are not things she ponders, they are words. That makes a world of difference. Also, in German, she doesn't ponder. What she does is linguistically really complicated in terms of generating a field of meaning, rather than a single point. She gives truth to the words in her heart, where she guards them, and in guarding them, she also gives them paths to travel until they arrive at spirit and illuminate all there is. --- curtisdeltablues <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You claimed things are going along just perfectly, > that everyone gets > > what they "deserve," and that that's karma, baby. > Angela asked, > > quite reasonably, if you then believed that > children that suffered > > horrible fates were getting what they deserve. > > > This inherent cruelty and victimizing the victim is > really at the core > of karmic theory. Since no one experiences karmic > law directly, it is > another dusty old theory from a culture who didn't > even understand the > circulation of blood. (hint: the heart is key) > > That isn't to say it was a uniquely ignorant > culture. They understood > plenty of stuff about human nature and political > realities of power > and we are standing on their shoulders today. But > to give them credit > for understanding such an ultimate principle of the > universe pushes my > credulity too far. You have to also believe that > their gods were > unique among mythological creations of man and could > actually describe > such mechanics to human intelligence. Again with > the "its in the > scripture so it must be true" epistemological basis > for the claim. > Isn't everyone just tired of this claim? It is so > transparently bogus > with all the scriptures disagreeing on even the most > basic ultimate > questions. > > And with the playboy Krishna dropping the > "Unfathomable" bomb on us > concerning our ability to understand Karma, we are > left as we were > before, humans scratching our heads about why shit > happens. We don't > know, and pat "explanations" like Karmic theory > doesn't advance our > understanding at all IMO. It just gives certain > people the > unwarranted smugness that they understand why some > kids are born > deformed while the rest of us are left with the less > tidy, but more > honest statement, that we haven't got a freak'n clue > about why there > is suffering in the world. The question seems > irrelevant to any > efforts to reduce suffering a tad. > > Very interesting intersection of religious and > secular world views n > this discussion. Thanks for bringing it up Angela, > Jim and Sal. > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > On Apr 11, 2008, at 11:48 AM, sandiego108 wrote: > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela > Mailander > > > <mailander111@> wrote: > > >> > > >> Do you feel comfortable in asserting that, for > > >> example, children being burned by white > phosphorus is > > >> what they deserved? > > >> Do you think that feelings such as that may > incur > > >> their own karma? > > >> > > > What would you have me do with your memory of > children being burned? > > > Say that it is false, that it shouldn't exist? > That it will > > > magically be erased from your memory because it > is painful to you? > > > > > > What do you want out of this? For me to recant > and say, yes, I am > > > uncomfortable with children being burned, and > therefore it will > > > never happen again? That we will all > collectively pray, and work the > > > rest of our lives to ensure that this and the > near infinite horrors > > > experienced on this planet will vanish as a > result? > > > > > > I am at a loss to understand the intent of your > question, and as > > > such don't know where to begin to answer it. > > > > The intent of Angela's question is irrelevant, > Jim, as is your > > weasel response. If you weren't so intent on > constantly playing the > > village idiot and doing whatever you can to stay > the center of > > attention and salve your pathetic ego, maybe you > could have seen that. > > > > So, for your obviously entitlement-challenged > benefit, I'll > > repeat it again in my own words: > > > > You claimed things are going along just perfectly, > that everyone gets > > what they "deserve," and that that's karma, baby. > Angela asked, > > quite reasonably, if you then believed that > children that suffered > > horrible fates were getting what they deserve. > > > > There, that wasn't so tough now, was it? And for > the record, > > Angela said nothing about memory, recanting, > > or much of the other idiocy you spouted. > > > > Angela, if I've gotten anything wrong, let me > know. > > > > Sal > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
