Perfect Madness: From Awakening to Enlightenment by Donna Lee Gorrell (daughter of THE famous jazz musician of the same middle name) I was naive when my spiritual journey began, I wanted growth without change, wisdom without experience, security without sacrifice, and life without death. I wanted to swim in the waters of eternity without getting wet. Instead, I found myself immersed in unfathomable darkness with no trace of where I'd been and no glimmer of where to go, lost in the void of my own mind and convinced I was going crazy. I had no way of knowing I was on the path to enlightenment. We find ourselves slipping deeper into uncharted layers of consciousness. Our comfort zone of sameness feels violated. One moment our mind is flooded with understanding; the next on the brink of insanity. Self-doubt permeates our being, and we experience symptoms paralleling mental illness, even borderline psychosis. We wonder if the only difference between insanity and sanity lies in the ability to BE crazy without ACTING crazy. From Jean Klein Transmission of the Flame page 65 ...We have very often repeated that the seeker is the sought. An object is a fraction; it appears in your wholeness, in your globality. When you really come to the understanding that the seeker is the sought, there is a natural giving-up of all energy to find something. It is an instantaneous apperception. I don't say perception, because in perception there is a perceiver and something perceived. An apperception is an instantaneous perceiving of what is perceiving. So it can never be in relation of subject-object, just as an eye can never see its own seeing. ...you will find a glimpse of non-subject-object relationship. This glimpse is seen with your whole intelligence, which is there in the absence of the person, the thinker, the doer. Understanding, being the understanding, is enlightenment
TomT: Have Fun! Barry: Always. You, too, I trust... TomT: It seems that is our purpose or so it seems. Barry: This could be interpreted as a throwaway comment on your part, but I don't see it as one, because I thoroughly agree. I think that fun is one of the most misunderstood principles in the universe, and the one that can show us the most about whether we're as on the path as we think we are. TomT: This takes us back to a conversation we had a few years ago about appreciation. Fun is the gross version of appreciation. I some times use them interchangeably even though they are not. It appears to me now, that appreciation is our finest purpose and that ultimately leads to intimacy with it all. For me it seemed to be ever increasing amounts and degrees of appreciation and then the intimacy kicked in like the Saturn Booster Rocket. Things have not been the same since. It is now a love affair with it all and it is all me. Tom
Barry writes snipped: Have fun. TOm Always. You, too, I trust... TomT: It seems that is our purpose or so it seems. Anyway it seems a lot that laughter is the constant and that being around people is the source of amusement. The recognition there is only one of us and it has our flavor because we are the experiencer is a real hoot after all these years of chasing, seeking and being on the path and to find we are IT. Thanks for all the joy that comes from reading all the ways I can express myself. Tom
Barry writes snipped: I'm completely *comfortable* with the notion of there being a Saganesque billions and billions of realities. That poses no problem for me whatsoever. TomT: For me it appears to be a Baskin and Robbins store with trillions of flavors and ultimately the only thing you can know is the flavor of you the perceiver. It has your flavor as it is filtered through the DNA you are made of. You impart the flavor by the act of perceiving. Have fun. TOm
stu writes snipped: In all cases, free will is adopted and rejected by people regardless of their proclivity towards faith. However, I am ever suspicious of anyone's arguments if they involve themselves with faith. If they are willing to accept one notion without adequate evidence what then of their other notions? Sounds to me like a lot of guesswork. TomT: In my experience relating Free Will and awakening I have come to see that Awakening is absolutely FREE. But it will Cost you every concept you have about it. Secondly it WILL happen because it is who you are and all you do is get to see that which has always been right under your nose. As one of my friends likes to say You'll find IT in the last place that you don't look. Tom
New Morning posts snipped: But then again, you don't really know, at all, right? TomT: When the Knowing is Known by the ultimate Knower there is no where left to go. This is the one and only Knower knowing its creation through its own Self. From the totality of creation to point value it is all Knower and Knower can know through the totality and the point value simultaneously. All the ocean in a drop. Same. That is my experience. TomT
Barry writes snipped: In the same way that some of the subjectopaths here seem to believe that If I believe it, it's 'truth,' Edg believes that If I *feel* it, it's 'truth.' TomT: I was reading a newsletter today and learned of a law called Benford's Law of Controversy that states that passion in any argument is inversely proportional to the amount of real information advanced. Cool! Tom
Angela writes snipped: Really good description. When witnessing sleep, you can sometimes see the moment when the body drifts from waking into sleeping, and you can feel surprised at some distance from it all that there is hardly any difference. And the surprise contains the further notion that if there is hardly any difference between deep sleep and waking, then how much difference can there really be between life and death. TomT: I combined two of angela's responses so I could chime in on both. I recently had the experience of watching the picture in the mind go from a static still to a movie like action shot as in dreaming. I was fascinated by how it went from still to movie in a moment and that I was aware of it happening. The fascination led to a lets see that again. It went back to the still shot and then the movie. Watched the transition half a dozen times just for the giggle effect. There seemed to be a lot of understanding that was going on as I watched it back up and then start over again as a movie. Having had a NDE (Near Death Exp)it has been very much a certainty for me that sleep/awake life/death is only a slight shift in POV. I once made a comment to some friends that the only way I will know this body is really dead is if someone comes up and tells me as I really won't know the difference. Tom
--- Larry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I had noticed that at the instant of falling asleep, that thoughts became less frequent, discontiguous and random - - - so I will occaisionally reproduce that to encourage sleep. Angela writes: Yeah, I can enter that state at will also. I think you can control the mechanism that generates the random thoughts and turn to that directly. TomT: I just recently went up to the dental clinic in Iowa City to have deep root cleaning on my teeth. It is an interesting exp. where they first clean the teeth and then they scrape the roots of your teeth to get all the stuff that is attached all the way deep down. Had to go twice it order to do all that needed it. Had the same exp. both times that after they did the surface teeth part and stuffed the mouth with cotton I was able to go to that place where no time exists. The student was impressed that I could sleep through this process without Novocaine. I told him that it was just part of my meditation process. TomT
Barry writes snipped: I'm just suggesting that it doesn't. Belief EQUALS only belief. Presented AS belief, or opinion, I have no problem with anything anyone says. Presented as truth, I might have to speak up and point out that IMO it isn't. That's all. TomT: Any belief is just another addiction or you can use the word attachment if you like the sweeter truth. Tom
Steve writes snipped: There is not a system of conflict resolution in the TMO and so the frustration only leads to two choices--accept the way it is or leave. TomT: There is a saying around FF that graduating from the movement is hard as the only way to do that is to get thrown out. All baby birds get thrown out of the nest. The movement was built and continues to exist for seekers. When you are a finder you do not fit in anymore, they find out and you get graduated. Some here find that disconcerting. For me it is time of rejoicing. One more found and lots more to go. Tom
Amarnath writes snipped: After full Awakening, in this phase, There is nothing but Self ! ( which is Awareness, Bliss, God, Love, whatever ). In this ?final? phase, I am also my experiences. But 'I' and 'me' are no longer personal supposedly and neither is the Bliss ( it's of a different impersonal quality now). Some who are having experiences may dispute the latter. I don't know at this point. TomT: And then after that it goes back to being very personal and highly intimate as the next phase of some inward and outward flux. The reason it is now personal again is that the I/me are everywhere I look and everything that falls in my attention. I am really all of creation. My point value is all creation and I can know through the point value and through the totality simultaneously. It has been this way a number of years and at this point it has not become impersonal again but they may be a possibility although I can not see how. Tom
Peter writes snipped: Then bliss is like a dead dog in the road! Bliss is the darshan of Brahman, but not Brahman. TomT: Yes but if the indicator is there then attention and appreciation of what is going on in the moment surely leads to the understanding of Brahman. Appreciation is the tool that leads attention to the understanding. The experience is the body's way of handling the knowledge that is present in the moment. Paying deep attention and asking the experience itself for the knowledge it has for you will yield the results. If the understanding were complete we would have virtually no experience of bliss but rather would be processing what was happening as knowledge. At any moment we can go back to the most profound of our past experiences and ask for the knowledge that is contained in them. The bliss is the body storing the knowledge until it can be handled. The body is the hard drive for holding the knowledge until it can be appreciated as whole and full knowledge. Tom
Curtis writes snipped: At first I sort of resisted using a mantra since I do experience a similar state without one once I close my eyes and let silence dominate my attention. I didn't want to link the experience to my past practice to hopefully avoid some of the conceptual baggage. This worked out well for a while, but then the old engine started up and I had to decide if I cared enough to actively stop it. I decided around the time Maharishi died that this was kind of silly. TM may not be the only way to gain a state of meditation, but it clearly is the one I have put the time into. TomT: I have had the experience of seeing/knowing that all of the mantras/sutras/advanced techniques I was ever taught have become part of the vibratory quality of my own DNA. I was meditating one day and began to see each of the tools that were given and practiced had moved into and become part of my base DNA and it was a way of knowing my self. It was kind of funny as I am a pretty pure Pitta guy so most of my experiences are of the visual nature. This one day I was looking for a long time at something I did not understand until it was an Ah Ha moment and then it was this is my DNA. From that it was a way of seeing where and how each of these tools had been placed. Interesting and revealing and then the words MMY once said made sense to me. This stuff is very sticky. If we don't practice it it runs itself like a subroutine on the cellular level. That and a buck will get you a small cup of coffee. Tom
Alex Stanley posts snipped: FEAR = False Evidence Appearing Real TomT: Attribution to Neale Donald Walsh, Conversations with God book 1 near the end of that volume. Tom
Barry writes snipped: What I couldn't agree with less is his sugges- tion that the enlightened can do anything they want and actually be enlightened. In my book the enlightened still produce karma, and thus still can create negative karma and suffer the results of it if they perform negative actions. TomT: The statement that seems to spring to mind is that the Awake notice that Brahman is the charioteer. Nobody seems to get that there are times when Brahman comes out with the saddle, whip and spurs and you can guess who the steed is. Enough spurs and whip and YOU WILL do what is required. Tom
from the last chapter of Patanajali: #29 One who has attained complete discrimination between the subtlest level of mind and the Self has no higher knowledge to acquire. This is dharma megha samadhithe state of Unclouded Truth. #30 It destroys the causes of suffering, and the bondage of action disappears. #31 Knowledge which has been freed from the veils of impurity is unbounded. Whatever can be known is insignificant in its light. #32 This samadhi completes the transformations of the gunas and fulfils the purpose of evolution. #33 Now the process by which evolution unfolds through time is understood. #34 The gunas, their purpose fulfilled, return to their original state of harmony, and pure unbounded Consciousness remains, forever established in its own absolute nature. This is Enlightenment.
New Morning writes snipped: Its sort of parallel the motivations of posters. One poster threaten not to read my post if I did not change some style element. (Are there any other benefits?). I tried to explain, that I had little interest in who or how many read my posts. That is not the fruit of writing them. The fruit is in .figuring out some idea. To let a flash, a sankalpa, a seed idea, develop. Thats it. If someone then also reads the post, and we engage in a nice conversation, thats a good thing too. An added benefit. But not the goal. I am happy with my process of posting as a way to work out ideas. If no one reads it, I am still fulfilled. TomT: From my experience, desires now manifest as full blown projects. From the beginning or seed of the the thought about what might be fun to do is the feeling of having completed the project in the inception of the idea to go have some fun doing this project. The project may take months of attention but there never seems to be any frustration about how this project is proceeding or when it will reach some finish point. For instance Cindy and I realized that we had a big boat that we could no longer afford to run every weekend on the Mississippi and our dinghy at 11 feet was too small for the heavy cruiser traffic of folks who have the money to run them. We use our houseboat as a cottage and needed to find a 16 to 18 foot runabout that we could have fun on the river and still afford the gas. I looked, as the retired senior, with nothing better to do with my time. There were many boats that came up but none ever seemed to be just the right thing. Cindy of course was telling her mom about our progress through out the summer in their weekly phone chats. Suddenly in the fall we received a note from Cindy's mom that she was going to lend us the old 16 foot family runabout that had been sitting in the garage unused and unlicensed for the past 6 years. The price was right and it was another whole project bringing this old fiberglass boat back to life but this project has a sense of fullness to it that has been fun. The work we are doing seems very satisfying and there is more fun and more work to do. Who would have thought that when this project (desire) started it would have ended up this way. You just do the next step and see where it takes you. After Cindy's mom saw the work I had done and how the boat began to look like it did back in 1963 she gave Cindy the title as a recognition that we cared and were taking good care of this old boat that had brought Cindy's family a great deal of fun and joy over a long number of years. The journey has been and continues to just be fun. The satisfaction is in the process. Tom
Peter writes: Ravi Shankar actually wanted to teach what he had cognized while in silence (Sudashan Kriya) within the structure of the TMO. MMY told him to teach on his own. He didn't leave the TMO for over a year after that. While I see Chopra and SSRS as very different from one another (one gives interesting talks and the other functions as a guru)both have greatly contributed to to the rising spirituality on the planet. TomT: MMY made a serious threat when he said I will turn all of you into Maharishis. Of course some got there earlier than others. Also, there is room for only one Maharishi in the organization that MMY built. MMY delivered on his threat. The pieces fell out where they did. Tom
bwaytheatrediva writes: Hi everyone. I'm 23 years old and I've lived in FF my whole life. I have a huge amount of bitterness/hatred toward the TMO. It was shoved down my throat from literally the moment I was born. MSAE was a kind of hell that I wouldn't wish on anyone. A lot of the people I love most are in the TMO. I always say I hate the cult, but I dearly love some of the people in it. Anyway, that's my intro. I look forward to talking with you. TomT: I am a 66 year old senior who has been with the TMO for 35 years. I have 2 kids who are 40 and 44. When they were young my former wife and I took them out of one of the best school systems available and put them into a new hippy open free school which we paid tuition on top of our very high school taxes. We thought we were doing the right thing in giving them a more unstructured experience where their creativity would blossom. On the one hand my 44 year old daughter did marvelously and ended up as a very talented graphic artist. On the other hand my 40 year son ended up lost in that loose and artsy environment. When we put him back into public school he was formally labeled ADD and the system spent the next 8 years of his schooling making up for the fact that he was lost and was unable to function at anything near his age level. Bottom line we thought we were doing the right thing. Who can ultimately say whether it was good bad or indifferent. As Byron Katie has said, the reason I know it is perfect is because that is the way it went down. If it was meant to be different it would have been. Get some distance,get out of Dodge and see how your life unfolds.
New Morning writes snipped: Or posit a universe where everything is me. All action becomes purely selfish. And yet surprisingly, some good may come of it. TomT; Welcome to my universe. Thanks
We lived in a house back East that was built in 1976 and no natural gas hook ups were allowed when it was built. When I moved in we had a 60 gallon electric hot water heater that was very expensive to run. Moved to 2 electric instant hot water heaters. Expensive as it required two 220 X 40 amp lines one for each of the two heaters required. Worked well for us and took up no space as each box is the size of a cigar box. Still expensive but cheaper than the 60 gal, but only came on when needed. Since we were at the boat on weekends for 7 months of the year. We switched from an oil furnace to gas in 1996 and also switched from electric to a regular 40 gal gas heater. Cost went down significantly. With the electric instant on demand heaters the only way to get hot water is to restrict the flow through them to 2 gals per minute. That is not what most Americans are used too. I have heard that the instant gas heaters are better at getting hot water quickly and the flow rate can be higher. We did not have the option of instant gas when we installed the electric instant. When the water outside was near the 34 to 35 range it was warm but not hot water. The frost line where we lived was down about 6 to 8 feet. THink longer winter than FF. Because of the efficiency of the gas I would look hard at the gas if you are going to go to an instant heater. Tom
Definition given by Chopra: When one feels good for no reason. As a matter of fact one wonders how one could feel good when all that stuff is in the fan and one still feels good. TOm
The good news about the missing posts is that we only have to look at half of the Judy/Barry Exchange. There is a bright side to all happenings if we look deep enough.
tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis wrote: The good news about the missing posts is that we only have to look at half of the Judy/Barry Exchange. There is a bright side to all happenings if we look deep enough. bhairitu writes Never click on them and you'll never have to read any of them. But I bet your curiosity gets the best of you, doesn't it? :-D TomT: There seems to be this hope that someday they will both grown up and give it up. Thank God for the reduction in the number of posts. Actually they both can be very charming and have some great insights as long as they don't read each others stuff. Seems like they can not resist the back and forth. It only takes one of them to totally quit and that would really p*ss off the other. Imagine no one left to joust with. As Gorbachev said to Reagan We are going to do something awful to you. We are going to deprive you of an enemy. What better oneupmanship than to leave the other with no to blame and rail against. Sounded like Barry was leaning in that direction. Lets see how long he can stay on the wagon. Tom
Doug Hamilton writes snipped: Good stories often turn on a presence of mind that has someone stand resolved. Well told stories do tell what someone was thinking or doing `walking in those shoes' and sometimes a good story just helps you stand where someone stood for a moment. TomT: Susan Herzberger (a TMer in FF who has been awake since 85) explained it as story has the ability to by pass all the alarms of the modern and sophisticated mind and get directly to the reptilian mind where the message is taken in whole hog. Seems great teachers use them to change minds without the permission of those listening to the story. Tom
Judy writes: snipped This model is designed to make people feel stupid if they're still lacking the realization, as if there were something wrong with them for not having it--e.g., what should have been obvious, IGNORANT of what's been right in his face since the day he was born. It's the very worst kind of elitism, playing with words to exalt oneself and denigrate others. TomT: I did not use the word IGNORANT. I was very careful to use the root word of this sequence which is the word to IGNORE. If one is willing to consider that the basic human condition is the ability to IGNORE then there is no blame, no shame and no reason to IGNORE the opportunity to do a small amount of self inquiry. Just considering that this might be a way out of the quandary of being a seeker and not a finder has some possibility of moving out of a frozen position of the last 25 to 35 years. we learned to transcend in order to know IT when IT found us. Self inquiry might allow us to find the way our tricky minds work. I am only suggesting that we look at the possibility that the ability to IGNORE is just bad software and that there may be a way out through allowing us to see no bad guys, no blame, no shame and just a statement to be explored to see if it has any value to whomever. This is the true value of the intellect. As Patanjali put it chapter 3 last verse. When the translucent intellect is as clear as the SELF, there is Enlightenment. Tom
Another old posting from Tom T From Jean Klein Transmission of the Flame page 65 first para: ...We have very often repeated that the seeker is the sought. An object is a fraction; it appears in your wholeness, in your globality. When you really come to the understanding that the seeker is the sought, there is a natural giving-up of all energy to find something. It is an instantaneous apperception. I don't say perception, because in perception there is a perceiver and something perceived. An apperception is an instantaneous perceiving of what is perceiving. So it can never be in relation of subject-object, just as an eye can never see its own seeing. ...you will find a glimpse of non-subject-object relationship. This glimpse is seen with your whole intelligence, which is there in the absence of the person, the thinker, the doer. Understanding, being the understanding, is enlightenment.
Something I posted here a few years ago that seems revelant to this discussion. TOm Ignorance is nothing more that our ability to ignore that which we already are. A great many spiritual people have some pretty outstanding experiences, which cause them to move to deeper understandings. The key here is that all experiences are in, of, by, and about the relative. Those experiences do make a difference and move people to some relative understanding of who we are. When Self knows Self, this happens on the other side of the line. It is the absolute knowing itself. When that happens understanding gets imprinted on this small self physiology of the magnitude of what has happened, thus making it impossible to ignore who and what we have always been. The key is that if there is any doubt then the relative side of who we are has not yet had the clear understanding to make it unmistakable, undeniable and self-validating. Awakening is not an experience but an understanding brought about through clarity. A quote from Jean Klein from his book I AM page 85. In an experience there is still an experiencer who is stuck in the pattern of going in and out of states. Global understanding is the sudden awareness that the perceiver of these states is unaffected by them, that they appear in the perceiver. This insight occurs in a flash when all the fragments preventing us from understanding, yet which point towards it, unfold in the uninvolved witness. Awareness is the essential element allowing non-understanding to become understanding. It does not result from accumulation as when we learn something, a language or an instrument, for example. It is instantaneous like a flash of lightning where the various elements preceding it are suddenly seen simultaneously and are re-orchestrated, just as the particles drawn by a magnet fall into a pattern when they become attached to it. This sudden vision can eliminate all previous problems without leaving the slightest shadow of non-understanding. This resorption into total understanding releases all the energies usually molded into set patterns and opens the way towards ultimate truth, oneness. (Tom comments, we could also use Wholeness or Fullness in lieu of Oneness.) Patanjali via Alistair Shearer verse 55 and last of Chapter 3, Expansion. Which is where all the sidhis are enumerated and is of course the prescribed result of practicing them which is why it is the last verse of this chapter. And when the translucent intellect is as pure as the Self, there is Enlightenment
One other thing to add to the stew from one of my long lost posts.Tom Enlightenment is not an experience it is an understanding that comes when the intellect makes the final discrimination. The understanding does not happen in any mind. Self knows Self. The knowing of Self is so strong as to leave no doubt about what has transpired. That knowing imprints on the small self what is known to be beyond the ability of any mind to know. It is the expression of the lively absolute playing out in a physiology. Brahmin looks out through these eyes, talks through this mouth and animates this body. The cosmic Self comes to the forefront and the small self is content to run the relative life. Nothing in your life changes and yet everything in your life changes. It is the ultimate Paradox, which is the clue as to the profundity of what has just transpired.
Barry writes snipped: And again, you are assuming the unenlightened model, which believes that progress *has* to be made towards enlightenment. If you shift to another equally accurate model and description of the process -- that everyone is always already enlightened and that the *only* thing that marks enlightenment is a realization of what has always already been going on -- then there is no progress possible. TomT: The reason it is called ignorance is that one actually is able to ignore that which they always have been and will always be. It is not called stupid or smart or arrogant or gratuitous or a lie it is called IGNORANCE. Name and form.
sandiego108 writes snipped: I think what Maharishi says about the Bindu is that it contains all that there is, within all that there is. So there is not a Bindu of singularity inside of that which is not of the same essential nature as the Bindu. Rather, from any point in all that there is, that chosen point can be isolated, the Bindu point, which then is found to also contain all that there is; a point of Infinity, within Infinity. There is nothing which is not Bindu. Tom T: When the Knowing is Known by the ultimate Knower there is no where left to go. This is the one and only Knower knowing its creation through its own Self. From the totality of creation to point value it is all Knower and Knower can know through the totality and the point value simultaneously. All the ocean in a drop. Same. TomT
Reminds me of the story of the women who had been married three times and was still at virgin. The first time she married an 80 ish multimillionaire who took one look at her body had a fatal heart attack and she inherited gazillions. The next guy she married was because he was so so handsome and he wanted her money and girls was just not his thingy. The third time she married a TM teacher who kept her up all night telling her how good it was going to be someday when she was enlightened. Tom
Someone today described the TM movement as The Bland leading the Bland Tom
Since Barry loves them noticed the new DVD list includes Two Lane Blacktop. This Monte Hellman 1971 road movie perhaps the definitive example of the genre has now come full circle. Oversold on its first release, when Esquire magazine printed its screenplay under the title Movie of the Year, the film was a commercial disaster but has continued to build an underground reputation. This month it was released on DVD by the Criterion Collection, which puts it as close as any movie can come to joining the official canon. A movie with very little talk and even less music, it stars two musicians: James Taylor as a nameless drag racer and Dennis Wilson as his mechanic. They pilot their gunmetal gray 1955 Chevy with concentrated but obscure purpose along Route 66, financing their odyssey by participating in local races. Austere enough to play saints in a Robert Bresson film, the two men are challenged, in body and spirit, by a smiling glad-hander (Warren Oates) who drives an orange GTO and never gives the same account of himself twice. Ominously, the Oates character has eyes for the hitchhiker (Laurie Bird) whom the two travelers have picked up along the way. URL http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/movies/homevideo/18dvds.html?_r=1ref=moviesoref=slogin TomT
HA Such an honor. Peter Sellers indeed. I always knew I was strange, but strange and kinky is even better. Thanks again. TOmT
knowing Barry's love of road trips thought he and others might like this ny times report on John McCain's mom and aunt with a 90 year history of bizarre road trips. Fun read. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/14/travel/escapes/14sisters.html?_r=1oref=slogin
Barry writes snipped: Me, too, but that would have taken away the conundrum aspect of it all, and most of the time I really *enjoy* that -- not knowing exactly what to think about it all. TomT: My experience is that the only thing I know for sure is I DONT KNOW! appears to be the operative word of every day. So be IT.
T3rinity writes snipped: Samayama on the lower forms would thus prepare the nervous system. purify it and make it subtle, which is its only purpose. Enlightenment itself cannot be given. It comes by itself by the recognition of the Self by Itself, so only purification is most important. So, to sum it up, actual attainment of Siddhis was not the goal, the way, Samayama is the goal. Tom T: Patanjali chapter 3 Sutra 55 And when the translucent intellect is as clear as the Self, there is Enlightenment.
Curtis writes snipped: I wonder if many movement people have any issues with BP? I would think that with a health conscious group this would be kind of a non issue. Certainly not enough to spend this much time on. Eat well, exercise, and hope you don't have a genetic pre-disposition for high blood pressure. Of course I could be way off with our aging mediators, maybe some of them have this problem now. Tom T; 34 years of TM and the last 9 years in FF, currently retired and Lotrel 5/10 has worked wonders. BP last spring was at 180 over 100 and the dentist refused to work on me, last time I had it checked three weeks ago it was 115 over 75. You take what you need and leave the rest. Tom
Barry writes snipped: Being able to perform siddhis doesn't make a person good, and being bad doesn't prevent a person from being able to do them. Used as some kind of measure of a person's enlightenment, the siddhis are just as big a failure as any other measurement you might imagine. TomT: As I have mentioned here a few times before I feel strongly they were just another misdirection to keep you on the path. Like the magicians waving of the one hand while the other hand is doing all the work. Who's ego wouldn't be fascinated by being able to fly and all that other stuff. The real work was being accomplished in the process of the technique. He told you what you wanted to hear while he was f*cking with your mind to get you to do what he wanted. Very clever and cagey old buzzard. Tom
Barry writes snipped: It's the same thing we see in those who feel that *their* subjec- tive experiences are better than other people's subjective experiences. Tom T: Another way to look at any and all experiences is as a storage device. We have an Experience and the reason we do is that we are currently unable to fully process all the knowledge that was presented by that Experience. As we go back into said Experience and ask it for the Knowledge or Understanding it has for us,we gradually take that Experience off the puja table and assimilate it into who we really are. In other words as we convert it from storage device to understanding it becomes less and less available as memory and just becomes accepted as who we are. Hope that rings a bell for some here. As in where did all those fantastic experiences go to. Tom
Rory Goff writes snipped: But to know itself as Self is not like any other knowledge, which is indeed dualistic and based on a comparison, on an either-or discrimination. That's why this Self-knowledge is so mind-blowing -- literally. It is so ordinary and so special, so still and so dynamic, so Dead and so Alive, so *this* and so *that* -- so slippery, so concrete, so in- your-face paradoxical. Literally unimaginable, literally unspeakable. Yet it IS; I AM. Discrimination cannot capture it; discrimination can only surrender awe-struck. TomT: From Jean Klein Transmission of the Flame page 65 ...We have very often repeated that the seeker is the sought. An object is a fraction; it appears in your wholeness, in your globality. When you really come to the understanding that the seeker is the sought, there is a natural giving-up of all energy to find something. It is an instantaneous apperception. I don't say perception, because in perception there is a perceiver and something perceived. An apperception is an instantaneous perceiving of what is perceiving. So it can never be in relation of subject-object, just as an eye can never see its own seeing. ...you will find a glimpse of non-subject-object relationship. This glimpse is seen with your whole intelligence, which is there in the absence of the person, the thinker, the doer. Understanding, being the understanding, is enlightenment
n Nov 18, 2007, at 11:43 AM, ffl_topic_heading_editor wrote: Give the process several weeks. If it is not useful, it can be abandoned. After this initial resettting of topic headings, I anticipate that this will not be needed any more than 2-5 times a week. And tapering down from there -- as people begin to change their topic headings naturally, as it becomes habit. JOOC, is this new morning here? Sal TomT: Yes that is new morning there playing emperor and relishing every moment. He is the one who has complained so bitterly of the total lack of control and order in this place. All hail the chief.
New Morning et al: Actually my question was quite simple. Do people believe or experience that the practice of TM (and/or siddhis) improves day to day behavior and activity? Any takers? Tom T; My experience is Yes. That does not mean that from time to time certain people experience me as someone that do not see that way. I can say that it has happened here in this forum in the past and I can not predict it will not happen again. There are certain people we are destined to do some dance with. I feel that I may do the dance better or less harshly now but I still find myself involved with some here in such a situation. Thanks for allowing me to admit that humanity is still running strongly and being human doesn't ever stop. Tom
I thought that the guys you picked to show me were much to handsome. I am much fatter and have all gray hair. Great shots of the gang on Weds nite. Enjoyed this very much. Tom
Angela writes: If you guys find this hymn, please let me know. It's my favorite, and the pages where it should be are missing from my copy of the tenth mandala. a TomT; Revelations has a ton of copies if you wish to update yours. Or on the other hadn stop in get a cup of coffee and read what you want when you want to at no additional cost.
New Morning posts snipped: Big important issues (to you) -- and for which you have the time, attention and sometimes money to investigate more deeply, deserve deeper,more systematic investigations. TomT: On NPR this AM an interview about the changing of the guard at the Chinese Politburo. Small decisions need to happen if front of a very large audience. Big decisions happen in front of a very small group and Very large decisions happen with no group. Seemed like a nice comment on the way things work in some places. Tom
As Jed McKenna wrote in his second book Spiritually Incorrect Enlightenment. Life is free fall forever. A lady commented Yah! and everything is Teflon coated. Tom T
Vaj writes snipped; Actually the way it's taught by lineal Patanjali masters is that siddhis are not to be cultivated via samyama but instead are spontaneous side-effects of samadhi. Swami Brahmananda Saraswati emphasized this as well. TomT: As I have stated previously The sutras are not a prescription for awakening, but a description of an awakened life. Tom
Barry writes snipped: In other words, it's not the words that provide the finger pointing to the moon. It's the fact that the enlightened being's *attention* is on the moon that makes it lively, and that allows others to get a feeling for the moon and what it is like, even though the puny words will never do justice to it. That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it... :-) Tom T: It is my experience that the awake being puts their *attention* on the person asking questions about the moon. The questioner is open to the attention of the A being and that attention on the person while the moon is being talked about. Leaves the questioner with both the experience of the moon and the knowledge about the moon that the A person can impart. Both are present in any situation where a question is asked. Hard to resist when both experience and knowledge are aroused in one physiology. Again not my theory but my experience and that may change at any moment. Enjoy Tom
Barry writes in his summary: So have a go at it, eh? And if you are able to come up with some statement -- any statement -- that is true for all beings, in all periods of time, in all contexts, and when viewed from all states of consciousness, *then* come back and tell me how accurate you believe the words of the supposedly enlightened are when describing what it's like. I'll wait. Tom T: You have now *got* the Byron Katie system down pat. Her questions lead one to the conclusion you are asking those here to come to. Awesome!. Tom
New Morning et al snipped : But my view doesn't include a SHOULD, its more of a visionary could. TomT: Absolutely agree. But in order to spring fully into the could I find I need to see the perfection of what IS and not as a static IS but an everchanging, ever perfect IS. As one friend recently commented. The only thing he is absolutely sure is the very next moment. After that all bets are off as IS likes to keep it all in ever changing change. New M et al: Thats a nice poetic vision. But clearly you are not offering it up as an inevitable, tightly honed causal relationship. Tom T; That is exactly what I am saying and that was the message I heard from her. It is also my experience of how I live my life. Since this all me the closest and most effective place to work on the could is right here at home inside (or outside depending on the day)the one thing I have the most knowledge about and the greatest place I have the chance of seeing my could is right here and now on my obvious defects of character. Change it here and it changes there. Really too simple and the easiest place to focus. Find out what part of me the could can come to life in and then see what happens to the rest of Me. New: Sort of parallel to, greatly paraphrasing, the consciousness of christ stretch so tightly over the entire surface and scope of the universes it makes you shiver. -- per larry of madision. Tom: Actually it is scary as heck. It will change how you see the creation when it is all You. Enjoy Tom PS: Will be traveling for 10 days starting Thursday so I may not a chance to respond for a while.
New morning snipped: And ME has always seemed a strained description or metaphor. More apt would be we, but that still implies many and doesn't feel like that. The well is one. To equate this Oneness Well with this localized apparatus -- which in common language is called me, doesn't fit my experience (and that is not the possessive form of me, its the elsewhere form of me). But this experience may be different from others. TomT: It was my experience for a while that Me had gone away. In retrospect it became obvious that little me was overwhelmed by the immensity of the wholeness that creation Is. As this experience was settled into and more knowledge was forthcoming it became obvious there really was still an I but it was not the same I that seemed to have gotten overwhelmed. Eventually it all filled up as the fullness of I but again that is not the same I that seemed to go away. THis new I, was the understanding of the wholeness and the paradox of being an individual and being cosmic at the same time. Tom
Barry concludes: Oh, that we all had more of that same Beginner's Mind more of the time in other discussions... TomT: At the large course in DC in 1993 we were shown videos to pass the day between extended rounds. One day they showed a video entitled: Advanced Jyotish for Beginners. As usual I had to laugh a lot as the incongruity of the title gave me more knowledge that the video. One of the high born from Europe lead a very valiant effort to stop my laughter which only made the matter worse as that too seemed pointless. Soon most of the people in the room were also laughing just for the sheer fun of laughing. The video was boooring but the laughter and giggles were worth having to sit through it all. Changed my view on how to judge a book or video by its cover. If it makes you laugh it has done a great job. Tom
Barry writes snipped: Transmission (or empowerment) kinda cuts through the crap of language and its inability to express the inexpressible. It also cuts through the crap of the intellect, in that one doesn't have to try to imagine what is being discussed; it is here and now, part of one's experience. Tom T: Patanjali last verse of chapter 3. When the translucent intellect is as clear as the Self, There is Enlightenment. Doesn't seem like a crappy intellect to me. My experience is the intellect is the finest level of discrimination. That is the job of the intellect. The only way one can know the here and now is the finest discriminating aspect of the intellect. It is also my experience that the process of talking about IT brings IT into the relative so others can notice IT. The words become 100% IT and are the process for others to notice and become at home with IT. Tom
New Morning et al: writes snipped ___Thus, for example, I understand, directly, that thoughts, and the subset of thoughts called desires, is not from any individualities' effort. Thus, the nuance, that might be sympathetic and understanding of Jim's and Rory's apparent position of: they don't desire the end to suffering in Iraq because they are not in control of such a desire, and such a thought never arose in them. (On of the several things that is odd, IMO, here is that EVEN if the thought to end suffering did not arise in them, at all, through natural observation and interaction with the world, then at least it was introduced to them as a possibility in the on-line discussion. And yet the thought to help the suffering in Iraq never arises in me, thus how can I fulfill that desire is the thought that still arises in them.) TomT: In the past I have shared here an experience at the end of a Byron Katie weekend workshop where she asked three questions of the 100+ folks on the weekend. 1. Who is Happy with their weight? 2. Who is happy with the way they look? 3. WHo is happy with their life?. If you are happy leave your hand down, if you answered No to any of the question then put up your hand. There were only three hands down in a sea of NO's. most folks were unhappy with their lot after a full weekend of focusing on Loving What IS. By the way Byron announced to the entire group that when they could be happy with the hand that was dealt to them then the War in Iraq was over for them. There seems to be an understanding that comes with the knowledge of who you are that it is all me and the only place I can fix is in me. The only place I have any control over is in me. The best thing one can do for all of creation is to deal with my monsters inside me and see how that changes me and the universe. The final verses of the Shiva sutras states it in a way that I find appealing. Third awakening from Swami Lakshmanjoo version 40. By the slight appearance of individual desire, one is carried far away from the state of God Consciousness. 41. By firmly establishing one's own Self in the state of Turiya, all desires disappear and individuality is lost into universality. 42. Such a yogi is liberated in life and as his body still exists, his is called bhuta-kanchuki - having his physical body as a mere covering just like an ordinary blanket. Hence he is supreme and one with the universal Self. 43. After remaining in this state of universal Transcendental God Consciousness, the functions of inhalation and exhalation automatically take place with the object that this whole universe of action and cognition is united in God Consciousness. 44. When one contemplates on the center of Universal Consciousness, what else remains there to be sought in the practice of prana, apana, and sushumna? 45. When a Shiva-yogi is completely established in God Consciousness, he experiences this state spontaneously within and without or both. I take verse 45 to mean that some will see all things inside them. others will see all things as me but appearing to be outside as opposed to inside me, and some will have it both ways. Rory and I got into it one day in a conversation as he definitely sees it all inside him. I on the other hand see it as all me but my inside is splattered all over creation so it feels like it is outside. When I finally found the above reference in verse 45 it all made sense and we both could then understand the other. TOm T PS by the way verses 41 and 42 are not a prescription but a description of how it goes down.
Some additional things that came up whilst the eyes were closed. In chapter 2 of Patanjali verses 34 and 35 (close quess as my copy is still in a box somewhere). #34 goes like this. When the person is established in truthfulness all actions achieve the desired results. #35 When the person is established in integrity all riches flow. Again this not a prescription but rather a description of how the awakening unfolds. Toms Take: Until we are established in truthfulness about our dark sided monsters how can we achieve the desired result of saving the earth. First we know the truth about who we are light and dark both and then we can be in integrity about our actions. Until we are willing to tell ourselves the truth about us raw and uncensored we can not achieve the desired result. We don't have to tell others but we need to discover the truth for our own self. Tom
Bronte posts snipped: When another person's belief is so out of line with our own opinions and assumptions, it's almost impossible to bend the mind to form an opening large enough to consider the radical possibility. I try to bend mine as much as possible. It's let me find a lot of interesting stuff. But I wonder how much of what may be real my assumptions still manage to block out. New Morning's questions make me wonder. Tom T: That is the exact point that Byron Katie is continually pointing out. When one finds oneself getting all wound up by opinions/truths of others there has to be an underlying belief hidden away in us that is causing the flames to rise and the smoke to come out our ears. Like the old joke goes if the barn is full of manure there must be a horse/cow/mule in here somewhere. Examine all beliefs and see what is left. Tom
Marek writes snipped: And he wasn't talking about giving up your individuality or slavishly following a guru; only that some have experienced that blasting away of the individual and the realization that I/It -- *Is* -- not even One but beyond the concepts of 'One' and 'other'. And, if I follow what Turq was referring to correctly, the catalyst to that realization (whether temporary or permanent) may come from a guru, but it can just as easily come from any other source. Once is all it takes to change everything and as Turq said, after that the desires and the individualities just don't have as firm a hold as they did prior. Tom T: As one lady so apply noted. All things are for evermore Teflon coated. Nothing to hang onto and it is just fine that way. Tom
Barry writes snipped: So please don't take offense if you're still way into a subject and want to pursue it and I don't want to play. It's only that I've used the original subject as inspiration and am now off up some tributary that seems more interesting to me. And I'm probably up there without a paddle, but I'm having fun. TomT: Loved your piece and your love of writing shines through clearly. It kind of reminded me of the saying that you can not stand in the river of time. It keeps on moving. We all do. Your work is appreciated from this end. Tom
from Perfect Madness, from awakening to enlightenment by Donna Lee Gorrell page 121: The third eye is the beacon to the inner universe that sees the inner and outer as inseparable. This eye sees all creation as unified and yet permits one to operate within the world of complexities and multitudes. The opening of the third eye is the opening of knowledge, which is understanding and experiencing---in unison---life's phenomena. When the third eye opens, the intellect and the emotions, thoughts and feelings, can finally work together--as one. The opening of the third eye is the pure and simple cognitive ability to see living Truth, unfettered and pure. Truth is not something we can put our finger on or file away as real or pertinent. It cannot even be written or talked about with any accuracy, for words are only pointers. The most amazing thing about the opening of the third eye is that it sees Truth as alive. Untouched by human intellect, unstirred by emotion, and undivided in its purpose. Truth is the living principle upon which the universe was and is created.
The basis of civility is to allow the perceived other the same thing that every one seems to want. Allow other the same freedom you demand for yourself without insisting you are absolutely perfectly right and have the perfect Truth. You are free to say what you will. I am free to respond and state my POV or my take. It only gets nasty here when ownership of what is RIGHT comes into the view. So What!. They are free to say what they will and I am free to ignore them. I download all of the postings via email and then immediately sort them by poster. Like Barry and others my read time is down to about 10 to 20% of the traffic. Some have nothing to say that interest me so why bother. If a miracle happens then someone else will surely pick up on it and I will read it in another posters reply. Works for me. Civility comes out of mutual respect and a desire to form a community. Lacking those two essential elements civil speech and behavior are not going to happen and can not be legislated. If there are some posters here who are not interested in mutual respect and a desire to form community it might be a suggestion to move on. We can determine who is willing and who is not. The group Conscience will know and the group will figure out how to handle it. Tom
From the book of the above name subtitled: From Awakening to Enlightenment by Donna Lee Gorrell (daughter of THE famous jazz musician of the same last name) from the top of the first para of the intro. I was naive when my spiritual journey began, I wanted growth without change, wisdom without experience, security without sacrifice, and life without death. I wanted to swim in the waters of eternity without getting wet. Instead, I found myself immersed in unfathomable darkness with no trace of where I'd been and no glimmer of where to go, lost in the void of my own mind and convinced I was going crazy. I had no way of knowing I was on the path to enlightenment. third para: We find ourselves slipping deeper into uncharted layers of consciousness. Our comfort zone of sameness feels violated. One moment our mind is flooded with understanding; the next on the brink of insanity. Self-doubt permeates our being, and we experience symptoms paralleling mental illness, even borderline psychosis. We wonder if the only difference between insanity and sanity lies in the ability to BE crazy without ACTING crazy. TomT: Seems to be describing some of the posters here. Enjoy., Tom
New Morning writes snipped: I suggest, perhaps, if you feel it true: Make a saint or anyone whose virtues you admire. Love them as a role model. Receive their blessings with openness, if such flows. Regardless, just admire those qualities. I do with Ingmar and Luccianno. Safe Passage. **end** Marek writes snipped: Well said, New.Morning. Recognizing any quality in someone is the recognition of that quality in yourself. What you put your attention on . . ., etc. Exaltation. TomT: Takes one to know one. You can not know it in other without knowing it in yourself first. Enjoy. TOm
Barry writes snipped: So some days I might fill his lap with flowers, and the next, Tootsie Rolls, or like today, let him wear my nose glasses, or maybe a funny hat. I think enough of the historical Buddha to believe that whatever makes me smile would make him smile. Tom T: Cindy and I used to go regularly to a small temple in Rochester NY which had a very nice 4 ft tall Saraswati Mukti. The priest would make sure that she had a Santa Claus hat on for the Christmas Holidays. Once in 1993 we went for the usual Friday night puja and she was dressed in the official T shirt of the summer of 93 course in Washington DC (courtesy of Bill Witherspoon). Very funny and he would sometimes put a Groucho Marx mustache,funky glasses and the big nose on for Halloween. Seemed to fit in perfectly. IF we can't laugh than we are taking ourselves way to seriously. Tom
Jim Flanegin writes snipped: --he needs to be able to discriminate between reality and non-reality, regardless of how he expresses or doesn't express this ability. I am not a fan of overblown intellectual or academic arguments. A piercing intellect in an enlightened state need never be obviously expressed-- it just is.:-) Tom T: Patanjali final vs (55) of Chapter 3 When the translucent intellect is as clear as the Self. There is enlightenment.
Rick writes snipped: --- many have left because they got sick of the bickering, even if they didn't participate in it. You and the rest of the AMT crowd have been valuable contributors, and I would hate to lose you, but as I recall,FFL was a much more harmonious place before you all arrived. Tom T: Eggzactly. Anything and everything expressed her is nothing but an opinion, a POV. As Bryon Katie has so aptly pointed out there is no way any of us can ever know exactly the truth of any statement. The exasperation is in the continual insistence that any one person can know or have the divine insight to know what is true and what is a lie. Just give it up kids it is just another addiction or attachment if you like that word better. State your experience or understanding and let others have the liberty to do the same. We all are sick to death of it. If you insist then take it back to AMT where no one gives a sh*t what you say or do. Tom
Marek writes snipped: So I was wondering . . . if you could teach or impart just one thing to a person, the one thing or teaching or fundamental knowledge or wisdom that you had gleaned from your life experiences -- the thing that you would most want to share, the thing that you grokked the most -- what would it be? TomT: One thing I have found to be useful is to get people to be able to say. This is what wholeness looks like or feels like today. It is a subtle way to remind one that the wholeness of reality always appears as diversity and many times it is not the way we would like it to be. This gentle reminder puts the attention back on the wholeness of life while allowing the diversity of the BS of the relative to continue being what it has and will be. TOm
A former Purusha friend informed me that he knew from first hand experience that a monthly check was being sent to Jerry at least into the early 90's by one of the movements arms. TomT
Barry writes snipped: I say if you're going to have a limit, enforce it. Otherwise the assholes win. TomT: Eggzactly. When you instituted this policy he was adamant that you could not do this to him. He is still trying to have it his way. Shut him down, he has gone over before at the beginning and will continue to test your willingness to do the needful.
Judy writes snipped: In other words: He's very clear--remarkably clear-- that it's not that he's suddenly realized that the earth is really nothing but a congregation of vapours, or that other people have no more value than dust. He's not passing judgment on the earth and human beings, he's saying there's something wrong *with him* that he can't take pleasure in their magnificence. TomT: The inability to take pleasure from the ever changing relative is also another good description of the Dark Night of the Soul. Nothing in the relative does it anymore. NO THING. Stuck between the old mind habits of the relative and not quite firmly established in the wholeness. Tough place to be. great read http://www.themystic.org/print/dark-night.htm PS Thanks for both quotes Judy. There is a nice piece in Collision with the Infinite where Susan Segal surmises that most of Shakespeare was his attempt to live a life without and I or me. Quite well done.
Rory writes snipped: Anyone can react against the evil out there and act to change it, and most do. More power to them! But IME it takes real courage to root out the evil where it actually lies -- in our own beliefs, our own thoughts. That's when we truly end the war. Right action continues, as always. And IME the actions arising from Love and Peace and Bliss are infinitely more effective than those arising from pain and suffering and contempt and hatred -- i.e. from false beliefs and projections :-) TomT; I had the opportunity to spend an entire weekend with Byron Katie working on Loving What IS. At the conclusion she asked three questions Who is happy with their weight? Who is happy with the way they look or their appearance? Who is happy with the amount of money they have? If you were happy then leave hands down. If not happy then put the hands up. When she finished the third question about 97 out of 100 hands were up in the air. These folks had just finished a ton of exercises trying to get how to be happy with what is and they were willing to state publicly they didn't get it. Byron looked around the room and made the statement that when you are willing to give up the war within yourself the war in Iraq and the rest of the world would end. The outer is just a mirror for the internal landscape. The audience was stunned and began to get that you can not fix anything outside yourself if you have not done the work on the inside and stopped that internal war. Those who insist that the outside needs to be fixed are unwilling to do what it takes inside and would rather put it out side themselves and continue in denial that they are the root cause and effect. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I really enjoyed Barrys latest rap on being special. Read it deleted it and went to empty the trash bin. Oh the metaphor! Using Eudora the way to empty the trash bin is to go to Special on the menu select that and then select empty trash. Seems you have to choose special to empty the trash. Just enjoyed how that all came together. Thanks for the wonder of it all. Tom
Barry writes snipped: I think if you ponder this you'll come back with faith. Jim Flanegin responds snipped: An interesting and provocative statementthat we confirm our belief with regard to another's enlightenment primarily with faith. Faith for me plays a central role in my ongoing spiritual journey, but not in answering this particular question about whether or not someone is enlightened. Rather, faith comes in when my rational mind is pitted against my intuition. More specifically when intuitively I know what I must do in order to move my life forward, and yet all purely rational conclusions end either in contradiction or fear. So I gather my faith together like a parachute overhead, take a flying leap into the Infinite, and hope for a soft landing. Tom T: If one goes to the very large and heavy unabridged dictionary you can look up the definition of the word TRUST. There are about 20 definitions that deal with various people who have a fiduciary relationship with money that belongs to other people. The last two though are very different and go like this 21-- Information received from the intuitive side of the mind. 22--- Action taken regardless of the consequences. Jim I would like to suggest that your action above is much more fitting to the definition of trust as outlined in 21 and 22 above rather than Faith. Tom
New morning et al posts snipped: When the heart is full, one sees love in everything. A sweet radiant love -- emanating from everything. When one is Full of It, one sees That everywhere. In that sense, I think it is still a projection, a line, of a distinct, but out there not so significant personality. That is, until there is no line anymore. But then its silly to say It all is ME. There is no IT and the there is no ME when the line is gone. Then it makes as much or more sense to simple say Chocolate Pudding than to say Its ALL ME. Or ponder and grok the flip side -- that You are a projection of IT. It realizes that IT is YOU. And then the line disappears for It projecting itself onto you -- and Chocolate Pudding. (Then there is no more flip side.) TomT: The only reason anyone ever says Its all ME is that is how it feels. There is also a change in POV when one is willing to admit that is how it feels. By saying It is all ME one is willing to admit THAT am I. The way it is as IT or THAT is you living a life. By admitting and saying how it is one allows the further clarification of THAT is YOU which moves into THAT is THIS. And of course we can take it one step further and we end up with THATS ALL FOLKS!. Tom T
Barry writes snipped: You'll realize that there was never anything you could DO to escape from jail, because you were never in it in the first place. There IS no doing when it comes to escaping from the imaginary prison of self. I hope for your sake that this happens soon. I know that it'll happen, in spite of your self's efforts to keep it from happening. That's the magic of self realization -- even the self can't keep itself from realization. Tom T: As I said to one of the folks in FF the other day. You were doomed to awaken. She laughed heartily. That idea seemed to tickle her in a funny way. She had been on the path for the past 35 years and the idea she was doomed the entire time seemed to cause the contrast that allows us to laugh at ourselves.;
New Morning et al write snipped: Is it true? Can you absolutely know that it's true? How do you react when you think that thought? Who would you be without the thought? Can you turn it around? (Each turnaround is an opportunity to experience the opposite of your original statement and see what you are without your (original) thought) Or is (or do you imagine) Byron Katie is only for those ignirant souls who are not as enlightened as you? TomT: OK New the work is what you do to you not other. You have judged another so do the work on you. Answer the questions for your self and tell us your results. Interesting how it will play out.
Marek writes snipped: Also, I agree with you that when there is any experience of awakening, no matter how transitory, the hook would seem to have been set and the search for its permanency might begin in earnest. At least that's been many folks' experience, though Curtis at this point in time, seems to have come to a different conclusion regardless of how much he has enjoyed (or enjoys) what many would designate as 'spiritual' experiences or transient awakening. Tom T: To paraphrase Jean Klein from I AM. The awakening was (past tense) instantaneous, clarity takes place in space time. What made us seekers was that glimpse. 30+ years later clarity is dawning or has arrived. TomT
Barry concludes snipped: Another aspect of the enlightenment process that one tends to see in other traditions more often than in the TM movement is just *not caring* where one is at on the enlightenment scale. The moments of clear realization are neat, and the moments of unclear realization are neat, and the moments of non-realization are neat. There is no qualitative better or best among them. What is important in these traditions -- or in those individuals who feel this way -- is appreciating the moment itself, enjoying Now as much as it can be enjoyed, regard- less of its place on some kind of enlightenment scale. Tom T: From my experience in FF there are now a large number of TMers who are no longer seekers. They have found. As one of the Weds nite guys put it. I am no longer a seeker but knowledge is now appreciated in all phases of my life. He is always finding more knowledge in his day to day existence and yet as he sees it there is no end. I like the way Jed McKenna put it. Free Fall Forever. Or as a young lady described it to Gangaji Delightful Confusion.
Rory writes snipped big time: As for the rest, I'll just reiterate that I am not saying you guys are damaged -- just that you and Vaj (Curtis less so) seem self- condemned to repeat yourselves over and over, making broad, sweeping (and easily disputed) statements without ever getting to your personal integrity, to your undisputable personal experience, and to the core of your discontent, where IME great treasure lies. Tom T: Patanjali Chapter 2 verse 30 something When the person is established in Personal Integrity all actions achieve the desired result. Followed immediately by When the person is established in truthfulness all riches flow. Tom T
Bhairitu writes snipped: The results are disasterous. Limbaugh was obviously only a C student, but he is absolutely gifted in reducing gray issues into stark black and white. Give him credit for that. Tom T: Since our society is solidly running on the basic principles of addiction, people want all issues reduced to black and white pure duality. No fuzzy areas. Addicts can only function in the black and white environment. To see it clearly read, When Society becomes an Addict, Ann Marie Wilson Scheaf. Open your eyes and see how it all goes down. Tom
Dr Pete writes snipped: Different levels of practice: Gross, subtle and unmanifest. Gross is the actual behavioral asana with the body or changing the behavioral breathing of the lungs. Subtle is the change in the various koshas (subtle bodies) from the behavior, and unmanifest is the virtual structure or unexpressed/unmanifest seed of the asana or pranayama in pure consciousness. This last point is very difficult to express. Every thing in the manifest, time/space world is a virtual, unmanifest structure in consciousness. Tom T: Think of the unmanifest level as the code for your and all DNA. The code is in the unmanifest and when the code pops into the relative it begins to run and creates the DNA. From the Upanishads. There is no difference between your DNA and the DNA of all creation. Great piece of software.Tom
Judy writes: snipped The thing about Brahman, as Ken Wilber points out, is that It is One without a second, One without an opposite. If you say It is X, that means It is not not-X, which gives not-X an existence independent of Brahman; it gives Brahman an opposite, a second. TomT: Brahman is that in which both the Absolute and the Relative coexist and that which knows that is you. You are the glue that can know that both can exist and you are the only way that both can be know at the same time. That is why it is called the ultimate paradox. on the one hand is the relative (actually) and on the other hand is the absolute (actually). That which is the only thing that can know both of them as the singularity that is one without a second is you. Enjoy Tom
Barry writes snipped: Being forgotten. It fears oblivion. IMO, it's not even that the self fears death itself. Most selves have caught a clue and have realized that they're gonna die, and have come to some sense of comfort with that fact. But what the self fears is that it'll be completely forgotten when it dies, as if its life had made no difference whatsoever to the other lives it touched. TomT from reading Byron Katie she encourages all to focus on the Big Three that will generally cover all the fears. Fear of dying -- 1. Alone 2. Unloved 3. Broke you put them in the order that suits you. Seems to cover most eventualities. Tom
Vaj writes:snipped The basic reason often given is that cultivation of siddhis thru samyama causes one to become vyuthana or outward and attached to the outer world. Tom T The Sutras of Patanjali are a description not a prescription as so many have supposed. Read them after thirty years of practice and recognize how much of what is presented is now your day to day experience. Tom T
Tom T: More from Jean Klein: Transmission of the Flame page 65 first para: ...We have very often repeated that the seeker is the sought. An object is a fraction; it appears in your wholeness, in your globality. When you really come to the understanding that the seeker is the sought, there is a natural giving-up of all energy to find something. It is an instantaneous apperception. I don't say perception, because in perception there is a perceiver and something perceived. An apperception is an instantaneous perceiving of what is perceiving. So it can never be in relation of subject-object, just as an eye can never see its own seeing. ...you will find a glimpse of non-subject-object relationship. This glimpse is seen with your whole intelligence, which is there in the absence of the person, the thinker, the doer. Understanding, being the understanding, is enlightenment.
Edg writes snipped: Amness is illusory. A representation. A symbol. An activity of a nervous system that, partially only, it is as close as a map can be to the territory without being the territory. Brahma poses as Brahman and fools everyone, including Himself. Even the purity of amness cannot find purchase on the Absolute which cannot be stained by any conditional. Tom T: A quote from Jean Klein from his book I AM page 85. In an experience there is still an experiencer who is stuck in the pattern of going in and out of states. Global understanding is the sudden awareness that the perceiver of these states is unaffected by them, that they appear in the perceiver. This insight occurs in a flash when all the fragments preventing us from understanding, yet which point towards it, unfold in the uninvolved witness. Awareness is the essential element allowing non-understanding to become understanding. It does not result from accumulation as when we learn something, a language or an instrument, for example. It is instantaneous like a flash of lightning where the various elements preceding it are suddenly seen simultaneously and are re-orchestrated, just as the particles drawn by a magnet fall into a pattern when they become attached to it. This sudden vision can eliminate all previous problems without leaving the slightest shadow of non-understanding. This resorption into total understanding releases all the energies usually molded into set patterns and opens the way towards ultimate truth, oneness. (Tom comments, we could also use Wholeness or Fullness in lieu of Oneness.)
Edg writes snipped: Amness is not an experience. The ego is unified when one (ego) has transcended-dissolved into amness, so there's no one to experience anything -- other than our good old faithful Absolute. The Absolute is the only sentience -- amness is to Absolute as dummy is to ventriloquist. Tom T: from Sailor Bob's book by James Braha Energy, or belief in something, doesn't care which way it goes. Just like the current in an electric motor. Turn the switch one way, it goes forward. Turn it the other way, it goes in reverse. Electricity doesn't care. The vitality, the living essence, doesn't care whether you think in dualism, stuck in the mind, or anything else. It just goes where the energy or belief goes. But if you question all your beliefs, you'll find belief is only a reference point. It's not the actuality. A belief can never be the actuality. The actuality is this present moment. Presence Awareness. You can't negate it.
Edg writes : Tom, I am a bit iffy on what you're trying to say in your three consecutive posts. Are you supporting my post or finding error or I don't find much to argue with in the quotes you give, but then, I don't have much resonance with the vocabulary, so trying to see what your concepts are is hard for me. Can you take a second go at my post and try to underline what you mean to communicate? Edg TomT; No Problemo. just adding to what you posted. Some may find it an addition and others not so. Just my spice in your soup. Like what you write. I prefer to be a commentator or to find other words that say it better than I. Big company in Rochester made billions in copying things called Xerox. Used to be a client of mine. Sometimes others have said it so well that it is just nice to add that particular viewpoint to the stew of FFlife. As in On the other hand like that,like that.Tom
Loved this flick. Had the dvd and watched all the extras and realized that most of the movie was scripted dirctly from a one hour TV show that was shot in the 70s for Australian TV. You could even see the same dialogue and scene setup. Very interesting study in human life. Tom T
Yes shemp, please, leave sooner rather than later. Tom T
Barry writes snipped: The test of enlightenment, as I see it, is how well you maintain in *all* circumstances and environments, not just the ones you prefer or consider refined and spiritual. I've met yogis who could radiate samadhi consistently in the meeting hall, but who turned into frightened little mice when having to navigate a busy city street. I don't know about you, but that makes me wonder just how established they really were. TomT: I remember reading somewhere that if you wanted to test your awakening go spend a week with either your parents or your kids or both. Sure way to see what is left undone or unresolved.
Judy writes: Rick and most of the others here *like* it that way, nice and bland, minimal spontaneity, minimal interaction, a showcase for those who like to do set pieces, a little of this, a little of that, move on to the next. Criticism of MMY and the TMO along party lines; a bit of tame dissent is OK here and there, as long as it doesn't get in anybody's face. Above all, keep it *safe*. Avoid disturbance at all costs. TomT: Way better than the 50+ posts a day from you on the subject of he said she said 14 lifetimes ago and Judy has the quotes to prove it. You lost your soapbox and no amount of whining or bitching (AKA as harrassing)is going to bring it back. The present volume is readable and enjoyable for those of us who have a life beyond this forum.
Byron Katies newest book as titled above. It is her commentary on the Tao Te CHing all 81 sutras with a chapter for each sutra some short some long.given in an off hand contemporary manner. Excerpt from Chapter 21 The master keeps her mind always at one with the Tao. Page 59 chapter 2 para 2. If my child has died, thats the way of it. Any argument with that brings an eternal hell. 'She died too soon. I didn't get to see her grow up. I could have done something to save her. 'I was a bad mother.' 'God is unjust. But her death is reality. No argument in the world can make the slightest dent in what has already happened. Prayer can't change it, begging and pleading can't change it, punishing yourself can't change it, your will has no power at all. You do have the power, though, to question your thought , turn it around, and find three genuine reasons why the death of your child is equal to her not dying, or even better in the long run, both for her and for you. This takes a radically open mind, and nothing less than an open mind is creative enough to free you from the pain of arguing with what is. An open mind is the only way to peace. As long as you think that you knew what should and shouldn't happen, you're trying to manipulate GOD. This is a recipe for unhappiness. Enjoy TOm T
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Like it or not, the posting limit works, and praise of it is almost unanimous. The 7-post limit is kind of an interesting idea. Any feedback on that? Ken Hassman writes: Yah, if the praise of the 5-post limit is nearly unanimous why not leave it as is-what is two more posts per person going to do? People have done a wonderful job in five posts. KH Tom T writes: Eggzactly. I am very happy with the civility, the consciness and the thought that has gone in to the posts. It is like the difference between two guys haveing a conversation in a bar at 2 AM after way too many beers (pre 5 limit post), and an intelligent conversation over coffee with one of my best friends (status quo now). Much of value is said and noted. Keep it to 5 and see what happens. Tom
Both Cindy and I love to do the square in the evening after a lite meal. When we are here for the weekends we head out to walk around Walden Lake. I also do my daytime walks to attempt to control the battle of the bulge in the same place. An injured knee likes the level walking on the blacktop road. I start at the bottom of the hill, walk up to the clubhouse around the lake and back . A healthy and interesting walk. One Sunday we spotted over 21 species of birds in a half hour walk. Right now the warblers are moving through and are very unique and quite interesting and beautiful. TOm
Find her book Collision with the Infinite and read it. It may be available here at Revelations at half price. Used copies surface from time to time. Very interesting story. She was indoctrinated by her parents to believe if Fear was present then there was someting to be afraid of. Both of her parents were survivors of the German concentration camps. Great study of the acronymn for FEAR from the author of Conversations with God. False Evidence that Appears Real. Tom T
Jim Flanegin writes snipped: Since you see this as myth, why not see it personally, as each of us facing our own Arjuna and Krishna? Facing our Duryodhana, king of the demons, on our battlefield of Kurukshetra? As another possibility, that is the way I interpret the dialogue between Arjuna and Krishna. Tom T: In Jed McKennas book #2 Spiritually Incorrect Enlightenment, He makes the same argument and goes into it in great detail. He also ties that same metaphor to the Moby Dick story. A great read written by one of us. Tom T