Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
In that last part he was referring to me because I have stated here on FFL that
I practice chi gung, which has nothing to do with religion, nor kung fu for
that matter, except that some martial arts practitioners use chi gung to
increase their chi for their martial arts practice. Richard is just a guy who
likes to disparage anyone that is not a rabid TM fan, frothing at the mouth in
bliss over every little thing Marshy and the TMO ever did and said.
On Fri, 5/2/14, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 3:20 AM
---In
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote
:
On
5/1/2014 7:48 PM, Michael Jackson
wrote:
Only to a Marshy/Benjy Creme
sycophant like you
Nabster - Curtis comes across as pretty rational and
balanced to
people not wearing a My-Guru-Makes-Me-Special
blinders.
What you need to realize is that Curtis and Barry sold the
names of
the Hindu gods for money and THEN they did a 180 after
twenty
years - so why would anything they say now be
taken as
rational?
C: I've done
180 on beliefs I held yesterday Richard. Haven't you?
Your standard for judging rationality from the perspective
of the past is seriously flawed. But on the other hand I
don't ever expect anyone to assume anything I say is
anything, that is up to you to decide its value today. Not
from the perspective of ideas I once held and then
discarded. When Lincoln was accused of flip flopping on a
POV he said I do not
think much of a man who is not wiser today than he
was yesterday.
R:According to Sam Harris, if a person declares a belief in
something
like human levitation, this alone should immediately make
their
every statement suspect in the eyes of anyone they are
dialoging
with - because asserting a similarly non-evidentiary point
on a
religious doctrine ought to be met with similar disrespect.
C: I guess it is precisely
the evidentiary nature of the experience you are referring
to that is the relevant issue isn't it?
R: Which is not to say they aren't nice people and
talented, but even
common sense would dictate that they be questioned closely
concerning their own beliefs. Which is not to say that you
aren't a
nice person and talented, but you are acting like a True
Believer
yourself, if for no other reason than you are practicing a
Chinese
Kung Fu religion for two years and sucking up to Curtis and
Barry
now. Go figure.
C: I
didn't get that last part but I would be the first to
advocate being highly skeptical of anything I write here and
use your own proof system and bullshit detector. i certainly
try to run the same thing on myself and others here but am
as subject to human folly and personal bias as anyone. That
means anyone. We do our best and still get it wrong anyway.
I am happy to approach being less obviously wrong about what
I believe. That seems like enough to bite off for me.
Are you doing any better?
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
You know, I had never thought of it that way, but the Big M really DID shape
our beliefs not only about the world around us and about ourselves but about TM
itself which was a core aspect of his selling TM and its adjunct programs to
everyone. Thank you for the insight Curtis.
On Fri, 5/2/14, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR
afterall
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 3:39 AM
I believe this is what Sam Harris is advocating,
separating the practices from the beliefs. I do not believe
all meditations lead to the same mental states. TM has never
been taught this way through the organization so I guess we
don't know what innocent TM practice would be like.Even
after dropping the beliefs my TM practice was influenced by
what I had previously believed about it. Shaping our beliefs
about the practice was a huge priority for Maharishi.
I am hoping to enjoy
mindfulness sitting with less concept clutter. Of course I
can only be marginally successful with this goal, but I am
not presently reading a bunch of stuff about it yet. Someday
I'm sure I will, but I would like some more less
filtered experience first. This is pretty much the
reverse of how I approached TM.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
punditster@... wrote :
On
5/1/2014 9:43 PM,
curtisdeltablues@...
wrote:
It's all
the same Unified Field once you get going.
C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that
came
from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify
himself
as a Buddhist.
The concepts and practices of Buddhism,
according to Stephen
Batchelor, are not something to believe in but
something to
do. It is a practice that we can all engage in,
regardless of our background or beliefs, as we live every
day on the
path to spiritual enlightenment.
Basic TM is Buddhist yoga - it may be that MMY should have
left it
at that and retired back in 1955 instead of muddying the
waters, so
to speak. Basic TM should be able to stand on its own.
That's what I
think.
Recommended:
'Buddhism Without Beliefs: A Contemporary Guide to
Awakening'
by Stephen Batchelor
Riverhead Trade, 1998
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[FairfieldLife] 3 Years of Transcendental Meditation = Gratitude
It's from the Digital Buddhist so it must be true :-) : On April 30th 2011, I learned the method of Transcendental Meditation… And since then I have experienced the most productive and present 3 years of my life; which includes moving to New York City and turning an idea I had, into a successful tech startup http://www.tawkers.com/. 3 Years of Transcendental Meditation = Gratitude http://digitalbuddhist.com/post/84361190650/3-years-of-transcendental-meditation-gratitude http://digitalbuddhist.com/post/84361190650/3-years-of-transcendental-meditation-gratitude 3 Years of Transcendental Meditation = Gratitude http://digitalbuddhist.com/post/84361190650/3-years-of-transcendental-meditation-gratitude On April 30th 2011, I learned the method of Transcendental Meditation… And since then I have experienced the most productive and present 3 years of my life; which ... View on digitalbuddhist.com http://digitalbuddhist.com/post/84361190650/3-years-of-transcendental-meditation-gratitude Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
But Curtis, you already have some big filters: one, and imo the most significant one, that it's preferable to come to a new experience as filter free as possible. Shouldn't we challenge this belief too? And two, don't you already have some significant filters about mindfulness simply from reading about it here and elsewhere? Not to mention, from all your experiences and beliefs around TM? And Richard, how can we possibly separate belief and practice completely? I don't think we can simply because we don't live our lives with our heads cut off from our bodies! On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:39 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: I believe this is what Sam Harris is advocating, separating the practices from the beliefs. I do not believe all meditations lead to the same mental states. TM has never been taught this way through the organization so I guess we don't know what innocent TM practice would be like.Even after dropping the beliefs my TM practice was influenced by what I had previously believed about it. Shaping our beliefs about the practice was a huge priority for Maharishi. I am hoping to enjoy mindfulness sitting with less concept clutter. Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal, but I am not presently reading a bunch of stuff about it yet. Someday I'm sure I will, but I would like some more less filtered experience first. This is pretty much the reverse of how I approached TM. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 9:43 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: It's all the same Unified Field once you get going. C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that came from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify himself as a Buddhist. The concepts and practices of Buddhism, according to Stephen Batchelor, are not something to believe in but something to do. It is a practice that we can all engage in, regardless of our background or beliefs, as we live every day on the path to spiritual enlightenment. Basic TM is Buddhist yoga - it may be that MMY should have left it at that and retired back in 1955 instead of muddying the waters, so to speak. Basic TM should be able to stand on its own. That's what I think. Recommended: 'Buddhism Without Beliefs: A Contemporary Guide to Awakening' by Stephen Batchelor Riverhead Trade, 1998 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Richard, I don't think *thinking things over in the conscious mind* really describes TM! Though it is one possible definition of meditation. On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:11 PM, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/1/2014 8:18 PM, Share Long wrote: Richard, sense of self vanishing and having greater well being sounds like what happens during TM! That's because mindfullness training is just like TM practice, Share, and has the same goals - mental and physical well-being. TM practice is essentially Buddhist yoga. It's a lot easier to understand when you realize that meditation is just thinking things over in your conscious mind. It's not complicated. On Thursday, May 1, 2014 7:10 PM, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Heaven on Earth for all Humankind
But Buck, the soil is so polluted now that probably all it's good for is to grow a gasoline additive! On Thursday, May 1, 2014 8:57 PM, dhamiltony...@yahoo.com dhamiltony...@yahoo.com wrote: And then the accelerating problem; the aggregating farm monopolies bull-dozing farmsteads that once housed livestock. .. Bull-dozing of the mixed farms, farms consolidated and dozed down, just to get a few more acres to grow more gasohol for cars. Yesterday I drove by a farm north of Fairfield, Iowa a ways out on the Pleasant Plain road where they were taking down a farm's field fence, out with dozers rolling up rods of good field fence just to be able to plow up to the road edge and plant more gasohol. Livestock gone. We are witnessing the end of an epoch. With the demise and succession of the WWII generation farmer of 360 acre farms and the consolidation to 720acres and 1080acre farms to 3, 4, 7,16,000 acre holdings comes the end of very many humans being much close at all to any animal husbandry with large mammals anymore. You can see this now compared even to five and ten years ago at the County level and State Fairs. There are not nearly any animal projects now with the end of mixed agricultural family farming and the collapse of those farmsteads out on the landscape. Farm operation is all going to growing gasohol and corporate animal feeding. It is really quite stunning to see the collapse of diversified agriculture in such a short period of time. Care-taking large animals has always been an important practical and spiritual schooling in humanity, a laboratory cultivating in skill sets towards being a good human being. It just does not work well with animals unless you are a good person. Taking care of animals is always an exercise in humanity. Any effective leader of humanity in history it seems characteristically was once a care-taker of large animals, a sheep or goat herder child, herdsmen with cows, bullocks, horses, elephants. Just using a buggy horse to drive the long district court circuit like an Abraham Lincoln. With equines, like a Grant, Churchill, Marshall, Pershing, Patton, Truman, Eisenhower, Reagan each. ...practiced at being good at being a good human being in skill sets taking care of animals in nature. That has mostly come to and end. Inside of 50 years this is a huge change in the relationship of humans with large nature. Now great leadership is only incubated and left to come out of what? Internet and social media forums, social -science, law and business schools, and some on-the-job or interning experience. May the Unified Field Transcendent help us. I hope always that city people will support small farming and people who raise livestock on their own independent of the corporations. The opening of America to small farms and the opportunity for ownership was always what made America what it was. In the last few years with this aggregation taking place in large corporate agriculture and land-holding consolidation that has ended. May the Unified Field Transcendent God save the country, -Buck Authfriend writes: Those sure are some gorgeous Jerseys they've got. They make the huge hulking Holsteins that supply supermarket milk look like ungainly monsters. (Not the Holsteins' fault; they were bred that way to give as much milk as possible. But it isn't anywhere as good as milk from Jerseys.) A beautiful key to creating Heaven on Earth for all mankind, the proper treatment of the cows http://www.universalfields.org/index.html Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Maharishi-ji!
[FairfieldLife] Re: In Transcendentalism,
WE ARE A LIVING EXPRESSION OF the TRANSCENDENT'S PERFECTION. Every individual is a living expression of a perfection of the Unified Field, in wholeness, power, creativity, and joy. We have within us the pattern of perfection and the ability to bring it into manifestation. Today, and every day, have the opportunity to be God the Unified Field manifest in expression. By fully being all who you are, demonstrate the Unified Field Transcendent in our own unique ways. Offer love and kindness, peace and acceptance to others as a saint. Act with honor and integrity and live a joyous and fulfilling life. We are made in the image and likeness of the God Field the Transcendent Unified Field, a living expression of Natural Law here to express, as fully, a divine nature of Being. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Unified Field incarnate within you, which you have from from the Transcendent?—1 Corinthians 6:19 Jai Gurus Dev. Paraphrasing from Daily Word, -Buck BLESS THIS GLORIOUS PLANET AND ALL THAT LIVE UPON IT. In Genesis we read, “In the beginning, of the Unified Field came the heavens and the earth … Then in vibration the Unified Field Transcendent felt, ‘Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land’ … in Self-referral the Unified Field saw all that it had made in natural law, and it was very good.” Today we express our deep gratitude to the Unified Field Transcendent for this planet and all its glory. To show our appreciation, we take care of our earthly home, start to garden, plant a tree, or pick up garbage around our community, enjoy a walk in nature or meditate at sunrise and at sunset. We bless the Earth by caring for it and respecting its delicate balance, which allows all life to coexist in harmony and flourish in abundance. Jai Guru Dev. Paraphrasing from Daily Word, -Buck I bow my knees before the Field, from whom every family in heaven and on earth takes its name.—Ephesians 3:14-15 REJOICE IN THE UNIFIED FIELD CHRIST TRANSCENDENT WITHIN. This Easter, rejoice in Jesus Christ for demonstrating that no worldly tomb can imprison the living, loving, eternal Unified Field. No matter what the circumstances, the resurrecting power of the Unified Field within restores and uplifts us. Thank you, Jesus Christ, for showing us the way to resurrection. Paraphrasing the Daily Word, -Buck in the Dome I am the resurrection and the life.—John 11:25 Good Friday signifies the day on which Jesus was crucified and laid in the tomb. It symbolizes the process of transformation followed by resurrection. One can see it as a time for Being in the Unified Field transcendent and enter into a higher state of consciousness as we release what no longer serves our spirit. This day we prepare for our own transformation as we enter the Silence of our Meditation. In this sacred space we go beyond anything separating us from that love of the Unified Field. At meditation in the Unified Field Transcendent, we reawaken to spiritual nature and become one with the light and life of that the indwelling Christ. One with the Christ of the Unified Field and our Being. Paraphrasing the Daily Word, -Buck in the Dome Now there was a garden in the place where he was crucified, and in the garden there was a new tomb in which no one had ever been laid.—John 19:41 My soul, be on guard; Ten thousand foes arise; The hosts of sin are pressing hard To draw thee from the skies. Om watch and meditate; The battle ne'er give o'er; Re-new it boldly ev'ry day, And help the Unified Field implore. Om watch and fight and meditate; The battle ne'er give o'er; Re-new it boldly ev'ry day, And help the Unified Field implore. Ne'er think the vic-t'ry won, Nor lay thine armor down; Thy arduous work will not be done Till thou obtain thy crown. Fight on, my soul, Till death shall bring thee home; It'll take thee, At thy parting breath, To merge in the abode of the Unified Field. -Old 1781 George Heath paraphrase When in need of guidance, go directly to the source of wisdom, the Unified Field Transcendent. Close the eyes and go into the Self. Gently release the chatter in the mind, letting thoughts drift away like faint clouds sweeping across a blue sky. Settling into this silent place of peace, find the all-knowing self-referral of the Unified Field. Recognize its wisdom as an inner knowing and feeling of peace in renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the will of the Unified Field -what is good and acceptable and perfect. -Paraphrasing from Daily Word Jai Guru Dev, -Buck Welcome all ye friends of the Transcendent, Welcome to the meditation. Venture wholly on the Unified Field Come and with Its people go. Om, Yet we come in common duty, Down beneath the waves we go; Om the bliss, the heavenly beauty, The Unified Field is experienced so. Om Come,
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
I agree, Richard that what's needed is to study these different brain states in a scientific way. For one thing, to counter the flood of New Age beliefs that we now deal with in addition to the old age beliefs! A lot of the New Age beliefs, like it's better to be filter free, are actually in reaction to the old age when people were so enslaved by religious beliefs. For example, I think patients do better in surgery when they believe in a positive outcome. So in that situation, a filter is good. On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:01 PM, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/1/2014 8:04 PM, dhamiltony...@yahoo.com wrote: I am writing a journalism in this particular thread for an audience who are looking in to where it [TM] is at now. There seems to be only one person on this list, Lawson, that has been keeping up with the scientific studies done on TMer meditators or Hindu and Buddhist meditations, and it's not Curtis, Barry, or Sally. If anyone gets around to reading Sam Harris, they will know that he wants to incorporate spirituality in the domain of human reason and that he draws inspiration from the practices of Eastern religion, in particular that of meditation, as described principally by Hindu and Buddhist practitioners. It's a good thing that Rick brought up the subject of Sam Harris and it would be interesting to ask Harris about how states of mind and consciousness could be subjected to formal scientific investigation, without incorporating the myth and superstition that often accompanies meditation in the religious context. It's obvious that Curtis, Barry and Sally are not up to this task, considering their obvious biases. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
Nobody ever disputed this point with Barry, including those who believe in determinism. He could never quite understand how someone could believe in determinism and yet continue to act as if they had free will without serious cognitive dissonance. He was unable to grasp that believers in determinism fully accepted that they had no other choice and did not perceive this to be in conflict with that belief. (Basically, Barry didn't, and likely still doesn't, comprehend what the belief entails.) I suspect it is the pragmatic POV that most appeals to Barry on this topic but I could be wrong. In either case we all must act as if we have free will, we have no other choice!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Christopher Hitchens would agree with him if Barry were to say such a thing.
On Fri, 5/2/14, authfri...@yahoo.com authfri...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 1:14 PM
Right. You just regularly barge into
such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that
anyone who believes there is is worse than a
fool.
Although
I fully understand that some people get off on debating the
existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me
more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go
there.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Uh, duh. Barry has said such a thing, many times. My point was that while he professes to a hands-off approach to the issue, claiming to be bored by it, in fact he is driven to make frequent pronouncements of his perspective whenever it's discussed. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Christopher Hitchens would agree with him if Barry were to say such a thing. On Fri, 5/2/14, authfriend@... mailto:authfriend@... authfriend@... mailto:authfriend@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 1:14 PM Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Sorta like the way you're trying to barge into a pleasant conversation that doesn't concern you and trying to turn it into an argument of some kind? What a pathetic old hag you are, Judy. From: authfri...@yahoo.com authfri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
What happened here?? - Harris: Given the degree to which religion still inspires human conflict, and impedes genuine inquiry, I believe that merely being a self-described “Buddhist” is to be complicit in the world’s violence and ignorance to an unacceptable degree. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf Again Harris; As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/ http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/ As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dp http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf Harris is an enthusiastic supporter of the kill the Buddha if you meet him on the road POV. http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpufI think there are some useful distinctions to be made in these experiences. Lumping them all together under a banner of physics poetry is unlikely to result in our understanding the differences between these experiences, and I believe those distinctions could be useful. And not in some triumphalist one is better than another, but perhaps people may need different techniques depending on the results they are seeking or even some personal variables that we will never understand if we throw them all together. Plus I believe there is some brain study research that supports the idea that there really are differences between meditations types neurologically.
[FairfieldLife] Amazing discovery about Pyramid construction!
Yahoo is actually reporting that a physics professor at the University of Amsterdam has discovered that pouring water on the sand in front of a sled carrying a large stone block would make it easier to pull and this is how they built the pyramids! My god, what will they think of next? But then Cecil B. Demille had that figured out in The Ten Commandments! Remember 'ol Yoshabel greasing the stone blocks being pulled and getting her sash stuck? Help me Moses!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Marshy Rules the Earth
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : A true find. Truly mind-boggling to consider that adult human beings actually thought that this was an effective sales presentation. How brainwashed do you have to be to think like that? Trust me Bawwy, no one on the planet considered or considers this little ditty either effective or well done. Just because it exists doesn't mean it's worth a pinch of coon shit. From: Michael Jackson mjackson74@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 1:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Marshy Rules the Earth This is especially for the Turq! You are gonna f***in' love this When I saw it I just said Goddamn! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N82D5lDaaQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N82D5lDaaQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N82D5lDaaQU Maharishi Vedic Organic Agriculture https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N82D5lDaaQU View on www.youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N82D5lDaaQU Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : In that last part he was referring to me because I have stated here on FFL that I practice chi gung, which has nothing to do with religion, nor kung fu for that matter, except that some martial arts practitioners use chi gung to increase their chi for their martial arts practice. Richard is just a guy who likes to disparage anyone that is not a rabid TM fan, frothing at the mouth in bliss over every little thing Marshy and the TMO ever did and said. Richard does what Bawwy does, repeats himself endlessy. The difference is that Ricky doesn't take himself seriously, in fact, he's laughing a himself while he does this. Bawwy, on the other hand, thinks he's shocking and disturbing people with is deep insights and renegade individuality.
[FairfieldLife] Sam Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
Okay, fine, so now you and Sam Harris are atheistic transcendentalists in experience without poetry. And by your own experience, in shorthand, a “substitutor meditator” in spiritual practice, Evidently like Sam Harris. Welcome back, -Buck Curtisdeltablues writes: Buck writes: Yes, evidently Harris is a transcending meditator even as a Buddhist! That is wonderful. -Buck in the Dome Did you see that even CurtisDeltaBlues is a transcending meditator now that way too? It's all the same Unified Field once you get going. C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that came from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify himself as a Buddhist. Harris: Given the degree to which religion still inspires human conflict, and impedes genuine inquiry, I believe that merely being a self-described “Buddhist” is to be complicit in the world’s violence and ignorance to an unacceptable degree. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf Again Harris; As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/ http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/ As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dp http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf Harris is an enthusiastic supporter of the kill the Buddha if you meet him on the road POV. http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpufI think there are some useful distinctions to be made in these experiences. Lumping them all together under a banner of physics poetry is unlikely to result in our understanding the differences between these experiences, and I believe those distinctions could be useful. And not in some triumphalist one is better than another, but perhaps people may need different techniques depending on the results they are seeking or even some personal variables that we will never understand if we throw them all together. Plus I believe there is some brain study research that supports the idea that there really are differences between meditations types neurologically. From my limited experience it already seems that there are major differences between the goals of different techniques as well as completely different shaping of the interpretation of the experience and its meaning depending on the belief support system. This may have an as yet unknown effect on the experiences themselves. I am advocating epistemological humbleness as we try to understand ourselves through these different practices without coming to the lab with a set theory about what any of this means. That is a huge difference between our approaches to meditation practices. I am as skeptical of the Buddhist interpretation of meaning as I am the Hindus. I think we can do better with a fresh look outside these presumptions. B: I was reading a discourse recently by Guru Dev and he was urging people to just do it, meditate and it [the transcendence] will become more familiar. It is very beautiful in nature that way. -Buck C: He might have been more experimental in his personal life but in his role as the Hindu Pope he represents the exact opposite of the perspective I am seeking on this topic.But perhaps you can refer to me as a 'substituter rather than a quitter from now on. I appreciate your open mindedness I really do. sharelong60 writes: Richard, sense of self vanishing and having greater well being sounds like what happens during TM! On Thursday, May 1, 2014 7:10 PM, Richard J. Williams punditster@... wrote: On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:02 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris I think it would be a fantastic discussion and I would love to help you prep for an interview. He is an especially good choice because he is an experienced Buddhist meditator and is interested in connecting his own field, neuro science with the experiences we have in meditation. But in a more philosophical than TM brain studies way. Harris is definitely the only one of the outspoken public atheists I can stand to read. The rest tend to strike me as being pretty much as strident as their fundamentalist opposites. The only reason I can find to like them is that they're not afraid to stand up to a society in which the word atheist is treated as a synonym for ignorant spawn of Satan and spoken (or written) in a tone of voice (or writing) similar to how Southern folks say the word Nigger! He is coming out with a course this Fall to coincide with his new book about an alternative perspective to subjective experiences from traditional spirituality. That sounds interesting. One of my problems with most forms of traditional spirituality, at least of the kinds that value meditation, is that they *overvalue* subjective experience, as if it does or even could trump other forms of thinking and perceiving the world. I don't buy that. And I've had me some Jim-Dandy subjective experiences along the way, more than some here. To quote Blade Runner, I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. But NONE of them in my honest opinion were any higher than any other, better than any other, or (especially) more valid than any other. They were what they were -- subjective experiences. NONE of them IMO mean anything in particular -- about the nature of the experience, about the nature of the universe, or about one's place in that universe -- and they will never constitute proof of anything. I look forward to what he has to say about walking that razor's edge between having had cool subjective experiences and overvaluing them, placing them on a pedestal of specialness. My pedestal would be flat, with no experience elevated over another. He thinks both materialist scientists and spiritual people are jumping to conclusions. He might be especially interested in this dialogue with you at this time because of this direction he is taking. It is a direction he is taking some shit from hard core atheists for which makes him all the better as a bridge for a rich discussion with you. So although he probably does believe that consciousness is an emergent property of brain functions, he is more open to discussing the philosophical implications of our sense of self from meditation experience. He is more aware of things we don't know about human consciousness than most people, atheist or not, and would not be afraid wherever the discussion leads. I am reading his book on free will right now. Very thought provoking. Excellent idea Rick. If anyone can bridge these disparate perspective in a non judgmental way so the discussion can really breath, it is YOU! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote : I have this idea kicking around in my head to try to interview Sam Harris, or someone like him. An intelligent atheist, as I understand him. I’d want to read all his books first, and then hash out the likely points of discussion with you beforehand. We could do it on FFL. My perspective is very SCI-like – that intelligence is omnipresent, all-pervading, and obvious if one looks closely enough. I’m interviewing a guy named Bernardo Kastrup in a couple of months who has written a book called “Why Materialism is Baloney”, but it would be fun to interview an intelligent materialist, if that’s what Harris is, and see if we could find any common ground. What do you think?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Judy, I doubt that Curtis thinks of you as a previous poster! Want to guess again? On Friday, May 2, 2014 8:20 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com authfri...@yahoo.com wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : You know, I had never thought of it that way, but the Big M really DID shape our beliefs not only about the world around us and about ourselves but about TM itself which was a core aspect of his selling TM and its adjunct programs to everyone. Thank you for the insight Curtis. Anyone selling anything that we buy has done this MJ. You yourself have said time over time what a shyster, huckster and shill MMY was.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/1/2014 11:04 PM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote: Nobody reads my tape loops anyway - so thanks for reading my tape loop. Now, about that Rama levitation tape loop... It's true. Loop de loop. Loopy. Sloppy Sloopy. Nobody wants to talk about human levitation, the centerpiece of the TMO and the Rama cult - the programs Curtis and Barry tried to sell for twenty years. NOW they want us to read their new loops? Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. C: Sorry to bust your righteousness buzz but I was not. You are a current poster. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 4:46 AM, Michael Jackson wrote: In that last part he was referring to me because I have stated here on FFL that I practice chi gung, which has nothing to do with religion, nor kung fu for that matter, except that some martial arts practitioners use chi gung to increase their chi for their martial arts practice. Everyone knows that chi is the life force mentioned by MMY - pure consciousness. You are either being really stupid or trying to trick us with your false claims about meditation practice. According to Sam Harris, the whole purpose of meditation is the well-being of the individual. Richard is just a guy who likes to disparage anyone that is not a rabid TM fan, frothing at the mouth in bliss over every little thing Marshy and the TMO ever did and said. It's just that you are being hypocritical about basic TM and claiming to practice meditation and calling it chi gung' instead of TM. What I am saying is that meditation is meditation and that you are just being prejudiced against Hindus because you got fired from a waiter job in Iowa twenty years ago. Chi Gung is Kung Fu, you idiot. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 5:12 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: I still continue to practice a sitting meditation most days -- not TM, not mantra-based, but eyes-closed, dive-for-deep-samadhi meditation. I do it because I enjoy it, and after 20 minutes or so I feel refreshed and experience a clarity that I would possibly miss if I stopped. It's sorta like I've gone back to the first days of TM experience -- 20/20 meditation, done primarily because of its benefits in activity, not done for itself. Although, to be honest, I often don't get in two sitting meds per day. Another 180 - after over fifteen years of telling us that meditation is a fruitless effort with zero benefits. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:02 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I am reading his book on free will right now. Very thought provoking. Someone needs to tell Barry that Harris says the idea of free will is incoherent. Humans are not free and no sense can be given to the concept that they might be. Go figure. C: I believe that Barry and Sam would agree on the reality of our felt sense of free will. The question has to do with whether or not the data of all of our unconscious process support that POV as a realistic possibility. And it doesn't matter if the unconscious influences are karma from past lives or just unconscious neural process that can be measured before we are consciously aware of them, they still undermine our felt sense upon reflection. That's sorta what I was trying to say about my tendency to prefer pragmatism these days. IT DOESN'T MATTER whether free will exists or not; to be sane in this insane world, you've pretty much gotta act as if it does. Every time you make a decision you're pretending free will exists, even if you claim to believe that it doesn't. Harris' book has some other POVs that he does not ascribe to where the person expands their sense of what we are to include those unconscious influences so that they can all go under the umbrella of me making a decision. I am not sure where I fall yet, I may have to read some others to see if their POV appeals to me more than Harris'. I suspect it is the pragmatic POV that most appeals to Barry on this topic but I could be wrong. In either case we all must act as if we have free will, we have no other choice! Exactly. That is what makes discussions or arguments about *whether* we have free will or not so BORING to me. They're completely unproductive -- a point that can never be proven one way or another. It's as silly as trying to debate the existence of God. Total waste of time. This may not sit well with you, Curtis, given that your degree was in philosophy, but one of the things I've never quite understood is the way that societies tend to place philosophers on pedestals, as if what they do makes them more worthy of being on one. Most of them IMO spend their time thinking and arguing about points like this that can never be resolved. So Im supposed to look up to someone who spends their time in such futile pursuits? :-) :-) :-) Yeah, I know...I'm overstating things for emphasis. I *get* that thinking about the theoretical is some people's idea of FUN, and that arguing one's beliefs about these theoreticals is also some people's idea of FUN. And if it is, cool. Me, I'm just not drawn that way any more.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Just making an observation, Barry. Since it's factually accurate, there's no basis to argue about it. In any case, some of the discussions of belief in God have been entirely pleasant until you stuck your nose in and insulted the participants. So in that sense, if I'm a pathetic old hag, so are you. Sorta like the way you're trying to barge into a pleasant conversation that doesn't concern you and trying to turn it into an argument of some kind? What a pathetic old hag you are, Judy. From: authfriend@... authfriend@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/2/2014 6:24 AM, Share Long wrote: And Richard, how can we possibly separate belief and practice completely? I don't think we can simply because we don't live our lives with our heads cut off from our bodies! We cannot possibly separate our beliefs completely, but what we can do is challenge anyone who tries to control our mind and body through coercion with false dichotomies. Everyone meditates and everyone is transcending, even without a technique. So, after fifteen years of dialog disparaging meditators on this and one other discussion group, it now comes out that Curtis and Barry are the True Believers - they meditate. So, what exactly was their argument against meditating? It's was all about Judy. /*MMY has NOTHING to do with their transcending.*/ It's that simple. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : But Curtis, you already have some big filters: C: Right that is why I said this: Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal S:one, and imo the most significant one, that it's preferable to come to a new experience as filter free as possible. C: I am not assuming that. After this experiment I may conclude that this was the worst way to approach learning mindfulness meditation and use myself as a cautionary tale of how NOT to learn it. But I choose to approach it this way while I can. S: Shouldn't we challenge this belief too? C: It depends on what exactly you are challenging. That I am approaching this process this way is just a fact concerning my preference for my personal practice. I am not making any broad claims that everyone should always do it the way I am approaching this. But this is an opportunity to shift my approach to learning something and since I only have this short window before I inevitably book up on the subject, I am taking it. S: And two, don't you already have some significant filters about mindfulness simply from reading about it here and elsewhere? Not to mention, from all your experiences and beliefs around TM? C: Right. I am not claiming otherwise. TM is my dominant perspective on meditation practice and colors everything I am doing. I am open to Maharishi's perspective that in fact I am so habituated from his practice that I am not actually practicing a mindfulness practice at all. But my experience leads me to believe that I am having a different subjective experience so I am working with what I have. And I am not belief adverse on principle. I plan to build all sorts of beliefs using everything I can to support them for what I consider good reasons if I decide to take this on as an intellectual as well as an experiential process. S:And Richard, how can we possibly separate belief and practice completely? I don't think we can simply because we don't live our lives with our heads cut off from our bodies! C: I don't believe anyone is claiming this Share. But there is a huge difference in approach from how I learned TM and studied it and how I am approaching this for now. For now I am interested in the procedural aspects of the practice. Obviously I have all sorts of acquired beliefs conscious and unconscious that shape my practice or that even compelled me to take up the practice at all. It is just a matter of emphasis and degree. Compared to other things I am interested in, I have read very little and that suits me for now. I was never very interested in other forms of meditation so I know very little about this practice. That will change so I am choosing to roll this way for now. I am more interested in making subjective distinctions concerning this practice and TM rather than more theoretical ones. Knowing. of course that all my presuppositions will shape everything I conclude. That is a human limitation as well as an opportunity.There is a big difference between believing that I am experiencing my attention on the present moment and believing that I have reached the first bardo of whatever. On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:39 PM, curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I believe this is what Sam Harris is advocating, separating the practices from the beliefs. I do not believe all meditations lead to the same mental states. TM has never been taught this way through the organization so I guess we don't know what innocent TM practice would be like.Even after dropping the beliefs my TM practice was influenced by what I had previously believed about it. Shaping our beliefs about the practice was a huge priority for Maharishi. I am hoping to enjoy mindfulness sitting with less concept clutter. Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal, but I am not presently reading a bunch of stuff about it yet. Someday I'm sure I will, but I would like some more less filtered experience first. This is pretty much the reverse of how I approached TM. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 9:43 PM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote: It's all the same Unified Field once you get going. C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that came from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify himself as a Buddhist. The concepts and practices of Buddhism, according to Stephen Batchelor, are not something to believe in but something to do. It is a practice that we can all engage in, regardless of our background or beliefs, as we live every day on the path to spiritual enlightenment. Basic TM is Buddhist yoga - it may be that MMY should have left it at that and retired back in 1955 instead of muddying the waters, so to speak. Basic TM should be able to stand on its own. That's what I think. Recommended: 'Buddhism Without Beliefs: A
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Okey-doke, glad to hear it. I don't recall anyone trying to stick you with Barry's perspective on Lenz's alleged levitation exploits, though, previous poster or otherwise (it wasn't entirely clear what previous poster meant--it could have referred to a poster not involved in the current discussion). ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. C: Sorry to bust your righteousness buzz but I was not. You are a current poster. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Okey-doke, glad to hear it. I don't recall anyone trying to stick you with Barry's perspective on Lenz's alleged levitation exploits, C: I didn't claim this, I just said Barry's perspective. J: though, previous poster or otherwise (it wasn't entirely clear what previous poster meant--it could have referred to a poster not involved in the current discussion). C: Thanks for the edit. It was purposely vague because I didn't want to derail the discussion off the topic that interests me here, as so often happens on FFL. I believe Richard has some more valuable input than discussing other people who used to post here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. C: Sorry to bust your righteousness buzz but I was not. You are a current poster. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 6:47 AM, Share Long wrote: Richard, I don't think *thinking things over in the conscious mind* really describes TM! Though it is one possible definition of meditation. According to MMY, TM is based on thinking - anyone who can think can meditate. So, everyone is already meditating to a certain degree. According to Charles Lutes, meditation means to think, and transcend means to go beyond thinking. The idea is to experience subtler states of awareness, free from distracting thoughts. Most people remain on the gross surface level of thinking - they don't dive very deep within very much at all. TM and other techniques provide a more direct angle for the diving. Everyday conscious thinking is more like a belly flop into a pool, which gets them into the water, but at the same time causes waves all around - compared to using a technique to dive deep into the water without disturbing everyone around them. Both get you into the water, but sometimes a belly flop can be quite stressful and cause you to think you're a klutz - when that happens it can be disconcerting. meditation –noun 1 to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2 to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. Source: Cambridge University Dictionary: http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
Last night I read the first chapter of the End of Faith and LOVED it. Didn’t disagree with anything I’ve read so far. I’m taking notes and will post them for discussion later on. From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, May 1, 2014 3:03 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris I think it would be a fantastic discussion and I would love to help you prep for an interview. He is an especially good choice because he is an experienced Buddhist meditator and is interested in connecting his own field, neuro science with the experiences we have in meditation. But in a more philosophical than TM brain studies way. He is coming out with a course this Fall to coincide with his new book about an alternative perspective to subjective experiences from traditional spirituality. He thinks both materialist scientists and spiritual people are jumping to conclusions. He might be especially interested in this dialogue with you at this time because of this direction he is taking. It is a direction he is taking some shit from hard core atheists for which makes him all the better as a bridge for a rich discussion with you. So although he probably does believe that consciousness is an emergent property of brain functions, he is more open to discussing the philosophical implications of our sense of self from meditation experience. He is more aware of things we don't know about human consciousness than most people, atheist or not, and would not be afraid wherever the discussion leads. I am reading his book on free will right now. Very thought provoking. Excellent idea Rick. If anyone can bridge these disparate perspective in a non judgmental way so the discussion can really breath, it is YOU! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com , rick@... mailto:rick@... wrote : I have this idea kicking around in my head to try to interview Sam Harris, or someone like him. An intelligent atheist, as I understand him. I’d want to read all his books first, and then hash out the likely points of discussion with you beforehand. We could do it on FFL. My perspective is very SCI-like – that intelligence is omnipresent, all-pervading, and obvious if one looks closely enough. I’m interviewing a guy named Bernardo Kastrup in a couple of months who has written a book called “Why Materialism is Baloney”, but it would be fun to interview an intelligent materialist, if that’s what Harris is, and see if we could find any common ground. What do you think?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Richard, belly flop is a really good analogy imo. And I also agree with you that everyone transcends even without a technique. I know you've said it before, but this time it hit me just right. Thanks. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:00 AM, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/2/2014 6:47 AM, Share Long wrote: Richard, I don't think *thinking things over in the conscious mind* really describes TM! Though it is one possible definition of meditation. According to MMY, TM is based on thinking - anyone who can think can meditate. So, everyone is already meditating to a certain degree. According to Charles Lutes, meditation means to think, and transcend means to go beyond thinking. The idea is to experience subtler states of awareness, free from distracting thoughts. Most people remain on the gross surface level of thinking - they don't dive very deep within very much at all. TM and other techniques provide a more direct angle for the diving. Everyday conscious thinking is more like a belly flop into a pool, which gets them into the water, but at the same time causes waves all around - compared to using a technique to dive deep into the water without disturbing everyone around them. Both get you into the water, but sometimes a belly flop can be quite stressful and cause you to think you're a klutz - when that happens it can be disconcerting. meditation –noun 1 to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2 to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. Source: Cambridge University Dictionary: http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I have
been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I
feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss
starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss
gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis?
On Fri, 5/2/14, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 2:36 PM
On
5/2/2014 5:12 AM, TurquoiseBee
wrote:
I
still continue to practice a sitting
meditation most days
-- not TM, not mantra-based, but eyes-closed,
dive-for-deep-samadhi meditation. I do it
because I enjoy
it, and after 20 minutes or so I feel
refreshed and
experience a clarity that I would possibly
miss if I
stopped. It's sorta like I've gone
back to the first days
of TM experience -- 20/20 meditation, done
primarily
because of its benefits in activity, not done
for
itself. Although, to be honest, I often
don't get in two
sitting meds per day.
Another 180 - after over fifteen years of telling us
that meditation
is a fruitless effort with zero benefits. Go figure.
This email is free from viruses and malware
because avast! Antivirus protection
is active.
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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com , no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Certainly. Would be as interesting as your interviews over at batgap, putting everyone at sleep. Really Nabby? Have you spoken with “everyone”? Because batgap continues to grow by leaps and bounds. About 10,000/day engage with it in one way on another. http://y.analytics.yahoo.com/fpc.pl?ywarid=515FB27823A7407Ea=10001310322279js=noresp=imgcf10=CP
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. NOT if they don't exist, such as the two examples you used earlier. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
Curtis, first of all, and maybe I've said it before, but it is simply a pleasure just to read your writing. For one thing, I can follow it pretty easily! I think my favorite line was when you said, ...all my presuppositions will shape everything I conclude. That is a human limitation as well as an opportunity. What it evoked in me was the experience of living on the edge of discovery, so thank you... On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:46 AM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : But Curtis, you already have some big filters: C: Right that is why I said this: Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal S:one, and imo the most significant one, that it's preferable to come to a new experience as filter free as possible. C: I am not assuming that. After this experiment I may conclude that this was the worst way to approach learning mindfulness meditation and use myself as a cautionary tale of how NOT to learn it. But I choose to approach it this way while I can. S: Shouldn't we challenge this belief too? C: It depends on what exactly you are challenging. That I am approaching this process this way is just a fact concerning my preference for my personal practice. I am not making any broad claims that everyone should always do it the way I am approaching this. But this is an opportunity to shift my approach to learning something and since I only have this short window before I inevitably book up on the subject, I am taking it. S: And two, don't you already have some significant filters about mindfulness simply from reading about it here and elsewhere? Not to mention, from all your experiences and beliefs around TM? C: Right. I am not claiming otherwise. TM is my dominant perspective on meditation practice and colors everything I am doing. I am open to Maharishi's perspective that in fact I am so habituated from his practice that I am not actually practicing a mindfulness practice at all. But my experience leads me to believe that I am having a different subjective experience so I am working with what I have. And I am not belief adverse on principle. I plan to build all sorts of beliefs using everything I can to support them for what I consider good reasons if I decide to take this on as an intellectual as well as an experiential process. S:And Richard, how can we possibly separate belief and practice completely? I don't think we can simply because we don't live our lives with our heads cut off from our bodies! C: I don't believe anyone is claiming this Share. But there is a huge difference in approach from how I learned TM and studied it and how I am approaching this for now. For now I am interested in the procedural aspects of the practice. Obviously I have all sorts of acquired beliefs conscious and unconscious that shape my practice or that even compelled me to take up the practice at all. It is just a matter of emphasis and degree. Compared to other things I am interested in, I have read very little and that suits me for now. I was never very interested in other forms of meditation so I know very little about this practice. That will change so I am choosing to roll this way for now. I am more interested in making subjective distinctions concerning this practice and TM rather than more theoretical ones. Knowing. of course that all my presuppositions will shape everything I conclude. That is a human limitation as well as an opportunity.There is a big difference between believing that I am experiencing my attention on the present moment and believing that I have reached the first bardo of whatever. On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:39 PM, curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I believe this is what Sam Harris is advocating, separating the practices from the beliefs. I do not believe all meditations lead to the same mental states. TM has never been taught this way through the organization so I guess we don't know what innocent TM practice would be like.Even after dropping the beliefs my TM practice was influenced by what I had previously believed about it. Shaping our beliefs about the practice was a huge priority for Maharishi. I am hoping to enjoy mindfulness sitting with less concept clutter. Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal, but I am not presently reading a bunch of stuff about it yet. Someday I'm sure I will, but I would like some more less filtered experience first. This is pretty much the reverse of how I approached TM. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 9:43 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: It's all the same Unified Field once you get going. C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that came from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify himself as a Buddhist. The concepts and practices of Buddhism, according to Stephen
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :
I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation,
C: It was Barry who described his practice this way. I don't accept the
conceptual model of samadhi to describe my meditation experiences anymore. My
experience with mindfulness meditation is that it is almost in the opposite
direction to diving deep. It is a more full awareness of the what I am
experiencing right now without any evaluation of 'deep or not.
I am not sure that bliss is a term that fits my perspective. Both forms of
meditation are subjectively enjoyable but in different ways. It is the
differences that I am hoping to discover as i continue to practice.
I am the last person to go to for meditation advice my brother! I am a one
step up from shitting in my own diaper baby with meditation. (But as a factor
of comfort, that upgrade makes all the difference in the world!0
I have been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the
bliss I feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The
bliss starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do?
Bliss gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis?
On Fri, 5/2/14, Richard J. Williams punditster@... mailto:punditster@...
wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 2:36 PM
On
5/2/2014 5:12 AM, TurquoiseBee
wrote:
I
still continue to practice a sitting
meditation most days
-- not TM, not mantra-based, but eyes-closed,
dive-for-deep-samadhi meditation. I do it
because I enjoy
it, and after 20 minutes or so I feel
refreshed and
experience a clarity that I would possibly
miss if I
stopped. It's sorta like I've gone
back to the first days
of TM experience -- 20/20 meditation, done
primarily
because of its benefits in activity, not done
for
itself. Although, to be honest, I often
don't get in two
sitting meds per day.
Another 180 - after over fifteen years of telling us
that meditation
is a fruitless effort with zero benefits. Go figure.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Sorta like the way you're trying to barge into a pleasant conversation that doesn't concern you and trying to turn it into an argument of some kind? What a pathetic old hag you are, Judy. And what a phenomenal lack of imagination you have, Bawee. From: authfriend@... authfriend@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
From: Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis? I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as relying on subjective experience as one's standard for what constitutes truth or reality or providing value. In many spiritual traditions bliss is considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend bliss and get to something more interesting.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Curtis, first of all, and maybe I've said it before, but it is simply a pleasure just to read your writing. For one thing, I can follow it pretty easily! C: Thanks Share, I am enjoying writing here again. Being easy to follow is my highest goal in expression, so double thanks for that. S: I think my favorite line was when you said, ...all my presuppositions will shape everything I conclude. That is a human limitation as well as an opportunity. What it evoked in me was the experience of living on the edge of discovery, so thank you... C: Lifelong learning for everyone! On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:46 AM, curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... wrote: --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : But Curtis, you already have some big filters: C: Right that is why I said this: Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal S:one, and imo the most significant one, that it's preferable to come to a new experience as filter free as possible. C: I am not assuming that. After this experiment I may conclude that this was the worst way to approach learning mindfulness meditation and use myself as a cautionary tale of how NOT to learn it. But I choose to approach it this way while I can. S: Shouldn't we challenge this belief too? C: It depends on what exactly you are challenging. That I am approaching this process this way is just a fact concerning my preference for my personal practice. I am not making any broad claims that everyone should always do it the way I am approaching this. But this is an opportunity to shift my approach to learning something and since I only have this short window before I inevitably book up on the subject, I am taking it. S: And two, don't you already have some significant filters about mindfulness simply from reading about it here and elsewhere? Not to mention, from all your experiences and beliefs around TM? C: Right. I am not claiming otherwise. TM is my dominant perspective on meditation practice and colors everything I am doing. I am open to Maharishi's perspective that in fact I am so habituated from his practice that I am not actually practicing a mindfulness practice at all. But my experience leads me to believe that I am having a different subjective experience so I am working with what I have. And I am not belief adverse on principle. I plan to build all sorts of beliefs using everything I can to support them for what I consider good reasons if I decide to take this on as an intellectual as well as an experiential process. S:And Richard, how can we possibly separate belief and practice completely? I don't think we can simply because we don't live our lives with our heads cut off from our bodies! C: I don't believe anyone is claiming this Share. But there is a huge difference in approach from how I learned TM and studied it and how I am approaching this for now. For now I am interested in the procedural aspects of the practice. Obviously I have all sorts of acquired beliefs conscious and unconscious that shape my practice or that even compelled me to take up the practice at all. It is just a matter of emphasis and degree. Compared to other things I am interested in, I have read very little and that suits me for now. I was never very interested in other forms of meditation so I know very little about this practice. That will change so I am choosing to roll this way for now. I am more interested in making subjective distinctions concerning this practice and TM rather than more theoretical ones. Knowing. of course that all my presuppositions will shape everything I conclude. That is a human limitation as well as an opportunity.There is a big difference between believing that I am experiencing my attention on the present moment and believing that I have reached the first bardo of whatever. On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:39 PM, curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I believe this is what Sam Harris is advocating, separating the practices from the beliefs. I do not believe all meditations lead to the same mental states. TM has never been taught this way through the organization so I guess we don't know what innocent TM practice would be like.Even after dropping the beliefs my TM practice was influenced by what I had previously believed about it. Shaping our beliefs about the practice was a huge priority for Maharishi. I am hoping to enjoy mindfulness sitting with less concept clutter. Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal, but I am not presently reading a bunch of stuff about it yet. Someday I'm sure I will, but I would like some more less filtered experience first. This is pretty much the reverse of how I approached TM. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 9:43 PM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sarah Palin Talks Tough to NRA
Capitalism needs to be tweaked. Richard Wolf says that 'centralized state socialism' is as bad as 'centralised state capitalism'. IOW, Crony socialism is as bad as crony capitalism. Crony socialism existed in india, Soviet union, China and large swaths on the globe in the 1950's and 60's. In the early 1970's the Soviet economy was already in the red and it became clear that the centralised state socialism is not working. It was then most countries changed course. If you are talking about socialism of the cooperative entities like mondrovia corp, or Amul cooperative in india, that's a different issue. They exist side by side with corporates and do business with them. You are better off socializing the political system. You may have to give millions the political parties, but it's small price to pay to prevent vested interests from corrupting the system. As the world moves into the third wave, new forms of ideologies might emerge. --- Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote : The bottom line is that capitalism is to chaotic to exist in a world population of 7 billion plus. The party is over. The capitalist's party. Corporations now have personhood which means we can arrest them and throw them in prison. So let's arrest Goldman-Sachs to start. The US economy no longer is based on education, hard work, free market prices and the accountability that real free markets impose. Instead, the US economy is based on manipulation of prices, speculative control of commodities, support of the dollar by Washington’s puppet states, manipulated and falsified official statistics, propaganda from the financial media, and inertia by countries, such as Russia and China, who are directly harmed, both economically and politically, by the dollar payments system. http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/04/30/us-economy-house-cards-paul-craig-roberts/ http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/04/30/us-economy-house-cards-paul-craig-roberts/ On 05/01/2014 05:25 AM, jedi_spock@... mailto:jedi_spock@... wrote: It's important to draw a line of distinction between creation of wealth and accumulation of wealth. If the income is not spent, but put in banks or government bonds, no tax should be levied on it. Banks can lend that money to government who can use the money for infrastructure development. Only if the income is spent on something, taxes should be levied on it. It should be progressive consumption tax and not progressive income tax. You must punish 'spending of wealth'. You must reward 'creation of wealth'. You must also give incentives for people to put their money in banks, IOW save money. --- Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... wrote : The original intent of the founding fathers was a mix of capitalism and socialism. There are just some things that need to be in the commons and the Internet is now a new one that belongs there. It is the role of government to maintain the commons and leaving it open for everyone. It is the role of the people to keep government reigned in and out of the clutches of special interests. We also don't need landed gentry which the founding fathers were against. Look at these pompous ass capitalists like Donald Sterling, Tom Perkins and the Koch brothers. Use progressive taxes to discourage absurd accumulation of wealth. When Tito ran Yugoslavia the citizens got a month vacation and free health care. It was a prosperous society and a mix of socialism and free enterprise. As soon as Tito died the globalists stepped in led by the US to destroy the country. When I visited India the most prosperous state was Kerala which has a mix of socialism and free enterprise. On 04/30/2014 04:41 AM, jedi_spock@... mailto:jedi_spock@... wrote: Agreed that greed kills. Sustainable development can be done if taxes are based on 'consumption of resources' and not income. Salaries and wages paid to employees should not be treated as consumption, but as general expenses (created wealth). The salaries and wage differentials across hierarchy in corporations can be flattened and narrowed down by strict regulations. What's stopping them from doing that? It's not enough, if you just give state-funding to political parties. The system should be transparent. Any system that is opaque becomes a ground for corruption. Darkness covers a multitude of sins. Shine the light and the system will cleanse itself. --- Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... wrote : You're confusing capitalism with free enterprise. Capitalism itself generates entropy and chaos. Just look at what it has done to this country now. You really want to live in a country of poor people? Some correction needs to be done to reign in the oligarchs and plutocrats. Greed kills. On 04/29/2014 06:02 AM, jedi_spock@... mailto:jedi_spock@... wrote:
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/2/2014 6:24 AM, Share Long wrote: And Richard, how can we possibly separate belief and practice completely? I don't think we can simply because we don't live our lives with our heads cut off from our bodies! We cannot possibly separate our beliefs completely, but what we can do is challenge anyone who tries to control our mind and body through coercion with false dichotomies. Everyone meditates and everyone is transcending, even without a technique. So, after fifteen years of dialog disparaging meditators on this and one other discussion group, it now comes out that Curtis and Barry are the True Believers - they meditate. So, what exactly was their argument against meditating? C: Even in my most enthusiastic presentations on cults when I first left TM I allowed that the practice itself my be beneficial for certain people. I do not believe that TM or any one meditation practice is good for ALL people. My disagreements with Maharishi revolve around his conclusions about what the experiences we have in meditation mean. As far as the practice itself I don't accept the traditional belief structure as authoritative. I am advocating admitting that we don't know all about TM or other forms of meditation but that the field holds some interest for me after having taken an 18 year break from being interested in any meditation practice at all. R: It's was all about Judy. C: Speak for yourself! R: MMY has NOTHING to do with their transcending. It's that simple. C: Not that simple since his framework for understanding my subjective meditation experiences was one that I embraced and then rejected. It continues to shape my perspective today and always will. But your assumptiveness in using the term transcending reveals a lot about your own beliefs around the practice. I would not use that term to describe how I think of my experiences in TM or with mindfulness meditation. the word is too loaded with assumptions to be useful in describing my own experience with them now. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Judy, I doubt that Curtis thinks of you as a previous poster! Want to guess again? I think it was more that Robin was hoping Curtis might call Barry on some of his abusive bullshit when it had something to do with Robin. But this was before my time here so I am conjecturing based on having read some old posts just previous to my showing up here. On Friday, May 2, 2014 8:20 AM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. I think Share might have pushed Bawee's belly button. From: Share Long sharelong60@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... wrote: From: curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com http://www.avast.com/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
turq, as I've alluded to before with all my talk of MRI machines, I'd like to see science define full development wrt human consciousness. Til then I tend to go by my gut feeling. Which I know can be wrong. But that's part of being human. And life will set me straight one way or the other. There, that wasn't such a long wait, was it? On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:20 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. NOT if they don't exist, such as the two examples you used earlier. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 --- This email is free from viruses
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
FWIW, Maharishi said at one point, Bliss isn't blissful. By which he meant, I assume, that to experience blissfulness required some degree of waking-state consciousness. IOW, you wouldn't experience blissfullness in transcendental-consciousness-by-itself--but you would be in a state of bliss by definition (the ananda part of sat-chit-ananda). I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, C: It was Barry who described his practice this way. I don't accept the conceptual model of samadhi to describe my meditation experiences anymore. My experience with mindfulness meditation is that it is almost in the opposite direction to diving deep. It is a more full awareness of the what I am experiencing right now without any evaluation of 'deep or not. I am not sure that bliss is a term that fits my perspective. Both forms of meditation are subjectively enjoyable but in different ways. It is the differences that I am hoping to discover as i continue to practice. I am the last person to go to for meditation advice my brother! I am a one step up from shitting in my own diaper baby with meditation. (But as a factor of comfort, that upgrade makes all the difference in the world!0 I have been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
And right on cue, the two Robin cultists try to bring him up to derail yet another pleasant discussion. From: awoelfleba...@yahoo.com awoelfleba...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Judy, I doubt that Curtis thinks of you as a previous poster! Want to guess again? I think it was more that Robin was hoping Curtis might call Barry on some of his abusive bullshit when it had something to do with Robin. But this was before my time here so I am conjecturing based on having read some old posts just previous to my showing up here. On Friday, May 2, 2014 8:20 AM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: Michael Jackson mjackson74@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis? I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as relying on subjective experience as one's standard for what constitutes truth or reality or providing value. In many spiritual traditions bliss is considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend bliss and get to something more interesting. I guess they don't call them 'BLISS NINNIES' for nothing.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
Talk of Sam Harris brings me out of the FFL shadows. Harris is, in my view, one of the clearest and boldest thinkers in the world today. One may disagree with any number of his positions (that radical Islam presents a dire threat to the world, that free will is an illusion, that science can guide our moral decisions) but the intelligence and power with which he expresses himself is stunning. The surprising twist that this committed atheist and materialist is fascinated by the value that meditation can provide makes him all the more interesting. Go for it, Rick!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, as I've alluded to before with all my talk of MRI machines, I'd like to see science define full development wrt human consciousness. Til then I tend to go by my gut feeling. Which I know can be wrong. But that's part of being human. And life will set me straight one way or the other. There, that wasn't such a long wait, was it? You *do* realize that you provided no definition, right? We're still waiting for one. As, it would seem, are you. I'm past that. I don't believe that there is a top or highest level of human development. I don't even really believe that there are levels. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:20 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. NOT if they don't exist, such as the two examples you used earlier. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another Experience. Not higher, not lower, and possibly not even happening at all. :-) Just sitting and noticing. Another good phrase. Thanks for digging that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:26 PM,
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 7:13 AM, Share Long wrote: I agree, Richard that what's needed is to study these different brain states in a scientific way. For one thing, to counter the flood of New Age beliefs that we now deal with in addition to the old age beliefs! That's what I'm saying! A lot of the New Age beliefs, like it's better to be filter free, are actually in reaction to the old age when people were so enslaved by religious beliefs. For example, I think patients do better in surgery when they believe in a positive outcome. So in that situation, a filter is good. That's what drives me to distraction when the informants here try to discredit the science, and then turn around a 180 and try to convince me that their beliefs are more rational than my beliefs. I don't believe in levitation or reincarnation, or that anyone could fill a whole room with golden light, or that Chi Gung isn't Kung Fu. It's just a word game - an endless circular loop. Reductio ad absurdum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum So, I simply think that meditation is what intelligent people do. I do believe in karma: what life does to you and what you do back. I'm open to the idea that thoughts can cause change at will, but it has not been proven by science. Like Randi, I've never seen anyone levitate for real and so making such a claim is counter-productive and absurd. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : And right on cue, the two Robin cultists try to bring him up to derail yet another pleasant discussion. I have yet to experience anything about you, Bawee, that is pleasant. Don't kid yourself. From: awoelflebater@... awoelflebater@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Judy, I doubt that Curtis thinks of you as a previous poster! Want to guess again? I think it was more that Robin was hoping Curtis might call Barry on some of his abusive bullshit when it had something to do with Robin. But this was before my time here so I am conjecturing based on having read some old posts just previous to my showing up here. On Friday, May 2, 2014 8:20 AM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Curtis didn't mean me, as it turns out. (I had thought by previous poster he meant someone not involved in the current discussion.) However, I'd been nagging Curtis about not calling Barry on his abusive behavior (as opposed to his perspective) long before Robin ever showed up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Judy, I doubt that Curtis thinks of you as a previous poster! Want to guess again? I think it was more that Robin was hoping Curtis might call Barry on some of his abusive bullshit when it had something to do with Robin. But this was before my time here so I am conjecturing based on having read some old posts just previous to my showing up here. On Friday, May 2, 2014 8:20 AM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote : Last night I read the first chapter of the End of Faith and LOVED it. Didn’t disagree with anything I’ve read so far. I’m taking notes and will post them for discussion later on. C: I believe you guys are closer in your conclusions than would seem likely at first. You seem to have found an open intellectual space concerning topics like the assumptions in spirituality while still maintaining your own subjective experience as a center. (That may be too convoluted but it is my first attempt at articulating this.) You and Sam have found yourselves on different sides of certain lines I suspect, but with a similarity of honest approach that shares a humble process IMO.I think Sam will really learn some interesting things from you as well as vice versa, so I hope this interview happens. In the meantime hearing your perspective of his writing will be a real pleasure. It doesn't surprise me that you would share many of his perspectives on religion. What will be of most interest to me is how you relate to where he draws his lines on subjective experiences. Sam has done the equivalent in Buddhism of rounding and he seems to regard his experiences as having value. But where you guys differ and agree on exactly what that value means, and what conclusions we can draw from it, will be fascinating for me. This is highly relevant to my own personal journey in understanding my life today. Here he describes his book coming out this Fall with the lecture he will be giving on it. https://www.samharris.org/store/event_series/waking-up-with-sam-harris https://www.samharris.org/store/event_series/waking-up-with-sam-harris I will be fascinated to hear the distinctions you will uniquely be able to make between his POV and other people who discuss similar topics from a different perspective. As I said from the beginning of your Batgap project, your insight in letting the people speak for themselves and gathering them together is really profound from any POV on these experiences. And seeing your site today is kind of mindblowing on how much data you have collected. Big high five for being so dedicated to this project. I think Sam will be fascinated as well, this is a huge resource that he should know about. I am hoping that Sam will come off as less Guru-y and more of a co-student in this endeavor. Although I respect his thinking process, I don't view him on a life expert. I will be curious to see if he maintains that modest role or not.This is a big jump for him and he is taking a rash of shit from atheists that are getting the woo woo vibe. I am not getting that yet but I believe that it is because of my own positive experiences with mediation outside a belief system framework, like practicing TM 18 years after I left, or my current experiment with mindfulness. From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues@... Sent: Thursday, May 1, 2014 3:03 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris I think it would be a fantastic discussion and I would love to help you prep for an interview. He is an especially good choice because he is an experienced Buddhist meditator and is interested in connecting his own field, neuro science with the experiences we have in meditation. But in a more philosophical than TM brain studies way. He is coming out with a course this Fall to coincide with his new book about an alternative perspective to subjective experiences from traditional spirituality. He thinks both materialist scientists and spiritual people are jumping to conclusions. He might be especially interested in this dialogue with you at this time because of this direction he is taking. It is a direction he is taking some shit from hard core atheists for which makes him all the better as a bridge for a rich discussion with you. So although he probably does believe that consciousness is an emergent property of brain functions, he is more open to discussing the philosophical implications of our sense of self from meditation experience. He is more aware of things we don't know about human consciousness than most people, atheist or not, and would not be afraid wherever the discussion leads. I am reading his book on free will right now. Very thought provoking. Excellent idea Rick. If anyone can bridge these disparate perspective in a non judgmental way so the discussion can really breath, it is YOU! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... mailto:rick@... wrote : I have this idea kicking around in my head to try to interview Sam Harris, or someone like him. An intelligent atheist, as I understand him. I’d want to read all his books first, and then hash out the likely points of discussion with you beforehand. We could do it on FFL. My
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/2/2014 6:24 AM, Share Long wrote: R: MMY has NOTHING to do with their transcending. It's that simple. C: Not that simple since his framework for understanding my subjective meditation experiences was one that I embraced and then rejected. It continues to shape my perspective today and always will. But your assumptiveness in using the term transcending reveals a lot about your own beliefs around the practice. I would not use that term to describe how I think of my experiences in TM or with mindfulness meditation. the word is too loaded with assumptions to be useful in describing my own experience with them now. Richard's claim is nonsensical, since we all pretty much know that he'd never even *heard* the term transcending until he heard if from Maharishi. Now he can't describe meditation without using it.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 8:13 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. Curtis is probably alluding to me - I'm the informant that wants answers about the human levitation without obvious physical means of support. Also, I'd like answers to a reincarnating soul monad claim by an avowed atheist, and why MMY would have anything to do with an individual transcending or not. So many questions - so few answers. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 8:14 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com wrote: Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. According to my beliefs, only a God could levitate in front of a crowd of people over a hundred times, and then die to be reborn as a Zen Master up in Tibet. That's just my beliefs. Go figure. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely go there. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Marshy Rules the Earth
Seems rather anemic to me. ;-) On 05/01/2014 10:43 PM, TurquoiseBee wrote: A true find. Truly mind-boggling to consider that adult human beings actually thought that this was an effective sales presentation. How brainwashed do you have to be to think like that? *From:* Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, May 2, 2014 1:17 AM *Subject:* [FairfieldLife] Marshy Rules the Earth This is especially for the Turq! You are gonna f***in' love this When I saw it I just said Goddamn! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N82D5lDaaQU image https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N82D5lDaaQU Maharishi Vedic Organic Agriculture https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N82D5lDaaQU View on www.youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N82D5lDaaQU Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
By abusive behavior, I include lying, as Barry does below. I hadn't mentioned Robin when Barry made this post and did so only after Ann did, to exclude Robin. Ann wasn't aware that Curtis's refusal to criticize Barry's behavior was a longstanding bone of contention between us. And she wasn't trying to bring him up to derail another pleasant discussion anyway. The discussion in question was hardly pleasant (see below), and Ann was simply trying to clarify who Curtis might have meant by previous poster. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : And right on cue, the two Robin cultists try to bring him up to derail yet another pleasant discussion. From: awoelflebater@... awoelflebater@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Judy, I doubt that Curtis thinks of you as a previous poster! Want to guess again? I think it was more that Robin was hoping Curtis might call Barry on some of his abusive bullshit when it had something to do with Robin. But this was before my time here so I am conjecturing based on having read some old posts just previous to my showing up here. On Friday, May 2, 2014 8:20 AM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote: I hope you're not alluding to me, Curtis, because if you are, this would be a seriously misleading way of putting it. Verging on deceptive, in fact. A previous poster was also a big fan of trying to hold me accountable for Barry's perspective. What is with you guys? Can't keep yer eye on the ball in a discussion? You got a case of the Rama tourettes Richard or some wicked Barry-centric ADD. Either way take that shit up with him if you want. We can do better than run that tape loop together here can't we? I am only sleeping in the bed I make for myself here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
On 5/2/2014 8:17 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com wrote: Nobody ever disputed this point with Barry, including those who believe in determinism. He could never quite understand how someone could believe in determinism and yet continue to act as if they had free will without serious cognitive dissonance. He was unable to grasp that believers in determinism fully accepted that they had no other choice and did not perceive this to be in conflict with that belief. (Basically, Barry didn't, and likely still doesn't, comprehend what the belief entails.) We have to assume that there is a reason Barry believes in free will. I think it's because Barry believes Rama really levitated by the sheer force of his own will-power and that was all the proof Barry needed in order to become a follower. But, those of us in the real world know that the law of karma dictates that everything that goes up must come down - not float up to the top of a mountainside. That's not at all being pragmatic - that's the sign of a True Believer trying to put one over on everyone. I suspect it is the pragmatic POV that most appeals to Barry on this topic but I could be wrong. In either case we all must act as if we have free will, we have no other choice! --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
[FairfieldLife] CDB's and Sam Harris are practicing transcending MEDITATORs afterall
It is wonderful that you are meditating again. -Buck CurtisDeltaBlues [CDB] writes: I've been doing a mindfulness meditation the last month. I think I finally figured it out and how to do it in place of TM. Before the TM machine would just start up, but that is not happening now and the experience is distinctly different. I have noticed a lot of differences in how it makes me feel in activity from TM. In particular I am very pleased with the no coming out quality, even though the inner experience is as much of a shift of state in another way from what TM is. I'll keep at it as I find it very enjoyable in itself and it has not lead to any dissociation with my feelings in the way that TM seems to create. I have gone through a couple of cycles of doing TM and dropping it in the last few years due to not liking where it takes me. I'm glad I was able to figure out the differences so I can enjoy this as a new practice. i have purposely stayed away from reading much about it except to get a start with the practice. I am enjoying a practice without much of a model to shape it. I have a vague sense that I am becoming more aware of what right now means as a place to live my life from. That is about it. Probably too early to tell how I will feel about this meditation in a few months, but so far so good. I've been practicing 10 minutes with eyes closed and 5 with eyes open which is a contrast to my TM practice. It is engaging my mind MORE in the world, more awareness both during and after. It is distinctly different in orientation but just as pleasant as a version of gourmet consciousness. I always loved the experience of TM too, just not all the side effects. I don't really know how it will all turn out as we learn more about these practices from neuroscience, which one is better for me or not. I just know that I am all TMed up and am enjoying another approach to a state of mind to improve my mental orientation. I think it is worth a try to groove this in for a while to gain some of the benefits unique to this kind of practice. Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. -CDB https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/382236 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/382236 Okay, fine, so now you and Sam Harris are atheistic transcendentalists in experience without poetry. And by your own experience, in shorthand, a “substitutor meditator” in spiritual practice, Evidently like Sam Harris. Welcome back, -Buck Curtisdeltablues writes: Buck writes: Yes, evidently Harris is a transcending meditator even as a Buddhist! That is wonderful. -Buck in the Dome Did you see that even CurtisDeltaBlues is a transcending meditator now that way too? It's all the same Unified Field once you get going. C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that came from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify himself as a Buddhist. Harris: Given the degree to which religion still inspires human conflict, and impedes genuine inquiry, I believe that merely being a self-described “Buddhist” is to be complicit in the world’s violence and ignorance to an unacceptable degree. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf Again Harris; As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/ http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/ As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dp http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf Harris is an enthusiastic supporter of the kill the Buddha if you meet him on the road POV. http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpufI think there are some useful distinctions to be made in these experiences. Lumping them all together under a banner of
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 8:20 AM, Michael Jackson wrote: Christopher Hitchens would agree with him if Barry were to say such a thing. Hitchens would */NOT/* agree with Barry that Fred Lenz levitated hundreds of times. That's a dumb thing to say and not even include the quote you're referring to. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 8:45 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: Sorta like the way you're trying to barge into a pleasant conversation that doesn't concern you and trying to turn it into an argument of some kind? What a pathetic old hag you are, Judy. So, it's all about Judy. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sarah Palin Talks Tough to NRA
On 05/01/2014 04:05 PM, Richard J. Williams wrote: On 5/1/2014 1:29 PM, Bhairitu wrote: The capitalist's party. Corporations now have personhood which means we can arrest them and throw them in prison. So let's arrest Goldman-Sachs to start. Maybe we should arrest Russia and China since they are the largest corporations and they are both based on capitalism. When you start working for free and return your SS check, I will give my car away to a poor person. Go figure. As usual you are not making any sense and your math is off. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: CDB's and Sam Harris are practicing transcending MEDITATORs afterall
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : It is wonderful that you are meditating again. -Buck C: Glad you approve Buck. I am hopeful that you will be equally supportive of my new practice of doing sunyama on the phrase world petulance, suffering and war for a few minutes after each meditation. I am thinking of forming a group so we can all do this together. CurtisDeltaBlues [CDB] writes: I've been doing a mindfulness meditation the last month. I think I finally figured it out and how to do it in place of TM. Before the TM machine would just start up, but that is not happening now and the experience is distinctly different. I have noticed a lot of differences in how it makes me feel in activity from TM. In particular I am very pleased with the no coming out quality, even though the inner experience is as much of a shift of state in another way from what TM is. I'll keep at it as I find it very enjoyable in itself and it has not lead to any dissociation with my feelings in the way that TM seems to create. I have gone through a couple of cycles of doing TM and dropping it in the last few years due to not liking where it takes me. I'm glad I was able to figure out the differences so I can enjoy this as a new practice. i have purposely stayed away from reading much about it except to get a start with the practice. I am enjoying a practice without much of a model to shape it. I have a vague sense that I am becoming more aware of what right now means as a place to live my life from. That is about it. Probably too early to tell how I will feel about this meditation in a few months, but so far so good. I've been practicing 10 minutes with eyes closed and 5 with eyes open which is a contrast to my TM practice. It is engaging my mind MORE in the world, more awareness both during and after. It is distinctly different in orientation but just as pleasant as a version of gourmet consciousness. I always loved the experience of TM too, just not all the side effects. I don't really know how it will all turn out as we learn more about these practices from neuroscience, which one is better for me or not. I just know that I am all TMed up and am enjoying another approach to a state of mind to improve my mental orientation. I think it is worth a try to groove this in for a while to gain some of the benefits unique to this kind of practice. Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. -CDB https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/382236 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/382236 Okay, fine, so now you and Sam Harris are atheistic transcendentalists in experience without poetry. And by your own experience, in shorthand, a “substitutor meditator” in spiritual practice, Evidently like Sam Harris. Welcome back, -Buck Curtisdeltablues writes: Buck writes: Yes, evidently Harris is a transcending meditator even as a Buddhist! That is wonderful. -Buck in the Dome Did you see that even CurtisDeltaBlues is a transcending meditator now that way too? It's all the same Unified Field once you get going. C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that came from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify himself as a Buddhist. Harris: Given the degree to which religion still inspires human conflict, and impedes genuine inquiry, I believe that merely being a self-described “Buddhist” is to be complicit in the world’s violence and ignorance to an unacceptable degree. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf Again Harris; As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/ http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/ As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dp http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf Harris is an enthusiastic supporter of the kill the Buddha if you meet him on the road POV. http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/2/2014 8:52 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com wrote: What happened here?? Somebody got confused and thought there was such a thing as Buddhism? Everyone on the planet knows that being a Buddhists means the same thing as being non-violent and that Buddhists don't believe in the saving grace of the war-gods. Go figure. Harris: Given the degree to which religion still inspires human conflict, and impedes genuine inquiry, I believe that merely being a self-described “Buddhist” is to be complicit in the world’s violence and ignorance to an unacceptable degree. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: CDB's and Sam Harris are practicing transcending MEDITATORs afterall
From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : It is wonderful that you are meditating again.C: Glad you approve Buck. I am hopeful that you will be equally supportive of my new practice of doing sunyama on the phrase world petulance, suffering and war for a few minutes after each meditation. I am thinking of forming a group so we can all do this together. B: I am even more proactive, and am collecting funds to sponsor a yagya promoting world petulance, suffering and war. I'm sure Buck will want to participate, just as he felt others here at FFL would want to participate in his. :-) CurtisDeltaBlues [CDB] writes: I've been doing a mindfulness meditation the last month. I think I finally figured it out and how to do it in place of TM. Before the TM machine would just start up, but that is not happening now and the experience is distinctly different. I have noticed a lot of differences in how it makes me feel in activity from TM. In particular I am very pleased with the no coming out quality, even though the inner experience is as much of a shift of state in another way from what TM is. I'll keep at it as I find it very enjoyable in itself and it has not lead to any dissociation with my feelings in the way that TM seems to create. I have gone through a couple of cycles of doing TM and dropping it in the last few years due to not liking where it takes me. I'm glad I was able to figure out the differences so I can enjoy this as a new practice. i have purposely stayed away from reading much about it except to get a start with the practice. I am enjoying a practice without much of a model to shape it. I have a vague sense that I am becoming more aware of what right now means as a place to live my life from. That is about it. Probably too early to tell how I will feel about this meditation in a few months, but so far so good. I've been practicing 10 minutes with eyes closed and 5 with eyes open which is a contrast to my TM practice. It is engaging my mind MORE in the world, more awareness both during and after. It is distinctly different in orientation but just as pleasant as a version of gourmet consciousness. I always loved the experience of TM too, just not all the side effects. I don't really know how it will all turn out as we learn more about these practices from neuroscience, which one is better for me or not. I just know that I am all TMed up and am enjoying another approach to a state of mind to improve my mental orientation. I think it is worth a try to groove this in for a while to gain some of the benefits unique to this kind of practice. Any tips or insights, especially since you have a TM history and might know the issues TMers might have would be welcome. -CDB https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/382236 Okay, fine, so now you and Sam Harris are atheistic transcendentalists in experience without poetry. And by your own experience, in shorthand, a “substitutor meditator” in spiritual practice, Evidently like Sam Harris. Welcome back, -Buck Curtisdeltablues writes: Buck writes: Yes, evidently Harris is a transcending meditator even as a Buddhist! That is wonderful. -Buck in the Dome Did you see that even CurtisDeltaBlues is a transcending meditator now that way too? It's all the same Unified Field once you get going. C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that came from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify himself as a Buddhist. Harris: Given the degree to which religion still inspires human conflict, and impedes genuine inquiry, I believe that merely being a self-described “Buddhist” is to be complicit in the world’s violence and ignorance to an unacceptable degree. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf Again Harris; As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/ As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dp Harris is an enthusiastic supporter of the kill the Buddha if you meet him on the road POV. As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpufI think there are some useful distinctions to be made in these experiences. Lumping them all together under a banner of physics poetry is unlikely to result in our understanding the differences
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
So Richard responds to Curtis treating him as if he were an actual human being by retreating into full retard mode again. Interesting. Tropic Thunder (2008) You never go full Retard! Tropic Thunder (2008) You never go full Retard! View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo From: Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall On 5/2/2014 8:52 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com wrote: What happened here?? Somebody got confused and thought there was such a thing as Buddhism? Everyone on the planet knows that being a Buddhists means the same thing as being non-violent and that Buddhists don't believe in the saving grace of the war-gods. Go figure. Harris: Given the degree to which religion still inspires human conflict, and impedes genuine inquiry, I believe that merely being a self-described “Buddhist” is to be complicit in the world’s violence and ignorance to an unacceptable degree. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sarah Palin Talks Tough to NRA
Have you ever visited any socialist countries? The problem in the US is we have runaway laissez-faire capitalism. Yes, crony socialism is as bad as crony capitalism. in general I am against tyranny of any kind. Of course most of this is of little interest on FFL where the favorite topic is a dying cult. :-D On 05/02/2014 08:18 AM, jedi_sp...@yahoo.com wrote: Capitalism needs to be tweaked. Richard Wolf says that 'centralized state socialism' is as bad as 'centralised state capitalism'. IOW, Crony socialism is as bad as crony capitalism. Crony socialism existed in india, Soviet union, China and large swaths on the globe in the 1950's and 60's. In the early 1970's the Soviet economy was already in the red and it became clear that the centralised state socialism is not working. It was then most countries changed course. If you are talking about socialism of the cooperative entities like mondrovia corp, or Amul cooperative in india, that's a different issue. They exist side by side with corporates and do business with them. You are better off socializing the political system. You may have to give millions the political parties, but it's small price to pay to prevent vested interests from corrupting the system. As the world moves into the third wave, new forms of ideologies might emerge. --- Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote : The bottom line is that capitalism is to chaotic to exist in a world population of 7 billion plus. The party is over. The capitalist's party. Corporations now have personhood which means we can arrest them and throw them in prison. So let's arrest Goldman-Sachs to start. The US economy no longer is based on education, hard work, free market prices and the accountability that real free markets impose. Instead, the US economy is based on manipulation of prices, speculative control of commodities, support of the dollar by Washington’s puppet states, manipulated and falsified official statistics, propaganda from the financial media, and inertia by countries, such as Russia and China, who are directly harmed, both economically and politically, by the dollar payments system. http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/04/30/us-economy-house-cards-paul-craig-roberts/ On 05/01/2014 05:25 AM, jedi_spock@... mailto:jedi_spock@... wrote: It's important to draw a line of distinction between creation of wealth and accumulation of wealth. If the income is not spent, but put in banks or government bonds, no tax should be levied on it. Banks can lend that money to government who can use the money for infrastructure development. Only if the income is spent on something, taxes should be levied on it. It should be progressive consumption tax and not progressive income tax. You must punish 'spending of wealth'. You must reward 'creation of wealth'. You must also give incentives for people to put their money in banks, IOW save money. --- Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... wrote : The original intent of the founding fathers was a mix of capitalism and socialism. There are just some things that need to be in the commons and the Internet is now a new one that belongs there. It is the role of government to maintain the commons and leaving it open for everyone. It is the role of the people to keep government reigned in and out of the clutches of special interests. We also don't need landed gentry which the founding fathers were against. Look at these pompous ass capitalists like Donald Sterling, Tom Perkins and the Koch brothers. Use progressive taxes to discourage absurd accumulation of wealth. When Tito ran Yugoslavia the citizens got a month vacation and free health care. It was a prosperous society and a mix of socialism and free enterprise. As soon as Tito died the globalists stepped in led by the US to destroy the country. When I visited India the most prosperous state was Kerala which has a mix of socialism and free enterprise. On 04/30/2014 04:41 AM, jedi_spock@... mailto:jedi_spock@... wrote: Agreed that greed kills. Sustainable development can be done if taxes are based on 'consumption of resources' and not income. Salaries and wages paid to employees should not be treated as consumption, but as general expenses (created wealth). The salaries and wage differentials across hierarchy in corporations can be flattened and narrowed down by strict regulations. What's stopping them from doing that? It's not enough, if you just give state-funding to political parties. The system should be transparent. Any system that is opaque becomes a ground for corruption. Darkness covers a multitude of sins. Shine the light and the system will cleanse itself. --- Bhairitu noozguru@...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 9:09 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : In that last part he was referring to me because I have stated here on FFL that I practice chi gung, which has nothing to do with religion, nor kung fu for that matter, except that some martial arts practitioners use chi gung to increase their chi for their martial arts practice. Richard is just a guy who likes to disparage anyone that is not a rabid TM fan, frothing at the mouth in bliss over every little thing Marshy and the TMO ever did and said. Richard does what Bawwy does, repeats himself endlessy. The difference is that Ricky doesn't take himself seriously, in fact, he's laughing a himself while he does this. Bawwy, on the other hand, thinks he's shocking and disturbing people with is deep insights and renegade individuality. I'm laughing because MJ didn't seem to realize that the chi in Chi Gung is the pure consciousness in TM. Chi is Sanskrit means consciousness. I don't have to prove anything - all I have to do is point out the obvious self-contradictions to show that his point doesn't even exist beyond a reasonable doubt. LoL! --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Turning Firefox 29 into the old Firefox
Well of all things Ubuntu updated Firefox to 29. Much ado about nothing. :-D On 04/29/2014 07:27 PM, j_alexander_stan...@yahoo.com wrote: Some of you may have noticed that Firefox has updated to a new version with an entirely new look. Personally, I don't like the new look of the tabs, and I need to have the add-on bar back. Fortunately, the look is very customizable with add-ons. Here's a site with some very helpful info: http://www.ghacks.net/2014/04/26/turn-new-firefox-29-old-firefox/ I'm using Classic Theme Restorer to make the tabs how I like them, and I'm using The Addon Bar (restored) to bring back the add-on bar.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Turning Firefox 29 into the old Firefox
Still no forced update here in the Netherlands, so I'll see what this one has in store. Thanks to Alex for posting the IT hacks article, which I have bookmarked just in case it turns out badly. Not that I expect it to -- Mozilla has higher quality programmers than Yahoo does. Then again, the people who designed the original Obamacare website have higher quality programmers than Yahoo does. :-) From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Turning Firefox 29 into the old Firefox Well of all things Ubuntu updated Firefox to 29. Much ado about nothing. :-D On 04/29/2014 07:27 PM, j_alexander_stan...@yahoo.com wrote: Some of you may have noticed that Firefox has updated to a new version with an entirely new look. Personally, I don't like the new look of the tabs, and I need to have the add-on bar back. Fortunately, the look is very customizable with add-ons. Here's a site with some very helpful info: http://www.ghacks.net/2014/04/26/turn-new-firefox-29-old-firefox/ I'm using Classic Theme Restorer to make the tabs how I like them, and I'm using The Addon Bar (restored) to bring back the add-on bar.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Snip Exactly. That is what makes discussions or arguments about *whether* we have free will or not so BORING to me. They're completely unproductive -- a point that can never be proven one way or another. It's as silly as trying to debate the existence of God. Total waste of time. C: I don't doubt that it isn't interesting to you, so it would be a waste of your time. But in a broader sense the inquiry into where our free will starts and ends is highly useful in neuroscience. To measure brain activity that precedes our subjective experience of choice tells us a lot about how our brain communicates with itself. From a sociological POV this question has vast implications, and always has, in how we approach society's sense of justice in our legal system. It wasn't long ago that we hanged an elephant for killing a man. Today we have people on death row who were not mentally able to make a choice, so this topic is very up as we learn more about the brain and how it creates sociopaths. I believe that this information may lead to a more just humane society where we don't sentence people with a wink wink to getting raped in prison for their choice to commit a crime. From a personal POV I find the question insightful as I attempt to approach making personal changes in my life. In my experience, self improvement of any kind is like herding cats. Understanding more about how we end up influencing our own decisions may well lead to the answer to the question why do I have dark chocolate Klondike bars in my freezer if I SAY I want to lose weight? It turns out, to my chagrin, that the guy who wants to lose weight is NOT in charge of the whole herd of cats! B: This may not sit well with you, Curtis, given that your degree was in philosophy, but one of the things I've never quite understood is the way that societies tend to place philosophers on pedestals, as if what they do makes them more worthy of being on one. Most of them IMO spend their time thinking and arguing about points like this that can never be resolved. So Im supposed to look up to someone who spends their time in such futile pursuits? :-) :-) :-) C: I think philosophers lost that position after ancient Greece and have sunk to being the butt of late night jokes in the present society. But thinking about thinking, how we might bullshit ourselves less seems like a worthy subject. And like most of my personal obsessions, it isn't for everyone. I do think that assuming that any subject can never be resolved is premature. We have resolved all sorts of things throughout history, but it took us some time.My pet peeve is when we do figure something out that was debated for centuries like Slavery is wrong and then end up with more human slaves by the numbers today than any time in history! WTF. I am glad we hashed it out and came out pretty unanimously against it in the end but it isn't doing as much as I hoped. I'm blaming the herd of cats for this one too! From: curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:02 PM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I am reading his book on free will right now. Very thought provoking. Someone needs to tell Barry that Harris says the idea of free will is incoherent. Humans are not free and no sense can be given to the concept that they might be. Go figure. C: I believe that Barry and Sam would agree on the reality of our felt sense of free will. The question has to do with whether or not the data of all of our unconscious process support that POV as a realistic possibility. And it doesn't matter if the unconscious influences are karma from past lives or just unconscious neural process that can be measured before we are consciously aware of them, they still undermine our felt sense upon reflection. That's sorta what I was trying to say about my tendency to prefer pragmatism these days. IT DOESN'T MATTER whether free will exists or not; to be sane in this insane world, you've pretty much gotta act as if it does. Every time you make a decision you're pretending free will exists, even if you claim to believe that it doesn't. Harris' book has some other POVs that he does not ascribe to where the person expands their sense of what we are to include those unconscious influences so that they can all go under the umbrella of me making a decision. I am not sure where I fall yet, I may have to read some others to see if their POV appeals to me more than Harris'. I suspect it is the pragmatic POV that most appeals to Barry on this topic but I could be wrong. In either case we all must act as if we have free will, we have no other choice! Exactly. That is what makes discussions or arguments about *whether* we have free will or not so BORING to me. They're completely unproductive -- a point that can
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
I fully agree, Curtis. I admit to having lost much of my interest in Batgap because much of it seemed to me to have devolved into the ostensibly selfless talking endlessly about themselves. But it's a noble effort, and a wonderful collection of data for future social scientists. And this interview I would both watch, and probably re-watch. Sam's lecture series and online course sound really interesting. I may subscribe to the online version myself. From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:37 PM Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote : Last night I read the first chapter of the End of Faith and LOVED it. Didn’t disagree with anything I’ve read so far. I’m taking notes and will post them for discussion later on. C: I believe you guys are closer in your conclusions than would seem likely at first. You seem to have found an open intellectual space concerning topics like the assumptions in spirituality while still maintaining your own subjective experience as a center. (That may be too convoluted but it is my first attempt at articulating this.) You and Sam have found yourselves on different sides of certain lines I suspect, but with a similarity of honest approach that shares a humble process IMO.I think Sam will really learn some interesting things from you as well as vice versa, so I hope this interview happens. In the meantime hearing your perspective of his writing will be a real pleasure. It doesn't surprise me that you would share many of his perspectives on religion. What will be of most interest to me is how you relate to where he draws his lines on subjective experiences. Sam has done the equivalent in Buddhism of rounding and he seems to regard his experiences as having value. But where you guys differ and agree on exactly what that value means, and what conclusions we can draw from it, will be fascinating for me. This is highly relevant to my own personal journey in understanding my life today. Here he describes his book coming out this Fall with the lecture he will be giving on it. https://www.samharris.org/store/event_series/waking-up-with-sam-harris I will be fascinated to hear the distinctions you will uniquely be able to make between his POV and other people who discuss similar topics from a different perspective. As I said from the beginning of your Batgap project, your insight in letting the people speak for themselves and gathering them together is really profound from any POV on these experiences. And seeing your site today is kind of mindblowing on how much data you have collected. Big high five for being so dedicated to this project. I think Sam will be fascinated as well, this is a huge resource that he should know about. I am hoping that Sam will come off as less Guru-y and more of a co-student in this endeavor. Although I respect his thinking process, I don't view him on a life expert. I will be curious to see if he maintains that modest role or not.This is a big jump for him and he is taking a rash of shit from atheists that are getting the woo woo vibe. I am not getting that yet but I believe that it is because of my own positive experiences with mediation outside a belief system framework, like practicing TM 18 years after I left, or my current experiment with mindfulness.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
turq, whoops, here we go: fully developed human is a person whose brain and body are functioning in a most healthy way where most healthy means optimally conducive to life. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:34 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, as I've alluded to before with all my talk of MRI machines, I'd like to see science define full development wrt human consciousness. Til then I tend to go by my gut feeling. Which I know can be wrong. But that's part of being human. And life will set me straight one way or the other. There, that wasn't such a long wait, was it? You *do* realize that you provided no definition, right? We're still waiting for one. As, it would seem, are you. I'm past that. I don't believe that there is a top or highest level of human development. I don't even really believe that there are levels. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:20 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. NOT if they don't exist, such as the two examples you used earlier. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find meaning in, or the belief system one uses to interpret it. IMO the belief system always comes first. It colors anything you experience. So if he's got suggestions for how one can avoid that trap, I'd love to hear them. Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. What TMers and New Agers call Self is Just Another
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
so how d'ya transcend bliss?
On Fri, 5/2/14, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 3:12 PM
From: Michael Jackson
mjackso...@yahoo.com
To:
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 2,
2014 5:01 PM
Subject: Re:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive
deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some
shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss
I feel after a little while and then get up and go do
something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so
its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets
tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that
Curtis?
I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider
bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as
relying on subjective experience as one's standard for
what constitutes truth or reality or providing
value.
In many spiritual traditions bliss is
considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never
get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the
lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend
bliss and get to something more interesting.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Ann, I'd say that many people who are blissed out are simply running too much energy in the upper parts of the body. They could bring it down and ground themselves simply by stomping their feet a few times! Someday, we'll be able to measure all this maybe. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:31 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: Michael Jackson mjackson74@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis? I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as relying on subjective experience as one's standard for what constitutes truth or reality or providing value. In many spiritual traditions bliss is considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend bliss and get to something more interesting. I guess they don't call them 'BLISS NINNIES' for nothing.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, whoops, here we go: fully developed human is a person whose brain and body are functioning in a most healthy way where most healthy means optimally conducive to life. Don't rely on buzzwords, Share. Define those terms. Start with most healthy way and continue on to optimally conducive to life. We'll wait. And continue waiting. :-) On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:34 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, as I've alluded to before with all my talk of MRI machines, I'd like to see science define full development wrt human consciousness. Til then I tend to go by my gut feeling. Which I know can be wrong. But that's part of being human. And life will set me straight one way or the other. There, that wasn't such a long wait, was it? You *do* realize that you provided no definition, right? We're still waiting for one. As, it would seem, are you. I'm past that. I don't believe that there is a top or highest level of human development. I don't even really believe that there are levels. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:20 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. NOT if they don't exist, such as the two examples you used earlier. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their assumption that the universe is hierarchical in nature. I honestly don't believe it is. I think it's relational. (For me to explain this, I'd have to trot out my rap about hierarchical vs. relational databases, and I doubt anyone wants to read through that again.) I'm a hard social scientist when it comes to which comes first -- the experience one is trying to interpret or find
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
And I find int interesting that some traditions associate bliss w/ lower astral
realms when Marshy put such emphasis on the bliss of the Absolute and all that
jazz
On Fri, 5/2/14, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 3:12 PM
From: Michael Jackson
mjackso...@yahoo.com
To:
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 2,
2014 5:01 PM
Subject: Re:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive
deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some
shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss
I feel after a little while and then get up and go do
something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so
its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets
tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that
Curtis?
I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider
bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as
relying on subjective experience as one's standard for
what constitutes truth or reality or providing
value.
In many spiritual traditions bliss is
considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never
get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the
lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend
bliss and get to something more interesting.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Exactly. That is what makes discussions or arguments about *whether* we have free will or not so BORING to me. They're completely unproductive -- a point that can never be proven one way or another. It's as silly as trying to debate the existence of God. Total waste of time. C: I don't doubt that it isn't interesting to you, so it would be a waste of your time. But in a broader sense the inquiry into where our free will starts and ends is highly useful in neuroscience. To measure brain activity that precedes our subjective experience of choice tells us a lot about how our brain communicates with itself. Not seeking to argue but just to understand, what would be the conceivable *value* of learning that you had no fuckin' free will? I'll wait. :-) :-) :-) From a sociological POV this question has vast implications, and always has, in how we approach society's sense of justice in our legal system. It wasn't long ago that we hanged an elephant for killing a man. Today we have people on death row who were not mentally able to make a choice, so this topic is very up as we learn more about the brain and how it creates sociopaths. I believe that this information may lead to a more just humane society where we don't sentence people with a wink wink to getting raped in prison for their choice to commit a crime. I guess I'm not that idealistic. I think there are people out there in the world who read the news reports about Oklahoma's recent botched execution and felt GOOD that the prisoner suffered. I don't see them altering these views in any way as a result of some kind of science trying to convince them that there is no free will. From a personal POV I find the question insightful as I attempt to approach making personal changes in my life. In my experience, self improvement of any kind is like herding cats. I certainly can't disagree with that. One of the things about FFL that amuses me the most is the proliferation of people who claim to believe that God does everything and that there is no free will, but somehow *them* having decided to learn TM and continue doing it makes them special. :-) Understanding more about how we end up influencing our own decisions may well lead to the answer to the question why do I have dark chocolate Klondike bars in my freezer if I SAY I want to lose weight? It turns out, to my chagrin, that the guy who wants to lose weight is NOT in charge of the whole herd of cats! Again, not seeking to argue, but I have zero cartons of dark chocolate Klondike bars in my freezer, even though I could benefit from dropping about five pounds of weight. The fact that such bars are not sold in the Netherlands should not be a factor here. I wouldn't have them in my freezer if they were. They'd take up room needed for the frozen berries I put on my cereal in the morning. :-) B: This may not sit well with you, Curtis, given that your degree was in philosophy, but one of the things I've never quite understood is the way that societies tend to place philosophers on pedestals, as if what they do makes them more worthy of being on one. Most of them IMO spend their time thinking and arguing about points like this that can never be resolved. So Im supposed to look up to someone who spends their time in such futile pursuits? :-) :-) :-) C: I think philosophers lost that position after ancient Greece and have sunk to being the butt of late night jokes in the present society. But thinking about thinking, how we might bullshit ourselves less seems like a worthy subject. And like most of my personal obsessions, it isn't for everyone. I do think that assuming that any subject can never be resolved is premature. We have resolved all sorts of things throughout history, but it took us some time.My pet peeve is when we do figure something out that was debated for centuries like Slavery is wrong and then end up with more human slaves by the numbers today than any time in history! WTF. I am glad we hashed it out and came out pretty unanimously against it in the end but it isn't doing as much as I hoped. I'm blaming the herd of cats for this one too! From: curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 3:02 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I am reading his book on free will right now. Very thought provoking. Someone needs to tell Barry that Harris says the idea of free will is incoherent. Humans are not free and no sense can be given to the concept that they might be. Go figure. C: I believe that Barry and Sam would agree on the reality of our felt sense of free will. The question has to do with whether or not the data of all of our unconscious process support that POV as a realistic possibility. And it doesn't matter if the
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
From: Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
so how d'ya transcend bliss?
Stop regarding it as something to either value, or hold onto.
Without those value judgments, what does it actually DO for you? Or, and
possibly more important, for people around you?
On Fri, 5/2/14, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 3:12 PM
From: Michael Jackson
mjackso...@yahoo.com
To:
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 2,
2014 5:01 PM
Subject: Re:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive
deep for samadhi meditation, I have been doing some
shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss
I feel after a little while and then get up and go do
something else. The bliss starts after about one minute so
its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss gets
tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that
Curtis?
I'm not Curtis, but I'll comment. I consider
bliss almost as overrated and overvalued as
relying on subjective experience as one's standard for
what constitutes truth or reality or providing
value.
In many spiritual traditions bliss is
considered a TRAP, an illusory state that many people never
get past. In occult terms, its energy is associated with the
lower astral planes. Many traditions seek to transcend
bliss and get to something more interesting.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
turq, for most healthy way I'd go with the parameters that doctors use such as specific blood pressure, heart rate, etc. For the brain, I'd use parameters that neuroscientists use such as certain brain wave frequency, etc. I don't think these parameters are completely developed, but they're a start. On Friday, May 2, 2014 11:48 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, whoops, here we go: fully developed human is a person whose brain and body are functioning in a most healthy way where most healthy means optimally conducive to life. Don't rely on buzzwords, Share. Define those terms. Start with most healthy way and continue on to optimally conducive to life. We'll wait. And continue waiting. :-) On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:34 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, as I've alluded to before with all my talk of MRI machines, I'd like to see science define full development wrt human consciousness. Til then I tend to go by my gut feeling. Which I know can be wrong. But that's part of being human. And life will set me straight one way or the other. There, that wasn't such a long wait, was it? You *do* realize that you provided no definition, right? We're still waiting for one. As, it would seem, are you. I'm past that. I don't believe that there is a top or highest level of human development. I don't even really believe that there are levels. On Friday, May 2, 2014 10:20 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: Yes, turq, but some hierarchies are useful. NOT if they don't exist, such as the two examples you used earlier. For example, if you needed brain surgery, would you want Maya to do it?! No, you'd want someone who was *more developed* as a brain surgeon. Ok, I admit that's another assumption of mine! Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:49 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Bullshit. fuller stages of development is just another hierarchy. Brains functioning in an optimally healthy way is another hierarchy. Both are mere assumptions. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: turq, I agree with you about the use of hierarchy. But what about using the concept of fuller stages of development wrt humans? This might even be measurable scientifically. What others have called Self just might be a label for the situation in which most of the brain functioning in an optimally healthy way. On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:23 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: R: According to Harris, by paying close attention to moment-to-moment conscious experience, it is possible to make our sense of self vanish and thereby uncover a new state of personal well-being. 'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by SamHarris W.W. Norton Company, 2004 p. 214 C: Excellent quote find Richard! What I believe distinguishes him from the Maharishi perspective is that he does not identify the silent aspect of the mind with a higher Self. This also corresponds with my own experience of using TM without the belief system. I cannot say that what I used to consider my Self, is the most important aspect of my identity. That move is an intellectual one supported by the belief system and triggered by the mahavakyas in Maharishi's system. Without that presumption it appears as just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. I am fascinated by exploring this without the usual assumptions from the Vedic perspective. Excellent point, Curtis. One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. One's sense of self is lower than one's sense of Self. They build their whole philosophies around their
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
having only read some things about Harris, I am nonetheless really looking
forward to hearing a BATGAP interview with him - I do hope you do it Rick.
On Fri, 5/2/14, kry...@natel.net kry...@natel.net wrote:
Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 3:34 PM
Talk of Sam Harris brings me out of the FFL
shadows.
Harris is, in
my view, one of the clearest and boldest thinkers in the
world today. One may disagree with any number of his
positions (that radical Islam presents a dire threat to the
world, that free will is an illusion, that science can guide
our moral decisions) but the intelligence and power with
which he expresses himself is stunning. The surprising
twist that this committed atheist and materialist is
fascinated by the value that meditation can provide makes
him all the more interesting. Go for it,
Rick!
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[FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
Nice to meet you Krysto. Islam sanctions institutionalised slavery. A muslim man can keep any number of non-muslim women as slaves. He can also keep any number of concubines, apart from his 4 wives. Jihadi supremacists are serious about this stupid, unscientific, barbaric religious ideology. These revelations are the delusions of a lunatic, and anybody who believes them, are just like the people who believed Hitler or Stalin. --- krysto@... wrote : Talk of Sam Harris brings me out of the FFL shadows. Harris is, in my view, one of the clearest and boldest thinkers in the world today. One may disagree with any number of his positions (that radical Islam presents a dire threat to the world, that free will is an illusion, that science can guide our moral decisions) but the intelligence and power with which he expresses himself is stunning. The surprising twist that this committed atheist and materialist is fascinated by the value that meditation can provide makes him all the more interesting. Go for it, Rick!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 9:20 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: Love your phrase just another aspect of a multifaceted identity cluster which may or may not be all illusion. That's it. These are excellent points from Curtis and Barry. The problem is that both Buddhism and Hinduism teach that there's no reality to the material world, it's a false, momentary illusion. If so, and there's no transcendental, then you're left with what - no material world and no transcendental field - nothing. I'm not sure if nihilism is where you want to go. If there's nothing and no self and no Self, then there's just emptiness, how are you going to reincarnate and with what and where? Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
Comments below... From a sociological POV this question has vast implications, and always has, in how we approach society's sense of justice in our legal system. It wasn't long ago that we hanged an elephant for killing a man. Today we have people on death row who were not mentally able to make a choice, so this topic is very up as we learn more about the brain and how it creates sociopaths. I believe that this information may lead to a more just humane society where we don't sentence people with a wink wink to getting raped in prison for their choice to commit a crime. I guess I'm not that idealistic. I think there are people out there in the world who read the news reports about Oklahoma's recent botched execution and felt GOOD that the prisoner suffered. I don't see them altering these views in any way as a result of some kind of science trying to convince them that there is no free will. Probably not, but on the other hand such people are most likely a small minority, not nearly enough for their view to determine how society treats criminals. The outrage over that execution was worldwide. From a personal POV I find the question insightful as I attempt to approach making personal changes in my life. In my experience, self improvement of any kind is like herding cats. I certainly can't disagree with that. One of the things about FFL that amuses me the most is the proliferation of people who claim to believe that God does everything and that there is no free will, but somehow *them* having decided to learn TM and continue doing it makes them special. :-) Aside from the fact that a proliferation of people is Barry's fantasy, many of us just feel exceedingly lucky to have stumbled across TM and taken a flyer on it. The feeling special part, in the sense of taking credit for oneself, is also Barry's fantasy. But in any case, those who believe God does everything might well feel special--i.e., blessed--because God led them to TM.
[FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jedi_spock@... wrote : Nice to meet you Krysto. Islam sanctions institutionalised slavery. A muslim man can keep any number of non-muslim women as slaves. He can also keep any number of concubines, apart from his 4 wives. Jihadi supremacists are serious about this stupid, unscientific, barbaric religious ideology. These revelations are the delusions of a lunatic, and anybody who believes them, are just like the people who believed Hitler or Stalin. C: Hey Jedi! To add to your point, Sam's complaint about Islam is that it has not gone through a reformation period in modern times like other popular religions. This leads to a mismatch with modern views on all sorts of policy decisions like the role of women in society, or even as whole persons with the same rights as men. (We only let them vote in the 1920's for God's sake! My dad was born that year) Sam's views on Islam represent his view that we have given a society wide pass on evaluating religious ideas in a way not conferred to any other ideas in society. It seems outrageous to rank religions according to a scale of human rights abuse support found in the religions themselves or their scriptural support for waging actual war on infidels. But there is a specific reason that we don't have a problem with all the Buddhist terrorists in the world. Their belief system does not support this behavior, so if a Buddhist goes postal, it is all on the individual, not the religious support. Sam believes that it is the moderate religious people in all religions who protect the radicals by not allowing the fundamentals of their religion to be questioned without crying, bigotry. He is against the ecumenical assumption that all beliefs in religion should be treated with equal respect. He is not an epistemological or cultural relativist. (It is Ok to mutilate woman in their culture, we have no right to say it is brutal and sick. That is just their belief after all so who are we to judge?) --- krysto@... wrote : Talk of Sam Harris brings me out of the FFL shadows. Harris is, in my view, one of the clearest and boldest thinkers in the world today. One may disagree with any number of his positions (that radical Islam presents a dire threat to the world, that free will is an illusion, that science can guide our moral decisions) but the intelligence and power with which he expresses himself is stunning. The surprising twist that this committed atheist and materialist is fascinated by the value that meditation can provide makes him all the more interesting. Go for it, Rick!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
On 5/2/2014 9:20 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: One of the things I reject about almost all forms of spirituality I've encountered is that they're stuck in hierarchical thinking. This is where discussion gets really tricky - /where exactly is the *spirit* in *spirituality*?/ Is it in the object of perception, perception itself, or in the object, or is it separate from these? The tern spiritual implies a spirit, somewhere. Otherwise, you're just talking in circles. Is there a spiritual path with no spirit? Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
On 5/2/2014 10:02 AM, Rick Archer wrote: Last night I read the first chapter of the End of Faith and LOVED it. Didn’t disagree with anything I’ve read so far. I’m taking notes and will post them for discussion later on. You may find the idea of a nuclear first-strike against Iran to be not quite to your liking, but I tend to agree with Harris on this - avoid the danger that lies ahead. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
[FairfieldLife] Fwd: my LTE (Letter to the Editor) and Terry Smith's re: Heartland
Dearest Bhavani, Here are two good editorials from yesterday's Ledger. Lots of love, Bo Begin forwarded message: From: Bob Klauber rklau...@lisco.com Subject: my LTE and Terry Smith's re: Heartland Date: May 2, 2014 9:33:14 AM CDT Fairfield Ledger, May 1, 2014 Heartland and Being Good Neighbors (submitted title) Love Your Neighbor as Yourself (published title) To the editor: Regarding the planned Heartland Coop grain processing plant, I believe everyone understands that it would benefit some, while causing harm to others. In a democracy, what is a just tradeoff? Farmers, who generally deserve better rewards for their efforts, would gain (and everyone I know supports farmers). Those living near the facility would lose the tranquility, and financial value, of homes they have worked long and hard for. All living within a certain distance would be subject to respiratory health issues (as has been documented elsewhere) and unnerving noise levels. I wonder if each of us, particularly the county supervisors, should be asking the following questions. First, to provide incremental benefit to a minority (farmers constitute 6% of county population) should the homes, quality of life, and health of even one of our neighbors, let alone a significant number, be sacrificed? Could incremental benefit even to a majority justify such action? Finally, should a corporation be entitled to do so? I submit that the answer, in each case, is no. Jesus said “'Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than this. Would any of us want Heartland right next door to our home? If so, and if you live well outside the city, then please invite them to build near you. If not, then please do not support laws or entities that force your neighbors to have done to them what you would not want done to yourself. Bob Klauber Eight new jobs hardly count as development By Terry Smith | May 01, 2014 To the editor: On behalf of myself and several other residents of Jefferson County, I’d like to express my concern that the infrastructure costs of the proposed Heartland Co-op project will end up costing Jefferson County taxpayers dearly. While we strongly support farmers and their ability to bring grain to the most attractive markets, we feel that projects requiring road building and other infrastructure costs of this scale should benefit everyone in Jefferson County, and not just one industrial facility producing only eight long-term jobs. This has the potential to be a bad deal for Jefferson County taxpayers because: • Substantial new infrastructure development is needed to accommodate truck traffic to the facility from five surrounding counties; • It will take 12 years of Heartland tax dollars to repay the $2.2 million Osage paving costs; • Taxpayers will likely have to foot the $272,000 bill to partially pave Nutmeg Avenue. • Eventually Nutmeg Avenue will have to be fully paved all the way to Salina Road to accommodate traffic from the north to the tune of an estimated $2.8 million dollars according to French-Reneker estimates. Will taxpayers pay for this as well? Or, will another 12 years or longer of Heartland tax dollars go to pay for that road? So, either way we are looking at some 24 to 25 years of paying loans from infrastructure costs, before the county sees a single tax dollar from Heartland for the project. Or, Jefferson County taxpayers could end up having to foot the bill through another debt levy. This does not even account for upkeep costs, or extra costs of wear and tear on other county and city roads. Either way, with only eight jobs created, and likely 30 lost as Overland Sheepskin is forced to move, where is the economic benefit to all residents of Jefferson County? There are many other locations in Southeast Iowa the company can locate, without depriving farmers of the benefits of access to additional grain elevator locations. Let’s get economic development that benefits all taxpayers and creates multiple jobs, and not just one business with only a few jobs. There is little sense paving the way, so to speak, for a business that the county will see no real tax income from for 25 years. That is not economic development, that’s simply ending up holding the short end of the stick. – Terry Smith, Fairfield
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/2/2014 9:45 AM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: I am open to Maharishi's perspective that in fact I am so habituated from his practice that I am not actually practicing a mindfulness practice at all. But my experience leads me to believe that I am having a different subjective experience so I am working with what I have. This becomes very simple when you realize that */TM IS mindfullness. /*Anything can be an object of meditation - a thought, a sound, a mantra or an image or just being aware of breathing in and out. The idea in both is to transcend thinking and to get beyond discursive reasoning. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Turning Firefox 29 into the old Firefox
Users can be really pissy about UI changes, especially on mobile apps. There are some changes I want to make to my Android apps but I can just about hear the hackles now. Since I last designed the interface for those Google has added the three bar menu button which I want to use. As I've mentioned I've also been developing some HTML5 apps which are driven by Javascript. It's basically one app that runs on everything approach. But it is still a little in it's infancy. Probably one of the best sources of information on how to do this as well as monetize via advertising since people don't like to pay for apps is Mozilla. Otherwise you're left to half-ass articles on blogs by developers who I'm sure you are familiar with tend to skip steps and leave even a professional programmer hanging. :-D On 05/02/2014 09:11 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: Still no forced update here in the Netherlands, so I'll see what this one has in store. Thanks to Alex for posting the IT hacks article, which I have bookmarked just in case it turns out badly. Not that I expect it to -- Mozilla has higher quality programmers than Yahoo does. Then again, the people who designed the original Obamacare website have higher quality programmers than Yahoo does. :-) *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, May 2, 2014 6:06 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Turning Firefox 29 into the old Firefox Well of all things Ubuntu updated Firefox to 29. Much ado about nothing. :-D On 04/29/2014 07:27 PM, j_alexander_stan...@yahoo.com mailto:j_alexander_stan...@yahoo.com wrote: Some of you may have noticed that Firefox has updated to a new version with an entirely new look. Personally, I don't like the new look of the tabs, and I need to have the add-on bar back. Fortunately, the look is very customizable with add-ons. Here's a site with some very helpful info: http://www.ghacks.net/2014/04/26/turn-new-firefox-29-old-firefox/ I'm using Classic Theme Restorer to make the tabs how I like them, and I'm using The Addon Bar (restored) to bring back the add-on bar.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/2/2014 9:45 AM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I am open to Maharishi's perspective that in fact I am so habituated from his practice that I am not actually practicing a mindfulness practice at all. But my experience leads me to believe that I am having a different subjective experience so I am working with what I have. This becomes very simple when you realize that TM IS mindfullness. Anything can be an object of meditation - a thought, a sound, a mantra or an image or just being aware of breathing in and out. The idea in both is to transcend thinking and to get beyond discursive reasoning. C: I think we have been around this May pole before Richard. I am inclined to believe that there are valid distinctions both experientially as well as physiologically between different types of meditation. It isn't that your comparison isn't valid, it may be on the level you are focusing on. But it misses distinctions that do matter. We are focusing on different aspects of the same thing. Personally, internally there are some differences that make a difference in how I feel in different kinds of meditation and in activity afterwards. I would not say that I ever transcend thinking, I would say that my relationship to my own thinking shifts. So I don't hold transcending thinking as a goal for either my TM or mindfulness. Getting beyond discursive reasoning seems like a result of most of the the things I do with music or exercise so I guess meditation does that too. But it is not a rare commodity in my life so I wouldn't meditate just for that result. But if your point is that there are a lot of ways to shift attention into a different style of functioning I am with you. It seems like there are and I am curious about how they differ as well as what is the same. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
