Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris

2014-05-08 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 From: Share Long sharelong60@...
 

 As for God, that too may simply be a word that ancients came up with to 
describe a certain kind of neurological experience. I find that a fascinating 
possibility for research as the ability to measure such becomes better.

I agree, although I don't see science ever being able to measure all of what 
subjectively registers as spiritual experience. I do believe that much of it, 
however, will be found to be due to neurological brain farts -- neither 
higher or lower, neither good nor bad, and certainly not due to any 
experience of or intervention by a God. 
 

 I think the growth of wisdom is a desirable thing, and something that takes 
place over a lifetime.  I would call it the growth of spirituality.  There may 
be instances of flash, or maybe not.
 

 I really don't have a problem putting such experiences in the good column, 
and rating that higher than a life spent with no self reflection.
 

 YMMV
 

   

 
 

 

 





































[FairfieldLife] Re: speaking of reincarnation...

2014-05-08 Thread steve.sundur
Welcome Back!
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote :

 'doctor dumbass' has expired (frowny face) ...and been reborn (hallelujah!) --
 

 I am living in a mobile home park, in Chico, sussing out the town, for a 
possible move -- hence my new nom de plume, 'fleetwood_macncheese', which has 
nothing to do with the band, and more to do with my brand -- 'fleetwood' is the 
motor-home type (like 'ford' or 'chevy'), and 'macncheese' speaks for itself - 
lol.
  
 The S(T)F(U) Bay Area was making me crazy, so after my wife and I visited here 
earlier this year, I decided to check it out, longer-term, and actually live 
here for several months, and if we like it, move here for good. Real estate is 
a third or less, what it is around SF, and I can drive from one end of town to 
the other, in ten minutes -- probably will get a bike. 
 

 Went hiking yesterday in a huge city park (1900 acres), and took my first 
picture of a coyote, and some spectacular scenery - some links:
 

 the gorge
 https://app.box.com/s/9xgutxe6e71sjo1asr53 
https://app.box.com/s/9xgutxe6e71sjo1asr53

 

 rock and tree
 https://app.box.com/s/qum5s09mi2j70kgsvept 
https://app.box.com/s/qum5s09mi2j70kgsvept

 

 panorama
 https://app.box.com/s/d81ryrppz1fyml4ttyzp 
https://app.box.com/s/d81ryrppz1fyml4ttyzp

 

 lava field
 https://app.box.com/s/89oaxs7xoxzm50dwik1a 
https://app.box.com/s/89oaxs7xoxzm50dwik1a

 

 early canyon sun
 https://app.box.com/s/oyr1781pkcwc9hskei51 
https://app.box.com/s/oyr1781pkcwc9hskei51

 

 coyote
 https://app.box.com/s/cbcw1rbvry3xcdfkgytf 
https://app.box.com/s/cbcw1rbvry3xcdfkgytf

 

 Also, in keeping with the latest controversy on FFL, 'God', or a divine 
intelligence, infinitely greater than myself, recently led me, to the *best* 
cheeseburger in town, no kidding --
 

 Driving back after my hike, I was hungry, so I turned into the first 
nondescript, non-chain, place I saw, 'Big Chico Burger' - I walked in, and they 
asked me what I wanted, and I said, I'm looking for the best cheeseburger, in 
Chico - turns out they serve American kobe beef from a local ranch, 
char-broiled, on an artisanal bun from a local bakery, with fries and a drink, 
for FIVE BUCKS (!). Hey. c'mon you atheists, if this ain't proof of The Big 
Guy, I don't know what is -- Blew me away, and they are close by. Surrounded by 
farms and with a large college population, there is a serious foodie vibe in 
this town.
 

 So, I have a patch of grass, jacks down, slide out, a quiet day, and the 
neighbors are friendly. 
 Cheers, from Chico :-)
 

 





RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Reformed Buddhists

2014-05-08 Thread steve.sundur
is that so? 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 I have heard he said it many different ways. Maharishi was repetitive; he had 
basically the same message for over 50 years. As he said to one teacher 
'Haven't you noticed I say the same thing over and over again?' 

 The subject of reincarnation I find intriguing because, from a spiritual point 
of view, exactly what does reincarnation mean? The typical thing seems to be 
there is some special something in you that survives death of the body and 
somehow re-inhabits another body later on, but I have never bought that 
explanation. I have always thought it had to do with how the mind fragments 
experience, that is reincarnation - embodiment - is something that happens in 
real time now, something that breaks the unity of experience into separate 
embodied pieces each of which, to the viewpoint of the mind, has a beginning, a 
birth, and an ending, a death.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote :

 Just to be picky, I don't believe in it can mean either I don't believe it 
exists or I'm opposed to it. If you're opposed to abortion, you might well 
say, I don't believe in abortion. 

 Anyway, what I heard that he said was Reincarnation is for the ignorant, 
which is better than either.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote :

 From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On 
Behalf Of LEnglish5@...
Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2014 1:12 PM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Reformed Buddhists
  
  
 Reincarnation? I don't believe in it -Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
 He didn’t say that. He said he was “opposed” to it. Get the distinction? Means 
he believes in it, but wants people to get liberated so they won’t reincarnate.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... wrote :
 Hey, I laughed, too...  :-)

 
  




 













Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris

2014-05-08 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 
 





Thanks for your comments. One of the things that amuses me in this discussion 
is that two of the participants so far who are on record as having no need to 
believe in a God are also on record as having had enlightenment experiences. 
Whereas possibly some of those who think of themselves as believers in God have 
not. 
 

 Such an assumption that really serves no useful purpose other than, well, you 
know..

Clearly belief in God has nothing to do with awakening or being able to have 
clear, according-to-Maharishi's-definitions periods of enlightenment. 
 

 It might be helpful to know who you are arguing with on this point.  

My larger point is that I think that having a belief in God has nothing to do 
with *anything* other than having Just Another Belief. Such a belief is not 
necessary to follow a spiritual path, and not having such a belief is no 
hindrance to one.   
 

 You do realize that you make this point on a nearly daily basis as though 
there is someone on the other side of this argument.
 

 I mean, I get the impression that people who have so called spiritual 
experiences may just make a note of them, and then move on.  Now, I suppose 
there are many who benchmark these experiences, but really, it's not anything I 
much see here.  So, maybe your comments are directed to a different audience.
 

 Even Jim, who is not bashful about declaring his enlightenment uses his own 
descriptions.  I mean maybe they do end up corresponding somewhat to the 
experiences you read about in texts, and that MMY has outlined, but growth of 
spiritual experiences, if they are genuine, come off as being quite fresh, and 
usually quite confusing, at least at first.











Re: [FairfieldLife] calm the situation in Ukraine-you can help!

2014-05-08 Thread steve.sundur
Mikey, the Jews having to register was not correct.  That was pointed out to 
you over a week ago.  Come on now son, let's stay on track. Shall we? 

 (at this point our protagonist paces the stage, experiencing some cognitive 
dissonance that one of his pet premises has been shot down)
 

 A soliloquy begins:  This powerful guru, still powerful after death!  Oh, how 
thin I am spread, from California to Ukraine.  I have only turned two away this 
month.  Forgive me! Forgive me!  Am I not up to the task?  No, of course I am!  
I must continue this mission.  They say I am entitled to my own opinions, but 
not my own facts!  HOW DARE THEY?  My narrative must stand.  It must stand, 
must stand, must stand..
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 and you are ignoring the violence inthe Ukraine, the fact that Jews now have 
to register and all that??? 
 
 On Fri, 5/9/14, srijau@... mailto:srijau@... srijau@... mailto:srijau@... 
wrote:
 
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] calm the situation in Ukraine-you can help!
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, May 9, 2014, 12:16 AM
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 also Citizen Sidha groups program start very
 recently near Moscow with over 70!
 Invincible
 Ukraine 
 Invincible
 Ukraine Creating
 Coherence and Harmony in the Collective Consciousness of
 Ukraine for Peace and Unity in the Nation 
 
 
 
 
 View on www.invincible-ukraine.org
 
 
 Preview by Yahoo 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Downright humility-inspiring

2014-05-06 Thread steve.sundur
The other day, on the radio, they had a piece about something you changed your 
mind about.  And they interviewed a guy, I forget who he was, who said he 
changed his mind about whether we, as humans, are really as insignificant in 
the cosmic scheme of things as is sometimes said to be the case. 

 It just happened to be something I had been thinking about as well.
 

 Maybe we're not.
 

 His point was that, in at least our little corner of the universe, immense as 
it is, we can seem to raise anyone else.
 

 Anyway, it doesn't mean it needs to translate into some egotistical notion 
about our importance.  It's just an observation.
 

 Pretty ugly graphic, I'd have to say though.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 For those who feel the need to post every so often about how important TMers 
are, or how important the butt-bouncers of Fairfield are, or even how important 
to the universe human beings on planet Earth are, here's a graphic to put 
things into somewhat more accurate perspective. It's a visualization of every 
human being on the planet -- all 7.2 billion of us -- piled up in the Grand 
Canyon. The video below the photo explains things -- literally -- a bit more...

 

 
 

 How Many Things Are There? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6eOcd06kdk

 
 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6eOcd06kdk
 
 How Many Things Are There? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6eOcd06kdk

 
 View on www.youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6eOcd06kdk
 Preview by Yahoo
 

 







RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris

2014-05-06 Thread steve.sundur
Rick, I am glad the interviews are gaining a wider audience.  I think they 
deserve that.  

 I chuckled to myself though as I read your preparations for the interview.  
The thought that popped into my head was, Does he think he is interviewing 
God?
 

 I'm just a crazy SOB.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote :

  
 From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On 
Behalf Of steve.sundur@...
Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 6:57 PM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam 
Harris


  
  
 Jesus Christ, Rick, are you going to propose marriage to the guy, or just 
interview him!
 Well, he and I are both married, not gay, and there’s a big age difference, so 
that would probably be hard to arrange. But hey, stranger things have happened.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
rick@... mailto:rick@... wrote :
 I’m going to read all of his books before even inviting him, and take notes as 
I go along, which I’ll share and discuss with you. Then I’ll carefully compose 
an invitation letter, which I’ll bounce off you also. So it may even be a year 
before the interview happens, if he agrees to one. But I would want it to be 
one that really did justice to the guy.
  
 From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On 
Behalf Of curtisdeltablues@...
Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 8:59 AM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris


  
  
 Hey Rick,

If you follow the threads from Lawson about Sam Harris you will gain some 
insight into Harris' world. In most debates and interviews he has to spend most 
of this time sorting out the misunderstandings about his position caused by 
people quoting people misrepresenting his ideas rather than his actual points 
in his books. Richard even posted a attribution to his book under statements 
from other people misrepresenting his positions, and this is very common all 
over the internet. 

If you get a chance to interview him your ability to state his actual points 
will be a huge rapport builder. And this seems like just an obvious point for 
any interview but controversial guys like him are more prone to people 
misrepresenting their ideas to make them look bad so he is extra touchy about 
this. Just focusing on his actual points that can be challenged for good 
reasons will make your interview a breath of fresh air for him I am sure.
  







 









Re: [FairfieldLife] Wise President Putin

2014-05-06 Thread steve.sundur
algae in a municipal water supply?  with an odor? that sounds strange.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote :

 I'm about to go back to drinking it for a while because the city water has 
algae in it which they claim is harmless but stinks.  I have a refer with a 
filter for water which helps but doesn't get rid of the algae that well.  When 
I was at a movie last year they told me the drinks might smell because of the 
algae in the water.  I was surprised that the pop machines didn't have a filter 
on they line.  I seem to recall they used too.  Maybe they do but it can't get 
rid of the algae.
 
 On 05/06/2014 08:14 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:
 
   I love, love, love, love bottled water.
 


 




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:

2014-05-04 Thread steve.sundur
Let me reply on behalf of Michael.  

 Ha! Proves It!. Just what we all suspected! Marshy tricked us all.  Told us 
our meditation was the most important activity for the movement.  But no, it 
was the kitchen activity.  No doubt this was just a ploy on the his part to 
make us pay more for kitchen ingredients.  Or, I know! He told us we needed to 
pay more for better ingredients, and the substituted cheap stuff.  And no doubt 
Girish was there, making a note of it all.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 
 Before a meeting with scientists in Seelisberg Maharishi was asked; Who is the 
most important person here now. Maharishi replied: the cook

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote :

 On 5/3/2014 4:25 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:

 Is this the same as heads I win, tails you lose  I mean, many of your 
arguments are fashioned that way I think.

 
 This may have some partial truth to it, because anyone can tell that MJ has 
some mental and emotional instability problems. The question though, is did he 
have these problems before he started TM or as a result of rounding, or as a 
result of his upbringing. Go figure.
 
 Another question is, why don't the people at MUM screen people for these kinds 
of problems? 
 
 Everyone knows that the mental condition and attitude of the cook at a yoga 
camp has a direct effect on the well being of the camp participants. When 
you've got a cook with a negative attitude you are going to have some real 
serious problems. In one case, the bad food almost caused a revolt, according 
to my sources. It's bad enough to have to eat cafeteria food, but it's just an 
insult to get a sarcastic dish washer as well.
 
 Only the most advanced meditators are allowed to even get near the kitchen at 
a Zen Session. 
 
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@... wrote :
 
 you are wrong about that some aspects of the practice under certain 
circumstances leads to mental and emotional instability.

 
 

 
 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus 
http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
 
 






Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: One last set of thoughts for Curtis

2014-05-04 Thread steve.sundur
good points Share.  what the Turq doesn't realize I think is that on some 
level, whether he wants to acknowledge it or not, is that his life is driven to 
gain more understanding, as is the same as most people.  It is, as you say hard 
wired into us. 

 And the funny thing is, that once you start having experiences of non doer 
stuff, etc., you really don't pay attention to them.  you just let it happen, 
or not happen.
 

 what doesn't make sense, at least for me, is to make such a damn big deal 
about whether it is a big deal.  It's not, unless you continue to make a big 
deal about it not being a big deal. (-:
 

 it's kind of like the only time you aren't aware of gravity, is when you are 
most under its influence.
 

 I think the spiritual game is like that. It propagates itself to some extent.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote :

 turq, I think most humans have a hierarchy, if only in that they have 
preferred states. Your preferred state  is to view all conditions as equal in 
value. But by that very preferring, you raise the state of no hierarchy to the 
top of the heap of states! Because the thing is, humans, at a fundamental 
level, cannot prefer or value more highly, what they even unconsciously hold as 
detrimental. My guess is that having preferences or hierarchies is hard wired 
into us for survival value.
 

 On Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:03 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... wrote:
 
   Great information, anartaxius. Wolfram's theories kinda mesh with mine, in 
that I don't see any *need* to postulate free will when both the complexity and 
the seeming order we see around us can just as easily be explained by random 
collisions within a somewhat-ordered but fundamentally random system. 

One of the ways I think some spiritual people get a bit off in their 
thinking about determinism or a lack of free will is that they're trying to 
impose their hierarchical *intellectual understanding of a certain subjective 
state onto the universe as a whole and say, That's it. That's how it works. 
That is how the universe IS at its most fundamental level.

I am speaking, of course, of the Not the doer experience. Most on this forum 
have heard about it; many have experienced it. I have, too. And it's an 
interesting feeling, being so in the flow of life that it seems as if you are 
a mere puppet dancing to someone or something else manipulating the puppet 
strings. 

I have NO PROBLEM with this feeling or subjective experience existing. I've had 
it myself. What I *don't* do is assign that subjective experience a *value* of 
being higher or more fundamental than any other subjective experience. Not 
the doer is, for me, Just Another Experience, Just Another State Of Attention. 

I think many spiritual folks have been taught that it ISN'T Just Another 
State Of Attention, it's the HIGHEST State Of Attention, and that one should 
aspire or seek to having it all the time. You pay yer dues on the spiritual 
path, and finally you get to live in this highest state all the time. That, 
of course, is the basis of Maharishi's Seven States Of Consciousness. 
Completely and utterly hierarchical. 

As I've stated before, I don't believe that life or the universe IS 
hierarchical. And I don't believe that any subjective state of attention -- 
even Unity or Brahman as described by MMY -- is the highest or best or 
most fundamental state of attention. It's just another one. 

But if you believe this Not the doer feeling is *more* than a feeling, and 
how things should be when you've reached some supposed pinnacle of human 
evolution, you might come to believe that the subjective feeling is somehow 
correct or the baseline of existence and that you have no free will. 

I don't buy it. I think that the Not the doer thang, however interesting it 
may be, is -- as I said -- Just Another State Of Attention, and no closer to 
any fundamental truth about the universe than any other state. So there is no 
impetus on my part to want to believe that my personal Not the doer feelings 
were anything more *than* feelings. I don't have to try to postulate a lack of 
free will just because I've occasionally experienced something that feels like 
that subjectively. I don't buy the dogma that suggests that having an ego and a 
sense of self is in any way lesser than having a non-ego, not-the-doer sense of 
Self. They're just different states, that's all. No hierarchy or better about 
either one. 
 

 From: anartaxius@... anartaxius@...
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:11 AM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: One last set of thoughts for Curtis
 
 
   Based on ideas that began with the work of mathematicians Benoit Mandelbrot 
and John Conway, the physicist Stephen Wolfram has some interesting ideas on 
the nature of free will. Wolfram has been investigating simple computational 
systems that have very simple starting conditions and very simple rules which 
nonetheless result in 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Great oppurtunity for rethinking

2014-05-04 Thread steve.sundur
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 Quite simply, if Maharishi's knowledge had been worth a shit to begin with, 
such policies and the attitudes they spring from could never have been born in 
the first place. 
 

 Proximity to Marshy and length of time spent both administering the Movement 
and doing TMSP breeds arrogance, elitism, uncaring attitudes about common 
people, greed and a general display of poor behavior. 
 

 Or, it may be that you are extrapolating your experience to the entire 
organization.  Not to say that there aren't plenty of examples of such, but as 
usual, you are not interested in anything that could be described as fair and 
balanced. If it doesn't fit your agenda, you simply leave it out. 
 

 

 

 at the introduction of Naharishi brahminism is getting an thoughtful reboot 
to make the
 participants more appreciative of Maharishi's knowledge,
 we have a great opportunity to rethink policies that reduce
 supperradiance by banning people from the domes for
 competing with the movement or visiting other
 spiritual guru types when they are not wavering their
 adherence to core values concerning the TM and TM Sidhis
 purity.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 


 


 








Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: One last set of thoughts for Curtis

2014-05-04 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 
 Rhetorical question. No need to reply. I was just amused that neither you nor 
Share can conceive of having a preference without the presence of some kind of 
hierarchy. I would suggest that this is pretty limited thinking. But if it 
makes you unhappy, stick with it.  :-)
 

 Comment requiring no response:
 

 What I find odd, is that the person who just a day ago complained about 
someone coming in and spoiling a pleasant conversation is doing the same thing 
here.
 

 The only purpose of this last paragraph is to try to demean someone elses 
point of view.  
 

 At least, that's the way I see it.  Sorta like you can't disagree without a 
gratuitous personal dig.
















 





[FairfieldLife] Re: Wise President Putin

2014-05-04 Thread steve.sundur
Ok Michael, you wanted proof, there you have it!  The ME in spades.  I did 
meditate twice this week, and I think that may have pushed us over the edge. 

 And hey, I am not discounting, for a second, not for a second, the beneficial 
effect of Shikantaza meditation, which of course is a Japanese translation of a 
Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the
 Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated
with the Soto school.

Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is
the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in
Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It
emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors,
or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream
of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without
interference.
 

 No, I am giving equal credit to both.
 

 Does this call for a Pappy's Van Winkle for celebration?
 

 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 

 It’s Official – Russia Completely Bans GMOs 

 thank you President Putin and Prime Minister Medvedev. Jai Maharishi! Jai Raja 
Fagan! Jai Maharaja! Jai Guru Deva! 



  



[FairfieldLife] Re: Wise President Putin

2014-05-04 Thread steve.sundur
Just a little note: 

 I feel like when when mentioning Shikantaza meditation, as when mentioning the 
Saint, May Peace Be Upon Him, that Shikantaza should not have to stand alone. 
 You understand of course. 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 Ok Michael, you wanted proof, there you have it!  The ME in spades.  I did 
meditate twice this week, and I think that may have pushed us over the edge. 

 And hey, I am not discounting, for a second, not for a second, the beneficial 
effect of Shikantaza meditation, which of course is a Japanese translation of a 
Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the
 Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated
with the Soto school.

Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is
the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in
Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It
emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors,
or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream
of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without
interference.
 

 No, I am giving equal credit to both.
 

 Does this call for a Pappy's Van Winkle for celebration?
 

 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 

 It’s Official – Russia Completely Bans GMOs 

 thank you President Putin and Prime Minister Medvedev. Jai Maharishi! Jai Raja 
Fagan! Jai Maharaja! Jai Guru Deva! 



  






Re: [FairfieldLife] Great oppurtunity for rethinking

2014-05-04 Thread steve.sundur
Slow down, slow down!  I don't really care what you do.   Quit making such 
grand proclamations.  I've an idea. At the risk of sounding like I'm preaching, 
why don't you work on number one a bit, and just see you have some pockets of 
bitterness you need to smooth out. n'est 'ce pas. (-;
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 I say this to you Steve and all my other critics here on FFL - If Marshy was 
enlightened, and if the TMO does much more good in the world than harm, I am 
willing to believe it, and I go on record that if those things can be proven to 
me then I will reverse every criticism I have ever leveled against the TMO and 
Marshy.
 
 I will stop calling him, Marshy, Old Goat, lying son of bitch and all the 
other names I have called him. I will become a spokesperson for the TMO, 
telling my story of how I became convinced that TM is the best thing since 
sliced bread. 
 
 I will spearhead a push to get TM in ALL middle schools, high schools, 
colleges, universities and trade schools in the country and in all US 
protectorates around the globe. 
 
 I will be part of a supreme effort to get TM in every single US military 
facility around the world, I will ask that TM and TMSP become part of every 
soldier, sailor, airman, marine and coast guard basic training and 
 
 I will ask that Congress pass a law that every single congressman upon 
becoming elected must learn TM and TMSP. I would also have it further mandated 
that before ANY important vote on the house and senate floor the entire 
congress would meditate together for half an hour. 
 
 Before Buck, Nabby, Feste, Sri and Steve spontaneously ascend into heaven over 
the idea of all of the above, thus far I see no proof nor even any credible 
evidence that Marshy was enlightened, nor that the TMO does more good than 
harm. Mostly I see and hear evidence of quite the opposite. Stories of Marshy's 
arrogance, elitist attitudes, Hindu fanaticism misuse and manipulation of 
people, and a great deal more of both personal experience and the collective 
experiences of friends, acquaintances and strangers that the TMO mainly tells 
us that all sorts of grand things are GONE happen, they are not happening now 
really for a variety of reasons but they are GONE happen, so keep giving 
generously and keep buying abundantly all our goods, service and nostrums so 
all this fabulous stuff will actually happen. 
 
 Mostly the Marshy did and the TMO still today tells everyone to do it and buy 
it just cuz we say its real and true, not because it actually is true and real 
and good. They ask everyone to suspend their own common sense, their own wisdom 
and ability to discern truth and just believe whatever they are told by the TMO 
especially where what the TMO says today contradicts what was said yesterday. 
They want everyone just to believe and pay up even when the belief is obviously 
superstition such as hiding under your desks during a solar eclipse As to the 
claims and questionable research, I have to quote the wisdom of the Turq - If 
TM (and its adjunct programs) were any good, they wouldn't have to lie to sell 
them.
 
 On Sun, 5/4/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... 
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Great oppurtunity for rethinking
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014, 1:27 PM
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ---In
 FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
mjackson74@... wrote
 :
 
 Quite simply, if
 Maharishi's knowledge had been worth a shit
 to begin with, such policies and the attitudes they spring
 from could never have been born in the first
 place. 
 Proximity to Marshy
 and length of time spent both administering the Movement and
 doing TMSP breeds arrogance, elitism, uncaring attitudes
 about common people, greed and a general display of poor
 behavior. 
 Or, it may be that you are
 extrapolating your experience to the entire organization.
  Not to say that there aren't plenty of examples of
 such, but as usual, you are not interested in anything that
 could be described as fair and balanced. If it doesn't
 fit your agenda, you simply leave it out. 
 
 
 at the introduction of
 Naharishi brahminism
 is getting an thoughtful reboot to make the
 
 participants more appreciative of Maharishi's
 knowledge,
 
 we have a great opportunity to rethink policies that
 reduce
 
 supperradiance by banning people from the domes for
 
 competing with the movement or visiting other
 
 spiritual guru types when they are not wavering their
 
 adherence to core values concerning the TM and TM Sidhis
 
 purity.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Wise President Putin

2014-05-04 Thread steve.sundur
hoo boy
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 If you a stupid enough or insane enough to believe that the banning of GMO's 
is proof of the ME when Putin is invading another country and requiring Jews to 
register as Jews then you need to go check into your local state mental 
hospital.
 
 On Sun, 5/4/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... 
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
 
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Wise President Putin
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014, 1:57 PM
 
 
 
 
 Ok Michael,
 you wanted proof, there you have it!  The ME in spades.  I
 did meditate twice this week, and I think that may have
 pushed us over the edge.
 And hey, I am not discounting, for a second, not for a second, the
 beneficial effect of Shikantaza meditation, which of course
 is a Japanese translation
 of a Chinese term
 for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of
 theCaodong school of Zen
 Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated
 with the Soto school.
 
 Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō
 school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is
 the largest of the three traditional
 sects of Zen in
 Japanese
 Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It
 emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no
 objects, anchors,
 or content.
 The meditator strives to be aware of the stream
 of thoughts, allowing them to arise and
 pass away without
 interference.
 No, I am giving equal credit to
 both.
 Does this call for a
 Pappy's Van Winkle for celebration?
 
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
 no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :
 
 
 It’s
 Official – Russia Completely Bans GMOs
 thank you President Putin and Prime
 Minister Medvedev. Jai Maharishi! Jai Raja Fagan! Jai
 Maharaja! Jai Guru Deva! 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris

2014-05-04 Thread steve.sundur
Just a friendly comment from the peanut gallery.   

 You may think you don't have a hair trigger in this regard, but you might be 
mistaken.
 

 You also might want to examine which issues push your buttons and see if your 
reactions to the posting about such issues are in proportion to what is 
actually being discussed. 
 

 Goose and gander type thing. (-:
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 
 
 Bingo. One of the things that I don't think a number of theists or 
quasi-theists or theists-in-denial-that-they're-theists don't get on this 
forum is that what they call atheists barging into an otherwise pleasant 
conversation about God is that this barging in often comes after a few rounds 
of them hurling the word atheist around as if they were saying Nigger! or 
Spawn of Satan or rakshasa. They actually don't *get* that they look down 
on atheists as much as they do, and that this fact pervades their 
speech/writing.

IMO, giving them a little taste of their own medicine at that point is 
well-deserved.  :-)

 




















RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris

2014-05-04 Thread steve.sundur
Jesus Christ, Rick, are you going to propose marriage to the guy, or just 
interview him!
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, rick@... wrote :

 I’m going to read all of his books before even inviting him, and take notes as 
I go along, which I’ll share and discuss with you. Then I’ll carefully compose 
an invitation letter, which I’ll bounce off you also. So it may even be a year 
before the interview happens, if he agrees to one. But I would want it to be 
one that really did justice to the guy.
  
 From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On 
Behalf Of curtisdeltablues@...
Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 8:59 AM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris


  
  
 Hey Rick,

If you follow the threads from Lawson about Sam Harris you will gain some 
insight into Harris' world. In most debates and interviews he has to spend most 
of this time sorting out the misunderstandings about his position caused by 
people quoting people misrepresenting his ideas rather than his actual points 
in his books. Richard even posted a attribution to his book under statements 
from other people misrepresenting his positions, and this is very common all 
over the internet. 

If you get a chance to interview him your ability to state his actual points 
will be a huge rapport builder. And this seems like just an obvious point for 
any interview but controversial guys like him are more prone to people 
misrepresenting their ideas to make them look bad so he is extra touchy about 
this. Just focusing on his actual points that can be challenged for good 
reasons will make your interview a breath of fresh air for him I am sure.
  

 








Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:

2014-05-03 Thread steve.sundur
Jesus Christ, what a little piker you are. My God, if dropping names was a 
means to enlightenment, you've arrived little fella.
 

 Between that, and your list of Bourbons, you've got the spaced covered.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 You are an idiot. 
 
 Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a Chinese term for zazen 
introduced by Rujing, a monk of the Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, 
it is associated with the Soto school.
 
 Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is the largest of the three 
traditional sects of Zen in Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and 
Ōbaku). It emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors, or 
content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream of thoughts, allowing 
them to arise and pass away without interference.
 
 On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... 
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM 
Movement:
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:18 AM
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 

 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 


 
 

 
 
 


 

 


 
 
 

 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 


 
 

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 






 





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:

2014-05-03 Thread steve.sundur
I am happy that you have found a technique that works for you.  Thanks for 
explaining something about it.  

 But I see that you have not lost your ability to tie any comment to your usual 
tirade against MMY, TMO, Bevan Morris etc.
 

 I guess the Shikantaza form of meditation hasn't done much to mitigate the 
adverse effects that seem to have accumulated from your time with TMO.
 

 Keep at it, and maybe you will have a breakthrough.
 

 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 How is this dropping names? I was giving you info on what Shikantaza is since 
you mocked it as being some kind of designer meditation - it has been around 
as part of Buddhist practice for centuries. I think you are taking pot shots at 
it just because I like it and you don't care for me since I am honest about 
what a liar and huckster Marshy was, what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders 
are and how much damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS caused 
under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted suicides, people admitted 
to mental institutions and more are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - 
he was born and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very vocal 
critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences sometime and see how you 
feel afterwards.
 
 
 
 On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... 
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM 
Movement:
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 1:05 P
 
 Jesus Christ,
 what a little piker you are. My God, if dropping names was a
 means to enlightenment, you've arrived little
 fella.
 
 Between that, and your list
 of Bourbons, you've got the spaced
 covered.
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
 mjackson74@... wrote :
 
 You
 are an idiot. 
 
 
 
 Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a
 Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the
 Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated
 with the Soto school.
 
 
 
 Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is
 the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in
 Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It
 emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors,
 or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream
 of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without
 interference.
 
 
 
 On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@...
 steve.sundur@...
 wrote:
 
 
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future
 and the New TM Movement:
 
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
 Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:18 AM
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 . 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 






Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:

2014-05-03 Thread steve.sundur
Michael, why don't you post it.  I mean, really, I'm a little burned out having 
read many of the smoking gun stories that you are certain prove the point of 
how bad is the TMO. 

 My God, the latest expose of the mold in the vent at MUM didn't quite have the 
bang you might have expected.
 

 And then there was the courageous student challenging the teacher about a 
study.  Turns out there were a few pertinent facts left out which may have 
bolstered or weakened the story.  Did you hear that?  Bolstered or weakened the 
story.
 

 But carry on oh Christian Soldier!
 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 not a tirade merely statement of facts - talk to Kyle like I suggest and see 
whats what
 
 On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... 
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM 
Movement:
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:25 PM
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 I am happy
 that you have found a technique that works for you.  Thanks
 for explaining something about it. 
 But I see that you have not lost your ability to
 tie any comment to your usual tirade against MMY, TMO, Bevan
 Morris etc.
 I guess the Shikantaza form
 of meditation hasn't done much to mitigate the adverse
 effects that seem to have accumulated from your time with
 TMO.
 Keep at it, and maybe you
 will have a breakthrough.
 
 ---In
 FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
mjackson74@... wrote
 :
 
 How is this dropping
 names? I was giving you info on what Shikantaza is since you
 mocked it as being some kind of designer
 meditation - it has been around as part of Buddhist
 practice for centuries. I think you are taking pot shots at
 it just because I like it and you don't care for me
 since I am honest about what a liar and huckster Marshy was,
 what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders are and how much
 damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS caused
 under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted
 suicides, people admitted to mental institutions and more
 are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - he was born
 and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very
 vocal critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences
 sometime and see how you feel afterwards.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@...
 steve.sundur@...
 wrote:
 
 
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future
 and the New TM Movement:
 
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
 Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 1:05 P
 
 
 
 Jesus Christ,
 
 what a little piker you are. My God, if dropping names was
 a
 
 means to enlightenment, you've arrived little
 
 fella.
 
 
 
 Between that, and your list
 
 of Bourbons, you've got the spaced
 
 covered.
 
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
 
 mjackson74@... wrote :
 
 
 
 You
 
 are an idiot. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a
 
 Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of
 the
 
 Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is
 associated
 
 with the Soto school.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?)
 is
 
 the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in
 
 Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku).
 It
 
 emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects,
 anchors,
 
 or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the
 stream
 
 of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without
 
 interference.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@...
 
 steve.sundur@...
 
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future
 
 and the New TM Movement:
 
 
 
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
 
 
 Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:18 AM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 . 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




 








Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:

2014-05-03 Thread steve.sundur
Is this the same as heads I win, tails you lose  I mean, many of your 
arguments are fashioned that way I think.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 you are wrong about that some aspects of the practice under certain 
circumstances leads to mental and emotional instability. To say what you are 
saying is to blame the victim - TM is not without side effects
 
 On Sat, 5/3/14, awoelflebater@... mailto:awoelflebater@... awoelflebater@... 
mailto:awoelflebater@... wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM 
Movement:
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:30 PM
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
 mjackson74@... wrote :
 
 How
 is this dropping names? I was giving you info on what
 Shikantaza is since you mocked it as being some kind of
 designer meditation - it has been around as part
 of Buddhist practice for centuries. I think you are taking
 pot shots at it just because I like it and you don't
 care for me since I am honest about what a liar and huckster
 Marshy was, what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders are and
 how much damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS
 caused under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted
 suicides, people admitted to mental institutions and more
 are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - he was born
 and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very
 vocal critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences
 sometime and see how you feel afterwards.
 I still say if you have hundreds
 of thousands of people doing something there are bound to be
 those who end up murdering people, dying, committing or
 attempting to commit suicide, winning the lottery or
 publishing a book. It has to do with statistics and
 probability. To try and pin mental illness or
 psychiatric breakdown primarily on the fact that someone
 rounded or started TM is a bit iffy. I've talked about
 this before with regard to those who go overboard on
 something. Do they go overboard (join Mother Divine, round
 non-stop for 6 months etc.) because they are obsessive or
 unbalanced to begin with or do they become unbalanced
 because they do too much of one thing? I am pretty sure if
 someone were to practice little old TM twice a day for 20
 mins and ended up going stark ravers, they were bonkers to
 begin with.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


 

 




 





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:

2014-05-03 Thread steve.sundur
By all accounts MJ was a very conscientious baker.  I suspect that his leaving 
left a void in the operation for a spell.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote :

 On 5/3/2014 4:25 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:

 Is this the same as heads I win, tails you lose  I mean, many of your 
arguments are fashioned that way I think.

 
 This may have some partial truth to it, because anyone can tell that MJ has 
some mental and emotional instability problems. The question though, is did he 
have these problems before he started TM or as a result of rounding, or as a 
result of his upbringing. Go figure.
 
 Another question is, why don't the people at MUM screen people for these kinds 
of problems? 
 
 Everyone knows that the mental condition and attitude of the cook at a yoga 
camp has a direct effect on the well being of the camp participants. When 
you've got a cook with a negative attitude you are going to have some real 
serious problems. In one case, the bad food almost caused a revolt, according 
to my sources. It's bad enough to have to eat cafeteria food, but it's just an 
insult to get a sarcastic dish washer as well.
 
 Only the most advanced meditators are allowed to even get near the kitchen at 
a Zen Session. 
 
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@... wrote :
 
 you are wrong about that some aspects of the practice under certain 
circumstances leads to mental and emotional instability.

 
 

 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus 
http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
 
 



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:

2014-05-02 Thread steve.sundur
That is true.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote :

 Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there 
is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool.
 

 

 

 Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence 
of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I 
find that I rarely go there.
  
 




















































































Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:

2014-05-02 Thread steve.sundur
I love these things that sound like 'designer', meditations or designer martial 
arts techniques.   

 Our special tonight is shikantaza meditation, which we will do while sitting 
in a modified Cheyenne sweat lodge, which has been purified and smoked with a 
sandalwood reduction incense which has been placed on hexagonal charcoal base 
from a banyan tree in central Tibet.
 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I have 
been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I 
feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss 
starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss 
gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis?
 
 On Fri, 5/2/14, Richard J. Williams punditster@... mailto:punditster@... 
wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM 
Movement:
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 2:36 PM
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On
 5/2/2014 5:12 AM, TurquoiseBee
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 I
 still continue to practice a sitting
 meditation most days
 -- not TM, not mantra-based, but eyes-closed,
 dive-for-deep-samadhi meditation. I do it
 because I enjoy
 it, and after 20 minutes or so I feel
 refreshed and
 experience a clarity that I would possibly
 miss if I
 stopped. It's sorta like I've gone
 back to the first days
 of TM experience -- 20/20 meditation, done
 primarily
 because of its benefits in activity, not done
 for
 itself. Although, to be honest, I often
 don't get in two
 sitting meds per day. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Another 180 - after over fifteen years of telling us
 that meditation
 is a fruitless effort with zero benefits. Go figure.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection
 is active.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:

2014-05-02 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 

 Define more developed or fully developed for me in terms of human 
consciousness. I'll wait.
 

 What happens when people get older and wiser?
 

 Do you think that happens?
 

 I would say it does often happen.  It sure happened to my Dad, and actually 
many if not most older people.
 

 
 

 

 
 

 



 











 













 


 











 


 












 


 













Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris

2014-05-02 Thread steve.sundur

 
 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
 

I guess I'm not that idealistic. I think there are people out there in the 
world who read the news reports about Oklahoma's recent botched execution and 
felt GOOD that the prisoner suffered. 
 

 I'll cop to this. It bothers me, not a drop, that this guy suffered the way he 
did.  In fact, in my cosmology, I think it probably helped mitigate some of 
what he has in store for himself.
 

 I assume you've read the chronology of the execution, and also are familiar 
with the details of the homicide he committed.
 

 The only problem I have with capital punishment, is the fact that some of the 
people are innocent.  Otherwise, I support it.
 

 

 

 I don't see them altering these views in any way as a result of some kind of 
science trying to convince them that there is no free will. 

 
 
  

 

  












 
 
  

 

  














 


 











Re: [FairfieldLife] New York TM teaching is maxed out

2014-04-30 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 

snip
 

 And besides, we have a new generation hungry for anything better than what our 
plastic society offers them, or something to give them an edge. We all wanted 
that at some point, we also all wanted easy answers to life's problems and 
that's what TM promises more than anything else I can think of. Meditate twice 
a day and all your problems disappear! 
 

 Really?  Is that what I wanted?  I started as a teenager, at the behest of 
girlfriend.  It offered some respite for a few minutes a day to a difficult 
adolescence.  I don't recall ever feeling that it was an easy out to life's 
problems.  Nor did I ever present it that way as an teacher of the technique.
 

 Marvellous but demonstrably not true except for a few isolated cases perhaps. 
But I can't laugh because I fell for it myself. Spiritual desire is real and TM 
is a great way of getting the first hit that makes you hungry for more.
 

 
  








Re: [FairfieldLife] New York TM teaching is maxed out

2014-04-30 Thread steve.sundur
Michael, 

 I do enjoy your comments.  You regularly ascribe to the TMO vast power.  It's 
cute actually.  
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 and the organisation itself is a badly run, thinly disguised religious 
dictatorship
 
 Once again Sal, you have nailed it to the wall. The one positive of all these 
new initiations IF they exist is for the deprogrammers who will make a lot of 
money when the innocent victims realize they've been had.
 
 



 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 







Re: [FairfieldLife] New York TM teaching is maxed out

2014-04-30 Thread steve.sundur
I've already reported that in my area activity has increased.  But no, not 
30-40 a day.  Maybe half of that a month. 

 I was responding to Mike's comment that business will be picking up for 
deprogrammers.
 

 Actually, I think Michael would consider that a business opportunity for 
himself.  It seems he always nibbled around the edges of the spiritual game.  
Maybe he'll finally find a workable niche.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mdixon.6569@... wrote :

 So, what kind of numbers are we talking about? I remember the days of teaching 
30-40 people in a day. 
 On Wednesday, April 30, 2014 5:16 AM, steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... 
wrote:
 
   Michael,
 

 I do enjoy your comments.  You regularly ascribe to the TMO vast power.  It's 
cute actually.  
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 and the organisation itself is a badly run, thinly disguised religious 
dictatorship
 
 Once again Sal, you have nailed it to the wall. The one positive of all these 
new initiations IF they exist is for the deprogrammers who will make a lot of 
money when the innocent victims realize they've been had.
 
 



 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 






 


 













[FairfieldLife] Re: New York TM teaching is maxed out

2014-04-30 Thread steve.sundur
My dentist has me going for a cleaning every three months to try to fend off 
further problems.  And since we've discussing looks somewhat, the hygienist, 
Jessica, is about a 10, and when she tells me to turn my head to the left, I 
come face to face with..well, nuff said about that. 

 P.S.  Water pic, flossing, and electric brush are highly recommended IMNSHO. 
(-:
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, s3raphita@... wrote :

 Re  Dentistry is definitely a big for profit enterprise even if they say 
they're not.:
 

 Dentists have the highest rates for suicide of any profession. 
 If I had to spend my life examining decaying teeth and breathing in halitosis 
I'd have checked out long ago.





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:

2014-04-30 Thread steve.sundur
Sounds like a description at a dog show.  Hey, but then would it be best in 
it's class?  Think about that for moment!
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 corporate succession, indeed! As Sal put it so very nicely, the organization 
itself is a badly run, thinly disguised religious dictatorship.
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 








Re: [FairfieldLife] Watch Dav id Lynch’s hy pn oti c new video

2014-04-29 Thread steve.sundur
Not a big DL movie goer. Wild at Heart may be the only one I've seen, but I 
liked it very much.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote :

 My favorite Lynch film is Wild at Heart.  Loved the scene where Willem Defoe 
gets his face blown off and the dog picks it up.
 
 Are there any studies about increased libido with TM?  I know that swinger 
groups exist within the movement.  Maybe goddess mantras also increase libido.
 
 On 04/29/2014 04:42 AM, salyavin808 wrote:
 
   
 
 I never saw the straight story. That was his first movie after coming out of 
the TM closet I believe. I remember them announcing that Lynch was going to be 
promoting TM and I suggested they do a season of his films on the Marshy 
Channel. They thought it was a great idea. 
 
 
 I had to break it to them gently that most of his stuff is a twisted sexual 
nightmare but i still think it would counterbalance the horror of Bevan and the 
Raja's nicely. In fact I originally I thought he might have infiltrated the TMO 
to get some ideas for a particularly odd movie, that would be cool. Then I 
realised he was serious and predicted that he wouldn't make another shocker 
like Blue Velvet to avoid offending the sattvic TB's.
 
 
 Now I think all his surreal stuff since then has been pretentious drivel. 
He's either past it or all that TM has dulled his creativity over the years, 
instead of the opposite which is what he usually claims.
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
sharelong60@... mailto:sharelong60@... wrote :
 
 salyavin, imo Lynch's The Straight Story is also wonderful though very 
different than Elephant Man, but both having an underlying, non sacharine 
sweetness.
 
 
 On Tuesday, April 29, 2014 3:22 AM, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote:
 
   

 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... wrote :
 
 Color me not impressed by either the music or the video. This is the sort of 
stuff my friends in film school were doing in 1969. It's adolescent poseur 
stuff.
 
 
 I didn't get as far as watching the video. I think DL had some good ideas in 
the early days but his stuff seems really lazy now. In inland empire he'd have 
a conversation going on between two characters and someone will walk past in 
the background with a fish mask on. Yeah, it's technically surreal but so what? 
It isn't like he's making any clever points about the human unconscious , it's 
all just art for arts sake.
 
 
 And Mulholland Drive was a wasted opportunity IMO, all those great actors and 
he decided to leave it up to the viewer to decide which bits were real or not 
That sort of laziness makes even Eraserhead feel really shallow to me now.  I 
bet Elephant Man is still good though, but that's about it.
 
 
 Rant over.
 
 
 Penny Dreadful is much better, and it's just television.  :-)
 
 
 Yes. I'm looking forward to that one.
 

 From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 8:34 AM
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Watch Dav id Lynch’s hypnoti c new video
 
 
   --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
LEnglish5@... mailto:LEnglish5@... wrote :
 
 He says uniformly blissful from the very first one.
 

 Would he be such an evangelist if he knew what everyone else experienced?
 

 L
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... wrote :
 
 One wonder if this is what David Lynch's meditations are like?  :-D 
 
 On 04/28/2014 02:12 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote:
 
   Mindy Jones is haunted by Wicker Man-esque masked figures in Moby’s 
‘reversion’ of ‘The Big Dream’ 
 Watch David Lynch’s hypnotic new video
 
 
 
 
 Watch David Lynch’s hypnotic new video Mindy Jones is haunted by Wicker 
Man-esque masked figures in Moby’s ‘reversion’ of ‘The Big Dream’


 
 View on www.dazeddigital.com
 Preview by Yahoo
 

  

 
 









 










 
 









 




Re: [FairfieldLife] Maharishi interview excerpts

2014-04-28 Thread steve.sundur
Barry, 

 I get that you are not into dialogue.  That suits me fine.  But do you realize 
how invested you are into a narrative that seeks to portray anyone who doesn't 
feel as you do, a True Believer?
 

 For example, you have this notion that anyone's take on these questions, other 
than yours has surrendered all faculties of discrimination, and is, by default, 
a True Believer
 

 Anyway, that's your privilege, but you've become sort of the mirror image to 
someone like Nabby, in that you have this knee jerk reaction to find a 
justification for your conclusions even if they don't make a lot of sense.
 

 So, slow down, everything's still here just as you left it a few days ago, for 
King's Day.  Nobody suffered by not having their buttons constantly pushed.  
You don't have to get frantic about it. 
 

 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
  

I repeat my first take on these quotes from Maharishi. Many of them are 
fuckin' Looney Toons. But to people who have been conditioned to see him as 
essentially perfect, they're perfect. And there is nothing that anyone can do 
or say that will convince them that *they're* not the sane ones, and that 
everyone else is *wrong*. In fact, because their egos get *larger* as a result 
of criticism, they'll believe even more strongly than they did before. 

It's just one of those mysteries of being human, I guess. Go figure. Go fuckin' 
figure. 
 

 

 
 
   

 












 


 














Re: [FairfieldLife] The World's Highest Ranking Alien Believer

2014-04-28 Thread steve.sundur
Based on that picture of her, I'd say it's pretty accurate.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :
 
 

 Rather that admit the effects of all those years of cigarettes and seething 
anger, she calls herself “a fairly nice-looking dame.” Yeah…..right…and TM 
“reverses the aging process.”   
 

 http://www.aaskolnick.com/junkyarddog/ http://www.aaskolnick.com/junkyarddog/




[FairfieldLife] Re: Does watching this symbolic wind constitute worship of Vayu?

2014-04-27 Thread steve.sundur
Clicking on the 'Show History Tab' in a conscientious and regular fashion has 
been shown improve the readability and comprehension of posts.  This conclusion 
is the result of numerous experiences among participants on various chat sites 
and is endorsed by the Society of Better Readability on Internet Forums.   

 Not to be confused with the group that endorses stannous fluoride.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 Seems to me placing the attention on a natural phenomenon as one would attend 
the mantra has to be at least as calming as TM.  Dunno.  Just wondering these 
days about how ancient meditation has to be.




[FairfieldLife] Re: Creationists thwart mammoth bid!

2014-04-26 Thread steve.sundur
In his case,  he could care less about the age of the earth.  If you asked him, 
he'd say,I don't give a fuck.  If you pressed him, he'd probably concede that 
6000 years doesn't make any sense.  And that's my point.  Most of those strict 
bible believers, or those who are affiliated with them by default, seem pretty 
bashful about the issue. 

 But since you asked about him, there is basically nothing he can't do electric 
wise.  He's also a volunteer fireman, and has helped save many lives.
 

 He's also is the point man for a high profile construction crew.
 

 And he's a charming fellow.  Sort of the epitome of what you expect from a 
country boy, in the (mostly) positive sense of the world.
 

 Oh, he also traded a gun for a retired Budweiser Clydesdale sometime back.  
 

 Funny story: He invited me down to an auction he was having.  It was just a 
bunch of junk.  But the one thing, the only thing there that interested me was 
a Clydesdale horse shoe he had.  And here I am bidding against some woman, who 
kept raising the bid till I dropped out.  Turns out it was his mother.  I said, 
like really.
 

 

 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 There really needs to be a work around for this issue for those religious 
minded in this regard.  Cognitive dissonance is a bit of an understatement I 
think. 

 I have some customers who belong to strict denominations but are mainstream in 
most other ways.  Boy, do I steer the topic of conversation away from this 
issue, should it ever veer in that direction.
 

 I was invited to a country wedding of such a customer/friend recently.  We had 
a great time.  The groom had his gun tucked in his belt behind his back, and 
the pastor officiating made it a strong point that the earth was only 6000 
years old. She of course was about five months pregnant. It was the second 
marriage for both. (maybe her third)
 

 The dinner served was the crispy chicken that you usually get at gas stations.
 

 This guy is a true country boy and we've been friends for a long time.  And, 
the dude is smart.
 

 Now that is dissonance. Perhaps there should be some definition of smart if 
this is, indeed, the case.
 

 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 

 Bizarre story. It's hard to believe people still actually believe that the 
Earth is only 6,000 years old.That's a lot of cognitive dissonance you'd have 
to be coping with these days. Probably why these maniacs have their own 
natural history museum with humans and dinosaurs cavorting happily together.. 
 

 

 Each to their own POV but it's easier to disprove Biblical creation than it is 
the tooth fairy. Everyone knows there are trees demonstrably older than 6,000 
years. And if the Ark landed in Turkey, why can't you find kangaroos outside of 
Australia? 
 

 I say they should have to prove the Earth is only as old as the Bible says or 
put up with the new state fossil. You can't go around controlling what everyone 
sees by banning anything you disapprove of because your religion tells you 
otherwise! Can you?

 

 

 Creationist Debate Stalls South Carolina State Fossil Bill 
http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html

 
 
 
http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html
 
 Creationist Debate Stalls South Carolina State Fossil Bi... 
http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html
 When 8-year-old Olivia McConnell proposed a state fossil for South Carolina, 
she probably didn't expect her request to prompt a drawn-out fight wi...


 
 View on livescience.com 
http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

 












Re: [FairfieldLife] Creationists thwart mammoth bid!

2014-04-26 Thread steve.sundur
Who could not like Joel Osteen.  Really, a good practical message, especially 
when he stays outside the overtly religious context, and talks about the daily 
issues people face.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote :

 On 4/26/2014 12:23 PM, Michael Jackson wrote:

 in these parts Protestants don't even consider Catholics real and proper 
Christians 
 Joel Scott Osteen is the Senior Pastor of the Lakewood Church, the largest 
Protestant church in the United States, in Houston, Texas. Joel Osteen will be 
at the Alamo Dome tonight at 7:00 PM.
 
 There are lots of Roman Catholics around here too. Go figure.
 
 https://tickets-center.com/Alamodome/ 
https://tickets-center.com/ResultsVenue.aspx?event=Joel+Osteenvname=Alamodomevenid=204ppcsrc=1-HY-TX-Alamo-Joel+Osnid=1cid=40047415745akwd=joel%20osteen%20concert%20ticketsmt=bnetwork=gdist=sadposition=1t1device=cismobile=falsedevicemodel=placement=target=param1=param2=aceid=random=3292295187387678497htx=1gclid=COfZ5u_p_r0CFSdn7Aod1VkAHA
 

 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus 
http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
 
 



[FairfieldLife] Re: Does watching this symbolic wind constitute worship of Vayu?

2014-04-26 Thread steve.sundur
Well, is wind not the same as prana, and there are different pranas at work in 
the body.  I consider the workings of prana to be an unexplored area of 
physiology. 

 Am I off track here?
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 http://hint.fm/wind/ http://hint.fm/wind/

Any representation is, yawlp, a representation.  But this one GETS TO ME.  

 

 It seems, (okay I'm going to say it,) alive.  
 
I'm saying watching the wind symbolically in real time might constitute worship 
of Vayu (or whatever dynamic of the nervous system that is iteratively resonant 
with the values of nature that are symbolized by the concept: Vayu.)

The wind is a phenomenon of nature that's older than life on earth and must 
perforce be something with which ALL sentience is necessarily attuned -- if 
only for the survival benefits.  A very deep DNA code-dynamic must be dedicated 
to managing the individual's awareness of the importance of air/water movement. 
 

I wonder if looking at this Web page triggers or excites or activates communion 
or unity-type experiences..

It's a good bet, methinks, that we're all built from the ground up to be able 
to become more attuned with everything if we but get jiggy with almost any 
universal phenomenon.  Looking at a fire, or candle or ? -- all can be said to 
be a worship of some sort.  

 

 Anyone want to discuss?





[FairfieldLife] Re: Now Playing

2014-04-25 Thread steve.sundur
Bo Diddley was a name I always heard, of course, but really knew nothing about, 
until I play those selections you had below, Richard.  A real nice discovery. 

 In high school I was a mild Grateful Dead fan.  One of my best friends was an 
ardent fan.
 

 But I recall when Jerry Garcia died. feeling a deep loss, and also a renewed 
interest on my part in learning about him.  I have him on a pedestal.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote :

 Excellent post.

I just started studying him seriously this year when I was getting into 
Afro-carribian rhythms. I got his Chess recordings box set and dug in. Rhythm 
king.

Now I include one of his songs in my sets and just lean on the rhythm using the 
guitar as a percussion instrument. Every verse is more hypnotic it is so much 
fun to sing.

Who Do You Love

I walk 47 miles of barbed wire,
I use a cobra-snake for a necktie,
I got a brand new house on the roadside,
Made from rattlesnake hide,
I got a brand new chimney made on top,
Made out of a human skull,
Now come on take a walk with me, arlene,
And tell me, who do you love? 

Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 

Tombstone hand and a graveyard mine,
Just 22 and I don't mind dying.

Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 

I rode around the town, use a rattlesnake whip,
Take it easy arlene, don't give me no lip,

Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 

Night was dark, but the sky was blue,
Down the alley, the ice-wagon flew,
Heard a bump, and somebody screamed,
You should have heard just what I seen.

Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 

Arlene took me by my hand,
And she said oh bo, you know I understand.

Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 
Who do you love? 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote :

 Bo Diddley
 

 If you ask me I'd say that there is nothing, just absolutely nothing, that 
you can do in your whole entire lifetime that will top the level of cool that 
Bo Diddley hit in this performance back in 1965. - Jason McHenry 
 

 Bo Diddley- Live Performance 
 http://youtu.be/IMZjAOoX6nw http://youtu.be/IMZjAOoX6nw
 

 Bo Diddley - 1955 45 RPM recording
 http://youtu.be/8XxGUIbYjmY http://youtu.be/8XxGUIbYjmY
 

 You Can't Judge a Book by the Cover
 http://youtu.be/Lch0o4wwGyw http://youtu.be/Lch0o4wwGyw
 

 One of the founders, if not the founder of rock 'n roll, Bo Diddley invented 
the rock signature beat, a simple five-accent clave driving rhythm. Hard edge 
electric guitar - one of the corner stones of rock. In 2004, Rolling Stone 
ranked him No. 20 on their list of the 100 Greatest Artists of All Time.

 

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Diddley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Diddley








[FairfieldLife] Re: The poetry of motion

2014-04-25 Thread steve.sundur

 WTF?  (-:

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 Pendulum Waves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkdfJ9PkRQ

 
 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkdfJ9PkRQ
 
 Pendulum Waves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkdfJ9PkRQ Fifteen uncoupled 
simple pendulums of monotonically increasing lengths dance together to produce 
visual traveling waves, standing waves, beating, and...


 
 View on youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkdfJ9PkRQ 
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

 





Re: [FairfieldLife] Portia de Rossi Pregnant

2014-04-25 Thread steve.sundur
Well, it is funny to consider that she cheated on her at the invitro clinic.  
Slipping away for those afternoon assignations. 

 Who was he!?
 

 And then pulling out a profile.
 

 I couldn't resist that IQ. It drew me in
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jr_esq@... wrote :

 Michael, 

 I haven't thought of it that way.  But it's possible a male deva could have 
done it.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 Maybe they have a whole bunch of yogic flyers living around them and the 
unbelievable magic of the marshy effect got her immaculately pregnant
 
 On Fri, 4/25/14, jr_esq@... mailto:jr_esq@... jr_esq@... mailto:jr_esq@... 
wrote:
 
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Portia de Rossi Pregnant
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, April 25, 2014, 6:40 PM
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Anything is possible in any marriage
 these days.  Gay or straight.
 
http://www.inquisitr.com/1225474/portia-de-rossi-pregnant-ellen-degeneres-reportedly-considering-divorce-after-baby-shocker/
 
http://www.inquisitr.com/1225474/portia-de-rossi-pregnant-ellen-degeneres-reportedly-considering-divorce-after-baby-shocker/
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 









[FairfieldLife] Re: Creationists thwart mammoth bid!

2014-04-25 Thread steve.sundur
There really needs to be a work around for this issue for those religious 
minded in this regard.  Cognitive dissonance is a bit of an understatement I 
think. 

 I have some customers who belong to strict denominations but are mainstream in 
most other ways.  Boy, do I steer the topic of conversation away from this 
issue, should it ever veer in that direction.
 

 I was invited to a country wedding of such a customer/friend recently.  We had 
a great time.  The groom had his gun tucked in his belt behind his back, and 
the pastor officiating made it a strong point that the earth was only 6000 
years old. She of course was about five months pregnant. It was the second 
marriage for both. (maybe her third)
 

 The dinner served was the crispy chicken that you usually get at gas stations.
 

 This guy is a true country boy and we've been friends for a long time.  And, 
the dude is smart.
 

 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 

 Bizarre story. It's hard to believe people still actually believe that the 
Earth is only 6,000 years old.That's a lot of cognitive dissonance you'd have 
to be coping with these days. Probably why these maniacs have their own 
natural history museum with humans and dinosaurs cavorting happily together.. 
 

 

 Each to their own POV but it's easier to disprove Biblical creation than it is 
the tooth fairy. Everyone knows there are trees demonstrably older than 6,000 
years. And if the Ark landed in Turkey, why can't you find kangaroos outside of 
Australia? 
 

 I say they should have to prove the Earth is only as old as the Bible says or 
put up with the new state fossil. You can't go around controlling what everyone 
sees by banning anything you disapprove of because your religion tells you 
otherwise! Can you?

 

 

 Creationist Debate Stalls South Carolina State Fossil Bill 
http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html

 
 
 
http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html
 
 Creationist Debate Stalls South Carolina State Fossil Bi... 
http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html
 When 8-year-old Olivia McConnell proposed a state fossil for South Carolina, 
she probably didn't expect her request to prompt a drawn-out fight wi...


 
 View on livescience.com 
http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

 







[FairfieldLife] Re: Never underestimate Americans' ability to practice denial

2014-04-22 Thread steve.sundur
I ate at Ruggeri's restaurant regularly as a kid.  My grandparents used to take 
me there.  And like most St. Louisan's, developed a love for toasted ravioli.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 Or their ability to prefer beliefs they're heavily invested in vs. a consensus 
of facts that dispute them...
 

 Staggering Number Of Americans Doubt Accepted Science 
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/21/global-warming-evolution-and-the-big-bang-poll_n_5187624.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

 

 

 Isn't this sort of like that old Yogi Berra saying about eating at Ruggeri's 
restaurant, No one goes there anymore because it's so crowded.?
 

 








Re: [FairfieldLife] Is Classical Theism Really the Strongest Version of the God Idea?

2014-04-22 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 AWhat I don't understand is Bawwy's lack of tolerance for those who chose to 
speak and think and write and contemplate about the existence of God. He simply 
dismisses it all as if he has it all figured out and would never consider any 
other possibility for how this existence is structured. In other words, he has 
closed himself off as if he was deaf, dumb and blind. 
 

 Ann, there doesn't seem to be anyone here who feels the need to proclaim more 
loudly, I Am An Atheist than Barry.  But in practice and belief, he seems 
more a classic theist.  And perhaps this causes him some degree of cognitive 
dissonance. I say this because he seems to believe in an underlying 
intelligence.  (classic theism) He believes in rebirth, and surfing along on 
the Bardo. (standard Buddhist beliefs).  He doesn't want to take a stab at 
explaining how rebirth and the bardo might play out, preferring to use a 
blanket explanation that it plays out automatically, not realizing that 
automatically does not preclude a precise intelligence at work.
 

 But I think the perceived renegade status he gets by stating he is an 
atheist is too hard for him to pass up.  Even if he would be denied card 
carrying status.
 

 The other atheist here, at least seem more comfortable in that belief, (or non 
belief, I guess), and don't feel the need to repeatedly make that declaration.
 

 God Forbid, don't ask him to explain anything.
 

 That said, I do like him.
 

 You see, I do believe there is something akin to God but this is what I have 
come to as a result of living for 57 years and having experienced what I have 
experienced. I will take experience over argument or debate (although these are 
both good things) but it does not seem that I can come to any other conclusion 
based on brilliant yet unprovable theories espoused through dialogue. What I 
know is that life is big, mysterious and extraordinarily beautiful and horrific 
at the same time. However, I think underneath it all lies an infinitely 
embracing love and glorious perfection that virtually no one is privy to while 
we still live and breath here on Earth. 
 

 So, debate away, compare ideas of great and not so great thinkers but I'll be 
out in the field stirring up dandelion fluff or inhaling the dander from some 
horse I'm grooming. Any of these things can bring us all to the same 
conclusions - none of which will be provable and yet the process of trying to 
discover and find out about God or no God is maybe more important than the 
answer.
 
 








 







[FairfieldLife] Re: Never underestimate Americans' ability to practice denial

2014-04-22 Thread steve.sundur


[FairfieldLife] Re: Never underestimate Americans' ability to practice denial

2014-04-22 Thread steve.sundur
No does not exist, at least here in St. Louis.  It used to be on The Hill, 
which is still home to most of the Italian restaurants.  Thinking about it now, 
I can still recall some of the features of the restaurant. And my grandparents 
always sat where the waiter they knew would take care of them. 

 I think the Ruggeri's restaurant moved to Troy, Mo.
 

 The other restaurant we used to go to was Kemolls, which was next to Sportsman 
Park where the Cardinals would play.  That was two stadiums ago.
 

 But I still love toasted ravioli.  The great mystery to me, is why it never 
caught on elsewhere.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 I ate at Ruggeri's restaurant regularly as a kid.  My grandparents used to 
take me there.  And like most St. Louisan's, developed a love for toasted 
ravioli.
 

 That's wonderful that it still exists. Next time I'm in St Louis I'll check it 
out. The last time I was there was while attending MIU and we went on a field 
trip with the art department there. Great city.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 Or their ability to prefer beliefs they're heavily invested in vs. a consensus 
of facts that dispute them...
 

 Staggering Number Of Americans Doubt Accepted Science 
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/21/global-warming-evolution-and-the-big-bang-poll_n_5187624.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

 

 

 Isn't this sort of like that old Yogi Berra saying about eating at Ruggeri's 
restaurant, No one goes there anymore because it's so crowded.?
 

 













[FairfieldLife] Hey Sal, Re: Entities

2014-04-21 Thread steve.sundur
I see what you mean about entities, or components 

 And yes, you are right, introducing rebirth, or reincarnation does necessitate 
entities.
 

 You look at the accounts indicating rebirth and find them lacking.  
 

 I look at the accounts and find many of them credible.
 

 And so, the point I was making at the outset is that if somehow these accounts 
are found to be credible, or if the preponderance of evidence seems to suggest 
such, or if such a time comes when something such as a causal body can be 
measured, then yes, I would say that an atheist would then be required to 
acknowledge that there must be some organizing body or entities at work to 
maintain order in this process..
 

 I am not saying it proves the existence of God.  All I am saying is that it 
might force a door open that an atheist might not be comfortable seeing cracked 
open. 


Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More

2014-04-21 Thread steve.sundur
Hey Michael, 

 Most of what I know about the school comes from the annual publication I get 
listing achievements and donors about and to MUM..  (and yes, I am listed as 
making a small donation)
 

 But as I understand it Craig Pearson is the administrative head of the school. 
 

 Now, whether he takes his orders from the Rajas, or Bevan, or if is able to 
work independently, I don't know.
 

 I do happen to know someone higher up in the school administration and talk to 
him very infrequently.  But the impression I get is that those administrators 
handle to day to day running, without a lot of direct oversight or interference 
from the rajas.
 

 Of course, in the same publication, they also list the trustees of the 
university.  They are many, and very few (if any) are  rajas, IIRC.
 

 So, that may offer a different perspective than the one you are offering.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 an offshoot? What are you smoking? Let's see - the leader of the Movement, 
King-Pin Tony CALLS himself not only a king but the BIG king, he wears robes 
and a big ass gold crown - all the other leaders including Bevan are all robe 
and crown wearers - these asses RUN the Movement - if the rajas aren't in 
charge who is? The fact that you can't accept these guys have become the face 
of the new Movement is indicative of just how deep your denial runs.
 
 On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... 
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 10:12 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 I think
 it's called the World Wide Web.  
 The
 Rajas are just a weird offshoot of the main organization.
  I'm not sure what direct connection the Rajas have
 to academic life.
 As
 for due diligence during the time you were involved in the
 organization and people looking at it now, it's sort of
 like indicting the Collective Papers for being so low on
 Amazon's Book list compared to the guy's book that
 just came out about the murder of his fellow MUM student. A
 lot has changed in thirty years.
 The
 world just doesn't turn exactly the way you want it to
 Michael.  You have to get used to that fact.
  Despite your earnest efforts to defeat the
 organization in every way you can, you may end up being
 frustrated.  
 But
 I'm sure you'll stay at it.  It appears to be
 quite a preoccupation for you.
 And
 really, if truth be told, it seems to have come on heels of
 your other failed spiritual ventures.  Perhaps all that
 frustration got all balled up, and this is now the
 result.
 Just
 sayin'
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
mjackson74@...
 wrote :
 
 You must be
 living with your head in the sand Share - the TMO masks a
 great deal of what it does from the outside observer
 including those who are prospective students. I have told
 the story of how I just a few months ago had a good talk
 with a young man and his mother. The boy was intent on going
 to MUM - they had been to visitors weekend and didn't
 even know anything about the rajas! I had been in the TM
 mindset for 10 years before I went to MIU and I had no idea
 of the stupid crap I would have to put up with while on
 staff - no one does unless they have been on staff or as a
 student. 
 
 
 On Sun, 4/20/14, Share Long sharelong60@...
 wrote:
 
 
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
 
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com;
 FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
 Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 9:28 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 salyavin, in this day and age, however could a person join
 a
 
 utopian cult without realizing it?! Sounds to me like
 
 someone who didn't do their due diligence.
 
 
 
 And if it's really as bad as the blogger claims,
 
 wouldn't he have noticed the trailer park etc. when he
 
 first arrived. Plenty of time to get money back or not
 
 enroll at all. I doubt that the blog is telling his part in
 
 all this.
 
 
 
 The students at MUM now are very different than the
 students
 
 who were at MIU in 1975. Back then many were TM teachers
 and
 
 or had already been meditating for a few years.
 
 Californians! Nowadays they're into David Lynch or
 
 sustainable living or organic food or some combo or these
 
 (-:
 
 
 
 As for me, I'm no longer on the inside and haven't
 
 been for almost 12 years, 7 of which I didn't even go
 to
 
 the Dome. Plus I have constant contact
 
 with my non meditating family so I'm aware of how it
 
 all looks to non meditators. 
 
 
 
 On Sunday, April 20,
 
 2014 3:37 PM, salyavin808 no_re

Re: [FairfieldLife] Hey Sal, Re: Entities

2014-04-21 Thread steve.sundur

 --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
  steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@...
 

 And I'm saying you sound kind of desperate, as if -- as you admit -- forcing 
an imaginary atheist to be uncomfortable is your real goal. 


 

 Well Barry, IIRC, your answer to this possibility was that there are zillions 
of ways this could take place, or something to that effect.  So, I guess that 
is what works for you.  As for the desperate part, I think that is something 
you like to pin on people when a discussion goes past what you consider a 
proper stopping point.  You are the acting police chief in that regard I guess.

In other words, it sounds to me as just *talk* about atheism has been so 
uncomfortable *for you* that you want to make someone else uncomfortable in 
retaliation. 
 

 Well, of course Barry.  That fits your narrative doesn't it. People that are 
critical of some of the things you are say are either:
 

 desperate, cult apologists, or, wait..the grand answer 
-Trying to Sell Me Something.
 

 

If your belief in a God is so strong, why is it so challenged just by someone 
believing something different than you believe?
 

 Oh, Barry, can you ever get out of your rut.  Where did I ever say my belief 
in God was so strong?  I've never said such a thing, and I've separated the 
discussion of reincarnation from the necessity of God.  Are you really unable 
to deviate from your narrative that everyone is trying to sell you something?
 

  You seem to pin almost your *entire* reason for believing in God on your 
desire/need to believe in reincarnation. Great...I get it...you don't want to 
die, and prefer to believe that you won't, and in your view you need a God to 
make that happen. 
 

 Read the discussion Barry. It's not about God.  You, yourself said that there 
is no need to bring in God in explaining reincarnation.  You know, the previous 
life experiences you've talked about many times.  Here's what it is Barry.  It 
is you who are afraid of this possibility.  That' s why you are engaging in 
this shoot the message episode  Be real about it Barry.  Be willing to give 
up your beliefs if need be.  You'll feel liberated.  Didn't someone say that 
the other day?

As I've told you, I don't believe in God, and yet I sorta suspect there is 
something to reincarnation. Millions of Buddhists feel the same way -- they 
believe in reincarnation and don't believe in God. Doncha think you're being 
kinda silly to try to make someone feel uncomfortable just because you can't 
conceive of reincarnation being an automatic process that requires no 
intervention or supervision?
 

 Barry, once you remove the lens that anyone expressing an opinion that you may 
not agree with, is not trying to sell you something, I think discussion will be 
more fruitful.  Until then, I think this is the conclusion you are likely to 
come to.
 

 Anyway, gotta go now.  Thanks for your comments.










Re: [FairfieldLife] Hey Sal, Re: Entities

2014-04-21 Thread steve.sundur
Oh, and  by the way, the whole impetus behind my post was that I didn't 
understand the way sal was using the term entities.  Once he said it was 
comparable to components, it make more sense to me.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 
 --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
  steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@...
 

 And I'm saying you sound kind of desperate, as if -- as you admit -- forcing 
an imaginary atheist to be uncomfortable is your real goal. 


 

 Well Barry, IIRC, your answer to this possibility was that there are zillions 
of ways this could take place, or something to that effect.  So, I guess that 
is what works for you.  As for the desperate part, I think that is something 
you like to pin on people when a discussion goes past what you consider a 
proper stopping point.  You are the acting police chief in that regard I guess.

In other words, it sounds to me as just *talk* about atheism has been so 
uncomfortable *for you* that you want to make someone else uncomfortable in 
retaliation. 
 

 Well, of course Barry.  That fits your narrative doesn't it. People that are 
critical of some of the things you are say are either:
 

 desperate, cult apologists, or, wait..the grand answer 
-Trying to Sell Me Something.
 

 

If your belief in a God is so strong, why is it so challenged just by someone 
believing something different than you believe?
 

 Oh, Barry, can you ever get out of your rut.  Where did I ever say my belief 
in God was so strong?  I've never said such a thing, and I've separated the 
discussion of reincarnation from the necessity of God.  Are you really unable 
to deviate from your narrative that everyone is trying to sell you something?
 

  You seem to pin almost your *entire* reason for believing in God on your 
desire/need to believe in reincarnation. Great...I get it...you don't want to 
die, and prefer to believe that you won't, and in your view you need a God to 
make that happen. 
 

 Read the discussion Barry. It's not about God.  You, yourself said that there 
is no need to bring in God in explaining reincarnation.  You know, the previous 
life experiences you've talked about many times.  Here's what it is Barry.  It 
is you who are afraid of this possibility.  That' s why you are engaging in 
this shoot the message episode  Be real about it Barry.  Be willing to give 
up your beliefs if need be.  You'll feel liberated.  Didn't someone say that 
the other day?

As I've told you, I don't believe in God, and yet I sorta suspect there is 
something to reincarnation. Millions of Buddhists feel the same way -- they 
believe in reincarnation and don't believe in God. Doncha think you're being 
kinda silly to try to make someone feel uncomfortable just because you can't 
conceive of reincarnation being an automatic process that requires no 
intervention or supervision?
 

 Barry, once you remove the lens that anyone expressing an opinion that you may 
not agree with, is not trying to sell you something, I think discussion will be 
more fruitful.  Until then, I think this is the conclusion you are likely to 
come to.
 

 Anyway, gotta go now.  Thanks for your comments.












Re: [FairfieldLife] Hey Sal, Re: Entities

2014-04-21 Thread steve.sundur
And you know what else.  I gotta say that at first blush, your view and 
evidently the view of Buddhism sounds an awful lot like Classical Theism, in 
the broadest sense of word. 

 I'd love to hear you address that.  And no, I am not trying to sell it.
 

 I'd like to know how you see it differing.  Forget about reincarnation.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 Oh, and  by the way, the whole impetus behind my post was that I didn't 
understand the way sal was using the term entities.  Once he said it was 
comparable to components, it make more sense to me.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 
 --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
  steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@...
 

 And I'm saying you sound kind of desperate, as if -- as you admit -- forcing 
an imaginary atheist to be uncomfortable is your real goal. 


 

 Well Barry, IIRC, your answer to this possibility was that there are zillions 
of ways this could take place, or something to that effect.  So, I guess that 
is what works for you.  As for the desperate part, I think that is something 
you like to pin on people when a discussion goes past what you consider a 
proper stopping point.  You are the acting police chief in that regard I guess.

In other words, it sounds to me as just *talk* about atheism has been so 
uncomfortable *for you* that you want to make someone else uncomfortable in 
retaliation. 
 

 Well, of course Barry.  That fits your narrative doesn't it. People that are 
critical of some of the things you are say are either:
 

 desperate, cult apologists, or, wait..the grand answer 
-Trying to Sell Me Something.
 

 

If your belief in a God is so strong, why is it so challenged just by someone 
believing something different than you believe?
 

 Oh, Barry, can you ever get out of your rut.  Where did I ever say my belief 
in God was so strong?  I've never said such a thing, and I've separated the 
discussion of reincarnation from the necessity of God.  Are you really unable 
to deviate from your narrative that everyone is trying to sell you something?
 

  You seem to pin almost your *entire* reason for believing in God on your 
desire/need to believe in reincarnation. Great...I get it...you don't want to 
die, and prefer to believe that you won't, and in your view you need a God to 
make that happen. 
 

 Read the discussion Barry. It's not about God.  You, yourself said that there 
is no need to bring in God in explaining reincarnation.  You know, the previous 
life experiences you've talked about many times.  Here's what it is Barry.  It 
is you who are afraid of this possibility.  That' s why you are engaging in 
this shoot the message episode  Be real about it Barry.  Be willing to give 
up your beliefs if need be.  You'll feel liberated.  Didn't someone say that 
the other day?

As I've told you, I don't believe in God, and yet I sorta suspect there is 
something to reincarnation. Millions of Buddhists feel the same way -- they 
believe in reincarnation and don't believe in God. Doncha think you're being 
kinda silly to try to make someone feel uncomfortable just because you can't 
conceive of reincarnation being an automatic process that requires no 
intervention or supervision?
 

 Barry, once you remove the lens that anyone expressing an opinion that you may 
not agree with, is not trying to sell you something, I think discussion will be 
more fruitful.  Until then, I think this is the conclusion you are likely to 
come to.
 

 Anyway, gotta go now.  Thanks for your comments.















Re: [FairfieldLife] Hey Sal, Re: Entities

2014-04-21 Thread steve.sundur
or anyone for that matter
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 And you know what else.  I gotta say that at first blush, your view and 
evidently the view of Buddhism sounds an awful lot like Classical Theism, in 
the broadest sense of word. 

 I'd love to hear you address that.  And no, I am not trying to sell it.
 

 I'd like to know how you see it differing.  Forget about reincarnation.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 Oh, and  by the way, the whole impetus behind my post was that I didn't 
understand the way sal was using the term entities.  Once he said it was 
comparable to components, it make more sense to me.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 
 --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
  steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@...
 

 And I'm saying you sound kind of desperate, as if -- as you admit -- forcing 
an imaginary atheist to be uncomfortable is your real goal. 


 

 Well Barry, IIRC, your answer to this possibility was that there are zillions 
of ways this could take place, or something to that effect.  So, I guess that 
is what works for you.  As for the desperate part, I think that is something 
you like to pin on people when a discussion goes past what you consider a 
proper stopping point.  You are the acting police chief in that regard I guess.

In other words, it sounds to me as just *talk* about atheism has been so 
uncomfortable *for you* that you want to make someone else uncomfortable in 
retaliation. 
 

 Well, of course Barry.  That fits your narrative doesn't it. People that are 
critical of some of the things you are say are either:
 

 desperate, cult apologists, or, wait..the grand answer 
-Trying to Sell Me Something.
 

 

If your belief in a God is so strong, why is it so challenged just by someone 
believing something different than you believe?
 

 Oh, Barry, can you ever get out of your rut.  Where did I ever say my belief 
in God was so strong?  I've never said such a thing, and I've separated the 
discussion of reincarnation from the necessity of God.  Are you really unable 
to deviate from your narrative that everyone is trying to sell you something?
 

  You seem to pin almost your *entire* reason for believing in God on your 
desire/need to believe in reincarnation. Great...I get it...you don't want to 
die, and prefer to believe that you won't, and in your view you need a God to 
make that happen. 
 

 Read the discussion Barry. It's not about God.  You, yourself said that there 
is no need to bring in God in explaining reincarnation.  You know, the previous 
life experiences you've talked about many times.  Here's what it is Barry.  It 
is you who are afraid of this possibility.  That' s why you are engaging in 
this shoot the message episode  Be real about it Barry.  Be willing to give 
up your beliefs if need be.  You'll feel liberated.  Didn't someone say that 
the other day?

As I've told you, I don't believe in God, and yet I sorta suspect there is 
something to reincarnation. Millions of Buddhists feel the same way -- they 
believe in reincarnation and don't believe in God. Doncha think you're being 
kinda silly to try to make someone feel uncomfortable just because you can't 
conceive of reincarnation being an automatic process that requires no 
intervention or supervision?
 

 Barry, once you remove the lens that anyone expressing an opinion that you may 
not agree with, is not trying to sell you something, I think discussion will be 
more fruitful.  Until then, I think this is the conclusion you are likely to 
come to.
 

 Anyway, gotta go now.  Thanks for your comments.

















Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More

2014-04-21 Thread steve.sundur
Objection your honor.  Answer calls for speculation from the witness. 

 Sustained.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 Well, if there were a disagreement between Big Bopper Bevan and Craig Pearson 
about some aspect of MUM's running, who do you think would win the argument?
 
 On Mon, 4/21/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... 
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Monday, April 21, 2014, 10:26 AM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Hey
 Michael,
 Most
 of what I know about the school comes from the annual
 publication I get listing achievements and donors about and
 to MUM..  (and yes, I am listed as making a small
 donation)
 But
 as I understand it Craig Pearson is the administrative head
 of the school. 
 Now,
 whether he takes his orders from the Rajas, or Bevan, or if
 is able to work independently, I don't
 know.
 I do
 happen to know someone higher up in the school
 administration and talk to him very infrequently.  But
 the impression I get is that those administrators handle to
 day to day running, without a lot of direct oversight or
 interference from the rajas.
 Of
 course, in the same publication, they also list the trustees
 of the university.  They are many, and very few (if
 any) are  rajas, IIRC.
 So,
 that may offer a different perspective than the one you are
 offering.
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
mjackson74@...
 wrote :
 
 an offshoot? What
 are you smoking? Let's see - the leader of the Movement,
 King-Pin Tony CALLS himself not only a king but the BIG
 king, he wears robes and a big ass gold crown - all the
 other leaders including Bevan are all robe and crown wearers
 - these asses RUN the Movement - if the rajas aren't in
 charge who is? The fact that you can't accept these guys
 have become the face of the new Movement is indicative of
 just how deep your denial runs.
 
 
 On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@...
 steve.sundur@...
 wrote:
 
 
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
 
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
 Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 10:12 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 I think
 
 it's called the World Wide Web.  
 
 The
 
 Rajas are just a weird offshoot of the main organization.
 
  I'm not sure what direct connection the Rajas
 have
 
 to academic life.
 
 As
 
 for due diligence during the time you were involved in the
 
 organization and people looking at it now, it's sort of
 
 like indicting the Collective Papers for being so low on
 
 Amazon's Book list compared to the guy's book that
 
 just came out about the murder of his fellow MUM student. A
 
 lot has changed in thirty years.
 
 The
 
 world just doesn't turn exactly the way you want it to
 
 Michael.  You have to get used to that fact.
 
  Despite your earnest efforts to defeat the
 
 organization in every way you can, you may end up being
 
 frustrated.  
 
 But
 
 I'm sure you'll stay at it.  It appears to be
 
 quite a preoccupation for you.
 
 And
 
 really, if truth be told, it seems to have come on heels of
 
 your other failed spiritual ventures.  Perhaps all
 that
 
 frustration got all balled up, and this is now the
 
 result.
 
 Just
 
 sayin'
 
 
 
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
 mjackson74@...
 
 wrote :
 
 
 
 You must be
 
 living with your head in the sand Share - the TMO masks a
 
 great deal of what it does from the outside observer
 
 including those who are prospective students. I have told
 
 the story of how I just a few months ago had a good talk
 
 with a young man and his mother. The boy was intent on
 going
 
 to MUM - they had been to visitors weekend and didn't
 
 even know anything about the rajas! I had been in the TM
 
 mindset for 10 years before I went to MIU and I had no idea
 
 of the stupid crap I would have to put up with while on
 
 staff - no one does unless they have been on staff or as a
 
 student. 
 
 
 
 
 
 On Sun, 4/20/14, Share Long sharelong60@...
 
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
 
 
 
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com;
 
 FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
 
 
 Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 9:28 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 salyavin, in this day and age, however could a person

Re: [FairfieldLife] Hey Sal, Re: Entities

2014-04-21 Thread steve.sundur
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
 
  Doncha think you're being kinda silly to try to make someone feel 
uncomfortable just because you can't conceive of reincarnation being an 
automatic process that requires no intervention or supervision?


I guess I missed this.  I am sorry you feel I am trying to make someone 
uncomfortable because they don't believe as I do.
 

 I think that is an inaccurate assessment.









[FairfieldLife] Re: MIU Photos from the past

2014-04-21 Thread steve.sundur
Canna we please mixa some real chicken broth in the soup?  It woulda make it so 
mucha tastier!
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 Me on the right, Danny VonPhilipsborn on the left, half German, half 
Hungarian. This was when Danny was the baker and I was his apprentice. In the 
parking lot behind the kitchen.






[FairfieldLife] Re: Another MIU shot

2014-04-21 Thread steve.sundur
Michael, you had the movement by the balls when the crew threatened to go on 
strike for the banquet when you got fired.  You had em by the balls.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 The two guys on the left I don't remember - I didn't know them well at the 
time this was taken. Me, Danny and Bob Brady on the far right, a town employee. 
Also in the parking lot behind the kitchen. I am not sure who that is in the 
van peering at us, I bet it was a Capitol spy, checking up on us to see whether 
or not we were talking about satvic stuff.
 

 






Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-20 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 Sal wrote:
 A better question for you to ask would be, why doesn't it happen to everyone 
if reincarnation is a common occurrence? Why to so very few?

 

 Maybe for the same reason we often don't remember our dreams after awakening.  
I mean to answer that aside from something like, the process is set up that 
way, because a recall of that nature could likely disruptive to one's present 
life.  Aside from that, I would say the birth process is a somewhat traumatic 
event, which is followed a tremendous amount of sensory input, as we become 
accustomed to the new world we are born into.  All of that would likely 
overshadow the memory of a previous life.
 

 Seems to me that's the same as it would be if there wasn't any reincarnation. 
The process being set up that way is one of those convenient extra's you need 
to make it work. Who or what set it up? 
 

 And that is why I attempted to answer the question out that context.  I 
understand the implications of that.  
 

 My main questions are, where do the souls come from? There are twice as many 
people as there were 20-odd years ago. Do we get an upgraded animal soul? That 
might explain behaviour at football matches but how did it get started in the 
first place. 
 

 Those are questions for which I do not have an answer.  The best explanations 
I can come up is that the soul of man has developed over the course of earth 
development over eons of time.  This is hypothesis put forth by Rudolf Steiner. 
 It is the one that makes most sense to me, but certainly remains an open 
question.
 

 If there isn't a ready soul when you are born does a new one get made for you? 
  
 

 Again, the best I can do is speculate.  I don't know if the human soul comes 
together from different elements, including those from the plant, animal, and 
mineral worlds,  but that would be my guess.  And that it starts off rather 
primitive and works it's way up from there.  Pure speculation on my part, 
drawing from different accounts I have read.
 

 Finally, how can we measure them? They must be measurable if they control what 
happens in our heads, or even just interact in some/any way.
 

 Well, I am not sure exactly what you mean, but yes, if a soul is the same as a 
causal body, or a subtle body of some sort, it would seem to me to be 
measurable, if we decide to look for it, and have some sort of instrumentation 
to do so.
 

 It always seems to me the essence of a poor theory is when it raises more 
questions than it answers. That isn't denial I'm just waiting to be convinced.
 

 Well, we are talking about things that are not easily measured, and we are not 
talking about the physical universe, so I think you are left with a lot of 
unresolved questions.  Personally, that does not bother me.  It requires a 
different kind of research. One that does not lend itself to scientific 
verification.  On the other hand, I'm not exploring it to try to prove 
anything.  Only for my own understanding.
 

 One of the major stories I know of like that is of a Scottish boy who said he 
came from an island where planes land on the beach. It turns out there is one, 
called Barra. His family claimed there was no way he could have known but even 
when they were being interviewed there was a TV on in the background.
 

 The most recent incident I recall is that of small child (American) recalling 
a memory of being a fighter pilot in WW2, IIRC.  There didn't appear to be any 
mitigating factors such as the type you mention.
 

 Apart from the fact they live in a culture where WW2 is mentioned daily on TV. 
It's hard to be sure about things like this. But I have heard fascinating 
stories, you have to remember that they aren't studied by anyone objective, 
people might have their own reasons for blurring what happened with what they 
want to be true. 
 

 It's a known problem with paranormal research that when faced with with 
something unexpected the imagination can run riot and people create all sorts 
of apparently convincing stories out of meagre data. It's the pattern 
recognition part of our minds that makes 1 + 1 sometimes equal 37.
 

 I'm all for getting scientific about things like this but they are extremely 
rare and so not easy to test. Basically you have to iron out the possibility of 
them picking the information up anywhere else. The plural of anecdote really 
isn't data, I've yet to see a story like this that has reliable facts that are 
certain not to have been isolated from the child. 
 

 These stories appear in the mainstream media periodically, and there are also 
a number of instances that have been documented elsewhere.  I am sorry I can't 
give you a reference for those.  I am sure many of the stories are false, but 
enough of them seem able to survive the scrutiny to which they are subjected.
 

 And like a lot of beliefs

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-20 Thread steve.sundur

 At this point, I am not sure if you are making a declaration about this don't 
try to sell me anything, or you are pleading, even begging people to not try 
to sell you anything. Because its sort of become your calling card, and you 
play it more as a wild card, when anyone says something not in alignment with 
what you might happen to believe.
 

 At least you haven't invoked the feared DNR list in a while.  I guess that's a 
relief. (-:

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the 
reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a 
belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As 
I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief 
until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out 
like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be 
disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would 
never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. 
IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people 
felt similarly about their beliefs.  :-)

 



























Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-20 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 
 Seems to me that knowledge of previous lives would be immensely useful, why do 
we forget it? Why do you think it would be so helpful?  I think it could be 
counter productive.

 

 Putting it in an evolutionary context, the vast majority of people that ever 
lived were hunter gatherers. I think it would be highly useful to automatically 
know how to find water, how to avoid leopards etc. we are born as we are with 
minimal instincts and mental development (compared to other animals) because 
evolution favoured a more sophisticated culture which our brains need to learn 
from our parents. Any extra help would make this so much easier surely?
 

 That doesn't strike me as a very good hypothesis.  I think a support network 
is already in place in terms of our survival skills when we are born because 
our community and family.  That is how knowledge gets passed on. 
 

 The past life theory holds that we are most likely to be born in a different 
time and a different place, so past life memories would be of limited value in 
that way.


 Nowadays, if evolution were known to be true we still had the skill and 
remembered everything we could bury a pot of cash and pick it up in our next 
life. Or get revenge on whoever it was that ran us over thus ending this one. 
You might say it just isn't set up to work like that but you'd just be 
multiplying entities beyond neccessity again. Occams razor. Anyway the burden 
of proof is always on the people with radical ideas so I'll wait until someone 
figures out a way of proving it. But not in denial though.

 
I am not exactly sure what you are saying about entities, but if the past life 
theory is true, then there's either a flaw that we don't have recall of our 
previous lives, or there is just a benefit to starting off fresh.  But if 
evolution is true, then each generation builds on the previous, so when you are 
reborn, you plug into the current progress.  What is the point of carrying a 
lot of unnecessary (outdated) information.  
 

 I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do 
remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an 
island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he 
thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone 
would have a job doubting his story.
 

 Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be 
impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to 
mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. 
 

 I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as 
it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know 
anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed.




























Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-20 Thread steve.sundur
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
 
 
 Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something 
challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the 
water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it.
 

  Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and 
start all over again is the real new start.  

 Amen








 


 











Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-20 Thread steve.sundur
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 Anything one pulls out of memory is past, is past life. Anything one does not 
remember is the same experience as if it were never there. What is the need to 
fine tune what 'sort' of memory it is? Life is now, though it is nice to 
remember now and then.
 

 Of course, day to day, certainly.
 

 But it's also nice to consider the who, where, and whys.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
 
 
   ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
 
 Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the 
reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a 
belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As 
I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief 
until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out 
like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be 
disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would 
never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. 
IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people 
felt similarly about their beliefs.  :-)
 

 I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do 
remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an 
island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he 
thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone 
would have a job doubting his story.
 

 Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be 
impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to 
mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. 
 

 I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as 
it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know 
anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed.

















Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something 
challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the 
water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- 
having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the 
real new start. 









 


 













Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-20 Thread steve.sundur
Well, as you know, there is an easy solution to both those things.
 
But that still was pretty funny.
 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 My declaration is, essentially, What could *possibly* be dumber than 
arguing with people you've never met on the Internet? And the answer to this 
koan, of course, is, Arguing with people on the Internet about shit that can 
never *possibly* be resolved, such as belief in a God.  :-) 

 From: steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@...
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 3:22 PM
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
 
 
 At this point, I am not sure if you are making a declaration about this don't 
try to sell me anything, or you are pleading, even begging people to not try 
to sell you anything. Because its sort of become your calling card, and you 
play it more as a wild card, when anyone says something not in alignment with 
what you might happen to believe.
 

 At least you haven't invoked the feared DNR list in a while.  I guess that's a 
relief. (-:

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the 
reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a 
belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As 
I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief 
until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out 
like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be 
disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would 
never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. 
IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people 
felt similarly about their beliefs.  :-)

 


























 


 











Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-20 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 Putting it in an evolutionary context, the vast majority of people that ever 
lived were hunter gatherers. I think it would be highly useful to automatically 
know how to find water, how to avoid leopards etc. we are born as we are with 
minimal instincts and mental development (compared to other animals) because 
evolution favoured a more sophisticated culture which our brains need to learn 
from our parents. Any extra help would make this so much easier surely?

 

 That doesn't strike me as a very good hypothesis.  I think a support network 
is already in place in terms of our survival skills when we are born because 
our community and family.  That is how knowledge gets passed on. 
 

 It's not a hypothesis, I'm not the one who believes it. I'm trying to disprove 
it by showing how it relies on convenient extra entities to function.
 

 For some reason, I am still not clear on the extra entities.  The theory of 
reincarnation would be that we get reborn with tendencies that can possibly be 
adapted for benefit into our new environment.  The skills that we had 
previously acquired may no longer be useful or necessary.  
 

 And a support network is in place to train us in survival which passes on 
cultural knowledge, you aren't leaving much work for reincarnation to do!
 

 There is always room for further progress right?   New challenges arise, earth 
conditions change all of which will require new skills, right?
 

 Well maybe that's not the goal of rebirth.  Survival,  certainly is a 
necessity, but perhaps a more important goal is to gain knowledge of both a 
material and spiritual sort.  And maybe the two go hand in hand. 
 

 I'm an evolutionist, the first thing I do is try and work out how something 
arrived step-by-step, I'm at a loss with reincarnation. What does the theory 
say is the first animal to get the ability? What is the threshold in conscious 
beings before you do or don't. And given that all life was bacteria for most of 
Earth's history how the hell did it start in the first place. Or am I barking 
up the wrong tree completely?
 

 I don't know how life started.  Okay, all I can come up with is that there was 
a spark of some sort.  I am inclined to think that the human development was on 
a different track than say the extension or evolution of bacteria.  Again, the 
accounts I've read indicate human kind developed from an ethereal form around 
the time earth was formed and went from there.  It is mystery I am clueless 
about.
 

 But as for developing skills, my best guess that it occurs over tens of 
thousands, or hundred of thousands of years.  I don't see where there would be 
in conflict the theory of reincarnation.
 

 The past life theory holds that we are most likely to be born in a different 
time and a different place, so past life memories would be of limited value in 
that way.
 

 See what I mean about convenience? Why is it like that and not people being 
born nearby like our Scottish example was?
 

 I think if you will look at the examples as a whole, you will find that it 
works both ways.  I don't know if Michael would have any insights along these 
lines, but I have read some accounts of people born in the south having strong 
memories of being in the civil war.   So, if one wanted to speculate, I'd say 
there are no hard and fast rules about it.


 Nowadays, if evolution were known to be true we still had the skill and 
remembered everything we could bury a pot of cash and pick it up in our next 
life. Or get revenge on whoever it was that ran us over thus ending this one. 
You might say it just isn't set up to work like that but you'd just be 
multiplying entities beyond neccessity again. Occams razor. Anyway the burden 
of proof is always on the people with radical ideas so I'll wait until someone 
figures out a way of proving it. But not in denial though.

 
I am not exactly sure what you are saying about entities, but if the past life 
theory is true, then there's either a flaw that we don't have recall of our 
previous lives, or there is just a benefit to starting off fresh.  But if 
evolution is true, then each generation builds on the previous, so when you are 
reborn, you plug into the current progress.  What is the point of carrying a 
lot of unnecessary (outdated) information.  
 

 Occams razor is what I mean. The theory of past lives seems to have a lot of 
components (entities) that seem to exist simply to make it harder to explain if 
you try and disprove it. This what I mean about a poor theory raising more 
questions than it answers, the world is a lot easier to explain without it. 
 

 Okay, thank you for clarifying entities.  I guess we look at the same data 
or world, and come to different conclusions.  I have a hard time making sense 
of things without bringing in reincarnation.  Perhaps because I also believe in 
the notion of karma, and that karma must somehow get 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More

2014-04-20 Thread steve.sundur
Well, at least it makes it easy to see why you regard anyone who disagrees with 
you a cult apologist. 

 It looks like the only reason you view this as an excellent essay is because 
it trashes something you don't like. Sort of like what Judy was discussing 
earlier.  There is no issue of fairness or unfairness.  No issue of whether 
there might be another side to it.  It trashes something you like to see 
trashed so therefore it is excellent, and anyone with a dissenting opinion is 
afraid of the truth
 

 Damn you've covered all the bases today Michael!
 

 but can you imagine if you were on the other side of something like this in 
real life?  then I suppose it would be a different story.  But on an internet 
forum, hey, no need to even attempt something approaching a balanced approach. 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 E-cellent essay by a current MUM student - those who aren't afraid of the 
truth, click the link and read on! The photos are quite interesting.

 

 

 http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.html 
http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.html
 
 
 http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.html
 
 MUM Residential Irony http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.html 
A student of Maharishi University of Management, I’m bothered by a few things 
associated with the school.


 
 View on mumosa.com http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.html
 Preview by Yahoo
 

  






Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More

2014-04-20 Thread steve.sundur
Michael, the issue is not whether or not to read your posts.  That is what they 
call a red herring. And you're tactic of labeling everyone with whom you 
disagree as a cult apologist has, frankly, gotten a little old. 

 The issue is whether or not you feel some obligation to take a look at what 
you post and see if it has merit, or how much merit it might have. 
 

 Does that make sense to you?
 

 I say that because the piece you posted from the student about Utopia Park and 
the Pundit housing would come across to most any reader, either in or out of 
the TMO as quite biased.
 

 At least, that's how I see it.
 

 On the other hand, maybe that matters not to you.  As long as it's anti TM, 
it's got to be good.  Like Smucker's Jam.
 

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 
 hey, I lived there when they had the pods - I bet I would have loved one-a 
those double wides in those days. I do like the juxtaposition of the pundits 
living quarters that look like the photos of the old Nazi stalags next to the 
Utopia Park - and the man raises some fair points, which you who are still 
seemingly attempting to find a reason to find something wonderful is happening 
in the TM world don't much like. If you find my posts so unpleasant why read 
'em?
 
 On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... 
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
 
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 5:13 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Well, at
 least it makes it easy to see why you regard anyone who
 disagrees with you a cult apologist.
 It
 looks like the only reason you view this as an excellent
 essay is because it trashes something you don't like.
 Sort of like what Judy was discussing earlier.  There
 is no issue of fairness or unfairness.  No issue of
 whether there might be another side to it.  It trashes
 something you like to see trashed so therefore it is
 excellent, and anyone with a dissenting opinion is
 afraid of the truth
 Damn
 you've covered all the bases today
 Michael!
 but
 can you imagine if you were on the other side of something
 like this in real life?  then I suppose it would be a
 different story.  But on an internet forum, hey, no
 need to even attempt something approaching a balanced
 approach. 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
mjackson74@...
 wrote :
 
 E-cellent essay by a
 current MUM student - those who aren't afraid of the
 truth, click the link and read on! The photos are quite
 interesting.
 
 
 http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.htmlMUM 
http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.htmlMUM
 Residential IronyA
 student of Maharishi University of Management, I’m
 bothered by a few things associated with the
 school.View
 on mumosa.comPreview
 by
 Yahoo
   





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More

2014-04-20 Thread steve.sundur

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 Well one could say you are knee jerk reacting, or that you are pot calling 
kettle black, or one could say you just dislike anything I say since I don't 
fawn all over Marshy and Company.
 
No Michael, as I've said before, I think many of your criticism of the 
organization are right on target.
 
 I mean, do you not see Buck and Nabby's posts as being extrmly biased? 
Nope, since they love to love all things TM.
 

 Really Michael, of course they are highly biased, and impervious to any thing 
that goes against their beliefs. That said, I am fond of both of them, but I am 
not expecting anything new from anything they post.  I think you bring 
something refreshing to the group, for that matter.
 
 And I do not, not have I ever labeled everyone who disagrees with me as a cult 
apologist. Ann disagrees with me from time to time and I don't call her that. I 
get the very occasional appreciation from Judy for correcting some minor 
technical mistake I have made, tho most of her posts she comes across like a 
pack of yapping chihuahuas - frenetically yapping at anything and everything 
just to hear themselves yapping. Barry has disagreed with me sometimes and I 
have never called or labeled him a cult apologist.
 

 Sorry, if I jumped to a wrong conclusion.
 
 So you are getting tired of something that exists ONLY IN YOUR OWN HEAD. I 
expect that all the corners of your awareness that harbor still a slavish 
addiction to Marshy and his bogus teachings get agitated when they read my 
posts. Again, when you are ready to take on ultimate freedom, just let me know 
and I will hep you set yourself free. And unlike the TMO, I won't charge you 
nothin'. Now how do you like that?
 

 Thank you for the offer Michael.  Yes, I have plenty of issues to work on.  
When I get around to that one, I'd be glad to take you up on it.
 
 On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... 
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 8:59 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Michael, the
 issue is not whether or not to read your posts.  That
 is what they call a red herring. And you're tactic of
 labeling everyone with whom you disagree as a cult
 apologist has, frankly, gotten a little
 old.
 The
 issue is whether or not you feel some obligation to take a
 look at what you post and see if it has merit, or how much
 merit it might have. 
 Does
 that make sense to you?
 I
 say that because the piece you posted from the student about
 Utopia Park and the Pundit housing would come across to most
 any reader, either in or out of the TMO as quite
 biased.
 At
 least, that's how I see it.
 On
 the other hand, maybe that matters not to you.  As long
 as it's anti TM, it's got to be good.  Like
 Smucker's Jam.
 ---In
 FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
mjackson74@... wrote
 :
 
 hey, I lived
 there when they had the pods - I bet I would have loved
 one-a those double wides in those days. I do like the
 juxtaposition of the pundits living quarters that look like
 the photos of the old Nazi stalags next to the Utopia
 Park - and the man raises some fair points, which you
 who are still seemingly attempting to find a reason to find
 something wonderful is happening in the TM world don't
 much like. If you find my posts so unpleasant why read
 'em?
 
 
 On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@...
 steve.sundur@...
 wrote:
 
 
 
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
 
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
 Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 5:13 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Well, at
 
 least it makes it easy to see why you regard anyone who
 
 disagrees with you a cult apologist.
 
 It
 
 looks like the only reason you view this as an excellent
 
 essay is because it trashes something you don't like.
 
 Sort of like what Judy was discussing earlier.  There
 
 is no issue of fairness or unfairness.  No issue of
 
 whether there might be another side to it.  It trashes
 
 something you like to see trashed so therefore it is
 
 excellent, and anyone with a dissenting opinion is
 
 afraid of the truth
 
 Damn
 
 you've covered all the bases today
 
 Michael!
 
 but
 
 can you imagine if you were on the other side of something
 
 like this in real life?  then I suppose it would be a
 
 different story.  But on an internet forum, hey, no
 
 need to even attempt something approaching a balanced
 
 approach. 
 
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
 mjackson74@...
 
 wrote :
 
 
 
 E-cellent essay

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More

2014-04-20 Thread steve.sundur
Well that does help Michael, at least in understanding where you are coming 
from.  If you view that student's essay as both excellent, and as an an 
embodiment of truth, then I think are taking a kool aid of a different sort. 

 I would say it implies you have a pretty low threshold for you would consider 
unbiased reporting.
 

 Obviously you don't see it that way.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 Oh and it was one of the most ridiculous post you have ever made, this one. Of 
course I think what I post here has merit, why else would I post?
 
 On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... 
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 8:59 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Michael, the
 issue is not whether or not to read your posts.  That
 is what they call a red herring. And you're tactic of
 labeling everyone with whom you disagree as a cult
 apologist has, frankly, gotten a little
 old.
 The
 issue is whether or not you feel some obligation to take a
 look at what you post and see if it has merit, or how much
 merit it might have. 
 Does
 that make sense to you?
 I
 say that because the piece you posted from the student about
 Utopia Park and the Pundit housing would come across to most
 any reader, either in or out of the TMO as quite
 biased.
 At
 least, that's how I see it.
 On
 the other hand, maybe that matters not to you.  As long
 as it's anti TM, it's got to be good.  Like
 Smucker's Jam.
 ---In
 FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
mjackson74@... wrote
 :
 
 hey, I lived there
 when they had the pods - I bet I would have loved one-a
 those double wides in those days. I do like the
 juxtaposition of the pundits living quarters that look like
 the photos of the old Nazi stalags next to the Utopia
 Park - and the man raises some fair points, which you
 who are still seemingly attempting to find a reason to find
 something wonderful is happening in the TM world don't
 much like. If you find my posts so unpleasant why read
 'em?
 
 
 On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@...
 steve.sundur@...
 wrote:
 
 
 
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
 
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
 Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 5:13 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Well, at
 
 least it makes it easy to see why you regard anyone who
 
 disagrees with you a cult apologist.
 
 It
 
 looks like the only reason you view this as an excellent
 
 essay is because it trashes something you don't like.
 
 Sort of like what Judy was discussing earlier.  There
 
 is no issue of fairness or unfairness.  No issue of
 
 whether there might be another side to it.  It trashes
 
 something you like to see trashed so therefore it is
 
 excellent, and anyone with a dissenting opinion is
 
 afraid of the truth
 
 Damn
 
 you've covered all the bases today
 
 Michael!
 
 but
 
 can you imagine if you were on the other side of something
 
 like this in real life?  then I suppose it would be a
 
 different story.  But on an internet forum, hey, no
 
 need to even attempt something approaching a balanced
 
 approach. 
 
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
 mjackson74@...
 
 wrote :
 
 
 
 E-cellent essay by a
 
 current MUM student - those who aren't afraid of the
 
 truth, click the link and read on! The photos are quite
 
 interesting.
 
 
 
 
 
 http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.htmlMUM 
http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.htmlMUM
 
 Residential IronyA
 
 student of Maharishi University of Management, I’m
 
 bothered by a few things associated with the
 
 school.View
 
 on mumosa.comPreview
 
 by
 
 Yahoo
 
   




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More

2014-04-20 Thread steve.sundur
I think it's called the World Wide Web.   

 The Rajas are just a weird offshoot of the main organization.  I'm not sure 
what direct connection the Rajas have to academic life.
 

 As for due diligence during the time you were involved in the organization and 
people looking at it now, it's sort of like indicting the Collective Papers for 
being so low on Amazon's Book list compared to the guy's book that just came 
out about the murder of his fellow MUM student. A lot has changed in thirty 
years.
 

 The world just doesn't turn exactly the way you want it to Michael.  You have 
to get used to that fact.  Despite your earnest efforts to defeat the 
organization in every way you can, you may end up being frustrated.  
 

 But I'm sure you'll stay at it.  It appears to be quite a preoccupation for 
you.
 

 And really, if truth be told, it seems to have come on heels of your other 
failed spiritual ventures.  Perhaps all that frustration got all balled up, and 
this is now the result.
 

 Just sayin'
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 You must be living with your head in the sand Share - the TMO masks a great 
deal of what it does from the outside observer including those who are 
prospective students. I have told the story of how I just a few months ago had 
a good talk with a young man and his mother. The boy was intent on going to MUM 
- they had been to visitors weekend and didn't even know anything about the 
rajas! I had been in the TM mindset for 10 years before I went to MIU and I had 
no idea of the stupid crap I would have to put up with while on staff - no one 
does unless they have been on staff or as a student. 
 
 On Sun, 4/20/14, Share Long sharelong60@... mailto:sharelong60@... wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com; 
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 9:28 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 salyavin, in this day and age, however could a person join a
 utopian cult without realizing it?! Sounds to me like
 someone who didn't do their due diligence.
 
 And if it's really as bad as the blogger claims,
 wouldn't he have noticed the trailer park etc. when he
 first arrived. Plenty of time to get money back or not
 enroll at all. I doubt that the blog is telling his part in
 all this.
 
 The students at MUM now are very different than the students
 who were at MIU in 1975. Back then many were TM teachers and
 or had already been meditating for a few years.
 Californians! Nowadays they're into David Lynch or
 sustainable living or organic food or some combo or these
 (-:
 
 As for me, I'm no longer on the inside and haven't
 been for almost 12 years, 7 of which I didn't even go to
 the Dome. Plus I have constant contact
 with my non meditating family so I'm aware of how it
 all looks to non meditators. 
 
 On Sunday, April 20,
 2014 3:37 PM, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 wrote:
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
 sharelong60@... wrote :
 
 Well salyavin, in all my years here,
 we've only had one earthquake and it's epicenter was
 over in Illinois across the Mighty Mississip, a river which
 supposedly has a fault line running down it.
 
 I'll have to ask some
 vastu dwellers about the homeowners insurance.
 
 PS btw, speaking of good
 questions, I think mine is a good question too: if this
 blogger is so unhappy with MUM, why does he continue being a
 student there?! 
 As I said, he probably
 has his money invested in it, be hard to change to another
 one without losing any downpayments or even just getting on
 another course at this stage without starting
 again.
 Maybe he's
 got a lot of anger at finding out that he joined a
 utopianist cult without realising it? I've never been to
 FF or MUM but I know how the movement works and let's
 face it, the TMO is more than a bit weird. You may not think
 so as you are on the inside but the TM worldview is unusual
 and takes some getting used to for anyone. If you
 steadfastly refuse to adopt it then you will be unhappy. Is
 it possible to just go to MUM and not notice what everyone
 else believes? 




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More

2014-04-20 Thread steve.sundur

 You can raise that up the flagpole, but I don't know if anyone will salute.

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 Rajas are central to Maharishi's organization, They are great people who are 
putting their time and wealth to accomplishing his goals for the world as 
whole. The way they dress is a sign of their commitment to his vision. It isn't 
any weirder than the traditional cap and gown of a university or any other kind 
of drag including standard business garb, which shows commitment to profit.



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-19 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
 
 With all due respect, Steve, you seem to have been infected with 
JudyRobinitis, and expect me to argue with you just because you want to argue. 
I posted what I had to say, you had the opportunity to post what you had to say 
in response, and you did so. I even answered once. I don't see that I owe you 
anything more as follow up, just because you want to turn it into some mock 
debate that you feel you can win. 































If you have more to say, say it. The fact that you weren't able to put 
everything you wanted to say into your first reply post does not obligate me to 
get involved in a longer series of posts with you. Frankly, whenever someone 
does, you tend to just repeat yourself, rather than introducing anything new. 
I'd rather skip that part and stand on what I said originally. If you don't 
like what I said or disagree with it, feel free to post more about that to your 
heart's content. That doesn't require me to participate. 

It is not problem Barry.  I am only doing what you are doing - putting 
something out there.  I do not care if you reply or not.
 

 I am sorry you interpret it as if am trying to engage you, or have some 
expectation that you need to reply.
 

 I think you may have developed some hyper sensitivity in that area.
 

 BTW, I was expecting the comparison to Judy to come up at some point.  Now, 
throwing   in Robin, well that was a little unexpected. (-:









Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does TM seem to focus on losers?

2014-04-19 Thread steve.sundur
Michael, I don't know if I was so much a true believer in that I surrendered 
all my analytical skills. Yes, I believed in the message, and  spread it pretty 
effectively I think. That is to say the basic technique of TM.   

 Perhaps, like many, I was searching for something more back in the day, and 
TM seemed to be the answer for that.  And so, I became a teacher and graduated 
from MIU.
 

 Throughout that time, there were aspects of the organization that I found 
ridged and a bit misguided and so it lost some of its charm for me.  But there 
was no single event that caused me to become disillusioned.  In fact I've 
mentioned that after I graduated in 1981, I continued to do group program until 
the time I got married and had a child.
 

 And now, I feel as though that spiritual journey has entered a different 
phase.  As far as my mediation, I still do that after work before I come home, 
or after dinner when I feel a need.  I find it relaxing, although I don't do it 
in the context of a spiritual technique, if that makes any sense.
 

 And again, I feel the spiritual path is what makes life meaningful, but that 
path take on many forms.  My wife is a pretty devout Catholic, and I think she 
has been served well by her adherence to that practice.
 

 Thanks for the inquiry.
 

 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 Steve, I may be wrong but didn't you recently allude to you being a real true 
believer at one time who became disillusioned with certain things about TM or 
at least with the TMO? Would you mind telling what aspects you became 
disillusioned with and what aspects you are still alright with?
 
 On Sat, 4/19/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... 
mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:
 
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does TM seem to focus on losers?
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Saturday, April 19, 2014, 1:49 AM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ---In
 FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
turquoiseb@... wrote
 :
 
 And *this* gets
 me to thinking about whether Maharishi always pitched TM to
 losers and people with problems and low self esteem because
 they become the best disciples. And *disciples* is what he
 was looking for.
 Or is it possible that for whatever reason the
 generation that responded most strongly to Maharishi's
 message was a generation that was searching for something
 different.  Is it possible that this may have been a
 reason, or do you prefer just to go with the low self
 esteem, loser
 scenario. 
 And is it possible that somehow you have gotten
 more jaded in your outlook on life such that everything to
 do with TM, at least, gets reduced to the worst possible
 interpretation.
 This is after all an organization that you left
 more than 40 years ago, and yet you are one of the most
 active participants in a forum which has this organization
 as it's focus.
 I don't know if the TB experiment you allude
 to regularly really makes
 sense.
 You appear to have a pretty big investment in
 anything, and everything
 TM.
 Am I wrong about
 that?
 
 
 
 
 Think about it. Does the TMO really spend
 any energy trying to market TM to regular
 people, who have few problems in life and are just
 looking to enjoy it more? They do not. They focus on People
 With Problems.
 
 Kids doing badly in school. Criminals locked
 away in prisons. Veterans with PTSD. 
 
 Can't this be seen as a continuation of
 a long-standing trend to look for prospective new students
 among populations who are more likely to be easy to convert
 into True Believers and thus become disciples? 
 
 It's just an idea. YMMV. 
 
   






Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-19 Thread steve.sundur
And that is why I replied to Barry's request.  But then I was accused of 
pestering him to reply to me. 

 But yes Richard, that is the issue that I think atheists don't want to go 
near.  
 

 They are better off staying in full denial, and passing off incidents that 
defy an easy explanation as just some sort of weird coincidence.  Science 
works in mysterious ways  or at least there is some scientific explanation for 
this or that occurrence, but the science has not progressed sufficiently to 
explain it.  
 

 We'll wait.
 

 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote :

 On 4/18/2014 9:43 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:

 
 To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up 
and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. 
 Because, it will help you understand karma and reincarnation and what it is 
that reincarnates and what reaps the karma?
 

 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus 
http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
 
 




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-19 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 And that is why I replied to Barry's request.  But then I was accused of 
pestering him to reply to me. 

 But yes Richard, that is the issue that I think atheists don't want to go 
near.  
 

 They are better off staying in full denial, and passing off incidents that 
defy an easy explanation as just some sort of weird coincidence.  Science 
works in mysterious ways  or at least there is some scientific explanation for 
this or that occurrence, but the science has not progressed sufficiently to 
explain it.  
 

 Denial about what? 
 

 Denial that we come into this world not as a blank slate, but with tendencies 
and predispositions that shape our lifetime.
 

 Who passes off things as a weird coincidence? 

 

 How do we explain things like a child being obsessed with events that took 
place before he was  born, and knowing details about such events when he has 
had no exposure to them.
 

 How does something like that occur?
 


 So what if not everything can be explained NOW. Does that mean we should chuck 
out what we have worked out?

 

 No, but what I am saying is that there are things that don't appear to be 
within the purview of science to explain, at least anytime soon.  And so, if we 
want to understand them, we need to work out some theory.  And the theory that 
I have worked out in my mind, is that we have been here before, and the 
before shapes our experiences now.  
 

 Now for the record, this may not be anything that needs to be known for our 
daily  goings on,  but they are entomological questions that we all think about 
to one degree or another. or at least I do.
 

 We'll wait.
 

 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote :

 On 4/18/2014 9:43 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote:

 
 To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up 
and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. 
 Because, it will help you understand karma and reincarnation and what it is 
that reincarnates and what reaps the karma?
 

 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus 
http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
 
 








Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-19 Thread steve.sundur
Sal wrote:
 A better question for you to ask would be, why doesn't it happen to everyone 
if reincarnation is a common occurrence? Why to so very few?

 

 Maybe for the same reason we often don't remember our dreams after awakening.  
I mean to answer that aside from something like, the process is set up that 
way, because a recall of that nature could likely disruptive to one's present 
life.  Aside from that, I would say the birth process is a somewhat traumatic 
event, which is followed a tremendous amount of sensory input, as we become 
accustomed to the new world we are born into.  All of that would likely 
overshadow the memory of a previous life.
 

 One of the major stories I know of like that is of a Scottish boy who said he 
came from an island where planes land on the beach. It turns out there is one, 
called Barra. His family claimed there was no way he could have known but even 
when they were being interviewed there was a TV on in the background.
 

 The most recent incident I recall is that of small child (American) recalling 
a memory of being a fighter pilot in WW2, IIRC.  There didn't appear to be any 
mitigating factors such as the type you mention.
 

 I'm all for getting scientific about things like this but they are extremely 
rare and so not easy to test. Basically you have to iron out the possibility of 
them picking the information up anywhere else. The plural of anecdote really 
isn't data, I've yet to see a story like this that has reliable facts that are 
certain not to have been isolated from the child. 
 

 These stories appear in the mainstream media periodically, and there are also 
a number of instances that have been documented elsewhere.  I am sorry I can't 
give you a reference for those.  I am sure many of the stories are false, but 
enough of them seem able to survive the scrutiny to which they are subjected.
 

 And like a lot of beliefs about the mind it lacks any known mechanism about 
how it might work, which doesn't mean it can't but it would also have to 
explain why it works so rarely. Tricky for something physical. If that's what 
it is. Everyone dreams for instance.
 

 I imagine that it would be anomalies such a these that might be able to 
puncture a hole in belief that these things are just a fabrication of the mind. 
 Certainly I recommend subjecting these accounts to a rigorous examination.
 

 Seems to me that knowledge of previous lives would be immensely useful, why do 
we forget it?
 

 Why do you think it would be so helpful?  I think it could be counter 
productive.
 

 If it is the case that there is rebirth, I think there is something to be said 
for a fresh start. (-:
 


 
 












[FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-18 Thread steve.sundur
Probably not what you are looking for, but what I've observed from the 
atheists, at least on this forum is that they are more comfortable keeping the 
discussion on highly abstract issues.  Issues that can't really be resolved one 
way or the other, or at least kept on a bit of solid ground. 

 For example, does the belief in atheism necessitate the tabla rasa theory that 
we are born with a blank slate?  Do the atheists believe that when we die, it 
all goes to black.
 

 You can always say, we have no evidence.', but I'd like to know if it's 
what they believe.
 

 I ask that because there are many instances that would contradict these two 
assumptions.
 

 And sometimes when pressed, you will hear the atheist reply with, there is so 
much we don't know about genetics, or there is so much we don't know about 
how the brain works, which sounds a lot like, God works in mysterious way.  
Now , the God works in mysterious ways doesn't do it for me either, but 
neither does the genetics things, or the brain thing, at least as it is often 
used here.  
 

 Often just a lame default, I think,.
 

 So, that would be my take on the issue.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 Sometimes I look at the way that believers react to the word atheist -- 
spitting it out as if it were an epithet -- and find it a curious reaction. I 
mean, with the exception of a vocal few who make their livings by poking 
theists just to watch them react, I don't see most everyday atheists (and I 
know quite a few, living where I live) reacting to believers in the same 
fashion. Unless the believers are trying to sell the atheists their beliefs, 
that is. Then all bets are off and the atheists can react to the proselytizing 
believers however they wish. 

Anyway, it's like the believers perceive the atheists as a *threat*, and as if 
by believing what they do and spit daring to say it aloud or write it 
somewhere they are trying to *take* something from them. 

I don't get this. *What*, after all, could an atheist take from a believer in 
God? They've got all they need by believing that there is someone/something IN 
CHARGE, and that there is a PLAN for all of this, right? So why are they so 
antagonistic towards a few vocal atheists speaking their minds and suggesting 
that no one is in charge and that there is no plan?

To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up 
and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. Such that you would miss 
them and feel something had been taken from you if you no longer believed?

What would such BENEFITS be? 

Surely you can name a few. 



 







[FairfieldLife] Re: Reposted just because it seems folks need a reminder

2014-04-18 Thread steve.sundur
this should be posted periodically along with the terms post
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 Something to bear in mind while reading Fairfield Life. Or anything else, for 
that matter. The pasted-in graphic below may not expand properly, so if it 
doesn't, use the link:

 

 
http://infobeautiful3.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/02/iib_rhetological_fallacies_EN.png
 
http://infobeautiful3.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/02/iib_rhetological_fallacies_EN.png

 

 
 






Re: [FairfieldLife] Why does TM seem to focus on losers?

2014-04-18 Thread steve.sundur
When I started I was a little mixed up.  Hormones were raging, doing some 
drugs, generally confused.  TM offered some respite, a little tranquility. 

 In my case, my participation was also intertwined with a girlfriend.
 

 Later it did become something else, a spiritual path, at least for quite a 
spell,  But it did launch me in that direction even if now my focus has changed 
somewhat.
 

 Now my son is going through many of those same issues.
 

 In his case, I wish he could find something, but I have to let him sort it 
out, and offer some guidance when he periodically asks me for some.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 You are right. In the early days of my TM junkie phase, I tried and tried to 
get my best friend from high school to do TM. He refused over and over. His 
reason? Jackson, I don't need it. I'm already happy. He went on to have a 
career in textile manufacturing and eventually became a purchaser for the 
Komatsu Corporation. Got married, raised to great kids and is still happy 
today. I couldn't argue with his reasoning them and I thank God today I was not 
able to convince him to join the Marshy sez cult.
 
 On Fri, 4/18/14, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... wrote:
 
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Why does TM seem to focus on losers?
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com; 
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, April 18, 2014, 8:32 AM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 One of the things I've noticed over the years is
 how many long-term TMers say things like, I'd be
 dead if it weren't for TM, or TM saved my
 life, or TM cured me of my
 depression/anxiety/suicidal thoughts/mental
 illness/whatever. 
 
 I've always found these claims difficult to
 relate to, because I didn't have anything to
 cure or get over when I first
 started TM. I had already left drugs behind me, having
 discovered them back when LSD was still legal and came in a
 bottle with Sandoz on the label. I did my time with them,
 enjoyed them *not* because they were an escape from my
 problems but because they enhanced an
 already-enjoyable life. But then I got tired of them, and
 even more tired of the scene surrounding them, and left them
 behind. I'm probably one of the only people here who
 didn't have to wait 15 days before starting TM.
 :-)  I was also neither depressed nor suicidal. In
 fact, I was a pretty happy frood, and merely one who was
 looking for ways to become even happier.
 
 And for a time, TM presented what I was looking for,
 something to enhance a good life and help me to appreciate
 it even more. But then it became as boring and as stagnant
 as drugs had been, and with an even more stifling social
 scene, so I moved on again to other forms of meditation that
 worked better.
 
 But there seem to be any
 number of long-term TMers who don't look back on their
 TM experience this way. They seem to focus on what it
 enabled them to get over or cure or
 get beyond, almost as if
 (almost) before TM they had been broken and TM
 had fixed them. 
 
 This gets me
 to thinking about tent revival meetings in the South (which,
 of course, you can't help but attend a few of if you
 grow up in the South), in which the most fervent
 believers and most fundamentalist Bible-thumpers
 were ALL those who formerly were drunks or whores or thieves
 or something BAD. It's as if they don't feel they
 can adequately shout I've been SAVED! unless
 they feel they had a lot to be saved FROM.
 
 And *this* gets me
 to thinking about whether Maharishi always pitched TM to
 losers and people with problems and low self esteem because
 they become the best disciples. And *disciples* is what he
 was looking for.
 
 Think about it.
 Does the TMO really spend any energy trying to market TM to
 regular
 people, who have few problems in life and are just
 looking to enjoy it more? They do not. They focus on People
 With Problems.
 
 Kids doing badly in
 school. Criminals locked away in prisons. Veterans with
 PTSD. 
 
 Can't this be seen as a
 continuation of a long-standing trend to look for
 prospective new students among populations who are more
 likely to be easy to convert into True Believers and thus
 become disciples? 
 
 It's just an idea.
 YMMV. 
 
   






Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-18 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 From: steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@...
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 2:04 PM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
 

   Probably not what you are looking for, but what I've observed from the 
atheists, at least on this forum is that they are more comfortable keeping the 
discussion on highly abstract issues.  Issues that can't really be resolved one 
way or the other, or at least kept on a bit of solid ground.
 I don't agree with your premise, Steve, but I shall reply because the reggae 
soundtrack is still playing and I feel like it. NOTHING could fit better into 
the description can't really be resolved one way or another than the 
existence of God. What I've railed against is trying to derail that discussion 
into nitpicking about what exactly one considers God to be.
 

 Ok, I feel duly honored that you have replied.  Is that sufficient?  Certainly 
no one wants to get caught up in nitpicking.  That's why I choose not to 
participate in these discussions generally.  You seemed to be asking genuinely, 
that' why I've replied.


 For example, does the belief in atheism necessitate the tabla rasa theory that 
we are born with a blank slate?  Do the atheists believe that when we die, it 
all goes to black.

I cannot presume to speak for all atheists, and do not. Me, I see no conflict 
whatsoever between believing in reincarnation and karma and being an atheist. 
Apples and oranges. No God is required to facilitate recycling. 

 

 And I am not saying that it does necessitate a belief in God, but it does 
raise a number of interesting questions that I've observed give atheists some 
discomfort.  I don't have time to go into every bit of it, but if there is 
anything after death, or before birth, that implies karma, and some means for 
resolving the karma one way or the other.
 

 You can always say, we have no evidence.', but I'd like to know if it's 
what they believe.

You could try asking. For example, I believe in many things, most of them 
positive. I believe in living one's life as if it matters, even though I firmly 
believe that on a fundamental level it doesn't. 

 

 I have asked, but there has been no reply or scant reply. There is some reason 
that you are living life as though it matters.  Maybe that is a belief you 
should examine.  Personally, I don't care if you, but since you brought it up.
 

 I ask that because there are many instances that would contradict these two 
assumptions.

Name two. Re my earlier post about Rhetorical Fallacies, this is called a 
straw man, Steve. Clearly, not everyone who is an atheist assumes that life 
as we know it ends at physical death, or that birth implies a tabula rasa.  

 

 Barry, if you choose to to discount the many accounts we have all heard about 
recall from children to adults, many of which have no explanation, be my guest. 
 I feel no need to try to prove them.  Discount any or all if you wish.
 

 And sometimes when pressed, you will hear the atheist reply with, there is so 
much we don't know about genetics, or there is so much we don't know about 
how the brain works, which sounds a lot like, God works in mysterious way.  
Now , the God works in mysterious ways doesn't do it for me either, but 
neither does the genetics things, or the brain thing, at least as it is often 
used here.  
 

 Cite examples of such replies here on Fairfield Life. We'll wait. 
 

 I heard that exact phrase from Curtis when the topic came up several years 
ago.  It was made about genetics, and the tabla rasa issue.  Hope that was soon 
enough. I think once you go there with an atheist, it introduces issues they 
are not particularly comfortable with.
 

 Listen, I gotta go,  Issue with our taxes.  Thanks. But I wish to reply more.

Often just a lame default, I think.


 So, that would be my take on the issue.
 
And a little of mine. I'm an atheist for purely pragmatic, Occam's Razor 
reasons. No need to postulate a God to explain existence is a simpler and 
more efficient explanation of the universe than A God was/is required for it 
to exist. 
 

 

The concept of a God *complicates* things, rather than simplifying them. 

As an example, if there is a God, and He/She/It has a PLAN for all of this, how 
is it that all these atheists aren't part of it? Were they created by 
someone/something else? What exactly is this else? And this is saying nothing 
about stuff like plagues, floods, earthquakes and other natural disasters. If 
you're an atheist, you get to look at these things and say, That's a real 
pity, but shit happens. 

If you're a Believer, you have to say, That's a real pity, including the fact 
that God made it happen. But it's not our place to question WHY He/She/It made 
it happen. 

 


---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 Sometimes I look at the way that believers react to the word

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-18 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
 And a little of mine. I'm an atheist for purely pragmatic, Occam's Razor 
reasons. No need to postulate a God to explain existence is a simpler and 
more efficient explanation of the universe than A God was/is required for it 
to exist. 

 

 Actually, I think about Occam's Razor when I am trying to make sense of these 
things.  And it's often the everyday occurrences that come to mind.
 

 And yes, I think the possibility that there is life after death, that we have 
a soul, and there is rebirth, are the garlic to the atheist.  (I did like that 
phrase).  
 

 And I'd like to hear a reasonable explanation of how people develop certain 
tendencies or  predispositions when there is no exposure to such experiences.  
In many cases the most sensible explanation I can come up with, is that there 
is such a thing as rebirth.
 

 And yes, I don't think an atheist wants to go there, because it opens the door 
to the notion that there is some sort of organizing power at work.
 

 What do you think?
 

 On the other hand, you can dismiss such anomalies as this as pure coincidence 
or genetics.  Maybe that's a  good enough explanation.
 

 

 The concept of a God *complicates* things, rather than simplifying them. 

 

 That would be fine with me.  I am trying to go about understanding things, 
like most of us.  And for me, I've come to the conclusion that there is a 
higher power at work, even if there is much I don't understand about it. 

As an example, if there is a God, and He/She/It has a PLAN for all of this, how 
is it that all these atheists aren't part of it? Were they created by 
someone/something else? What exactly is this else? And this is saying nothing 
about stuff like plagues, floods, earthquakes and other natural disasters. If 
you're an atheist, you get to look at these things and say, That's a real 
pity, but shit happens. 

If you're a Believer, you have to say, That's a real pity, including the fact 
that God made it happen. But it's not our place to question WHY He/She/It made 
it happen. 
 

 Who says the higher power needs to be involved in the daily occurrences of 
things. I certainly don't.  I think it is perfectly plausible for believer to 
come to that same conclusion that shit happens  Why not.  There is nothing 
that says God must be tied to such events.
 

 Kind of rushing here again.

 


---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 Sometimes I look at the way that believers react to the word atheist -- 
spitting it out as if it were an epithet -- and find it a curious reaction. I 
mean, with the exception of a vocal few who make their livings by poking 
theists just to watch them react, I don't see most everyday atheists (and I 
know quite a few, living where I live) reacting to believers in the same 
fashion. Unless the believers are trying to sell the atheists their beliefs, 
that is. Then all bets are off and the atheists can react to the proselytizing 
believers however they wish. 

Anyway, it's like the believers perceive the atheists as a *threat*, and as if 
by believing what they do and spit daring to say it aloud or write it 
somewhere they are trying to *take* something from them. 

I don't get this. *What*, after all, could an atheist take from a believer in 
God? They've got all they need by believing that there is someone/something IN 
CHARGE, and that there is a PLAN for all of this, right? So why are they so 
antagonistic towards a few vocal atheists speaking their minds and suggesting 
that no one is in charge and that there is no plan?

To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up 
and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. Such that you would miss 
them and feel something had been taken from you if you no longer believed?

What would such BENEFITS be? 

Surely you can name a few. 



 




  



 


 













Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-18 Thread steve.sundur
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
 As an example, if there is a God, and He/She/It has a PLAN for all of this, 
how is it that all these atheists aren't part of it? Were they created by 
someone/something else? What exactly is this else? And this is saying nothing 
about stuff like plagues, floods, earthquakes and other natural disasters. If 
you're an atheist, you get to look at these things and say, That's a real 
pity, but shit happens. 

 
If you're a Believer, you have to say, That's a real pity, including the fact 
that God made it happen. But it's not our place to question WHY He/She/It made 
it happen. 

If you're a believer you have to say..?
 

 Why would that be?  
 

 It's just as easy to say the plan was set in motion, and all bets are off. 
 

 Maybe that's a distinction you don't care to make , because it might poke a 
hole in some stereotype you hold for believers.
 


---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 Sometimes I look at the way that believers react to the word atheist -- 
spitting it out as if it were an epithet -- and find it a curious reaction. I 
mean, with the exception of a vocal few who make their livings by poking 
theists just to watch them react, I don't see most everyday atheists (and I 
know quite a few, living where I live) reacting to believers in the same 
fashion. Unless the believers are trying to sell the atheists their beliefs, 
that is. Then all bets are off and the atheists can react to the proselytizing 
believers however they wish. 

Anyway, it's like the believers perceive the atheists as a *threat*, and as if 
by believing what they do and spit daring to say it aloud or write it 
somewhere they are trying to *take* something from them. 

I don't get this. *What*, after all, could an atheist take from a believer in 
God? They've got all they need by believing that there is someone/something IN 
CHARGE, and that there is a PLAN for all of this, right? So why are they so 
antagonistic towards a few vocal atheists speaking their minds and suggesting 
that no one is in charge and that there is no plan?

To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up 
and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. Such that you would miss 
them and feel something had been taken from you if you no longer believed?

What would such BENEFITS be? 

Surely you can name a few. 



 




  



 


 













[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does TM seem to focus on losers?

2014-04-18 Thread steve.sundur
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 And *this* gets me to thinking about whether Maharishi always pitched TM to 
losers and people with problems and low self esteem because they become the 
best disciples. And *disciples* is what he was looking for.
 

 Or is it possible that for whatever reason the generation that responded most 
strongly to Maharishi's message was a generation that was searching for 
something different.  Is it possible that this may have been a reason, or do 
you prefer just to go with the low self esteem, loser scenario. 
 

 And is it possible that somehow you have gotten more jaded in your outlook on 
life such that everything to do with TM, at least, gets reduced to the worst 
possible interpretation.
 

 This is after all an organization that you left more than 40 years ago, and 
yet you are one of the most active participants in a forum which has this 
organization as it's focus.
 

 I don't know if the TB experiment you allude to regularly really makes sense.
 

 You appear to have a pretty big investment in anything, and everything TM.
 

 Am I wrong about that?
 

 

 

 

Think about it. Does the TMO really spend any energy trying to market TM to 
regular people, who have few problems in life and are just looking to enjoy 
it more? They do not. They focus on People With Problems.

Kids doing badly in school. Criminals locked away in prisons. Veterans with 
PTSD. 

Can't this be seen as a continuation of a long-standing trend to look for 
prospective new students among populations who are more likely to be easy to 
convert into True Believers and thus become disciples? 

It's just an idea. YMMV. 

 

 






Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does TM seem to focus on winners ?

2014-04-18 Thread steve.sundur
Michael, you once offered your services to help me get over my TBerness.  I now 
make the same offer to you. 

 Lesson One: Maharishi was never a God, and is not God.  He did not possess 
supernatural powers and never claimed to have them. Now, I realize that this 
may be hard for your to accept.
 

 You act more like a spurned lover who has put the object of his affections on 
a unrealistic pedestal that could never be ascended.  And now that this object 
of your affections has come up short, you are unable to get over the 
disappointment, and have become bitter.
 

 Let me know if I can help, and maybe, just maybe we can make some progress and 
move forward.
 

 Your Friend in Recovery,
 

 Steve

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 more like the CIA was never interested in TM to begin with and Marshy was a 
superstitious paranoid con artist. If he was so convinced the CIA was dogging 
his tracks, why didn't he use some of his enlightened powers to run 'em off, or 
call on Shiva to destroy them? I mean, if Shiva could make his own frozen 
pecker appear outside Marshy's bedroom when Marshy was in his dotage, surely he 
could have done the Old Goat that little favor.
 
 On Fri, 4/18/14, nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does TM seem to focus on winners ?
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, April 18, 2014, 12:18 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 It's a tricky question. First of all the CIA
 lost interest in the TMO already 29 years ago since they
 found it is a harmless org. The people at Langley are not
 stupid and only started their inquiries because that
 peanut-farmer asked them to. Plenty of people
 were on their payrolls at the time including some Initiators
 and members of Purusha. One fellow I know was caught
 red-handed when posting a report in a mailbox during a
 project in Asia. Maharishi didn't become the
 least upset and simply asked the fellow if he would
 give up his association with the CIA and continue to work
 for us, he agreed and is still fulltime.Then there is
 the issue with that Lama fellow. Unfortunately he is next to
 broke and has little funds to spare as most Governments sees
 him as a clown.My thinking these days is that
 the naysayers and dwellers in the comfy old outdated systems
 about to crumble, so furiously opposing change are not paid
 for their role. At least not that I am aware of.
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
turquoiseb@...
 wrote :
 
 Again just for the edification of
 the lurker press, Perfect TMer Nabby should
 remind them that -- as he has said here many times -- many
 of the TM critics here are being paid by the CIA. It is
 still an open question which Overlord pays better -- the
 Dalai Lama or the CIA. And there is the question as to
 whether some of them are double-dipping and
 being paid by both Overlords. Perhaps Nabby can answer these
 nagging questions for us. 
 
 From: nablusoss1008
 no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 To:
 FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Friday,
 April 18, 2014 1:34 PM
 Subject:
 [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does TM seem to focus on winners ?
 
 
  By asking
 for donations to finance free Initiations David Lynch takes
 from the rich and gives to the poor, a modern day Robin
 Hood. No wonders the devotees of stale, rigid and outdated
 religions representing the old ways of doing things hate
 him. Unfortunately the representatives of their
 outgoing energies are plenty here on FFL.
 ---In
 FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
LEnglish5@... wrote
 :
 
 The
 David Lynch Foundation offers TM instruction for free to
 people in at risk groups, but the $2500 price
 tag was originally set by Maharishi to entice wealthy people
 and only wealthy people to learn TM. Weren't you
 complaining about how insanely high that price tag
 was?
 Seems to me that no
 matter how TM is marketed and for what price and for
 whichever group of people -the homeless, war refugees,
 students in El Barrio watching their cousins kill their
 cousins, or world famous actors and actresses, CEOs worth as
 much as small countries, etc.- you'll find a reason to
 kvetch.
 It's just
 an idea. YMMV.
 ---In
 FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
turquoiseb@... wrote
 :
 
 One of the things I've noticed over
 the years is how many long-term TMers say things like,
 I'd be dead if it weren't for TM, or
 TM saved my life, or TM cured me of my
 depression/anxiety/suicidal thoughts/mental
 illness/whatever. 
 
 I've always found these claims difficult to
 relate to, because I didn't have anything to
 cure or get over when I first
 started TM. I had already left drugs behind me, having
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-18 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, waybackin71@... wrote :

 Barry, I did believe in God.  Then did not, although always held out hope that 
there was God. Then doubted the TM concept of Being, or my take on it.  The 
slightly more abstract concept works better for me. But when I give up even 
Being or some sort of sense of a fundamental energy that does structure life in 
the universe, then I feel some real sadness. Been struggling with this for 
years now - wanting to believe in something out there, something good and 
loving, while reading all the brain stuff about how we can  nudge our  brains 
to shift a bit and then see and feel things that seem 
spiritual/religious/universal/blissful/loving/farout.  I think much of the 
struggle, for me, is giving up the idea that there is a soul and it evolves 
from life to life.  I really really want that to be true!   For me, a bit of 
magical thinking makes me happier.  Recently, I have let it all go and given up 
on the intellectual struggle and just settled into knowing that there are ideas 
and beliefs that make me feel good, a deep inside my gut feeling of ok.
So that is where I am now - believing more than I did the last 20 years, but 
not reverting back entirely to the TM and preTM days.  I will continue to read 
all the brain stuff and enjoy it, but somehow I don't feel there is as much of 
a contradiction between that and having some beliefs that assume the universe 
is not only orderly but a bit caring, somehow.  How Somehow?  I don't know.  
The key is accepting not knowing - which leaves lots of wiggle room and 
flexibility.
 

 Hey Joe, that makes a lot of sense.  I think many of us are in that boat.  
Somewhere along that spectrum.
 

 So, I do think there are benefits to believing - if not in God, then in 
something that gives extra meaning to our lives.  Things are hard here, people 
suffer, they get sick, lose  loved ones, are hungry and cold. You know.  If 
belief in God or anything makes life seem softer, or gives people hope, then it 
can be a good thing. and if there really is nothing at all there and we rejoin 
the swirling soup of particles that make up the the universe, then having some 
wishful thinking beliefs to soften the journey thru human life does have 
benefits.  Community, rituals, comfort, feeling protected, giving reasons for 
the harshness which makes it easier to bear.  We all know when religion is not 
a good thing - if that belief narrows down the heart. But if the beliefs open 
wide the person's behavior and thoughts, I think it is a great thing. Something 
I would never want to take away from them.   
 

 I think you can be Christian or Jewish or whatever, believe it all, and yet 
still be open and accepting.  This is good for some people. Again, I think the 
key is being able to accept 
 not knowing for sure,  even with religion.  If the believer has some 
humility about their knowledge and beliefs, and can admit to not knowing for 
sure about the details, then it can work well. I have friends who don't believe 
at all, in anything.  They are wonderful people, ethical, generous, liberal.  
Yo  But believing in something or being religious does not have to mean you are 
a fundamentalist wackadoodle, either.  Most people I know who are religious are 
not offended by atheism.  Uncomfortable, maybe.  But not defensive.
 

 Well said Joe.  




[FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-18 Thread steve.sundur
Thanks for your comment Sal.   

 I think many of us just like to ponder the issue, when we have some free time 
to think.  And it remains open issue, at least for me.
 

 It is a shame when some try to polarize it, instead of bandying it about and 
maybe gaining some insight.  
 

 That takes place on both sides here, I think
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 Probably not what you are looking for, but what I've observed from the 
atheists, at least on this forum is that they are more comfortable keeping the 
discussion on highly abstract issues.  Issues that can't really be resolved one 
way or the other, or at least kept on a bit of solid ground. 

 For example, does the belief in atheism necessitate the tabla rasa theory that 
we are born with a blank slate?  Do the atheists believe that when we die, it 
all goes to black.
 

 Good questions, speaking entirely for myself - as atheists (as far as I know) 
aren't a gang with a set of instructions about what threshold of beliefs you 
need to reach before being a member - it's more about just not having a belief 
that there has ever been any sort of creator and relying instead on both 
uncertainty where necessary and confidence where appropriate. Everything is 
subject to review as more information comes to light, including whether or not 
there is any sort of god. But nobody actually knows whether there is one and 
given the apparent lack of necessity and amount of better explanations for 
god's traditional roles I know where I'd place my money.
 

 I like the idea of life after death though, it'd be cool to wake up in heaven 
or on the next stage of the computer game we all might be playing. I also like 
the idea of reincarnation be nice to know I may in some way get another go at 
this.But looking at what we know about animals and brains and evolution I'd 
have to say it isn't very likely. In fact, if I was a gambling man, I'd say the 
odds weren't worth much of a stake. But there might be something we don't know 
of course. It's a case of finding out later with that one but don't hold your 
breath.
 

 You can always say, we have no evidence.', but I'd like to know if it's 
what they believe.
 

 I ask that because there are many instances that would contradict these two 
assumptions.
 

 And sometimes when pressed, you will hear the atheist reply with, there is so 
much we don't know about genetics, or there is so much we don't know about 
how the brain works, which sounds a lot like, God works in mysterious way.  
Now , the God works in mysterious ways doesn't do it for me either, but 
neither does the genetics things, or the brain thing, at least as it is often 
used here.  
 

 Often just a lame default, I think,.
 

 I would say that the progress that has been made in studying consciousness in 
a short time has been rather impressive. Given the power of the scientific 
method to get to the bottom of things I would expect to get a working model of 
consciousness and self awareness very soon. We know where thoughts occur, what 
part of the brain needs to be active in order for consciousness to function 
(and how to knock it out), if it's possible to do it then we will. 
Unquestionably. The brain is after all another physical structure. 
 

 .Unless there is something really unusual going on. You have to look at it 
from an evolutionists perspective, there haven't always been brains and you can 
trace their growth from early on in history, it shouldn't be too hard to build 
a graph showing which animal has which level of awareness. We seem to be the 
only one with the ability to sit back and think about it. That's the only 
difference I can see with us: we have a metaphorical inner life and can make up 
abstract ideas like afterlife's. How we got that adaptation is a mystery but 
maybe not such a big one. 
 

 And of course, having an explanation of the consciousness hard problem 
doesn't mean we are going to be able to easily fit it to our own experience. 
And I expect there will be a lot of people who refuse to even try.
 


 So it isn't really lame, just a statement that there are still mysteries. And 
mysteries that I refuse to fill with woo woo.

 

 

 So, that would be my take on the issue.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 Sometimes I look at the way that believers react to the word atheist -- 
spitting it out as if it were an epithet -- and find it a curious reaction. I 
mean, with the exception of a vocal few who make their livings by poking 
theists just to watch them react, I don't see most everyday atheists (and I 
know quite a few, living where I live) reacting to believers in the same 
fashion. Unless the believers are trying to sell the atheists their beliefs, 
that is. Then all bets are off and the atheists can react to the proselytizing 
believers however they wish. 

Anyway, it's

[FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-18 Thread steve.sundur
Hey Curtis, everything going pretty well on this end.  Had softball practice 
tonight for our company team.  We got trounced last week.  Some comments below.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote :

 Hey Steve, how you been brother? Comments below
 --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 Probably not what you are looking for, but what I've observed from the 
atheists, at least on this forum is that they are more comfortable keeping the 
discussion on highly abstract issues.  Issues that can't really be resolved one 
way or the other, or at least kept on a bit of solid ground.

C: This surprised me. I wonder who you mean here. I consider myself and atheist 
and have talked about a wide rage of topics in my time here. Do you consider 
talking about higher states a discussion on solid ground?
 

 No, what I mean is that in discussions about belief and God, I prefer to 
examine some of the anomolies that crop up in everyday life that may shed light 
on the topic, rather than dealing in a lot of abstractions. I think I list some 
examples below.

My guess is that the line of reasoning  some atheists follow in discussing 
things isn't your groove so it seems more abstract than a discussion about god 
or enlightenment which you are more familiar with so it seems more solid to 
you. Just a guess. But this is a pretty philosophically oriented forum by 
design with a propensity for personal attack so it doesn't surprise me that 
most people keep things less personally vulnerable atheist or spiritual.
 

 Well, I guess what I am saying Curtis is that I like to stick close to my 
actual experience, and don't find a lot of value in discussing highly 
philosophical concepts that may continue without much chance of resolution.  I 
just lost interest in this sort of thing at some point .  If this is a sign of 
intellectual immaturity, then I guess I am guilty. 
 

 S: For example, does the belief in atheism necessitate the tabla rasa theory 
that we are born with a blank slate? 

C: Genetics has refuted this pretty thoroughly, as has neuroscience. It was 
Locke who proposed this idea but it hasn't really held up.
 

 And I guess this is exactly what I am pointing out.  Genetics is said to 
refute something as well as neuroscience but there everyday examples of 
anomolies that can't be explained.  I am sure you read about them periodically 
as I have.  And you can take NDE off the table as far as I'm concerned.  Too 
controversial to use as an example.

S: Do the atheists believe that when we die, it all goes to black.

C: I didn't get any official memo on this so I'll have to give you my best 
personal guess. For me I've noticed that it doesn't take much brain imbalance 
for me to go to black so I'm guessing that when the brain stops functioning it 
isn't gunna be positive for my conscious experience. I haven't seen any 
evidence to the contrary including near death experiences which I prefer to 
call not dead' experiences.

 

 Right, it is perfectly fair to say, there is no evidence to the contrary.  
But I'm always curious if this is what people actually believe.  On the other 
hand, I guess one can believe whatever science has discovered up to this point. 
 That seems rather limiting to me.  But I have no objection.
 

 S: You can always say, we have no evidence.', but I'd like to know if 
it's what they believe.

C: All of us believe things based on reasons that we value. Using the term 
evidence makes it sound more clinical but we all have an epistemological system 
with criteria whether conscious or not. No one believes everything we pick and 
choose according to our criteria.

 

 S:I ask that because there are many instances that would contradict these two 
assumptions.

C: Plenty for the tabla rass idea, for life after death, not so much for me. 

 

 Yes, good point.  Thank you.  
 

 S:And sometimes when pressed, you will hear the atheist reply with, there is 
so much we don't know about genetics, or there is so much we don't know about 
how the brain works, which sounds a lot like, God works in mysterious way.  
Now , the God works in mysterious ways doesn't do it for me either, but 
neither does the genetics things, or the brain thing, at least as it is often 
used here.

Often just a lame default, I think,.

C: I see plenty of difference. When a person says that there is a lot we don't 
know about genetics it is in the context of a specific plan to find out using a 
method. The fringes of what we know and don't know are mapped out carefully and 
choices are made for where is the best area to put resources to find out. They 
are only the same as saying God works in mysterious ways out of the context 
those phrases are used. I don't think religious people use that as a 
catchphrase for all the things we don't know do they? I think they use it as a 
physiological balm when life circumstances serve up something inconsistent with 
a loving god watching

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?

2014-04-18 Thread steve.sundur

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 From: steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@...
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 6:38 PM
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
 
 
   ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
 And a little of mine. I'm an atheist for purely pragmatic, Occam's Razor 
reasons. No need to postulate a God to explain existence is a simpler and 
more efficient explanation of the universe than A God was/is required for it 
to exist. 

 

 Actually, I think about Occam's Razor when I am trying to make sense of these 
things.  And it's often the everyday occurrences that come to mind.
 

 And yes, I think the possibility that there is life after death, that we have 
a soul, and there is rebirth, are the garlic to the atheist.  (I did like that 
phrase).  
 

 And I'd like to hear a reasonable explanation of how people develop certain 
tendencies or  predispositions when there is no exposure to such experiences.  
In many cases the most sensible explanation I can come up with, is that there 
is such a thing as rebirth.

I consider that *one* possible explanation, but far from the only or most 
likely one. *Everyone* has tendencies and predispositions, and they could 
come from anywhere.

 

 Jeez, that doesn't say much does it.   I mean if you take a logical approach, 
and if you assume a tabla rasa, then no, it can't just come from anywhere.  So, 
I think that's a pretty lazy approach, but hey, it takes care of the issue 
quickly.
 

 And yes, I don't think an atheist wants to go there, because it opens the door 
to the notion that there is some sort of organizing power at work.

 

 What do you think?

I don't think that the concept of human birth-death-rebirth requires any more 
organizing power than the concept of annual plants blooming, dying after 
producing seed, and then blooming again. There is no need to supply a Woo Woo 
explanation for what could be a completely automatic function. 

 

 Again, I find that pretty lame.  Organizing power just coming about in a 
random fashion?   Okay, if that works for you.  I come to a different 
conclusion.
 

 On the other hand, you can dismiss such anomalies as this as pure coincidence 
or genetics.  Maybe that's a  good enough explanation.
 

 

 The concept of a God *complicates* things, rather than simplifying them. 

 

 That would be fine with me.  I am trying to go about understanding things, 
like most of us.  And for me, I've come to the conclusion that there is a 
higher power at work, even if there is much I don't understand about it. 

And I have come to the opposite conclusion. End of story. It would seem that 
there is nothing further to discuss, unless you feel the need to try to convert 
me to your conclusion. Me, I feel no such need. Believe whatever you want.  
 

 Barry, it is you who have lost your edge.  You would be well advised not to 
bring up subjects or issues that you are unwilling, or unable to follow through 
with.
 

 And you may not be aware, but I feel compelled to point out that it is you who 
play the TB card as your get out of jail free card





























Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: If the siddhis were real, here's a typical day in the life of a MSAE kid.

2014-04-17 Thread steve.sundur
Wow, the actual story of the rapist turns out to be quite a bit different than 
it was first portrayed by Edg, doesn't it, a least as it attempts to implicate 
the TMO in this offense. And I guess the paragraphs that follow, and which 
contain absolutely nothing new, are meant to make up for this lack. 

 You sort of have a habit of doing this, I've observed, Edg.  Part of your 
mission I think you said once.
 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 I believe, (not certain,) the rapist was the guy who built (or bought) the 
first dome house built in the FF area...just north on Pleasant Plain 
Rdcirca 1982ish?  Steve? was his name.would break into houses, rape and 
leave.in cities all over Iowa...could be I'm remembering it wrongly, but 
some guy went to prison for serial rape.  Don't know if he ever had a flying 
badge.  

Truth be told, the movement's history is thoroughly bespattered with offenses 
petty and grave done by those who got to hobnob with the uppers -- our betters 
by dint of bank account.  And the lower staff too would leverage any 
bureaucratic power -- the course office folks, for instance, came across to me 
as quite twisted in their vibe.  

Too, the leaders were dumped suddenly and without explanations -- regularly  
ticked and tocked off no matter their reps with us minions.  What?  Our widely 
adored God Conscious Jerry Jarvis suddenly was just not up to being 
life-supporting in his role for the movement?  H, toughie to explain why 
Maharishi didn't magically see Jerry for what he was and would become, or that 
the technique failed to evolve him.  Or what?  

Meanwhile a FF woman set herself on fire because of love.  Elsewhen, in a 
small meeting, a would be apostate faux guru slapped a woman across the face -- 
and that audience hardly flinched at that therapy.  The TMO history is 
freckled with those with good reputations and supposed spiritual heights who 
simply had bad luck -- their plane crashed while on a mission for Maharishi, 
their 20 million dollar company folds despite doing everything movementish, or 
they just dropped dead while young and well intended --  their good heartedness 
and charity and one-pointedness did exactly jack shit for them.  In general, 
the poor stay poor, and the rich feel more evolved.

And let's not forget those who taped off the first three rows of seats in 
virtually every meeting that Maharishi attended, and no one was ever told how 
to become someone important enough to sit in those areasbut I did see 
intiators seemingly saving seats for their families, and the rich always sat 
close or even on stage, etc.  One never had to look at the movement too hard to 
spot how individuals cut every corner if their ego simply asserted it was okay 
to do it -- second thoughts be damned.  My sister-in-law made out with Domesh 
in the back of a meeting with only 15 people  in it -- I saw them. We're 
talking french kissing for fuck's sake.  Everyone is a monkey brained 
rationalist.  

Who reading this has not heard DOZENS of stories of long-time, devoted, TMers 
doing some seriously fucked up shit -- every sort of financial chicanery, the 
whole spectrum of infidelities, the small company potentates, the throngs 
packing meetings thrown by carpet-bagging magicians coming to town and 
siphoning off the TMers on the fringe of their true-believerism due to decades 
of abuse.  Fairfield roils with iniquity.  TM does not affect personality or 
morality.  Nope. It. Does. Not.

And we're gunna die -- pretty damned soon.  Ready for it?

My prediction:  Ego process ceases, and any soul's individuality or ownership 
of a certain history dissolves into unfixable entropy -- only God could can 
remember every iota of any and all -- there's the only residual of existence 
possible for souls after the body goes poof -- as faint possibilities in the 
back of God's mind.

And every day I was in the movement, I did the same immoral shit in my spheres 
of influence.  We all do and did.  TM did not save us from ourselves.  Our shit 
was not gotten together.  The organization to teach Esperanto is more 
successful in creating world peace -- bigger organization, better funded, 
thousands of offices.  TMO did jack comparatively.  

And half the Beatles died young with personal histories replete with turmoil.  

Where's the beef?

Where's the fucking beef?

Who seems plump?  Somebody's got the money, right?  

And yet I would not stay anyone about to sit and meditate -- no matter the 
provenance of the mantras used.  

Edg




Re: [FairfieldLife] !Maharaja Adhiraj Rajaraam is Coming to Fairfield!

2014-04-17 Thread steve.sundur
Hi Share, 

 I really don't think much about the mechanics of transcending.  I think I get 
what Lawson is saying, but this comment from Fred sounds like so much pablum to 
me.
 

 As far as everyday transcending, I think you know when your deep, and when 
you're not so deep.
 

 Just my unsolicited opinion. (-:
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote :

 Lawson, I'm not sure about the accuracy of your statement that because the 
dive is shallower, progression to samadhi takes longer. In one of Fred Travis' 
graduate classes, someone complained that they didn't feel deep in TM anymore. 
Fred explained that one way to understand the growth from CC to GC is that the 
depth comes up to the surface. So we might not feel deep. But that doesn't mean 
that we aren't deep. I'd add that in any case, trying to feel deep is counter 
productive.
 

 On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 9:29 PM, LEnglish5@... LEnglish5@... wrote:
 
   The long-term outcome of all mantras is that they lead to samadhi. Some work 
faster than others, which, ironically, is the point of advanced techniques: the 
dive is more shallow, so the progression to samadhi takes longer.
 

 So that doesn't explain the striking difference between TM and other 
mantra-based methods. It's not the fact that a simple, fast-working mantra was 
being used. If that was the case, then other practices would show the simplest 
state of awareness slower, but instead, they show it LESS, the longer people 
have been practicing.
 

 L

 


 













[FairfieldLife] Re: Studying the numinous

2014-04-16 Thread steve.sundur
Nice post, tax
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 This reply is specifically for Judy, not Turq or Salyavin. Alas she cannot 
honestly reply, as it would break her word. That is not saying she is 
dishonest, please note. We all have honesty glitches, part of the human 
condition.  

 Generally I am not interested in Theism. I'm a post-Theist, the theist part 
being early childhood conditioning, which fortunately was neither intense nor 
carried out with any verve, thus my mind escaped. 

 I do not care for the word God, primarily because it has so many variable and 
cultural connotations, which make it 'slippery' as vehicle for explanation.
 

 If one thinks dualistically about reality, then there is always more than one 
being, for example, me and the world, or me and God. As long as there is any 
sense of separation, then being is divided. Those whose consciousness is 
embodied cannot think any other way. The theistic argument that God is not a 
being but just being I do not have an argument with. I think currently that 
being = consciousness = God, the latter in that most abstract sense. But most 
people do not use the word that way. When God is being in this way, you are the 
same, as Jesus said 'not made out of flesh and blood but out of God'. But most 
people are not going to get that idea of being if you use the word God because 
it will pull in all sorts of cultural and individualised conditioning which in 
the mind creates 'a being', not abstract non-thing being.
 

 The so-called spiritual path is basically just the process of retraining the 
mind and larger experience to de-localise and de-centralise the appreciation of 
consciousness. Consciousness makes experience possible, you never experience 
consciousness, it is what makes experience possible, it is what experiences. In 
older language it is 'the light of life' which is saying the same thing 
isomorphically transformed. Consciousness unlocalised and decentred is equally 
everywhere, the very things of experience. It is equally at every point along 
the data path of perception, it makes the data points 'visible'. You do not 
look for it in the human head. What you find there are sensors and an 
interpretive processor, the mind. Consciousness makes the sensors and the 
interpretive processing experience-able. All you will find in the head is 
machinery. You do not have consciousness, it has 'you', what you think you are. 
 

 Being is eternal but not in the sense of time. Everything has being like this, 
the most obvious thing in the world, everything is this being. It is trivial 
and so in one's face it is never seen or understood. As Vashitha said, all this 
talk about creation and who created the world is for the purpose of writing and 
expounding scriptures, but it is not true. But the human mind, thinking, works 
sequentially, and so it sees things as a process with beginnings, middles, and 
endings. The Big Bang Theory is an example of this, and that is a great 
practical way to look at the universe, but if you want fulfilment there has to 
be the experience of everything, mind, body, environment, as all the same 
being, everything collectively together, the 'uncarved block' as the Taoists 
say. Unity. Not you in unity, just unity. No 'you' is required. Delocalisatin 
and decentralisation of consciousness transforms the appreciation of the 
concept of 'self', and it does not matter if you capitalise 'self' or not. It 
is just a story, a narrative with the tag 'self' attached to it. You do not 
have a relationship with being, for it is just what you are, once the 'you' 
gets dropped off the map as a convenient fiction.
 

 To find out if this is real or not, there is no evidence except the 
experience. There is no proof, no argument can show this. When people talk 
about it in one way or another, if what they say has a resonance with you, then 
it sets up a spark inside, and then the search to find out if that particular 
manner of expression is somehow real begins. No guarantee of success. If it 
does not resonate, it will appear as total nonsense, because it is not like 
something, not like anything, so an argument will never convince.
 

 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote :

 Yet another atheist wannabe who simply cannot lower himself to reading enough 
philosophy to realize the incoherence of one of his fundamental premises, or 
that the purported evidentiary problems of theism as confronted by science that 
he blabs on about so pompously are in fact nonexistent. 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 Hell if I know what a divinity is. I just copied the definition of 'numinous' 
from the Google search results for 'define:numinous'. I was discussing the 
nature of informed belief, that is belief based on evidence rather than simply 
an idea one has in the mind. I was not discussing anything about atheism. 
Without evidence, there is no case to be made, 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Studying the numinous

2014-04-14 Thread steve.sundur
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emilymaenot@... wrote :
 I *loved* that sentence also.  
 
The below, is the random brain activity theory first espoused by Curtis, if I 
am not mistaken.  But what I've found, is that the refining of perception is a 
gradual process, and may be accompanied by physiological changes. 
 

 And as for mental and spiritual discipline, I take this to mean inner work, 
perhaps meditation of some sort, but also introspection about who I am and 
also a questioning of one's thought processes.
 

 I don't think you make any process on the spiritual path without 
introspection.  
 

 And yes, I think the above processes do lead to breakthroughs.  Whether you 
want to call it getting closer to God, or just a better understanding the 
mechanics of what goes on behind the scenes, I don't know.  I think things get 
more personal at that point.
 

  

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 This bit made me laugh:
 

  In my experience, those who make the most theatrical display of demanding 
“proof” of God are also those least willing to undertake the specific kinds of 
mental and spiritual discipline that all the great religious traditions say are 
required to find God.
 

 The experience she had is quite interesting though, and proof that we have an 
inner world that can go a bit screwy occasionally. But where does the feeling 
of wisdom that we designate god come from? We know that consciousness is a 
group experience of many parts of the brain pitching in, perhaps there's a bit 
confirms to us when we are on the right track about something and reward us 
with some chemical that feels profoundly wise (mescalin?) when other bits that 
help self-regulation step offline for a minute we can be overwhelmed by unified 
wisdom. An unbalancing of what we think of as ordinary experience.
 

 Let's not forget these experiences are part of the continuum reported by 
schizophrenics, who are understood to have a fracturing of their normal 
day-to-day reality. My best guess is that our inner picture takes so much 
energy and complicated processing to keep going that it's bound to get in a 
muddle every now and again. Mostly it will be bad (mental illness) but 
sometimes good (mystical experience).
 

 I'm sure everyone gets things like this, especially when they are younger and 
in the grip of hormonal changes, I certainly did. My first mystical experience 
was while walking through a meadow aged 10 (ish) . Suddenly the world revealed 
a hidden depth, a silent vastness behind reality that was also part of it. Very 
profound vision and stayed with me also.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote :

 A fascinating exchange of views...
 

 Opinion piece in the NYTimes by Barbara Ehrenreich, rationalist author and 
political activist (and atheist), about the change in her perspective on life 
wrought gradually over many years by a mystical experience she had as an 
adolescent (note: at age 73, she's still an atheist):
 

 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/opinion/sunday/a-rationalists-mystical-moment.html
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/opinion/sunday/a-rationalists-mystical-moment.html

 

 Response by NYTimes columnist Ross Douthat (not an atheist) pointing out that 
her call for science to investigate mystical experiences in depth is premature 
because science doesn't yet understand ordinary experience well enough:
 

 http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/how-to-study-the-numinous/ 
http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/how-to-study-the-numinous/

 









[FairfieldLife] Re: Studying the numinous

2014-04-14 Thread steve.sundur
progress, not process
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emilymaenot@... wrote :
 I *loved* that sentence also.  
 
The below, is the random brain activity theory first espoused by Curtis, if I 
am not mistaken.  But what I've found, is that the refining of perception is a 
gradual process, and may be accompanied by physiological changes. 
 

 And as for mental and spiritual discipline, I take this to mean inner work, 
perhaps meditation of some sort, but also introspection about who I am and 
also a questioning of one's thought processes.
 

 I don't think you make any progress on the spiritual path without 
introspection.  
 

 And yes, I think the above processes do lead to breakthroughs.  Whether you 
want to call it getting closer to God, or just a better understanding the 
mechanics of what goes on behind the scenes, I don't know.  I think things get 
more personal at that point.
 

  

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 This bit made me laugh:
 

  In my experience, those who make the most theatrical display of demanding 
“proof” of God are also those least willing to undertake the specific kinds of 
mental and spiritual discipline that all the great religious traditions say are 
required to find God.
 

 The experience she had is quite interesting though, and proof that we have an 
inner world that can go a bit screwy occasionally. But where does the feeling 
of wisdom that we designate god come from? We know that consciousness is a 
group experience of many parts of the brain pitching in, perhaps there's a bit 
confirms to us when we are on the right track about something and reward us 
with some chemical that feels profoundly wise (mescalin?) when other bits that 
help self-regulation step offline for a minute we can be overwhelmed by unified 
wisdom. An unbalancing of what we think of as ordinary experience.
 

 Let's not forget these experiences are part of the continuum reported by 
schizophrenics, who are understood to have a fracturing of their normal 
day-to-day reality. My best guess is that our inner picture takes so much 
energy and complicated processing to keep going that it's bound to get in a 
muddle every now and again. Mostly it will be bad (mental illness) but 
sometimes good (mystical experience).
 

 I'm sure everyone gets things like this, especially when they are younger and 
in the grip of hormonal changes, I certainly did. My first mystical experience 
was while walking through a meadow aged 10 (ish) . Suddenly the world revealed 
a hidden depth, a silent vastness behind reality that was also part of it. Very 
profound vision and stayed with me also.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote :

 A fascinating exchange of views...
 

 Opinion piece in the NYTimes by Barbara Ehrenreich, rationalist author and 
political activist (and atheist), about the change in her perspective on life 
wrought gradually over many years by a mystical experience she had as an 
adolescent (note: at age 73, she's still an atheist):
 

 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/opinion/sunday/a-rationalists-mystical-moment.html
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/opinion/sunday/a-rationalists-mystical-moment.html

 

 Response by NYTimes columnist Ross Douthat (not an atheist) pointing out that 
her call for science to investigate mystical experiences in depth is premature 
because science doesn't yet understand ordinary experience well enough:
 

 http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/how-to-study-the-numinous/ 
http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/how-to-study-the-numinous/

 











Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Russia and China announce decoupling trade from Dollar

2014-04-13 Thread steve.sundur
did anyone else think racks when those at symbols were posted, and then 
those shacks, or is that just me?
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote :

 @@
 
 Those shacks must have some really nice furniture in them then and 
refrigerators full of food.
 
 
 On 04/13/2014 03:03 PM, Richard J. Williams wrote:
 
   On 4/13/2014 4:31 PM, Bhairitu wrote:
  As far as third world countries, we have one just south of the US 
  border. 
 
 Mexico is a developed country, not a third world country. They use pesos 
 down there in case you didn't know.
 
 ---
 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus 
protection is active.
 http://www.avast.com http://www.avast.com
 


 




Re: [FairfieldLife] Russia and China announce decoupling trade from Dollar

2014-04-12 Thread steve.sundur
http://www.npr.org/2013/09/12/221425582/tired-of-inequality-one-economist-says-itll-only-get-worse
 
http://www.npr.org/2013/09/12/221425582/tired-of-inequality-one-economist-says-itll-only-get-worse
 

 I mentioned this book before.  This is one scenario on how things could play 
out.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote :

 Hard to say.  Could be anything from a Road Warrior scenario to folks banding 
together to help each other out like they did with Hurricane Sandy.  Most 
Americans are being pushed into austerity anyway.  The gap between the richest 
and poorest is growing wider.  History says that the general population will 
not put up with oppression.  Some folks will say that ordinary Americans will 
be too apathetic to revolt.  I think if you took away their sports TV they 
would get rowdy though. 
 
 The bank bailout of 2008 only put a band-aid on the problem and delayed the 
inevitable. 
 
 On 04/12/2014 02:43 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote:
 
   

 Collapse of the US economy. 
 How certain is that, within what timeframe and how will it effect ordinary 
Americans ?
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... wrote :
 

 Collapse of the US economy.  This has been discussed for some time.  Remember 
that the US attacked Iraq because Saddam threatened to change from the US 
dollar to something else (WMDs were just a lame excuse).  The banksters have 
gamed our economic system and there is no solution.  Why we fear they will try 
next and some political pundits think is WWIII to reset everything.  Yup, that 
might REALLY reset everything including all life on earth.  It is said they 
want it soon before Russia and China catch up with the US militarily.
 
 Interesting article and book review by Paul Krugman about the economic 
situation:
 
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/may/08/thomas-piketty-new-gilded-age/
 
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/may/08/thomas-piketty-new-gilded-age/
 
 On 04/12/2014 01:15 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote:
 
   Certain posters here claim they are in the know of economics. Could any of 
these pundits explain what this would mean for the American way of life ?
 

 Russia has just dropped another bombshell, announcing not only the de-coupling 
of its trade from the dollar, but also that its hydrocarbon trade will in the 
future be carried out in rubles and local currencies of its trading partners - 
no longer in dollars - see Voice of Russia 
http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_04_04/Russia-prepares-to-attack-the-petrodollar-2335/
 
http://www.sott.net/article/277104-Russia-and-China-announce-decoupling-trade-from-Dollar-The-End-for-the-USA-is-nigh%E2%80%8F
 
http://www.sott.net/article/277104-Russia-and-China-announce-decoupling-trade-from-Dollar-The-End-for-the-USA-is-nigh%E2%80%8F


 


 




Re: [FairfieldLife] Are the TM-Sidhis nothing but Placebo Effect?

2014-04-11 Thread steve.sundur
Good points
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :
 
 Share, I do like Barry, but I think he has gone ecstatic with this new theory 
he's put forth.  I think he thinks he's found the Rosetta Stone or something.

Steve, I suspect you might want to rethink this. Yesterday I posted a *theory*, 
presenting it very much *as* a theory. I only replied to my original post a few 
times about the theory itself -- once to Michael, twice to Share, once to 
Salyavin, and once (humorously) to Bhairitu. I made a couple of posts under the 
topic correcting Judy on inaccuracies (a polite word for lies) she was trying 
to spread about the history of the TM-Sidhi courses, but not arguing the 
Placebo Effect thang per se. At no point did I attempt to sell the theory, to 
you or anyone else. 

In contrast, *most* of the other 58 posts (so far) in the thread were from 
people dumping on Barry. One might suspect that something about it pushed 
their buttons. Another bunch of the same people -- Judy, Richard, Ann, Nablus 
-- also produced dozens of posts under another thread dumping on Barry. 
Presumably they got *their* buttons kinda pushed, too.

As for the theory itself, I can think of two more pieces of supporting 
evidence for it. Do you remember how the flying (actually, hopping) took 
place in waves? Nothing would happen and nothing would happen, and then one 
person would start to bounce, and almost immediately a whole bunch of other 
people would start bouncing around as well. Might I suggest that suggestion 
might have had something to do with this?

The other thing is the barking and growling and shouting and moaning. I don't 
know if you were around back then, but it was pretty much a feature of early 
TM-Sidhi practice. People would start barking like dogs and shouting and 
flailing their arms about and moaning and all sorts of other stuff. Again, it 
tended to happen in waves -- one person starting it and then others picking 
up on the suggestion and doing it, too. That certainly speaks to the 
possibility of suggestion. However, something *else* speaks even more strongly 
of suggestion. At some point Maharishi heard about all of this ruckus, which 
made the domes sound like an out-of-control evangelical tent meeting, and he 
declared that it was inappropriate. Almost overnight, it stopped. The *same* 
people who had been claiming that all this noise emanating from them was not 
in their control suddenly found that it was. Go figure. The way I figure it, 
it's all explained handily by Placebo Effect -- suggestion, then effect.

But again, all of this is just theory on my part, and furthermore a theory I am 
*not* trying to sell you. If you somehow feel threatened by me presenting it -- 
as Judy, Richard, Ann, and Nablus obviously do -- I would look inside for the 
cause of that rather than to me.








Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Unstressing or Demons?

2014-04-10 Thread steve.sundur
Here's what I think you want, Barry.  You grand mission is to have the greater 
TM community, those that live in Fairfield, and those that live abroad, 
(outside of Fairfield), to admit that ME is a fraud.  This is the grand 
experiment, (I believe that's how you refer to it), that you've been conducting 
for going on 20 years. 

 I guess that explains why, even though you stepped away from the program over 
thirty years ago, you are still one of the top five participants, in this TM 
related site, in terms of overall posts. 
 

 Let it not be said that MMY and the TM Program did not provide you with an 
important component of your social interactions!
 

 As for the TM and ME effect, I prefer Share's analysis that for many, TM 
produces benefits, and so by logical extension, if large groups of people 
meditate together, that effect may be magnified.  To what extent, if any, that 
effect will be noticed or documented remains to be seen.  Right now the 
evidence is pretty scant.  But maybe people feel they derive other benefits by 
mediating in a large group.  I enjoyed it during the time I participated.
 

 The way it works is that people take what they want, and leave the rest.  I 
realize that that blows a pretty big hole in your True Believe doctrine,  But, 
I can't help ya there. Sorry
 

 And as an aside, and a rather odd one at that, it fits the pattern where you 
glorify whichever city or country you happen to living, and disparage the city 
or country you would have just left.

 

 Or never mind that your favorite target, next to TMers, of course, is the US 
of A, and yet you appear to largest consumer of American culture.  Another 
experiment I presume, and a major Go Figure to boot.
 

 So, the bottom line in all of this, is that if anyone comes across as obsessed 
with the TM program and the TM organization, it may just be the feller you look 
at in the mirror.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :
 
 You make the point well, Ann. 

 I don't know many who took these claims at face value, and thereby set 
themselves up for disillusionment. 

 
Well, I'd say that at least 5,000 did, because isn't that the number who paid 
thousands of dollars each first to learn the TM-Sidhis, and then even more 
money to attend the Taste Of Utopia course in Fairfield. Then there are all 
the people who have paid similar thousands of dollars to learn them in the 
years since, and even more to move to Buttfuck, Iowa to practice them in a 
group several hours a day. I'd suggest that the number of people who took the 
promise of the ME seriously was very large -- and very profitable -- indeed. 


 Most put them in the context of a vision of possibilities and discounted 
accordingly.

It appears to me that this most you're speaking about still refuse to 
challenge the basic idea of the ME to this day, and obviously because it's 
easier to claim that you never 'really' believed in it and spent all that time 
and money just for a 'vision of possibilities' than it is to admit that you 
have so little discrimination and common sense that you bought into an obvious 
fraud completely. 

 

 And it seems strange to make the case that since, we didn't eliminate the ago 
old problems of mankind in this generation  the whole program was a fraud.
 
I wouild say instead that it seems strange to you because you don't want to 
admit that you were gullible enough to fall for an obvious fraud. It's not 
really that horrible a thing to do. Here, I'll show you: Back when I paid 
thousands of dollars to learn the TM-Sidhis, the idea of the 'ME' was not even 
a gleam in the old con man's eye, and didn't appear until long after I had left 
the TM movement. Nevertheless, I *was* stupid enough to pay thousands of 
dollars for another kind of obvious fraud -- the promise that I would be able 
to learn to levitate. Shame on me for being so mind-numbingly gullible as to 
have done that. 

See? It isn't hard at all.  


 I poured my heart and soul into achieving those goals.  And at some point I 
too became a little disillusioned, but I never felt anyone owed me anything in 
this spiritual game.  

You certainly don't seem to feel that they owed you the truth. 

 

 Let a man raise himself, by himself.  Let him not destroy himself. He alone 
is his own friend.  He alone, his own destroyer  From the Bhagavad Gita.  
Maybe that is what helped me.
 

If you alone are responsible for believing that bouncing on your butt would 
bring about world peace and end crime, how did you think up and promote the 
idea? And if you alone thought it all up, why did you pay thousands of 
dollars to the TM organization to learn how to do what you alone were 
responsible for? 

The word fraud is liberating, Steve. Learn to say it, and you might feel 
better. 












Re: [FairfieldLife] Are the TM-Sidhis nothing but Placebo Effect?

2014-04-10 Thread steve.sundur
Share, I do like Barry, but I think he has gone ecstatic with this new theory 
he's put forth.  I think he thinks he's found the Rosetta Stone or something. 

 When the siddhis were first introduced, I was with a small group in my dorm, 
many of whom had concrete experiences with the siddhis.
 

 You what one of those guys is doing now.  He's a respected tax lawyer in the 
northeast, recipient of many recognitions.  And also happens to be a supporter 
of the TMO.  In fact it's listed in his business profile along with his other 
accomplishments, including being a graduate of MIU.
 

 But he must be a deluded cult apologist according to the detractors here.
 

 In fact, look at the accomplishments of many everyday TMers, and former TM 
teachers.  I know many who live quite normal lives.  Not heavily invested in 
the organization, but have enjoyed, and still enjoy benefits.
 

 That is so anethema to the story some would have you believe here.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote :

 turq, research and my own experience indicates that field independence 
develops in TMers. That alone would decrease and or prevent any alleged placebo 
effect and strengthen a person's ability to divorce from it. I think this is 
one of the greatest benefits of TM. It liberates. Even from itself.

Plus I doubt than a placebo effect, even if it occurred in the beginning, can 
last for decades! Especially if a person has very little contact with the TMO.

Lastly, again going by my own experience, I'd say that the language of the 
sutra doesn't matter as a person's awareness settles into finer levels of 
existence.
 

 On Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:17 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... wrote:
 
   I think one can make a case that they are. Here, I'll start...

First, let's look at the basic TM technique, which uses Sanskrit mantras 
described by the TMO as meaningless sounds (which are really the names or 
calling cards of Hindu gods and goddesses, as anyone who can read books from 
India would know) as a mechanism for meditation. You *could* make a case that 
there is something special about these mantras, some sonic quality that 
actually facilitates meditation, because of course they have no meaning to most 
of the people who think them. 

But that's not true for the TM-Sidhis. As anyone who has ever learned them 
knows (but gets really, really uptight when someone like myself points out), 
what you paid thousands of dollars for (a good argument for the Placebo Effect 
in itself) were a number of *English language phrases* straight from a 
translation of the Yoga Sutras, all of which very *definitely* have meaning. 
After a period of TM meditation, the TM Sidha is instructed to think them -- 
*in English* (or whatever modern language they were taught the TM-Sidhis in) in 
a particular way, and then wait for the effects. 

I believe that a strong case can be made for Placebo Effect-like *expectation* 
in all of this, for three reasons. First, the TM-Sidhis were initially marketed 
*as a way of achieving and mastering all of the siddhis these phrases 
describe*. The original (first few years) intro lectures about the TM-Sidhi 
program were full of promises that you would learn to levitate and be able to 
perform other siddhis. Tales were told by people marketing and selling the new 
(and rather expensive) courses of people having been seen levitating, or 
walking through walls, or demonstrating invisibility. All of these tales were 
nothing more than urban legends, of course, because none of this had ever 
happened. But still, an *expectation* WAS formed among the people paying their 
money for the TM-Sidhi course that they'd have experiences like this 
themselves. 

Second are the nature of the phrases they're thinking themselves. They *very 
much* have meaning, and you'd have to be a complete idiot not to realize that 
when you're sitting there thinking them that you're supposed to experience 
what they describe. For example, is there any question that when you're sitting 
there thinking Friendliness that you're supposed to feel more friendly? Or 
that when you're sitting there thinking Strength of an elephant you're 
supposed to feel stronger? Or that when you're thinking Relationship of body 
and akasha - lightness of cotton fiber you're supposed to lift up into the air 
as if you were actually lighter yourself? OF COURSE this is a form of 
suggestion, and I think that combined with the fact that the people thinking 
this last sutra had paid thousands of dollars for the privilege, one can make 
a strong case that any bouncing that follows (caused by unconscious or only 
partly conscious physical effort) can be attributed to nothing but the Placebo 
Effect.

Third is the aspect of reinforcement that one receives in the form of praise 
for claiming to have *had* the experience of these phrases you're thinking. As 
reported here on FFL, in recent courses at MUM the participants are actually 
questioned 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Are the TM-Sidhis nothing but Placebo Effect?

2014-04-10 Thread steve.sundur
tell me, because I really don't know, but is it a fallacy when one cites 
examples from a ridiculous extreme to try to make their points?  I mean, sure, 
we all like to hear outrageous stories, but when that's the main content of 
what one's posts, it does get a little predictable.  Just sayin', as they say
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 
 Invisibility would be fun, I heard they dropped it from the course because 
people were learning just to become invisible. Doesn't sound very likely, 
levitation would just as impressive, how about both at the same time? Difficult 
to prove though. LOL!
 

 Maybe they kept the flying sutra in because it's easier to convince people 
that hopping might one day become floating, than being able to be seen might 
one day become invisibility.
 

 I do know someone who learned the invisibility sutra and someone told him his 
legs disappeared when he was meditating. Honest. The power of suggestion!
 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 I always regretted I didn't get the invisibility sutra nor the understanding 
the language of animals - they weren't handing those out to us plebeian 
meditators otherwise known as Rising Sidhas, dunno why - I guess they thought 
the more highly evolved governors had unstressed their asses off too much when 
trying to turn invisible and maybe a few of 'em got carted off to mental 
institutions when their families found them talking to squirrels and such and 
believing they answered back after the new gov's got back home from the much 
vaunted 6 month courses. 
 





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Maharishi Murderer

2014-04-10 Thread steve.sundur
Jesus Christ, this makes me smile!
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote :

  Hey Richard, I like the pictures you've posted of yourself.  My favorite was 
the one from when you worked as a reporter,
 
 If anyone wants to make lot's of money, go into commissioned sales.

 

 
 
 

 On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 11:03 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... 
wrote:
   Hey Richard, I like the pictures you've posted of yourself.  My favorite was 
the one from when you worked as a reporter, (if I have that right)

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
punditster@... wrote : 

 On 4/9/2014 2:00 PM, salyavin808 wrote:

 Look at it as helping him realise that he needs to modify his approach if he 
wants to be taken seriously. 
 So, why would I want to be taking you seriously - you're just another 
anonymous poster. But, your contributions should be able to stand on their own 
without any comment from me, pro or con. So, far you've been an interesting 
read, but I'm not sure why you're not interested in discussing spiritual paths, 
music, or any of the other 10,000 topics I've posted to FFL. Go figure.
 
 But like most people here he's old enough to have decided the sort of face he 
wants to present to the world. Go figure. 
 Well, I always put my best face forward - but you didn't post a photo of your 
face. LoL!
 



 

 










Re: [FairfieldLife] Are the TM-Sidhis nothing but Placebo Effect?

2014-04-10 Thread steve.sundur
dittos on Bhairitu's comment
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote :

 Of course, it's not at all interesting, because she didn't try to explain 
her beliefs about the TM-Sidhis and how she believes they work. What she did 
was describe what she felt were the benefits to herself, not an alternative 
theory. In fact, what she describes is fully consistent with TM theory. Plus 
which, I never said the TM-Sidhis work and wouldn't make that claim (that's 
why I used scare quotes in my post). They have effects of various sorts, 
depending on the individual. 

 Jeez, you have to watch him like a hawk for all the gross misstatements and 
distortions of fact he sneaks into his posts.
 

 I do agree with Share about the placebo effect generally: We don't know how it 
works. Bhairitu's comment was interesting, that the actual performance of 
siddhis is a placebo effect, i.e., making something happen via the mind 
alone. That sounds right to me.
 

 Share, thanks for your replies, and your honest attempt to try to explain your 
beliefs about the TM-Sidhis and how you believe they work. I'm still more 
attracted to my placebo effect theory, but so it goes...

Isn't it interesting, as well, that you *could* propose an alternative theory, 
and that woman who goes to great lengths to prove how much smarter she is than 
you couldn't?  :-)
 

 

 From: Share Long sharelong60@...
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Are the TM-Sidhis nothing but Placebo Effect?
 
 
   salyavin, like I said to turq, I'm really enjoying answering these posts. 
Another benefit of TMSP, in my experience, has to do with developing opposite 
positive qualities. I think it has to do with focusing from the more settled 
levels of mind and body. Broad comprehension and sharp focus happen at the same 
time. I would LOVE to see how that would look on an fMRI machine. And I would 
really love to see how it looks in someone who's been doing it for decades!

Anyway, to more directly answer your question, I think my thinking has become 
both more fluid and more steady over time. I know these sound opposite but as I 
say above, I think that's what happens, for some people, with continued 
practice of TMSP.

As for placebos, I think the whole field of placebos is in its infancy. 
Meaning, until we know more about the human mind and the nature of the universe 
and how the two are connected, then we might come to a lot of non beneficial 
conclusions about placebos.
 

 On Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:34 AM, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com 
wrote:
 
   I'm not sure what field independence is but I'm worried that you think 
there's anything you can do that might affect how placebo's work. I think TM 
makes people more suggestible not less. It's why they always have the 
knowledge tape after the meditation session, it's when you mind is most 
relaxed and open and therefore susceptible. 
 

 It also reinforces the belief in things like the mind settling into finer 
levels of existence. How often was I told that the words weren't important 
because I was absorbing it unconsciously, and I was happy about that. LOL! Glad 
I started thinking about it all pretty quick
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote :

 turq, research and my own experience indicates that field independence 
develops in TMers. That alone would decrease and or prevent any alleged placebo 
effect and strengthen a person's ability to divorce from it. I think this is 
one of the greatest benefits of TM. It liberates. Even from itself.

Plus I doubt than a placebo effect, even if it occurred in the beginning, can 
last for decades! Especially if a person has very little contact with the TMO.

Lastly, again going by my own experience, I'd say that the language of the 
sutra doesn't matter as a person's awareness settles into finer levels of 
existence.
 

 On Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:17 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... wrote:
 
   I think one can make a case that they are. Here, I'll start...

First, let's look at the basic TM technique, which uses Sanskrit mantras 
described by the TMO as meaningless sounds (which are really the names or 
calling cards of Hindu gods and goddesses, as anyone who can read books from 
India would know) as a mechanism for meditation. You *could* make a case that 
there is something special about these mantras, some sonic quality that 
actually facilitates meditation, because of course they have no meaning to most 
of the people who think them. 

But that's not true for the TM-Sidhis. As anyone who has ever learned them 
knows (but gets really, really uptight when someone like myself points out), 
what you paid thousands of dollars for (a good argument for the Placebo Effect 
in itself) were a number of *English language phrases* straight from a 
translation of the Yoga Sutras, all of which very *definitely* have 

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